808 réponses à ce sujet

[Necrotron]

xsdob wrote...

2. Shepard already commits mass murder throughout the games, You can genocide the rachni twice, wipe out the geth or quarians, and you inadvertently killed 60,000 batarians to stop the repaers for a few months, so that the other races could prepare for war.

Can I just say that I did not play Arrival and likely never will.  My Shepard did none of those things.

Also, my Shepard saved the Rachni, the Geth, and the Quarians.

[Calamity Abounds]

Ask the citizens of Arathot they'll... oh yeah

[The Angry One]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Mims wrote...

To me [or, my Shepard really], the reapers had to be destroyed. Synthesis? Sounds like the worst idea ever. Control? Could easily backfire, or Shepard could at some point lose his/her humanity and just start reaping the galaxy again. They HAD to die. The geth are an unfortunate casualty, but honestly, my Shepard probably didn't even know if the thing was lying or telling the truth or what. They just had to die, whatever the cost. She probably would have anheroed the entire galaxy just to take them out. Life would find a way.

My thoughts exactly. Other two options weren't feasible. Destroy isn't perfect by any means, but it's the lesser evil of the three.

Debating a "fourth option" is pointless, seeing as it's non-existent. At least for now.

But that doesn't make destroy the "best". It might look that way superficially, but it isn't
It's still a victory for the Reaper agenda, that the Reapers themselves are killed is largely irrelevant.

[anlk92]

Bathaius wrote...

I agree completely. I don't find Shepard being a mass murderer a worthwhile trade-off for the ability to reunite with his love interest.

Control seems like a terrible choice too, considering Shepard shouldn't trust anything the starchild says, especially when the only reasoning why control is stated to work is, "The Illusive Man couldn't because he was already indoctrinated..." Okay...not going to just trust you on that okay.

Synthesis is much less outright evil, but still a terrible thing to do to all sentient beings in the galaxy.

So, that leaves nothing. Either die, or chose a horrible option. Not sure which to pick.

That is so true. When I play a video game, I don't want to be forced into an action that I find morally unjustifiable. Especially if the main selling point of that game is choice. If Bioware is ok with that, then I'll just stay away from their games in the future.

[Dandynermite]

I'd like to point out I...

Killed the Baratians.
Killed all the hostages I could.
Re-steralized the Krogan
Killed Wrex
Killed Mordin
And wiped out the Geth and the Reapers...

the only thing I find morally wrong is femshep and Samantha don't get a place on earth living happily ever after, now THAT is wrong

[Jacobcus]

NormanRawn wrote...

Artking3 wrote...

Kill a few million to save a few trillion.

War is about hard choices.

We could just as easily save them by letting the Reapers harvest us. We will be ascended to Reaper form, and preserved/saved forever! Think of all the lives we will save....wait...that doesn't sound right

I prefer the Catalysts translation to your post

Kill a few trillion every cycle.

Turn them into paste and save their genetic material. Thus saving them from extinction

I think thats what BioWare was going for when they implied the Reapers motivations for murder are good ones.

That doesn't make sense, it may save there genetic's but they are dead, they have no mind or soul. They're extinct.

[The Angry One]

Chrillze wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

zovoes wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eschew negociation, get right to the killin'?
You'd make the stranger who replaced Commander Shepard in the last 5 minutes of the game proud.

I don't like the endings any more than the next guy. But I'll work with what I've got. As much as I'd like to take a fourth option, that isn't possible at this point.

that when you flip the board and make your own man. genocide is not an opiton it's a crime
against humanity.

It's the geth, its a race of robots not humans. If you have to choose between saving the galaxy but killing the geth or let the repaers win you choose sacrificing the geth. it's unfortunate but sacrifices has to be made for the greater good

The Geth are alive. The entire game establishes the fact that they are alive.
Surrendering to the Reapers and agreeing to kill them is betrayal and murder.

It's letting fear compromise who you are.
It's sacrificing the soul of your species.

I'm not a paragon, 

Do you think a renegade lets fear compromise who they are?

[M0keys]

Dranks wrote...

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Mr. Spock moments before death

And do you know it was so poignant that he said that?

Because he was sacrificing himself, and the only issue to him was that Kirk would lose a friend (sad, but not evil.)

Spock did not force his fatal sacrifice on others. He saved everyone except himself. That's why the saying works, and that's why he was a hero.

[CronoDragoon]

M0keys wrote...

2. Shepard already commits mass murder throughout the games, You can genocide the rachni twice, wipe out the geth or quarians, and you inadvertently killed 60,000 batarians to stop the repaers for a few months, so that the other races could prepare for war.

Can I just say that I saved the Rachni, brought peace to the Geth and Quarians, and did everything I could to save the Batarians?

Exactly. If you killed off the Rachni, sabotaged the genophage, and helped the quarians kill the geth or vice versa, then by all means have your "the end by any means" choices at the end. As it stands, there is no other way to end your game but Renegade.

[Shallyah]

Creating artificial sentient life is even forbidden by the intergalactic law. The Geth are an error. Tali explains in Mass Effect 1 why them gaining self awareness is not intended and causes panic in Quarian society, because if they become self ware they stop being tools, and become slaves. The Quarians are not slavers, they only wanted tools for labourl like a hammer or a screwdriver are. Just slightly more automated.

That the Geth evolved to be more than that is an offense to nature itself. Destroying them to save trillions? Hell, the only sad part is that the choice wasn't given earlier, so the many millions of incredible and fascinating races that you can imagine that were exterminated had been spared, and the galaxy and the universe would be an incredibly richer setting.

Modifié par Shallyah, 07 avril 2012 - 09:44 .

[zovoes]

Chrillze wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

zovoes wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eschew negociation, get right to the killin'?
You'd make the stranger who replaced Commander Shepard in the last 5 minutes of the game proud.

I don't like the endings any more than the next guy. But I'll work with what I've got. As much as I'd like to take a fourth option, that isn't possible at this point.

that when you flip the board and make your own man. genocide is not an opiton it's a crime
against humanity.

It's the geth, its a race of robots not humans. If you have to choose between saving the galaxy but killing the geth or let the repaers win you choose sacrificing the geth. it's unfortunate but sacrifices has to be made for the greater good

The Geth are alive. The entire game establishes the fact that they are alive.
Surrendering to the Reapers and agreeing to kill them is betrayal and murder.

It's letting fear compromise who you are.
It's sacrificing the soul of your species.

I'm not a paragon, 

we are

Modifié par zovoes, 07 avril 2012 - 09:41 .

[Necrotron]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

My thoughts exactly. Other two options weren't feasible. Destroy isn't perfect by any means, but it's the lesser evil of the three.

And downright evil.  There is no way to 'win' in Mass Effect 3.

Hence the massive outcry.  No choice is fulfilling (to many players) in any way, shape, or form.

My Shepard chose death with integrity and refused all three options.

[legion999]

Chrillze wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

the geth are just talking toasters, they had to be sacrificed for the greater good

<facepalm> You do realise how dangerous that line of thought is right?

really? how? I'm saving the galaxy,

Dehumanization comes to mind. And I know they're not human. They're still sentient.

[Merwanor]

The biggest problem with the ending is exactly that there is no choice to just say no, I will not comply with any of these suggestions and I would rather choose to fight to the last man than to comply to any of these "solutions" to a issue that is nonsensical and just plain wrong and deterministic in nature, it is a issue that builds upon fate and I don't believe in fate. That something is pre determined to happen.

How can I moraly choose to destroy all the geth and all syntethics when throughout the game I make much effort to let people know that they are as important as anyone else and have the same right to live as anyone else, and how can 1 person make such a choice by them selves?

How can I make a decision that alters the very DNA of every living being without consulting them? This is also a decision that would effect the galaxy forever.

And how could I take control over another race, when I also hold free will to be a birthright to every single living thing. Yes it would save the rest of the races that is being slaughtered by the Reapers, but what should Shepard do with all these Reapers he/she is now controlling, be their puppet master and hold them as prisoners of war forever? Kill them all? but Shepard made such a big case out of rescuing the Rachni was the right choice, because he can't kill an entire race.

Why can't I try and reason with this thing to just stop what it is doing? why is this not an option? Shepard might fail, but I just don't believe the fact that Shepard can't even try. And why is there no choice to say no, and refuse to comply with any of the choices laid out before Shepard?

[M0keys]

Bathaius wrote...

xsdob wrote...

2. Shepard already commits mass murder throughout the games, You can genocide the rachni twice, wipe out the geth or quarians, and you inadvertently killed 60,000 batarians to stop the repaers for a few months, so that the other races could prepare for war.

Can I just say that I did not play Arrival and likely never will.  My Shepard did none of those things.

Also, my Shepard saved the Rachni, the Geth, and the Quarians.

Who are you and why are you copying all the stuff I am saying in response to these questions lol

are you my twin

stop it

[Reptilian Rob]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

... because after all that 'does this unit have a soul?' talk on Rannoch, it turns out it was them or us all along. Tali's character develoment is moot. Legion's sacrifice was meaningless. I want to ragemurder a kitten.

I actually don't see it this way, and I did pick the Destroy ending.  I saw the Reapers as a threat and one that ultimately needed to be destroyed.  I also loved that I was presented an option to make peace between the Geth and Quarians earlier in the game.  It (and Tuchanka) was probably one of my favourite moments in recent gaming history.  Probably since Planescape: Torment (my favourite game all time).


When I reached the conduit, I fully expected to have to sacrifice myself.  To be fair, I expected to sacrifice myself at the end of the previous two games too, so to me it's always something that I saw coming.  I also had no idea what to expect the Crucible to actually do.  Given the talks with Hackett, I felt it was us putting all our eggs in one basket because we only saw one basket to put our eggs into.

So I get to the Catalyst and start talking with him.  He presents the ways that the crucible can unleash its power.  I'm going into this thinking "Reapers. Must. Die!"  But then I'm told that choosing to destroy the Reapers will also destroy the Geth!  "Wait... WHAT?!  But I don't want to do that!!"  I found it very, very similar to Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 (one of my favourite parts of that game).  When presented with the Control ending, I was now a bit more considerate of it.  When presented with the synthesis ending, I was a bit more considerate of it.

It is because of the growth of the Geth and Quarians that my "obvious" choice was now not so obvious.  I also refused to believe the Catalyst's statements about the inevitability of synthetics and organics to destroy each other.  In fact, when Shepard says "Maybe" in response to the Catalyst's claims, it was my exact same thought.  I had grown to appreciate the Geth and Quarians because I was able to help resolve the 300 year conflict with them.  They were able to move on, which gave me hope that synthetic-organic conflict was not inevitable.

If Legion's sacrifice was meaningless, and Tali's character development irrelevant, I wouldn't have taken the time to think about whether or not I should destroy the reapers.  I wouldn't have cared at all.  I choked up when Tali told Legion it had a soul, and when Legion said "Keelah Se'lai" to her.  It was an amazing scene.  I thought it was awesome that the Geth were helping the Quarians adapt and retake Rannoch.  Which is what made the destroy option that much more impactful for me.  Rather than being a trivial, obvious choice, I hesitated and had an emotional response to the decision.

In the end, I chose the destroy ending.  I found it bittersweet because it came at the cost of the Geth, but ultimately freeing the galaxy of the Reapers is something my Shepard felt had to be done.  The "maybe" he said rang true for me, and I wanted to give the opportunity for organics to prove the Catalyst wrong in the future.  I actually preferred this ending to simply "destroy all reapers."  Though I can understand that people would have preferred something more ideal.


NOTE:  While my name has BioWare attached to it, I've only ever worked on the DA franchise and actually would close my eyes and go "LALALALALALA" during the ME parts of studio meetings so as to not spoil anything for myself

In other words, I played through the game as a fan of the franchise too


Cheers.

Allan

Going to tear this down in paragraph segments, because there is so much inconsistancy here. So very much. 

1) No, according to BW the Reapers were never a threat nor were they ever anything that needed to be "destroyed." The Reaper's Lovercrafitan elements (the unknown horror) were abandnoed in a favor for them being playthings to a circular logic fueled starchild ripoff of 2001. The peace brokering with the Quarians and Geth served no other purpose than to prove the Catalyst utterly flawed, creating a huge literary plothole. 

2) Actually, the entire "putting one's eggs in one basket" logic does not follow the ME motif. In both previous ME games Shepard had to find a plethora of ways to deal with the galaxies problems at large. In ME3 you were funnled into a singular path that all lead to the development of a dues ex machina weapon who's capabilities are unknown. Shepard's motif was broken at the very moment, because it forced out character to accept the fallacies laid before him/her. Complete nonsense. 

3) Again, you (as with everyone else) were funnled into a singular plotline. The only outcome was the one that was inteded and forced upon the players who in previous games had a choice. Your reaction in very common with stories who abandone plot and character elements in order to force down new unseen logic in the last moments without any explanation. The fact that Legion and Tali were fresh in our minds when we choose our red, green or blue ending is irrelevant because the choice (singular) laid before us completely invalidated those character's developement and plot elements.

4) You can claim bittersweet, however this is not the case with the ME series. If you are familiar with literary motifs in conjunction with plot elements and character development consistancy, you would not see it as bittersweet but broken. The previous ME games focused on the illusion of victory through sacrifice, toying with the players emotions in order to make them feel as though they were headed to certain defeat. However, the previous two ME games ended (again, depending on choices) with a triumphant end with bombastic music to boot. There was no sliiping into that "dark void of uncertainty" as there was with ME3. The tone of ME3's end music was far from the past two iterations, ending not on bittersweet but rather just bitter and tapering out.

I'm starting to wonder if the lead writers actually had a firm grasp on their own motifs and story consistancy, or were simply writing a nonsensicle end for the sake of being "deep." It's obvious that other writers such as Patrick Weekes were far more competant and in tune with ME than the other writers, it's a shame that he wasn't made lead. Truly.

It would be far more constructive of a debate with the developers if they were familiar with literary canon. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 07 avril 2012 - 09:44 .

[The Angry One]

Dandynermite wrote...

I'd like to point out I...

Killed the Baratians.
Killed all the hostages I could.
Re-steralized the Krogan
Killed Wrex
Killed Mordin
And wiped out the Geth and the Reapers...

the only thing I find morally wrong is femshep and Samantha don't get a place on earth living happily ever after, now THAT is wrong

Who the hell is saying that wiping them out shouldn't be an option.
You want to play the genocidal maniac? Good for you.

Now can I have the ending that fits my Shepard please?

[Chrillze]

The Angry One wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

zovoes wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eschew negociation, get right to the killin'?
You'd make the stranger who replaced Commander Shepard in the last 5 minutes of the game proud.

I don't like the endings any more than the next guy. But I'll work with what I've got. As much as I'd like to take a fourth option, that isn't possible at this point.

that when you flip the board and make your own man. genocide is not an opiton it's a crime
against humanity.

It's the geth, its a race of robots not humans. If you have to choose between saving the galaxy but killing the geth or let the repaers win you choose sacrificing the geth. it's unfortunate but sacrifices has to be made for the greater good

The Geth are alive. The entire game establishes the fact that they are alive.
Surrendering to the Reapers and agreeing to kill them is betrayal and murder.

It's letting fear compromise who you are.
It's sacrificing the soul of your species.

I'm not a paragon, 

Do you think a renegade lets fear compromise who they are?

the renegade does what's necessary

[The Smitchens]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

... because after all that 'does this unit have a soul?' talk on Rannoch, it turns out it was them or us all along. Tali's character develoment is moot. Legion's sacrifice was meaningless. I want to ragemurder a kitten.

I actually don't see it this way, and I did pick the Destroy ending.  I saw the Reapers as a threat and one that ultimately needed to be destroyed.  I also loved that I was presented an option to make peace between the Geth and Quarians earlier in the game.  It (and Tuchanka) was probably one of my favourite moments in recent gaming history.  Probably since Planescape: Torment (my favourite game all time).


When I reached the conduit, I fully expected to have to sacrifice myself.  To be fair, I expected to sacrifice myself at the end of the previous two games too, so to me it's always something that I saw coming.  I also had no idea what to expect the Crucible to actually do.  Given the talks with Hackett, I felt it was us putting all our eggs in one basket because we only saw one basket to put our eggs into.

So I get to the Catalyst and start talking with him.  He presents the ways that the crucible can unleash its power.  I'm going into this thinking "Reapers. Must. Die!"  But then I'm told that choosing to destroy the Reapers will also destroy the Geth!  "Wait... WHAT?!  But I don't want to do that!!"  I found it very, very similar to Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 (one of my favourite parts of that game).  When presented with the Control ending, I was now a bit more considerate of it.  When presented with the synthesis ending, I was a bit more considerate of it.

It is because of the growth of the Geth and Quarians that my "obvious" choice was now not so obvious.  I also refused to believe the Catalyst's statements about the inevitability of synthetics and organics to destroy each other.  In fact, when Shepard says "Maybe" in response to the Catalyst's claims, it was my exact same thought.  I had grown to appreciate the Geth and Quarians because I was able to help resolve the 300 year conflict with them.  They were able to move on, which gave me hope that synthetic-organic conflict was not inevitable.

If Legion's sacrifice was meaningless, and Tali's character development irrelevant, I wouldn't have taken the time to think about whether or not I should destroy the reapers.  I wouldn't have cared at all.  I choked up when Tali told Legion it had a soul, and when Legion said "Keelah Se'lai" to her.  It was an amazing scene.  I thought it was awesome that the Geth were helping the Quarians adapt and retake Rannoch.  Which is what made the destroy option that much more impactful for me.  Rather than being a trivial, obvious choice, I hesitated and had an emotional response to the decision.

In the end, I chose the destroy ending.  I found it bittersweet because it came at the cost of the Geth, but ultimately freeing the galaxy of the Reapers is something my Shepard felt had to be done.  The "maybe" he said rang true for me, and I wanted to give the opportunity for organics to prove the Catalyst wrong in the future.  I actually preferred this ending to simply "destroy all reapers."  Though I can understand that people would have preferred something more ideal.


NOTE:  While my name has BioWare attached to it, I've only ever worked on the DA franchise and actually would close my eyes and go "LALALALALALA" during the ME parts of studio meetings so as to not spoil anything for myself

In other words, I played through the game as a fan of the franchise too


Cheers.

Allan

Perhaps this is a bit indoctrination theoryish for some people, but i've wondered if the catalyst wasn't just outright lying.  We're talking about a race that's been around for eons.  What's a small lie like that to a civilization that's about to be extinguised to them?

[M0keys]

Poshible wrote...

M0keys wrote...

2. Shepard already commits mass murder throughout the games, You can genocide the rachni twice, wipe out the geth or quarians, and you inadvertently killed 60,000 (No, over 300,000) batarians to stop the repaers for a few months, so that the other races could prepare for war.

Can I just say that I saved the Rachni, brought peace to the Geth and Quarians, and did everything I could to save the Batarians?

Edit.

My response remains the same

[The Angry One]

Chrillze wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

zovoes wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eschew negociation, get right to the killin'?
You'd make the stranger who replaced Commander Shepard in the last 5 minutes of the game proud.

I don't like the endings any more than the next guy. But I'll work with what I've got. As much as I'd like to take a fourth option, that isn't possible at this point.

that when you flip the board and make your own man. genocide is not an opiton it's a crime
against humanity.

It's the geth, its a race of robots not humans. If you have to choose between saving the galaxy but killing the geth or let the repaers win you choose sacrificing the geth. it's unfortunate but sacrifices has to be made for the greater good

The Geth are alive. The entire game establishes the fact that they are alive.
Surrendering to the Reapers and agreeing to kill them is betrayal and murder.

It's letting fear compromise who you are.
It's sacrificing the soul of your species.

I'm not a paragon, 

Do you think a renegade lets fear compromise who they are?

the renegade does what's necessary

My Renegade doesn't. Ever.

Also thanks for admitting there's no Paragon option.

[Dandynermite]

The Angry One wrote...

Dandynermite wrote...

I'd like to point out I...

Killed the Baratians.
Killed all the hostages I could.
Re-steralized the Krogan
Killed Wrex
Killed Mordin
And wiped out the Geth and the Reapers...

the only thing I find morally wrong is femshep and Samantha don't get a place on earth living happily ever after, now THAT is wrong

Who the hell is saying that wiping them out shouldn't be an option.
You want to play the genocidal maniac? Good for you.

Now can I have the ending that fits my Shepard please?

Nope, that would go away from "artistic integuity"

[justafan]

Well, I assume the reason Shep lives in Red is because it was the only ending that didn't require a sacrifice of the body for the greater good. Why it is such an appealing choice though is because the other options are just as bad, if not worse, than genocide.

Synthesis has been analyzed to death but the short form of the argument is you are raping everyone's DNA/roboDNA and forcing change on a galaxy without consent.

Control on the other hand requires you to control the reapers, which has never been foreshadowed as to having good results. Not to mention, control is basically a way of keeping the reapers around to harvest all life in the future when things start to get out of control with synthetics again. Control is basically only a delay of genocide on a galactic scale.

Destroy is the only way to end the reaper cycle forever, and for organics to interact with synthetics on their own terms and to take their chances. The geth went into the war knowing they faced nonfunctionality, and sacrificing them for the good of all other life can be seen a more morally right then either postponing the genocide or using synthesis.

[J-Sheridan]

Control is the best ending: Shepard lives and becomes the God Reaper.

Instead of killing everyone - Shepard turns the Reapers into a force for love peace and... good stuff. Thats why its the goddamn blue ending !

Red - Your GOING ALONG WITH THE GOD-CHILDs logic that machines and Organics cannot live together thus exterminating all Reaper tech, Synthetics blah blah blah.
Including killing yourself.

Shepard lives ending - More like Shepard wakes up moments before a Reaper falls onto of him as it collapses or his implants kill him like every other poor SOB.

Blue - Shepard is assuming direct control of the Reapers and proving that Organics and Machines deserve the chance to try at least. If not establish that Shepard - Uniter of the Galaxy has become space jesus... sacrificing his self to preserve the galaxy.