808 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

tjc2 wrote...

You could dice roll the ending a little bit. If you have 3999 you have a 99% chance of getting the 4000 ending, if you have 3001 score you have a 1% chance. And then of course after 5000 there is only one ending and under 2500 there is only one ending.

You could do that, but I think that that starts to complicate the issue for possibly not much gain.  The increased complexity potentially leads to bugs, and I think you'd also have people confused when they were to replay their game under the exact same conditions, you can get an alternate ending.  Imagine inviting your friend over to show off an awesome ending, and loading up the save and having it play out in a way that you didn't anticipate.

There's benefits to having predictability and determinism and I think, in general, a lot of fans would agree.

[The Irish Man]

It's not genocide. Killing the Batarians was genocide. Killing synthetics is not genocide in my opinion.

[M0keys]

The Irish Man wrote...

It's not genocide. Killing the Batarians was genocide. Killing synthetics is not genocide in my opinion.

Killing the Batarians wasn't full genocide. They were still around.

And Shepard didn't do it on purpose. At least, mine didn't. I tried to do everything I could to warn them and save them, and the game rejected me at every turn. I don't think you can blame Shepard for what happened.

[tjc2]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

tjc2 wrote...

You could dice roll the ending a little bit. If you have 3999 you have a 99% chance of getting the 4000 ending, if you have 3001 score you have a 1% chance. And then of course after 5000 there is only one ending and under 2500 there is only one ending.

You could do that, but I think that that starts to complicate the issue for possibly not much gain.  The increased complexity potentially leads to bugs, and I think you'd also have people confused when they were to replay their game under the exact same conditions, you can get an alternate ending.  Imagine inviting your friend over to show off an awesome ending, and loading up the save and having it play out in a way that you didn't anticipate.

There's benefits to having predictability and determinism and I think, in general, a lot of fans would agree.

Yeah now that I think about it you are right because it would upset more people than it would appease (I have seen the rage posts on this forum). I personally like the idea that in the end doing the exact same thing doesn't always yield the same result because of the Chaos of things that are not purely scientific. Life is not simply bonding Carbon and Oxygen. 

[Cobra's_back]

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

double post

Totally disagree.Trying to shut someone down for their opinion isn’t going to work. You don’t have to listen, but it is still their opinion.

The Mass Effect Universe confirms it as Genocide, so no opinions really matter, this Topic is not about whether its Genocide or not. End of discussion.

You mean the boy states it. I think Shepard can think for himself. End of discussion never works. Here is what really works.

You can prove your case better if you have a degree in Military law or International law. It also helps a family member or a friend is currently an officer with the Military.

Ya Shepard can think for himself, that is why he states it is Genocide as well, I believe he says this more then once, your case was just proven wrong.

This is a youtube video of the Catalyst Conversation. Shepard does not state it is genocide.

Edit:Really an intended act? It is still Shepards belief. Your evidence is as shallow as the Indoctrination Theory people still believe in.

Question: Do you really talk this way? Does this really help change minds? I'm perfectly fine with my beliefs and you should be fine with yours. Is this really the only way you can communicate? Are you upset? I like to call your attention to the bold comments stated. If you are upset, I’m sorry. Don’t agree with you and I’m not sure why you’re upset.

[M0keys]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
...and I think you'd also have people confused when they were to replay their game under the exact same conditions, you can get an alternate ending.  Imagine inviting your friend over to show off an awesome ending, and loading up the save and having it play out in a way that you didn't anticipate.

I think the scenario you're using here is quite statistically rare, though. How often does this happen with RPGs?

[Jacobcus]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

double post

Totally disagree.Trying to shut someone down for their opinion isn’t going to work. You don’t have to listen, but it is still their opinion.

The Mass Effect Universe confirms it as Genocide, so no opinions really matter, this Topic is not about whether its Genocide or not. End of discussion.

You mean the boy states it. I think Shepard can think for himself. End of discussion never works. Here is what really works.

You can prove your case better if you have a degree in Military law or International law. It also helps a family member or a friend is currently an officer with the Military.

Ya Shepard can think for himself, that is why he states it is Genocide as well, I believe he says this more then once, your case was just proven wrong.

This is a youtube video of the Catalyst Conversation. Shepard does not state it is genocide.

Edit:Really an intended act? It is still Shepards belief. Your evidence is as shallow as the Indoctrination Theory people still believe in.

Question: Do you really talk this way? Does this really help change minds? I'm perfectly fine with my beliefs and you should be fine with yours. Is this really the only way you can communicate? Are you upset? I like to call your attention to the bold comments stated. If you are upset, I’m sorry. Don’t agree with you and I’m not sure why you’re upset.

Really lol? This is your defense now after this whole thing is already over with? I'm not upset in the slightest because this is a fact from the game, clearly  you are though seeing as you keep bringing the subject up when I agreed to disagree.

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

jsadalia wrote...

Nobody knows what happened with any ending. The Catalyst is not infallible and always correct. The very fact that Shepard was able to disrupt his plans is proof of this.

And the little bastard might be lying, anyway.

I'm so tired of this defense of the endings "The catalyst was lying!" "Sovereign was lying!"  "Harbinger was lying!"

So the space cthulu monsters are just pathological liars?  Is that really the answer here?

[M0keys]

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

Nobody knows what happened with any ending. The Catalyst is not infallible and always correct. The very fact that Shepard was able to disrupt his plans is proof of this.

And the little bastard might be lying, anyway.

I'm so tired of this defense of the endings "The catalyst was lying!" "Sovereign was lying!"  "Harbinger was lying!"

So the space cthulu monsters are just pathological liars?  Is that really the answer here?

Can't really know anyway. We never get a chance to look at the Geth after the destroy ending. you can't confirm or deny that the story really ended at all.

[Kanon777]

We know Edi survives the 5k red ending, and so does Shep, this is proof that the Catalyst is either lying or dosent know the full powewr of the Crucible...

[Dranks]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." - Mr. Spock moments before death

[M0keys]

Dranks wrote...

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." - Mr. Spock moments before he heroically sacrificed himself to save everyone.

Fixed that for you.

Modifié par M0keys, 11 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[Cobra's_back]

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Jacobcus wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

double post

Totally disagree.Trying to shut someone down for their opinion isn’t going to work. You don’t have to listen, but it is still their opinion.

The Mass Effect Universe confirms it as Genocide, so no opinions really matter, this Topic is not about whether its Genocide or not. End of discussion.

You mean the boy states it. I think Shepard can think for himself. End of discussion never works. Here is what really works.

You can prove your case better if you have a degree in Military law or International law. It also helps a family member or a friend is currently an officer with the Military.

Ya Shepard can think for himself, that is why he states it is Genocide as well, I believe he says this more then once, your case was just proven wrong.

This is a youtube video of the Catalyst Conversation. Shepard does not state it is genocide.

Edit:Really an intended act? It is still Shepards belief. Your evidence is as shallow as the Indoctrination Theory people still believe in.

Question: Do you really talk this way? Does this really help change minds? I'm perfectly fine with my beliefs and you should be fine with yours. Is this really the only way you can communicate? Are you upset? I like to call your attention to the bold comments stated. If you are upset, I’m sorry. Don’t agree with you and I’m not sure why you’re upset.

Really lol? This is your defense now after this whole thing is already over with? I'm not upset in the slightest because this is a fact from the game, clearly  you are though seeing as you keep bringing the subject up when I agreed to disagree.

Wow. This is not a defense. I don’t need one. I was actually concern about you and your personally feelings and if I upset you. Sorry for the concern.

[Jacobcus]

[/quote]



Wow. This is not a defense. I don’t need one. I was actually concern about you and your personally feelings and if I upset you. Sorry for the concern.[/quote]

Lol it is np, it did not upset me, I think that is physically impossible for a game to do to someone, unless they named there kid after a game character. Edit: I Epicly Failed at snipping post.

Modifié par Jacobcus, 11 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

M0keys wrote...

Dranks wrote...

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one." - Mr. Spock moments before he heroically sacrificed himself to save everyone.

Fixed that for you.

Fixed again. But then Spock was brought back to life by the Genesis device.

I'll also point out Shepard also did it in ME2: Sacrificed herself to save her crew.

How many times does the Jesus ending have to be done?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 11 avril 2012 - 07:38 .

[Alamar2078]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Imagine inviting your friend over to show off an awesome ending, and loading up the save and having it play out in a way that you didn't anticipate.

There's benefits to having predictability and determinism and I think, in general, a lot of fans would agree.

Actually exactly that happens right now.  I played MP to increase my EMS from 3500 to 7000.   After time that 7000 EMS score will degrade back to 3500.  So I can save a game, reload a month later, play through and get a different set of results.

As a matter of fact without an outside app I don't believe it's possible to see the "best" endings

[greggm2000]

M0keys wrote...

The Irish Man wrote...

It's not genocide. Killing the Batarians was genocide. Killing synthetics is not genocide in my opinion.

Killing the Batarians wasn't full genocide. They were still around.

And Shepard didn't do it on purpose. At least, mine didn't. I tried to do everything I could to warn them and save them, and the game rejected me at every turn. I don't think you can blame Shepard for what happened.

One could make the case that killing the Bararians was a mercy killing, not genocide.. the logic being that it was a choice between killing 250k batarians instantly vs. letting the reapers through 10 minutes later, who would then slowly kill 250k batarians + billions more in other systems. Based on that logic, my Shep didn't hesitate at all, though she cursed the universe a little bit, heh!

[M0keys]

I don't think it was a mercy killing. It was a tragedy. I did everything I could to try and save them. They're not destined to die on account of the Reapers, and that was the principal I always held true to as Shepard throughout the series.

Now they're just destined to die due to the developers of the game (which wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't cut out the trial from ME3.)

Maintaining the fourth wall is really important in games like these, otherwise you see the developers directly at work and it blows the illusion of choice.

Modifié par M0keys, 11 avril 2012 - 07:58 .

[AdmLancel]

Weighing in on it, it depends on how much trust you put in the words of holo-kid. If you take everything at face value then Control is, potentially, the more ethical ending. The Reapers are controlled, no one else need die (except Shepard to some degree, though presumably Shepard lives on in some shape as Reaper Command AI), and to some degree you can imagine Shepard allowing the Reapers to continue existing, although they will no longer be allowed to perform their intended function. Nothing stopping the Reapers from getting a hobby. You know, one that doesn't involve genocide. Maybe Harbinger will take up gaming as Reap3r17 and troll noobs with "YOUR DEFEAT IS INEVITABLE" and "THIS HURTS YOU".

I didn't take everything at face value and considered it possibly a bit of a betrayal if I went control now, after the whole trilogy basically said control was a trap set by the Reapers to undermine your defenses. Plus everyone came there to destroy the Reapers and to me the Reapers deserved it. Synthesis then to me was forcing evolution, which didn't seem right either, especially after Shepard makes a small rant about life and stuff. Also seemed like playing into that kid's warped sense of what's right for the world. I just didn't trust a thing that created the Reapers to commit genocide every 50,000 years for the last billion years to save organics from synthetics by melting them down into horrific caricatures of the race to know what was best for life in this galaxy. I can't imagine why. Though the scene with EDI and Joker was sweet.

I'd say the biggest sell for me was knowing that the Reapers were seemingly in some way the collective consciousness of an entire race, and seeing the monster that they had become made me think it better to destroy all the Reapers and set all their souls to rest.

It's still not ironclad moral justification though. Somehow though I still ended up picking it. I just felt like there was too much horror and too much evil in the entire Reaper cycle to allow any of it to continue existing, as if any of it existing meant there would always be a chance of it coming back. Its only redemption seemed to be in utter destruction, such that its reign of terror was ended forever.

I picked Destroy thinking Shepard would die, being partially synthetic.  Shepard didn't, and that actually kinda made me like the ending more, mostly for being a mean guy that likes the notion of Shepard having to live with herself (in my case) after making such decisions.  Death seemed too much like a release.

Feel free to shoot down my ethical opinions on this matter, because I'm really not sold on them yet.

Modifié par AdmLancel, 11 avril 2012 - 08:18 .

[greggm2000]

M0keys wrote...

I don't think it was a mercy killing. It was a tragedy. I did everything I could to try and save them. They're not destined to die on account of the Reapers, and that was the principal I always held true to as Shepard throughout the series.

Now they're just destined to die due to the developers of the game (which wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't cut out the trial from ME3.)

Maintaining the fourth wall is really important in games like these, otherwise you see the developers directly at work and it blows the illusion of choice.

Certainly it was a tragedy. My Shep did everything she could to try and save them too... but it came to a point where they were going to die no matter what, and very very soon, and Shep knew it.... and at least this way their deaths would mean that the rest of the galaxy had a chance at living, including the rest of the Batarian species. It is a horrible position to be in though.

[billida]

i completely ceased to care about all this. All I want is they give us their "clarification", then i will get angry again ("how can you mend, a broooken heaaaart ?), then i will move on to other games with a bitter taste in mouth.

[greggm2000]

AdmLancel wrote...

Weighing in on it, it depends on how much trust you put in the words of holo-kid. If you take everything at face value then Control is, potentially, the more ethical ending. The Reapers are controlled, no one else need die (except Shepard to some degree, though presumably Shepard lives on in some shape as Reaper Command AI), and to some degree you can imagine Shepard allowing the Reapers to continue existing, although they will no longer be allowed to perform their intended function. Nothing stopping the Reapers from getting a hobby. You know, one that doesn't involve genocide. Maybe Harbinger will take up gaming as Reap3r17 and troll noobs with "YOUR DEFEAT IS INEVITABLE" and "THIS HURTS YOU".

I didn't take everything at face value and considered it possibly a bit of a betrayal if I went control now, after the whole trilogy basically said control was a trap set by the Reapers to undermine your defenses. Plus everyone came there to destroy the Reapers and to me the Reapers deserved it. Synthesis then to me was forcing evolution, which didn't seem right either, especially after Shepard makes a small rant about life and stuff. Also seemed like playing into that kid's warped sense of what's right for the world. I just didn't trust a thing that created the Reapers to commit genocide every 50,000 years for the last billion years to save organics from synthetics by melting them down into horrific caricatures of the race to know what was best for life in this galaxy. I can't imagine why. Though the scene with EDI and Joker was sweet.

I'd say the biggest sell for me was knowing that the Reapers were seemingly in some way the collective consciousness of an entire race, and seeing the monster that they had become made me think it better to destroy all the Reapers and set all their souls to rest.

It's still not ironclad moral justification though. Somehow though I still ended up picking it. I just felt like there was too much horror and too much evil in the entire Reaper cycle to allow any of it to continue existing, as if any of it existing meant there would always be a chance of it coming back. Its only redemption seemed to be in utter destruction, such that its reign of terror was ended forever.

I picked Destroy thinking Shepard would die, being partially synthetic.  Shepard didn't, and that actually kinda made me like the ending more, mostly for being a mean guy that likes the notion of Shepard having to live with herself (in my case) after making such decisions.  Death seemed too much like a release.

Feel free to shoot down my ethical opinions on this matter, because I'm really not sold on them yet.

That's much of how I felt too.... though I don't see my Shep feeling guilty about her part in it. She played her hand with the cards she was dealt, and saved as many as she could.

[Auztin]

I chose it because I was going to stop the Reapers no matter the cost.Geth & Edi all knew the cost.Geth,Edi,& Shepard sacrificed ourself for the destruction of the Reapers until Shepard woke up in rubble.

Modifié par Auztinito, 11 avril 2012 - 08:39 .

[Nayt Navare]

I honestly don't blame my Shepard for this; He honestly doesn't care, to a point, in that if thee Destroy the Reapers would have killed all humans, he STILL would have done it. The Repears are too dangerous to continue, and they are too bloodied to ever be redeem. They must be stopped. He'd be upset at the loss of EDI, and the Geth, but in his mind, he isn't fighting for them, he's fighting for everyone. Every species who died, every species who lives, and every one that still may.

[Bill Casey]

It's important to keep in mind that the other two choices were,

- "try to control all of the reapers everywhere even though you just shot Anderson against your will a minute ago, and every ally in the game tells you trying to control the reapers is completely insane."

And...

- "Do what the reapers have been doing, only do it to everything. This comes with the promise of peace, but to ensure something like that would require removal of free will"


So genocide is actually the least ****ty option the game gives you...
And it turns out Shepard and EDI at least are fine in the Destroy ending, so the Bratalyst is a liar...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 avril 2012 - 09:10 .