808 réponses à ce sujet

[Strange Aeons]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

A race exterminated so that every other race in existence can be free. I'd call that a fair sacrifice.

What if the Starchild said the red ending would genocide mankind instead? Is that still okay?

Yes. The nature of the race was never the point here- it's a case of saving as many lives as possible.

Synthesis violates every single living being in the galaxy. Control operates under the assumption Shepard is qualified to rule over a race of omnipotent space-demons. As far as I'm concerned, the only way to solve the Reaper question is to remove them entirely- they're far too dangerous to remain in existence. If that means exterminating a race to do so, be they Geth, human or whatever, then so be it.

Don't kid yourself: taking it upon yourself to exterminate the Geth is no less of a violation, one that will darken everything that comes after it.  It's a price that's too high to pay.

I'd rather die with honor alongside the Geth than survive in a world ruled by that sort of diabolical calculus.

Modifié par Strange Aeons, 07 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[Village_Idiot]

M0keys wrote...

But then you're agreeing with the Reapers, that annihilating intelligent life to save the rest is actually the way to go. It's just on a slightly smaller scale.

How does the death of one race compare with the death of all intelligent races? It's not pretty, but it's the lesser of two evils. The Reapers are also removed in doing so, preventing their bizzaro-logic from being perpetuated in the future.

[movieguyabw]

None of the endings are very morally acceptable.

[kegNeggs]

scrapmetals wrote...

The kid said Destroy would kill Shepard.

It didn't. So who's to say Destroy killed the Geth?

Zing

[FatalX7.0]

Artking3 wrote...

Vespervin wrote...

Artking3 wrote...

Kill a few million to save a few trillion.

War is about hard choices.

"We are each a nation."

Then don't forget about all the Geth that I gave sentience too and all of the Quarians because of their synthetic implants. Then there's every biotic out there, so most of the Asari are done for. 

I don't think the Asari need implants like human biotics, their biotics seem more like natural abilities. It was a basic class in their schools.

I didn't forget about the Geth, they were sacrificed for the organics. I think the Quarians survived. Tali walked off the Normandy in one piece.

It does seem more likely that Star Child lied about the consequences of your actions. After all, it created the Reapers, and they were not "Beyond our comprehension".

Or, it's just bad writing filled with plot-holes and inconsistencies.

[M0keys]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool

Destroy is like the Renegade option.

You kill the enemy without regard for other synthetic beings, and you can survive in the end.

Seems like something a ruthless kinda guy would do.

Well, except for losing his balls and bowing down to some random hologram.

But then they say, hey, it's the option where you can reunite with your crew and have a happy ending!

Yeah, but if it's for renegades, and you're that kind of renegade, Shepard doesn't give two hoots about his own team. He's like the Operative from Serenity. No compassion for anyone -- only undying servitude to an idea, no matter how flawed it may be.

[EyesOfAmbition2]

Nyxeris wrote...
Genocide is the reason why I didn't pick the destroy ending initially. I was fully set on wiping out the reapers, since I find it better to commit genocide on a race of beings that wants to commit omnicide. However, I couldn't bring myself to kill the Geth, since I'd saved them and Legion (who I really liked) sacrificed himself to give complete sentience. Same with EDI, considering she had evolved to the point where she could have a relationship with an organic. Couldn't do it, so I went with the green ending.

Exactly my thought process. Thank you.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well, if you kill all the reapers, aren't you committing genocide? However, they've committed genocide about 20,000 times, so calling this genocide is moral relativism. I look at it more like pest control. Now starkid throws in the Geth just to make this choice unpalatable to you so that you choose either Control or Synthesis because you don't want to become the monster.

However, look at your body count. You can take the Stalin approach: "The death of one is a tragedy. The deaths of 10,000? A statistic." And use that to pick Destroy and the Geth are collateral damage, considering there is going to be collateral damage anyway and a lot of it. Any ships in close proximity to even the controlled explosions are going to be destroyed killing all aboard which with all the vessels could be in the tens of thousands. What's a few million more? Just another statistic.

Or you could become one with the catalyst and control. But for how long? And what will your choices be? Will you eventually see the galaxy civilizations create a danger and send in the galactic genocidal vacuum cleaners again? So you take away freedom of choice. You now are making choices for others. Who made you god?

Or will you become one with the reapers and synthesize, thus dying for the sins of both -- hence you are now deified as "The Shepard" thousands of years in the future. But then is rewriting the genetic code of every single living being in the galaxy against their free will morally correct? You impose order on chaos for "peace." Who made you god?

The biblical parallel is that when you destroy the reapers you throw the galactic races out of the garden of eden permanently and leave them on their own. You essentially are satan advocating free will over order. The price the starkid imposes here is that the galaxy can't start from where it is. It cannot learn from the lessons it has already learned. It has to start over again from the beginning and rebuild its civilizations so that it repeats the cycle.

All the endings are bad. The game ends for me at the death of Anderson, the attachement of the Crucible to the Citadel, and then cuts to a Youtube fan made video, because no matter what everything from that moment on sucks. This is where Hudson & co fell down on the job.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Robhuzz wrote...

Because BioWare didn't give us another option than to believe the starchild and go along with it.

While I know by now BioWare dislikes logic in their game endings, there's no reason why the crucible red ending should even harm the Geth, let alone destroy them. Sure they've got programming updates that were originally made by the Reapers, but just about every bit of tech in the galaxy is based on reaper tech (Mass effect technology) so if the Geth are destroyed by the ending, ALL tech in the galaxy needs to be destroyed by that ending. That didn't happen. Starkid was either lying or BioWare is just adding another plot hole. But what's one more right?<_<

This, dammit. 

[o Ventus]

Well, EDI can walk out of the Normandy in the destroy ending. Not sure if it's a bug or cutscene magic (Remember Eve firing the Claymore twice with 1 pump?).

Oh, and what the post above me says.

Modifié par o Ventus, 07 avril 2012 - 08:51 .

[FatalX7.0]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But then you're agreeing with the Reapers, that annihilating intelligent life to save the rest is actually the way to go. It's just on a slightly smaller scale.

How does the death of one race compare with the death of all intelligent races? It's not pretty, but it's the lesser of two evils. The Reapers are also removed in doing so, preventing their bizzaro-logic from being perpetuated in the future.

Reapers kill advanced races so we do not create synthetics that kill everyone. They leave the underdeveloped races alone, also saving them from possible synthetic rebellion in the process.

You kill the Geth to save the other races.

Just like he said, it's similar but on a smaller scale.

[M0keys]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But then you're agreeing with the Reapers, that annihilating intelligent life to save the rest is actually the way to go. It's just on a slightly smaller scale.

How does the death of one race compare with the death of all intelligent races?

The death of all intelligent races always gave rise to more intelligent races down the line when the Reapers did it. It never wiped out all life -- just continued an incomprehensibly massive galactic tragedy, where life has no value outside of mathematics. Picking destroy supports that logic.

It's a flawed machine's final solution to the pattern of life, and genocide should never be a pre-requisite to getting an ending where your Shepard re-unites with his team in the extended cut.

[IliaLo]

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool

As I recall, they never sayd, that starchild is right or wrong, they just saying that they keeping the curent ending, which can mean a lot of different things. And I dont understand, how reducing everyone into synthetic-organic thing, is better then killing one race, to save dosens?

[Chrillze]

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool

They are just robots, chill out mang

[Village_Idiot]

Strange Aeons wrote...

Don't kid yourself: taking it upon yourself to exterminate the Geth is no less of a violation, one that will darken everything that comes after it.  It's a price that's too high to pay.

I'd rather die with honor alongside the Geth than survive in a world ruled by that sort of diabolical calculus.

This kind of idealism is nice in principle, but it also results in the entire galaxy being exterminated. I'd say that's a very high price for ill-conceived notions of "honor".

[Genshie]

You guys realize that it has been confirmed already via Twitter that in the extended cut (depending on what you did ect... War assets, previous choices, and end choice) that people don't starve right? Also been said that there is a chance for Shepard to see his crew again.

[JPN17]

Dandynermite wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Dandynermite wrote...

Because it's Bioware its fine.
Your committing genecide if you kill all the reapers too, don't forget that.

Kill all reapers vs kill all organics, really that different in the end?

Um, yes.

In what way? Its one race, with conflicting opinions to the other race, wiping them out to save the races of the future really?

Its exactly the same, kill all reapers is not defence...

Sure it is, because all the reapers are committing genocide as well. Genocide of every advanced species in the galaxy. If some reapers were trying to harvest the galaxy and some weren't but you decided to kill all reapers, then you might have a point.

[JPN17]

Genshie wrote...

You guys realize that it has been confirmed already via Twitter that in the extended cut (depending on what you did ect... War assets, previous choices, and end choice) that people don't starve right? Also been said that there is a chance for Shepard to see his crew again.

I've fallen for Bioware's lies before. Won't believe it until I see it.

[M0keys]

You essentially are satan advocating free will over order.

The funny thing is that Starchild is also satan, 3 temptations and all.

So it's more like you're the anti-satan.

Which really makes you Jesus. Only, you can't reject the options, so you're more like the anti-anti-satan.

Oh, man! my head is spinning!

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Artking3 wrote...

Vespervin wrote...

Artking3 wrote...

Kill a few million to save a few trillion.

War is about hard choices.

"We are each a nation."

Then don't forget about all the Geth that I gave sentience too and all of the Quarians because of their synthetic implants. Then there's every biotic out there, so most of the Asari are done for. 

I don't think the Asari need implants like human biotics, their biotics seem more like natural abilities. It was a basic class in their schools. (Liara walked off my ship/Kaidan walked off my ship. Both biotics. My Shep "Lived", a biotic)

I didn't forget about the Geth. By the quote "We are each a nation", I think Shep had destroyed thousands of "nations" in 3 games.

I think the Quarians survived. Tali walked off the Normandy in one piece.(Tali walked off mine as well)

It does seem more likely that Star Child lied about the consequences of your actions. After all, it created the Reapers, and they were not "Beyond our comprehension".

Whap about the events of Arrival? Shep killed over 300,000 Batarians to give the galaxy 6 months to prepare for the reapers--which was time wasted, in all seriousness. A sacrifice made in absolute vain.

Beside the fact that everybody is looking too far into this, what makes all the other species different than the Geth and Edi? Reproduction, natural reproduction-not factory assembly. Synthetic forms can not reproduce, sure they can gain intelliegence, but what does that matter when they can not truly experience what makes ALL the other "species" in the galaxy special? Real emotion, "HUMANITY" they call it. There is no love; there is a program. All other species are products of nature, natural--organic. The Geth and Edi? They were created. Don't get me started on Edi--she was that rogue VI in Luna in ME1, tried to KILL you. Geth--tried to KILL you. 

[m3mental]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

1. They're robots
2. Even if you want to compare them with an organic race (which is stupid, but let's buy the "omg they're sentient" argument) - One "race" dies so millions others won't be exterminated in the millions of years to come. Greatest bargain in the history of the Galaxy. Sure, it sucks that Geth die, but accepting the deal is a no-brainer.

If you accept what the Catalyst says is true, choosing Destroy will bring all the problems back, and someone will build the Reapers again.

When the startchild says that wiping them out isn´t a solution because new synthetics will be created again and the cycle will start again. Is kinda the same thing as when you talk to Mordin in ME2 about the genophage and he says that tons of tests were made and most of it  pointed towards Krogan being violent and history repeating itself. Which from what we see with Wrex leading his people isn't that likely.
Since the startchild I would guess is an AI or synthetic being would make calculations and say that It all points towards the cycle being repeated.
I might be wrong but atleast its something to think about  

[M0keys]

Chrillze wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool

They are just robots, chill out mang

Did you do the Geth Server mission and watch the clips of how the Geth were before the war? There wasn't a lot of material to work with, but it seemed they genuinely loved the Quarians and didn't understand what the Quarians wanted to kill them so badly.

Unless you're being.. sarcastic? 

[Chrillze]

M0keys wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool

They are just robots, chill out mang

Did you do the Geth Server mission and watch the clips of how the Geth were before the war? There wasn't a lot of material to work with, but it seemed they genuinely loved the Quarians and didn't understand what the Quarians wanted to kill them so badly.

Unless you're being.. sarcastic? 

yeah I know, I played through that mission too. Geth was one of my favourite ''races'' and legion was one of my favourite squadmates but they are still just machines. You doesn't commit murder when you throw away a toaster right?

Modifié par Chrillze, 07 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[Greed1914]

The real question is not why wiping out the Geth lets Shepard live, but why Shepard lives when the kid specifically says, "You're partly synthetic." Shouldn't that mean that Destroy includes Shepard?