808 réponses à ce sujet

[FatalX7.0]

legion999 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

The Geth are all but peaceful, as they have proven repeatedly. Easily malleable, manipulable and heavily prepared for genocidal warfare.

That Bioware tries too hard to make them look peaceful to those that want to see them as martyrs is something else. But they definitely aren't carrying white flags and shooting rainbows over the universe.

You know you would be right... if everything in-game didn't prove you wrong.

I felt really bad for the Geth when the Quarians tried to kill them.

They didn't want to fight back, they even tried to protect other Quarians. That one strapped to the table, frantically asking if it had done something wrong, saying it would change.

Kinda made me hate the Quarians. A lot.

[VonVerrikan]

 You kill 300,000 batarians and nobody even seems to care, yourself included! And you think killing the geth matters?

[The Angry One]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

... because after all that 'does this unit have a soul?' talk on Rannoch, it turns out it was them or us all along. Tali's character develoment is moot. Legion's sacrifice was meaningless. I want to ragemurder a kitten.

I actually don't see it this way, and I did pick the Destroy ending.  I saw the Reapers as a threat and one that ultimately needed to be destroyed.  I also loved that I was presented an option to make peace between the Geth and Quarians earlier in the game.  It (and Tuchanka) was probably one of my favourite moments in recent gaming history.  Probably since Planescape: Torment (my favourite game all time).


When I reached the conduit, I fully expected to have to sacrifice myself.  To be fair, I expected to sacrifice myself at the end of the previous two games too, so to me it's always something that I saw coming.  I also had no idea what to expect the Crucible to actually do.  Given the talks with Hackett, I felt it was us putting all our eggs in one basket because we only saw one basket to put our eggs into.

So I get to the Catalyst and start talking with him.  He presents the ways that the crucible can unleash its power.  I'm going into this thinking "Reapers. Must. Die!"  But then I'm told that choosing to destroy the Reapers will also destroy the Geth!  "Wait... WHAT?!  But I don't want to do that!!"  I found it very, very similar to Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 (one of my favourite parts of that game).  When presented with the Control ending, I was now a bit more considerate of it.  When presented with the synthesis ending, I was a bit more considerate of it.

It is because of the growth of the Geth and Quarians that my "obvious" choice was now not so obvious.  I also refused to believe the Catalyst's statements about the inevitability of synthetics and organics to destroy each other.  In fact, when Shepard says "Maybe" in response to the Catalyst's claims, it was my exact same thought.  I had grown to appreciate the Geth and Quarians because I was able to help resolve the 300 year conflict with them.  They were able to move on, which gave me hope that synthetic-organic conflict was not inevitable.

If Legion's sacrifice was meaningless, and Tali's character development irrelevant, I wouldn't have taken the time to think about whether or not I should destroy the reapers.  I wouldn't have cared at all.  I choked up when Tali told Legion it had a soul, and when Legion said "Keelah Se'lai" to her.  It was an amazing scene.  I thought it was awesome that the Geth were helping the Quarians adapt and retake Rannoch.  Which is what made the destroy option that much more impactful for me.  Rather than being a trivial, obvious choice, I hesitated and had an emotional response to the decision.

In the end, I chose the destroy ending.  I found it bittersweet because it came at the cost of the Geth, but ultimately freeing the galaxy of the Reapers is something my Shepard felt had to be done.  The "maybe" he said rang true for me, and I wanted to give the opportunity for organics to prove the Catalyst wrong in the future.  I actually preferred this ending to simply "destroy all reapers."  Though I can understand that people would have preferred something more ideal.


NOTE:  While my name has BioWare attached to it, I've only ever worked on the DA franchise and actually would close my eyes and go "LALALALALALA" during the ME parts of studio meetings so as to not spoil anything for myself

In other words, I played through the game as a fan of the franchise too


Cheers.

Allan

Yeah so basically the entire struggle of the Geth and Quarians comes down to making your choice to kill the Reapers a choice you might not want to pick.
That, by definition, makes everything you've done irrelevant, because the only way to save your hard work is to let the Reapers win (I believe the Reapers win even in destroy, but that's another matter).

Sorry, that's just crap storytelling. The Reapers are essentially holding the Geth hostage.
Shepard would never, never capitulate to this kind of crass ultimatum.

[Village_Idiot]

M0keys wrote...

I think all 3 choices are wrong.

I agree. But they're all we've got, so I'm working with them. Destroy is the best choice in my opinion.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

VonVerrikan wrote...

 You kill 300,000 batarians and nobody even seems to care, yourself included! And you think killing the geth matters?

Exactly. You care more about robots than Batarians.

[legion999]

Rk589 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
NOTE:  While my name has BioWare attached to it, I've only ever worked on the DA franchise and actually would close my eyes and go "LALALALALALA" during the ME parts of studio meetings so as to not spoil anything for myself

In other words, I played through the game as a fan of the franchise too


Cheers.

Allan

Did the guy who wrote Javik want to throw you out of the airlock for doing that? Does Bioware even have an airlock? 

Sort of. This is what happens.

[The Angry One]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

VonVerrikan wrote...

 You kill 300,000 batarians and nobody even seems to care, yourself included! And you think killing the geth matters?

Exactly. You care more about robots than Batarians.

300,000 Batarians =! all Batarians everywhere.

[Dandynermite]

Your still all ignoring the fact killing the reapers is also Genocide! Just because they are one the other team doesn't make them any less of a "being" than the Geth!

[M0keys]

VonVerrikan wrote...

 You kill 300,000 batarians and nobody even seems to care, yourself included! And you think killing the geth matters?

This was an interesting moral quandary, and would've served as an excellent character study had the consequences not been cut out of ME3 for pacing issues.

And believe me, I did my damndest to try and warn the Batarians, but the game interrupted me at every turn. I'd never seen a good Batarian before, but knowing how life works, I knew they must've been out there somewhere, and even most "bad people" can redeem themselves. I kinda hated myself for what I did, but at that choice all my options to save them had been squelched and I was rendered helpless.

I would've been very happy to go through a full trial scene to deal with Shepard's demons.

[FatalX7.0]

VonVerrikan wrote...

 You kill 300,000 batarians and nobody even seems to care, yourself included! And you think killing the geth matters?

Did I do that directly?


I never did Arrival.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 07 avril 2012 - 09:18 .

[mumwaldee369]

Someone shoop a Mass Murderer 3 icon.

[Madecologist]

What happens if you couldn't make peace and sided with the Quarians... then the only Synthetics you kill is Rogue Geth with only Reaper Code in them and the Reapers.

I doubt the Galaxy will see this as a crime...

Modifié par Madecologist, 07 avril 2012 - 09:19 .

[Aramina]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

VonVerrikan wrote...

 You kill 300,000 batarians and nobody even seems to care, yourself included! And you think killing the geth matters?

Exactly. You care more about robots than Batarians.

Yeah, that wasn't really played well in the game. I as a player was upset that I had to wipe out a whole colony (though I'll admit, not as upset as if it had been, say, Turians or Asari...I didn't have a good impression of Batarians at that point). My Femshep on the other hand..."Well, someone had to make the tough choice! And it was to delay the Reapers!" Kinda weird that she was more upset about Thessia, something she didn't directly cause, than she was about blowing up a Mass Relay and wiping out a colony....

[CronoDragoon]

Dandynermite wrote...

Your still all ignoring the fact killing the reapers is also Genocide! Just because they are one the other team doesn't make them any less of a "being" than the Geth!

You don't know what genocide means. It doesn't mean "killing every member of a race/species." It means killing them because they belong to that race/species. No one is killing the Reapers because they belong to the Reaper race. They are doing it because THE REAPERS ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL.

[Dresden867]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

VonVerrikan wrote...

 You kill 300,000 batarians and nobody even seems to care, yourself included! And you think killing the geth matters?

Exactly. You care more about robots than Batarians.

Happily. Geth haven't actively engaged in slavery against my species.

[legion999]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

The Geth are all but peaceful, as they have proven repeatedly. Easily malleable, manipulable and heavily prepared for genocidal warfare.

That Bioware tries too hard to make them look peaceful to those that want to see them as martyrs is something else. But they definitely aren't carrying white flags and shooting rainbows over the universe.

You know you would be right... if everything in-game didn't prove you wrong.

I felt really bad for the Geth when the Quarians tried to kill them.

They didn't want to fight back, they even tried to protect other Quarians. That one strapped to the table, frantically asking if it had done something wrong, saying it would change.

Kinda made me hate the Quarians. A lot.

When I saw the Quarians beat and murder their own people for attempting to save the Geth my pity for them nearly hit absolute zero.

[Chrillze]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dandynermite wrote...

Your still all ignoring the fact killing the reapers is also Genocide! Just because they are one the other team doesn't make them any less of a "being" than the Geth!

You don't know what genocide means. It doesn't mean "killing every member of a race/species." It means killing them because they belong to that race/species. No one is killing the Reapers because they belong to the Reaper race. They are doing it because THE REAPERS ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL.

nobody is killing the geth just because they are geth, they are killing the geth because that's the only way to destroy the reapers. 

[The Angry One]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

I think all 3 choices are wrong.

I agree. But they're all we've got, so I'm working with them. Destroy is the best choice in my opinion.

Destroy = Reapers win. Galaxy destroyed.
Control = Reapers win. Galaxy destroyed.
Synthesis = Reapers win. Galaxy destroyed.

Yes, Destroy = Reapers winning.
You see, the 3 endings are merely different flavours of Reaper victory.
In Control, Reapers remain as they are. In Synthesis, everybody becomes a Reaper. In Destroy, the Catalyst's agenda is followed to it's ultimate, brutal conclusion - the destruction of all synthetic life everywhere.
Even then it condescends to you, and predicts that the cycle will begin anew someday.

As I've said elsewhere, much like a psychopath will kill a bunch of people then shoot themselves, the Catalyst chooses the exact circumstances and methods of it's death. It remains in control.

[M0keys]

Dandynermite wrote...

Your still all ignoring the fact killing the reapers is also Genocide! Just because they are one the other team doesn't make them any less of a "being" than the Geth!

I don't think Reapers count. They've dedicated themselvees to the constant monstrous erradication of all life in the long stretch, and have proven it with their unthinkably evil actions. They are un-life, and I have no problems removing them from existence.

Now, if there was a (admittedly somewhat silly in theory) sub-plot of the one Reaper who rebelled against that sort of thing, yeah, I'd definitely have second thoughts about the destruction of all Reapers, just like I had second (And third and fourth) thoughts about the destroy ending wiping out the Geth and killing EDI because of how their actions showed me that AIs do not exist to destroy life. All things I had seen in the game, no matter their nature, were a counter-point to the Reapers. They all showed that the Reapers truly are something beyond what we know as life, and do not factor into the "paragon hero principles" equation.

[Jacobcus]

It make's sense that Shepard would live in Renegade ending. Your evil and don't care so you will survive, the purpose of Paragon in nearly every game is self sacrifice.

[Strange Aeons]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Taking a fourth option and having Shepard reject the Catalyst's proposals would have been a good idea, I agree. However, for the time being , it's not an option. See my other post for why I took Destroy over the other two options.

Heh.

Well, you could always just sit there, shooting the Catalyst and watching the fireworks until the Crucible is destroyed and you get a non-standard game over.  I'm convinced that that's really the best "ending" in the game as it currently exists.

[Shallyah]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

... because after all that 'does this unit have a soul?' talk on Rannoch, it turns out it was them or us all along. Tali's character develoment is moot. Legion's sacrifice was meaningless. I want to ragemurder a kitten.

I actually don't see it this way, and I did pick the Destroy ending.  I saw the Reapers as a threat and one that ultimately needed to be destroyed.  I also loved that I was presented an option to make peace between the Geth and Quarians earlier in the game.  It (and Tuchanka) was probably one of my favourite moments in recent gaming history.  Probably since Planescape: Torment (my favourite game all time).


When I reached the conduit, I fully expected to have to sacrifice myself.  To be fair, I expected to sacrifice myself at the end of the previous two games too, so to me it's always something that I saw coming.  I also had no idea what to expect the Crucible to actually do.  Given the talks with Hackett, I felt it was us putting all our eggs in one basket because we only saw one basket to put our eggs into.

So I get to the Catalyst and start talking with him.  He presents the ways that the crucible can unleash its power.  I'm going into this thinking "Reapers. Must. Die!"  But then I'm told that choosing to destroy the Reapers will also destroy the Geth!  "Wait... WHAT?!  But I don't want to do that!!"  I found it very, very similar to Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 (one of my favourite parts of that game).  When presented with the Control ending, I was now a bit more considerate of it.  When presented with the synthesis ending, I was a bit more considerate of it.

It is because of the growth of the Geth and Quarians that my "obvious" choice was now not so obvious.  I also refused to believe the Catalyst's statements about the inevitability of synthetics and organics to destroy each other.  In fact, when Shepard says "Maybe" in response to the Catalyst's claims, it was my exact same thought.  I had grown to appreciate the Geth and Quarians because I was able to help resolve the 300 year conflict with them.  They were able to move on, which gave me hope that synthetic-organic conflict was not inevitable.

If Legion's sacrifice was meaningless, and Tali's character development irrelevant, I wouldn't have taken the time to think about whether or not I should destroy the reapers.  I wouldn't have cared at all.  I choked up when Tali told Legion it had a soul, and when Legion said "Keelah Se'lai" to her.  It was an amazing scene.  I thought it was awesome that the Geth were helping the Quarians adapt and retake Rannoch.  Which is what made the destroy option that much more impactful for me.  Rather than being a trivial, obvious choice, I hesitated and had an emotional response to the decision.

In the end, I chose the destroy ending.  I found it bittersweet because it came at the cost of the Geth, but ultimately freeing the galaxy of the Reapers is something my Shepard felt had to be done.  The "maybe" he said rang true for me, and I wanted to give the opportunity for organics to prove the Catalyst wrong in the future.  I actually preferred this ending to simply "destroy all reapers."  Though I can understand that people would have preferred something more ideal.


NOTE:  While my name has BioWare attached to it, I've only ever worked on the DA franchise and actually would close my eyes and go "LALALALALALA" during the ME parts of studio meetings so as to not spoil anything for myself

In other words, I played through the game as a fan of the franchise too


Cheers.

Allan

I underline all this person said. Exactly my feelings, point by point. IF the Geth didn't have to be sacrificed, choosing Red would be really no brainer. Having to destroy the Geth after brokering a peaec between them and the Quarians is what makes it so hard. And EDI.

But I wanted the Galaxy to prove the Catalyst wrong. No way I came that far to let the Reapers have their way.

Modifié par Shallyah, 07 avril 2012 - 09:24 .

[Gammazero79]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

... because after all that 'does this unit have a soul?' talk on Rannoch, it turns out it was them or us all along. Tali's character develoment is moot. Legion's sacrifice was meaningless. I want to ragemurder a kitten.

I actually don't see it this way, and I did pick the Destroy ending.  I saw the Reapers as a threat and one that ultimately needed to be destroyed.  I also loved that I was presented an option to make peace between the Geth and Quarians earlier in the game.  It (and Tuchanka) was probably one of my favourite moments in recent gaming history.  Probably since Planescape: Torment (my favourite game all time).


When I reached the conduit, I fully expected to have to sacrifice myself.  To be fair, I expected to sacrifice myself at the end of the previous two games too, so to me it's always something that I saw coming.  I also had no idea what to expect the Crucible to actually do.  Given the talks with Hackett, I felt it was us putting all our eggs in one basket because we only saw one basket to put our eggs into.

So I get to the Catalyst and start talking with him.  He presents the ways that the crucible can unleash its power.  I'm going into this thinking "Reapers. Must. Die!"  But then I'm told that choosing to destroy the Reapers will also destroy the Geth!  "Wait... WHAT?!  But I don't want to do that!!"  I found it very, very similar to Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 (one of my favourite parts of that game).  When presented with the Control ending, I was now a bit more considerate of it.  When presented with the synthesis ending, I was a bit more considerate of it.

It is because of the growth of the Geth and Quarians that my "obvious" choice was now not so obvious.  I also refused to believe the Catalyst's statements about the inevitability of synthetics and organics to destroy each other.  In fact, when Shepard says "Maybe" in response to the Catalyst's claims, it was my exact same thought.  I had grown to appreciate the Geth and Quarians because I was able to help resolve the 300 year conflict with them.  They were able to move on, which gave me hope that synthetic-organic conflict was not inevitable.

If Legion's sacrifice was meaningless, and Tali's character development irrelevant, I wouldn't have taken the time to think about whether or not I should destroy the reapers.  I wouldn't have cared at all.  I choked up when Tali told Legion it had a soul, and when Legion said "Keelah Se'lai" to her.  It was an amazing scene.  I thought it was awesome that the Geth were helping the Quarians adapt and retake Rannoch.  Which is what made the destroy option that much more impactful for me.  Rather than being a trivial, obvious choice, I hesitated and had an emotional response to the decision.

In the end, I chose the destroy ending.  I found it bittersweet because it came at the cost of the Geth, but ultimately freeing the galaxy of the Reapers is something my Shepard felt had to be done.  The "maybe" he said rang true for me, and I wanted to give the opportunity for organics to prove the Catalyst wrong in the future.  I actually preferred this ending to simply "destroy all reapers."  Though I can understand that people would have preferred something more ideal.


NOTE:  While my name has BioWare attached to it, I've only ever worked on the DA franchise and actually would close my eyes and go "LALALALALALA" during the ME parts of studio meetings so as to not spoil anything for myself

In other words, I played through the game as a fan of the franchise too


Cheers.

Allan

So speaking fan to fan were you bothered by the ends at all? I mean honestly how did the rest of the end make sense to you? [not insulting I truly want to know] Joker running away, the scene on the garden planet, the fact that your war assets were little more than a number, the lack of explanation and options, ect..... 

[AlexPorto111]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

A race exterminated so that every other race in existence can be free. I'd call that a fair sacrifice.

[Raiil]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

VonVerrikan wrote...

 You kill 300,000 batarians and nobody even seems to care, yourself included! And you think killing the geth matters?

Exactly. You care more about robots than Batarians.

Can't speak for others, but I tried to warn them the best I could, and I personally felt like s--t that the game does not enable you to save them. My Shepard does care.


Also, that wasn't genocide, just saying. It wasn't systematic, deliberate, or with the intention of wiping out a species or a culture, just an act of desparation. Unless you're a batarian-hating Shepard, of course.