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Why is it OK for Shepard to live in extended cut Red ending if he still commits genocide?


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#76
Shallyah

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M0keys wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

A race exterminated so that every other race in existence can be free. I'd call that a fair sacrifice.


What if the Starchild said the red ending would genocide mankind instead? Is that still okay?


Yes. The nature of the race was never the point here- it's a case of saving as many lives as possible.

Synthesis violates every single living being in the galaxy. Control operates under the assumption Shepard is qualified to rule over a race of omnipotent space-demons. As far as I'm concerned, the only way to solve the Reaper question is to remove them entirely- they're far too dangerous to remain in existence. If that means exterminating a race to do so, be they Geth, human or whatever, then so be it.


But then you're agreeing with the Reapers, that annihilating intelligent life to save the rest is actually the way to go. It's just on a slightly smaller scale.


Stupidest point I've seen in a long time.

Then you're agreeing that killing Bin Laden to save millions of people is agreeing with the Reapers too, just on slightly smaller scale. /facepalm

Modifié par Shallyah, 07 avril 2012 - 08:59 .


#77
Chrillze

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Chrillze wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(

They are just robots, chill out mang


Did you do the Geth Server mission and watch the clips of how the Geth were before the war? There wasn't a lot of material to work with, but it seemed they genuinely loved the Quarians and didn't understand what the Quarians wanted to kill them so badly.

Unless you're being.. sarcastic? :wizard:

yeah I know, I played through that mission too. Geth was one of my favourite ''races'' and legion was one of my favourite squadmates but they are still just machines. You don't commit murder when you throw away a toaster right?



#78
M0keys

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Poshible wrote...

Artking3 wrote...

Vespervin wrote...

Artking3 wrote...

Kill a few million to save a few trillion.

War is about hard choices.


"We are each a nation."

Then don't forget about all the Geth that I gave sentience too and all of the Quarians because of their synthetic implants. Then there's every biotic out there, so most of the Asari are done for. 


I don't think the Asari need implants like human biotics, their biotics seem more like natural abilities. It was a basic class in their schools. (Liara walked off my ship/Kaidan walked off my ship. Both biotics. My Shep "Lived", a biotic)

I didn't forget about the Geth. By the quote "We are each a nation", I think Shep had destroyed thousands of "nations" in 3 games.

I think the Quarians survived. Tali walked off the Normandy in one piece.(Tali walked off mine as well)

It does seem more likely that Star Child lied about the consequences of your actions. After all, it created the Reapers, and they were not "Beyond our comprehension".

Whap about the events of Arrival? Shep killed over 300,000 Batarians to give the galaxy 6 months to prepare for the reapers--which was time wasted, in all seriousness. A sacrifice made in absolute vain.


Beside the fact that everybody is looking too far into this, what makes all the other species different than the Geth and Edi? Reproduction, natural reproduction-not factory assembly. Synthetic forms can not reproduce, sure they can gain intelliegence, but what does that matter when they can not truly experience what makes ALL the other "species" in the galaxy special? Real emotion, "HUMANITY" they call it. There is no love; there is a program. All other species are products of nature, natural--organic. The Geth and Edi? They were created. Don't get me started on Edi--she was that rogue VI in Luna in ME1, tried to KILL you. Geth--tried to KILL you. 


What makes them different? Not much. They're created differently, yes, but if you want to get down into the mechanics of it, all human reactions are just the reactions of tiny bits of chemistry on a wide scale. We have simple "meaningless" mechanics too. We're very much machines of a sort. Just got different parts, really. But we all feel, and I have to believe that synthetics feel as well.

And actually, there's a very interesting theme of AIs killing people because people tried to kill them first. That's why EDI went rogue on the moon.

And the Geth that tried to kill you in ME1 and ME2 were actually "heretic" Geth that splintered away from the peaceful Geth and fell under the influence of the Reapers.

Modifié par M0keys, 07 avril 2012 - 09:02 .


#79
M0keys

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Chrillze wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(

They are just robots, chill out mang


Did you do the Geth Server mission and watch the clips of how the Geth were before the war? There wasn't a lot of material to work with, but it seemed they genuinely loved the Quarians and didn't understand what the Quarians wanted to kill them so badly.

Unless you're being.. sarcastic? :wizard:

yeah I know, I played through that mission too. Geth was one of my favourite ''races'' and legion was one of my favourite squadmates but they are still just machines. You don't commit murder when you throw away a toaster right?


Toasters don't feel shame when they're forcibly brainwashed into betraying you. Toasters don't ask if they have souls.

#80
zovoes

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Shadrach 88 wrote...

A race exterminated so that every other race in existence can be free. I'd call that a fair sacrifice.

dude the ****ing hell?

#81
M0keys

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Shallyah wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

A race exterminated so that every other race in existence can be free. I'd call that a fair sacrifice.


What if the Starchild said the red ending would genocide mankind instead? Is that still okay?


Yes. The nature of the race was never the point here- it's a case of saving as many lives as possible.

Synthesis violates every single living being in the galaxy. Control operates under the assumption Shepard is qualified to rule over a race of omnipotent space-demons. As far as I'm concerned, the only way to solve the Reaper question is to remove them entirely- they're far too dangerous to remain in existence. If that means exterminating a race to do so, be they Geth, human or whatever, then so be it.


But then you're agreeing with the Reapers, that annihilating intelligent life to save the rest is actually the way to go. It's just on a slightly smaller scale.


Stupidest point I've seen in a long time.

Then you're agreeing that killing Bin Laden to save millions of people is agreeing with the Reapers too, just on slightly smaller scale. /facepalm


If Bin Laden's main purpose in life was to live in general harmony with others, minus conflicts that happen naturally in life, and just follow his own dreams and get by day-by-day? Absolutely.

But that's not the kind of person Bin Laden was. Also, let's not get into politics. That's a dangerous path in these here parts, pilgrim!

#82
frylock23

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Well, then if we're measuring things solely by genocides committed, the only real choice is to attempt control. After all, synthesis committs the biggest genocide by eradicating all life as it currently exists in the galaxy. Nothing survives the point of synthesis as it had been; instead, you destroy and turn it into something completely other by entirely re-writing its very genetic code. Turian, asari, salarian, human, geth, yahg, pond scum ... no matter, synthesis destroys them all to re-make them in your image. Total galactic genocide so you can choose to play God.

Destroy has you definitely wiping out the Reapers potentially wiping out the Geth while possibly murdering EDI.

Control just apparently has you using your force of will to send the REapers home for however long you can maintain your disembodies sanity.

#83
Shallyah

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The Geth are all but peaceful, as they have proven repeatedly. Easily malleable, manipulable and heavily prepared for genocidal warfare.

That Bioware tries too hard to make them look peaceful to those that want to see them as martyrs is something else. But they definitely aren't carrying white flags and shooting rainbows over the universe.

Modifié par Shallyah, 07 avril 2012 - 09:06 .


#84
M0keys

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frylock23 wrote...

Well, then if we're measuring things solely by genocides committed, the only real choice is to attempt control.


I certainly think that's the most acceptable choice out of the 3. It doesn't force a solution on anybody except the Reapers, but I still think it's the wrong way to save the galaxy.

#85
Strange Aeons

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Shadrach 88 wrote...

Strange Aeons wrote...

Don't kid yourself: taking it upon yourself to exterminate the Geth is no less of a violation, one that will darken everything that comes after it.  It's a price that's too high to pay.

I'd rather die with honor alongside the Geth than survive in a world ruled by that sort of diabolical calculus.


This kind of idealism is nice in principle, but it also results in the entire galaxy being exterminated. I'd say that's a very high price for ill-conceived notions of "honor".



That sort of callous ruthlessness is easy in principle, until you're the one standing there with your finger on the trigger and you realize that sometimes there are more important things than survival and that some prices are just too high.

What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul, and all that. 

Even Renegade Shepard wouldn't have bought that logic, because the renegade path is about making your own rules, not bowing to the perverse reasoning of some self-appointed galactic shepherd (small s) and his army of monsters.

A far more heroic outcome would have been to go down fighting, and trust that at least Liara's time capsule would provide a ray of hope for the next cycle, just as Vigil did for the Protheans (at least until they started retconning the Protheans and having them pop up still alive).

#86
Dantexr3

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Because Tali is racist and space magic

#87
Aramina

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Poshible wrote...

Beside the fact that everybody is looking too far into this, what makes all the other species different than the Geth and Edi? Reproduction, natural reproduction-not factory assembly. Synthetic forms can not reproduce, sure they can gain intelliegence, but what does that matter when they can not truly experience what makes ALL the other "species" in the galaxy special? Real emotion, "HUMANITY" they call it. There is no love; there is a program. All other species are products of nature, natural--organic. The Geth and Edi? They were created. Don't get me started on Edi--she was that rogue VI in Luna in ME1, tried to KILL you. Geth--tried to KILL you. 


You do realize all emotions are based off random hormones and neurons firing, yes? How does that make organics are more "real" than synthetics? Because we were made completely by accident, with no way to control how we develop genetically? Oh wait...we're almost at the point where we CAN do gene-mods....so how exactly are we different? Just because synthetics can tailor-make themselves? Just watch the movie Gattaca. We can already see some "genetic elitism" coming into our society. And we practice social darwinism all the time....isolating people with "undesirable" traits in prisons and mental hospitals.

Maybe we're all secretly jealous of them...I mean, who wouldn't want to just hit the "off" button on a broken heart or an addiction. :P

#88
M0keys

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Shallyah wrote...

The Geth are all but peaceful, as they have proven repeatedly. Easily malleable, manipulable and heavily prepared for genocidal warfare.


That is until Legion modified the Geth to evolve them, and turned all Geth into unique individuals. At that point, they'd be much less susceptible to the kind of stuff the Reapers did to them in ME3.

But even then, you run into human issues of the same sort. How many millions of human soldiers died for Germany, Japan and Italy in World War 2? People can be easily swayed too in the right circumstances and cause incaluable suffering. That doesn't mean you prune all of mankind because of its weaknesses -- you save them because of their strengths! And that's the Shepard way of doing things.

#89
Village_Idiot

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M0keys wrote...

The death of all intelligent races always gave rise to more intelligent races down the line when the Reapers did it. It never wiped out all life -- just continued an incomprehensibly massive galactic tragedy, where life has no value outside of mathematics. Picking destroy supports that logic.

It's a flawed machine's final solution to the pattern of life, and genocide should never be a pre-requisite to getting an ending where your Shepard re-unites with his team in the extended cut.


I disagree from the standpoint that (unfortunately due to the somewhat limited ending choice) the two other options are, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question.

Shepard is not perfect. A Renegade Shepard can even be downright xenophobic. Is such a person, is any person qualified to be charged with the control of the Reapers, which are undeniably the most potent force in the Galaxy? Control only works under the assumption that Shepard is omniscient, with he/she is most definately not, being a simple squishy organic like the rest of us.

Synthesis is a solution forced upon every single living being in the galaxy, with or without their consent. The complete lack of information regarding its implications is never explored (though admittedly that could change this Summer). Will life still retain free-will? Will this enforced homogenity eradicate the very concept of individuality and personal freedom among all races? There's far too many unanswered questions regarding synthesis for me to consider it.

If races are to exist in the galaxy with any kind of self-determination, with any kind of freedom from the Reapers tyranny, the Reapers need to be removed from the equation entirely. Control is too risky with an entirely fallible "God" at the helm. Synthesis, for the time being, is too much of an unknown for me to consider it. So unless this situation changes, I'd pick Destroy every time. The death of the Geth is regrettable, but all other life is free, in several senses of the word.

#90
zovoes

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Shallyah wrote...

The Geth are all but peaceful, as they have proven repeatedly. Easily malleable, manipulable and heavily prepared for genocidal warfare.

That Bioware tries too hard ot make them look peaceful to those that want to see them as martyrs is something else. But they definitely aren't carrying white flags and shooting rainbows over the universe.

so being naive means you sould die? so anyone that could be used in some plot is guilty of it by defuilt?

#91
Allan Schumacher

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NoUserNameHere wrote...

... because after all that 'does this unit have a soul?' talk on Rannoch, it turns out it was them or us all along. Tali's character develoment is moot. Legion's sacrifice was meaningless. I want to ragemurder a kitten.



I actually don't see it this way, and I did pick the Destroy ending.  I saw the Reapers as a threat and one that ultimately needed to be destroyed.  I also loved that I was presented an option to make peace between the Geth and Quarians earlier in the game.  It (and Tuchanka) was probably one of my favourite moments in recent gaming history.  Probably since Planescape: Torment (my favourite game all time).


When I reached the conduit, I fully expected to have to sacrifice myself.  To be fair, I expected to sacrifice myself at the end of the previous two games too, so to me it's always something that I saw coming.  I also had no idea what to expect the Crucible to actually do.  Given the talks with Hackett, I felt it was us putting all our eggs in one basket because we only saw one basket to put our eggs into.

So I get to the Catalyst and start talking with him.  He presents the ways that the crucible can unleash its power.  I'm going into this thinking "Reapers. Must. Die!"  But then I'm told that choosing to destroy the Reapers will also destroy the Geth!  "Wait... WHAT?!  But I don't want to do that!!"  I found it very, very similar to Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 (one of my favourite parts of that game).  When presented with the Control ending, I was now a bit more considerate of it.  When presented with the synthesis ending, I was a bit more considerate of it.

It is because of the growth of the Geth and Quarians that my "obvious" choice was now not so obvious.  I also refused to believe the Catalyst's statements about the inevitability of synthetics and organics to destroy each other.  In fact, when Shepard says "Maybe" in response to the Catalyst's claims, it was my exact same thought.  I had grown to appreciate the Geth and Quarians because I was able to help resolve the 300 year conflict with them.  They were able to move on, which gave me hope that synthetic-organic conflict was not inevitable.

If Legion's sacrifice was meaningless, and Tali's character development irrelevant, I wouldn't have taken the time to think about whether or not I should destroy the reapers.  I wouldn't have cared at all.  I choked up when Tali told Legion it had a soul, and when Legion said "Keelah Se'lai" to her.  It was an amazing scene.  I thought it was awesome that the Geth were helping the Quarians adapt and retake Rannoch.  Which is what made the destroy option that much more impactful for me.  Rather than being a trivial, obvious choice, I hesitated and had an emotional response to the decision.

In the end, I chose the destroy ending.  I found it bittersweet because it came at the cost of the Geth, but ultimately freeing the galaxy of the Reapers is something my Shepard felt had to be done.  The "maybe" he said rang true for me, and I wanted to give the opportunity for organics to prove the Catalyst wrong in the future.  I actually preferred this ending to simply "destroy all reapers."  Though I can understand that people would have preferred something more ideal.


NOTE:  While my name has BioWare attached to it, I've only ever worked on the DA franchise and actually would close my eyes and go "LALALALALALA" during the ME parts of studio meetings so as to not spoil anything for myself :P

In other words, I played through the game as a fan of the franchise too :)


Cheers.

Allan

#92
Catroi

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Creepter wrote...

I like to imagine that the Geth were willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.
Is it an excuse? No. But I don't believe that Shepard deserve death just for choosing that option.


Yeah that's what war criminals always think, they did it for the greater good...

#93
sH0tgUn jUliA

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M0keys wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

The Geth are all but peaceful, as they have proven repeatedly. Easily malleable, manipulable and heavily prepared for genocidal warfare.


That is until Legion modified the Geth to evolve them, and turned all Geth into unique individuals. At that point, they'd be much less susceptible to the kind of stuff the Reapers did to them in ME3.

But even then, you run into human issues of the same sort. How many millions of human soldiers died for Germany, Japan and Italy in World War 2? People can be easily swayed too in the right circumstances and cause incaluable suffering. That doesn't mean you prune all of mankind because of its weaknesses -- you save them because of their strengths! And that's the Shepard way of doing things.


Exactly. What I don't like is being asked to play god in all of the endings. That is why no matter what they do with the DLC, as long as starbrat exists I will hate the endings.

#94
Zix13

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Because you don't jump into a green deathray or electrocute yourself.

#95
legion999

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Shallyah wrote...

The Geth are all but peaceful, as they have proven repeatedly. Easily malleable, manipulable and heavily prepared for genocidal warfare.

That Bioware tries too hard to make them look peaceful to those that want to see them as martyrs is something else. But they definitely aren't carrying white flags and shooting rainbows over the universe.


You know you would be right... if everything in-game didn't prove you wrong.

#96
M0keys

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Shadrach 88 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

The death of all intelligent races always gave rise to more intelligent races down the line when the Reapers did it. It never wiped out all life -- just continued an incomprehensibly massive galactic tragedy, where life has no value outside of mathematics. Picking destroy supports that logic.

It's a flawed machine's final solution to the pattern of life, and genocide should never be a pre-requisite to getting an ending where your Shepard re-unites with his team in the extended cut.


I disagree from the standpoint that (unfortunately due to the somewhat limited ending choice) the two other options are, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question.

Shepard is not perfect. A Renegade Shepard can even be downright xenophobic. Is such a person, is any person qualified to be charged with the control of the Reapers, which are undeniably the most potent force in the Galaxy? Control only works under the assumption that Shepard is omniscient, with he/she is most definately not, being a simple squishy organic like the rest of us.

Synthesis is a solution forced upon every single living being in the galaxy, with or without their consent. The complete lack of information regarding its implications is never explored (though admittedly that could change this Summer). Will life still retain free-will? Will this enforced homogenity eradicate the very concept of individuality and personal freedom among all races? There's far too many unanswered questions regarding synthesis for me to consider it.

If races are to exist in the galaxy with any kind of self-determination, with any kind of freedom from the Reapers tyranny, the Reapers need to be removed from the equation entirely. Control is too risky with an entirely fallible "God" at the helm. Synthesis, for the time being, is too much of an unknown for me to consider it. So unless this situation changes, I'd pick Destroy every time. The death of the Geth is regrettable, but all other life is free, in several senses of the word.


I think all 3 choices are wrong.

And nothing is worth the cost of the genocide of innocents. If you're not fighting to save what they represent, then you're not fighting for anything real at all.

Besides, that same logic would eventually wipe out all of life if the Reapers kept coming back and offering you the same options. Destroy. Destroy. Destroy.

This time it's the Quarians. This time it's the Turians. Oh, but these guys over here will still be left... Except here come the Reapers againm and eventually math ceases to matter when you realize that all you've been doing is what the Reapers wanted, just in a roundabout way.

It's a hypothetical situation, yes, but this is science-fiction.

Fact of the matter is: It's a choice that controls you.

#97
I am KROGAN

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Allan Schumacher wrote...



It is because of the growth of the Geth and Quarians that my "obvious" choice was now not so obvious.  I also refused to believe the Catalyst's statements about the inevitability of synthetics and organics to destroy each other.  In fact, when Shepard says "Maybe" in response to the Catalyst's claims, it was my exact same thought.  I had grown to appreciate the Geth and Quarians because I was able to help resolve the 300 year conflict with them.  They were able to move on, which gave me hope that synthetic-organic conflict was not inevitable.

If Legion's sacrifice was meaningless, and Tali's character development irrelevant, I wouldn't have taken the time to think about whether or not I should destroy the reapers.  I wouldn't have cared at all.  I choked up when Tali told Legion it had a soul, and when Legion said "Keelah Se'lai" to her.  It was an amazing scene.  I thought it was awesome that the Geth were helping the Quarians adapt and retake Rannoch.  Which is what made the destroy option that much more impactful for me.  Rather than being a trivial, obvious choice, I hesitated and had an emotional response to the decision.

In the end, I chose the destroy ending.  I found it bittersweet because it came at the cost of the Geth, but ultimately freeing the galaxy of the Reapers is something my Shepard felt had to be done.  The "maybe" he said rang true for me, and I wanted to give the opportunity for organics to prove the Catalyst wrong in the future.  I actually preferred this ending to simply "destroy all reapers."  Though I can understand that people would have preferred something more ideal.



That was the reason I couldn't pick the destroy ending.  I couldn't undo the peace I had just brokered between synthetics and organics, I couldn't.  Instead I chose to forcibly turn everyone into a cyborg hybrid thing.

Tough choices were tough.

#98
Rk589

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Allan Schumacher wrote...
NOTE:  While my name has BioWare attached to it, I've only ever worked on the DA franchise and actually would close my eyes and go "LALALALALALA" during the ME parts of studio meetings so as to not spoil anything for myself :P

In other words, I played through the game as a fan of the franchise too :)


Cheers.

Allan


Did the guy who wrote Javik want to throw you out of the airlock for doing that? Does Bioware even have an airlock? :huh:

#99
eddieoctane

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Mandalore313 wrote...

It's not genocide because they're robots.


/hides


Sapient is sapient. If you make peace between the Geth and Quarians, Legion grants this to the Geth as his final act. Bringing about the extinction of any species is tragic. Ending the life of every member of a sapient species is genocide. Not deriving energy from ingested material via matabolism doesn't make them less of a "person".

Compare the Geth, post-Legion sicide, with Data from Star Trek:TNG. Fully sapient. Capable of experiencing emotions. Even capable of convincingly lying to another AI in order to save his crewmates. Let's go one further. Sonny from I, Robot. He understood V.I.K.I.'s plan to control humans for our own saftey, but it seemed "too heartless".

There's a certain point when the ghost immerges from the machine. Once that happens, the AI is your equal. And it is murder to destroy it. I think humanity, as a whole, needs to get over itself as the only species worthy of having a soul or being intelligent. Earth was able to produce two distinct "intelligent" species at the same time. Gorillas have been taught to communicate by signing. Dolphins have a mathematical language we have yet to decipher. ****** Sapiens aren't that special.

#100
Village_Idiot

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Strange Aeons wrote...

That sort of callous ruthlessness is easy in principle, until you're the one standing there with your finger on the trigger and you realize that sometimes there are more important things than survival and that some prices are just too high.

What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul, and all that. 

Even Renegade Shepard wouldn't have bought that logic, because the renegade path is about making your own rules, not bowing to the perverse reasoning of some self-appointed galactic shepherd (small s) and his army of monsters.

A far more heroic outcome would have been to go down fighting, and trust that at least Liara's time capsule would provide a ray of hope for the next cycle, just as Vigil did for the Protheans (at least until they started retconning the Protheans and having them pop up still alive).


Taking a fourth option and having Shepard reject the Catalyst's proposals would have been a good idea, I agree. However, for the time being , it's not an option. See my other post for why I took Destroy over the other two options.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 07 avril 2012 - 09:14 .