808 réponses à ce sujet

[Chrillze]

The Angry One wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

the geth are just talking toasters, they had to be sacrificed for the greater good

<facepalm> You do realise how dangerous thatline of thought is right?

Dangerous how?

They're robots, with Reaper code or not. In retrospect, best you can do is to extermiante them before Legion uploads the Reaper code. That way you don't even have to deal with the "guilt" of killing individual sentient beings in the Destroy ending.

Sorry, but I have a hard time to see anything wrong with destroying space junk to save millions of races in the course of millions of years of the galactic course. And how many races had been exterminated by the Reapers before? How many cultures? How many mothers holding their newborn child, killed without asking why?

Stop being cynical, please.

You'd destroy a unique race of pacifists, and possibly the Quarians too? And think it moral?
You'd give in to the Reapers terms without a fight? Really?

It's not moral but to save the galaxy you have to make sacrifices

[The Angry One]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

While this is a good point, the fact remains Mass Effect has always given us the ability to chose a more ideal option, it just had to be earned (usually through Paragon/Renegade/Reputation).  The question is, why avoid doing so with the ending?

Frankly it bothers me that a member of the DA team doesn't have a problem with it.
What next? Destroy all Darkspawn in DA3, oh but if you want to do that you also have to kill all mages?

Let's just attach every supposed victory to a hostage! That's good storytelling! <_<

[zovoes]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eschew negociation, get right to the killin'?
You'd make the stranger who replaced Commander Shepard in the last 5 minutes of the game proud.

I don't like the endings any more than the next guy. But I'll work with what I've got. As much as I'd like to take a fourth option, that isn't possible at this point.

thats when you flip the board and make your own man. genocide is not an opiton it's a crime
against humanity.

Modifié par zovoes, 07 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[The Angry One]

Chrillze wrote...
 It's not moral but to save the galaxy you have to make sacrifices

There were enough sacrifices made throughout the game.
The fact that you give into the Reaper's ultimatum makes those sacrifices meaningless.

[xsdob]

Well, two things,

1. If your ems is high enough, you probably just kill the geth on earth, and the ones in space or on rannoch are fine. That would be the easiest way to do it, and would play out more like arrival, that last sacrifice to stop the reapers once and for all, the pragmatic renegade choice.

2. Shepard already commits mass murder throughout the games, You can genocide the rachni twice, wipe out the geth or quarians, and you inadvertently killed 60,000 batarians to stop the repaers for a few months, so that the other races could prepare for war.

Also, if you really want to get technical, think of all the thousands of mercenaries you killed throughout the game, all of their grieving families and all that blood is on shepard and his crews hands. Not to mention that each reaper is technically an entire species civilization stored into a single entity, so you basically wiped out five civilizations throughout the course of mass effect 1 and 3, 2 of them in the last mission alone. Not to mention that with destroy, all those reapers containing all those species entire history, people, culture, and genetic information are all wiped out in an single stroke.

Basically, if a video game asks you to kill people, regardless of the situation or if they are really that bad or not. If a game has killing people to get from objective a to point b, than you pretty much are playing a mass murderer, just one who could get away with the self-defense claim all of the time.

[Necrotron]

Is it okay if I nuke civilians along with these evil dictators in order to stop them from taking over the world? Is that moral?

Modifié par Bathaius, 07 avril 2012 - 09:36 .

[NormanRawn]

Artking3 wrote...

Kill a few million to save a few trillion.

War is about hard choices.

We could just as easily save them by letting the Reapers harvest us. We will be ascended to Reaper form, and preserved/saved forever! Think of all the lives we will save....wait...that doesn't sound right

I prefer the Catalysts translation to your post

Kill a few trillion every cycle.

Turn them into paste and save their genetic material. Thus saving them from extinction

I think thats what BioWare was going for when they implied the Reapers motivations for murder are good ones.

[M0keys]

Jacobcus wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Dandynermite wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dandynermite wrote...

Your still all ignoring the fact killing the reapers is also Genocide! Just because they are one the other team doesn't make them any less of a "being" than the Geth!

You don't know what genocide means. It doesn't mean "killing every member of a race/species." It means killing them because they belong to that race/species. No one is killing the Reapers because they belong to the Reaper race. They are doing it because THE REAPERS ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL.

nobody is killing the geth just because they are geth, they are killing the geth because that's the only way to destroy the reapers. 

Tell me something. If a gunman holds an innocent person hostage, do you consider it acceptable to shoot the hostage to kill the gunman?

If you hit the hostage in the shoulder they will fall and leave yourself free to double tap the gunman before they can harm anybody, saving everybody and only applying superficial wounds to the hostage.

So yes. 

It's not the same, though.

A better comparison would be... there are 5 hostages and a bomb. One of those hostages is strapped to the bomb, and if they die, the bomb is defused (!?)

You can try to defuse the bomb yourself. This may or may not work. You can also just murder the hostage and through some kind of magic, the bomb is defused.

I believe a damaged man would kill the hostage.

the safest and best choice is to kill the hostage, unless you know how to disarm a bomb of course

How will killing the Hostage disarm the bomb again lol?

Magic.

Hey, they didn't explain how the Crucible worked! 

[The Angry One]

xsdob wrote...

Well, two things,

1. If your ems is high enough, you probably just kill the geth on earth, and the ones in space or on rannoch are fine. That would be the easiest way to do it, and would play out more like arrival, that last sacrifice to stop the reapers once and for all, the pragmatic renegade choice.

2. Shepard already commits mass murder throughout the games, You can genocide the rachni twice, wipe out the geth or quarians, and you inadvertently killed 60,000 batarians to stop the repaers for a few months, so that the other races could prepare for war.

Also, if you really want to get technical, think of all the thousands of mercenaries you killed throughout the game, all of their grieving families and all that blood is on shepard and his crews hands. Not to mention that each reaper is technically an entire species civilization stored into a single entity, so you basically wiped out five civilizations throughout the course of mass effect 1 and 3, 2 of them in the last mission alone. Not to mention that with destroy, all those reapers containing all those species entire history, people, culture, and genetic information are all wiped out in an single stroke.

Basically, if a video game asks you to kill people, regardless of the situation or if they are really that bad or not. If a game has killing people to get from objective a to point b, than you pretty much are playing a mass murderer, just one who could get away with the self-defense claim all of the time.

Because killing people who are attacking you, and betraying and murdering your own allies are exactly the same thing.

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

While this is a good point, the fact remains Mass Effect has always given us the ability to chose a more ideal option, it just had to be earned (usually through Paragon/Renegade/Reputation).  The question is, why avoid doing so with the ending?

Frankly it bothers me that a member of the DA team doesn't have a problem with it.
What next? Destroy all Darkspawn in DA3, oh but if you want to do that you also have to kill all mages?

Let's just attach every supposed victory to a hostage! That's good storytelling! <_<

To be fair, DA doesn't have Paragon/Renegade system and has been more in line with the "no decision is ideal" thinking. Funnily enough Origins' line of endings is all I wanted....

[Dandynermite]

The Angry One wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

While this is a good point, the fact remains Mass Effect has always given us the ability to chose a more ideal option, it just had to be earned (usually through Paragon/Renegade/Reputation).  The question is, why avoid doing so with the ending?

Frankly it bothers me that a member of the DA team doesn't have a problem with it.
What next? Destroy all Darkspawn in DA3, oh but if you want to do that you also have to kill all mages?

Let's just attach every supposed victory to a hostage! That's good storytelling! <_<

I'd kill all the mages with no problem.

Anders Merril and Bethany already know that, so does all of Fereldan.


DA3 though cannot possibly get worse though, DA2 was a poor game, compared to DA:O , ME3 had a crap ending. Even if you do a  below par game with a crap ending then it still cannot get worse

[Chrillze]

zovoes wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eschew negociation, get right to the killin'?
You'd make the stranger who replaced Commander Shepard in the last 5 minutes of the game proud.

I don't like the endings any more than the next guy. But I'll work with what I've got. As much as I'd like to take a fourth option, that isn't possible at this point.

that when you flip the board and make your own man. genocide is not an opiton it's a crime
against humanity.

It's the geth, its a race of robots not humans. If you have to choose between saving the galaxy but killing the geth or let the repaers win you choose sacrificing the geth. it's unfortunate but sacrifices has to be made for the greater good

[Mr.House]

Until I see proof that the Geth and EDI die, then Starbrat was lying to you, more so when he says you will die but you can survive. My Shepard only killed one race, and that was the Reapers and they deserved it. If the Geth and EDI do die, then their sacrifice will be remembered.

[Aedan276]

Dranks wrote...

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Mr. Spock moments before death

The geth were a very unfortunate sacrifice, but one that needed to be made so life can continue unhindered. I hated the endings but this is not one of the problems I have with them.

Consider all of the development that led up to the confrontation on Rannoch -- sacrifice a less guilty and sympathetic Synthetic people so that a guiltier but also sympathetic Organic people can live. That was developed over three games. Kind of a hard thing for Shepard to deal with. 

Now consider how the same subject is abruptly brought up and then brought to a close in the last five minutes. 

Don't have to look too hard to see the problem here. 

[Mims]

To me [or, my Shepard really], the reapers had to be destroyed. Synthesis? Sounds like the worst idea ever. Control? Could easily backfire, or Shepard could at some point lose his/her humanity and just start reaping the galaxy again. They HAD to die. The geth are an unfortunate casualty, but honestly, my Shepard probably didn't even know if the thing was lying or telling the truth or what. They just had to die, whatever the cost. She probably would have anheroed the entire galaxy just to take them out. Life would find a way.

As far as living with the consequences... its hard to say. She might not feel completely responsible, as she was [and is] forced into the choice. The other two options were nonoptions. Also there's the possibility they could be restored to their pre-reapercode state. 

Modifié par Mims, 07 avril 2012 - 09:38 .

[Ivoryhammer]

What bugs me about destroying the Geth is that we spent all that time making them at peace with the Quarians just a little while ago. I mean, what's the point if we're just going to kill them all?

[The Angry One]

Chrillze wrote...

zovoes wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eschew negociation, get right to the killin'?
You'd make the stranger who replaced Commander Shepard in the last 5 minutes of the game proud.

I don't like the endings any more than the next guy. But I'll work with what I've got. As much as I'd like to take a fourth option, that isn't possible at this point.

that when you flip the board and make your own man. genocide is not an opiton it's a crime
against humanity.

It's the geth, its a race of robots not humans. If you have to choose between saving the galaxy but killing the geth or let the repaers win you choose sacrificing the geth. it's unfortunate but sacrifices has to be made for the greater good

The Geth are alive. The entire game establishes the fact that they are alive.
Surrendering to the Reapers and agreeing to kill them is betrayal and murder.

It's letting fear compromise who you are.
It's sacrificing the soul of your species.

[TomY90]

NormanRawn wrote...

Artking3 wrote...

Kill a few million to save a few trillion.

War is about hard choices.

We could just as easily save them by letting the Reapers harvest us. We will be ascended to Reaper form, and preserved/saved forever! Think of all the lives we will save....wait...that doesn't sound right

I prefer the Catalysts translation to your post

Kill a few trillion every cycle.

Turn them into paste and save their genetic material. Thus saving them from extinction

I think thats what BioWare was going for when they implied the Reapers motivations for murder are good ones.

is a weird justification of why the reapers do what they do. I was expecting something like we harvest advanced civilizations for a mysterious race in another galaxy or dark space  and the reapers bring there resources to this race to maintain this races population.

Or much better was the dark energy that the reapers do what they do to start dark energy build up.

Modifié par TomY90, 07 avril 2012 - 09:38 .

[eddieoctane]

I don't think the comparison between choosing destruction and the events of Arrival is fair. You are given an opportunity to warn the colonists. If Kenson wasn't indoctrinated, much more warning could have been given. As I tend to play paragon, I would have started the asteroid on its collision course and given warning to the colony as soon as it built up enough momentum to know that the problem was addressed. Hell, I'd even try to convince Citadel and Alliance ships to aid in the evacuation if at all possible.

The decision to wipe out the colony wasn't yours to make. It was taken away by a bunch of indoctrinated scientists. It was a ham-fisted attempt to make you feel guilty over something you had no control over. While the colonists' deaths are tragic and should be mourned, I never (and by extension, neither should my Shepards) felt any guilt over it. No more than I feel guilty over the civilians being killed in Syria. I have no power to influence those events.

[M0keys]

2. Shepard already commits mass murder throughout the games, You can genocide the rachni twice, wipe out the geth or quarians, and you inadvertently killed 60,000 batarians to stop the repaers for a few months, so that the other races could prepare for war.

Can I just say that I saved the Rachni, brought peace to the Geth and Quarians, and did everything I could to save the Batarians?

[Necrotron]

The game goes to great extensive lengths to prove to you the Geth's humanity.

They are NOT merely robots.

[Kunoichi2007]

Whatever happened to "there's always another way"?

Couldn't there have been another way to stop the Reapers without having to compromise our morals? Maybe have an epic Shepard speech (depending on previous choices and Paragon and Renagade scores of course) that convinces the Catalyst that it was wrong and to just shut down the Reapers or something? It wouldn't be the first time Shepard convinced a bad guy to kill itself.

I refuse to believe that there is no way to save both organic and synthetic life. If the Geth and Quarians can make peace and coexist, wouldn't that mean the Catalyst was wrong?

[Village_Idiot]

Mims wrote...

To me [or, my Shepard really], the reapers had to be destroyed. Synthesis? Sounds like the worst idea ever. Control? Could easily backfire, or Shepard could at some point lose his/her humanity and just start reaping the galaxy again. They HAD to die. The geth are an unfortunate casualty, but honestly, my Shepard probably didn't even know if the thing was lying or telling the truth or what. They just had to die, whatever the cost. She probably would have anheroed the entire galaxy just to take them out. Life would find a way.

My thoughts exactly. Other two options weren't feasible. Destroy isn't perfect by any means, but it's the lesser evil of the three.

Debating a "fourth option" is pointless, seeing as it's non-existent. At least for now.

[Chrillze]

The Angry One wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

zovoes wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eschew negociation, get right to the killin'?
You'd make the stranger who replaced Commander Shepard in the last 5 minutes of the game proud.

I don't like the endings any more than the next guy. But I'll work with what I've got. As much as I'd like to take a fourth option, that isn't possible at this point.

that when you flip the board and make your own man. genocide is not an opiton it's a crime
against humanity.

It's the geth, its a race of robots not humans. If you have to choose between saving the galaxy but killing the geth or let the repaers win you choose sacrificing the geth. it's unfortunate but sacrifices has to be made for the greater good

The Geth are alive. The entire game establishes the fact that they are alive.
Surrendering to the Reapers and agreeing to kill them is betrayal and murder.

It's letting fear compromise who you are.
It's sacrificing the soul of your species.

I'm not a paragon, 

[AnImpossibleGirl]

M0keys wrote...

2. Shepard already commits mass murder throughout the games, You can genocide the rachni twice, wipe out the geth or quarians, and you inadvertently killed 60,000 (No, over 300,000) batarians to stop the repaers for a few months, so that the other races could prepare for war.

Can I just say that I saved the Rachni, brought peace to the Geth and Quarians, and did everything I could to save the Batarians?

Edit.