222 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

Because the ending is a worse fate than death.

ftw

[Mr. Gogeta34]

guacamayus wrote...

The catalyst needed Shepard to activate the crucible, he even says so. Once the Crucible is attached its programming or whatever is altered.

And by the way, the Geth were very close to building a Dyson's Sphere, proving that the catalyst's logic wasn't completely wrong to begin with, they were one step away to surpass all organic races.

So... the Catalyst actually WANTS to activate the Crucible?  So why did he have TIM try to kill Shepard after attempting to make him "believe"?

[JPN17]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

guacamayus wrote...

The catalyst needed Shepard to activate the crucible, he even says so. Once the Crucible is attached its programming or whatever is altered.

And by the way, the Geth were very close to building a Dyson's Sphere, proving that the catalyst's logic wasn't completely wrong to begin with, they were one step away to surpass all organic races.

So... the Catalyst actually WANTS to activate the Crucible?  So why did he have TIM try to kill Shepard after attempting to make him "believe"?

Also why did it lift Shepard up on the platform when it just could have left Shepard to die by the console? The god kid says no organic made it that far before, but it's the one that's responsible for it.

[KingZayd]

humes spork wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

And the Crucible could be destroyed before it could be used, since Shepard had failed. So it wasn't screwed. The assembled might of the non-reaper galaxy was here, and the Reapers could destroy them. Taking the rest of the worlds would take time, but the reapers have displayed great patience throughout the series.

an ark? could be intercepted by the reapers and boom failure. In fact the interferometric arrays attached to the crucible give a realtime map of the galaxy, including the positions of every reaper in the galaxy. Surely could be used by the reapers to see all the non-reaper vessels in the galaxy?

That's...not what I'm getting at. The cat was out of the bag. Organics successfully over the course of two cycles developed countermeasures to the cycle, including an anti-Reaper weapon. The harvest is no longer a guaranteed success, because the current cycle's races developed methods for successfully hiding from the Reapers (having acquired a Reaper IFF and developed IES tech) and disseminating information into the next cycle in the event the current races failed to avoid extinction.

And, in reference to the interferometric arrays, there's not enough information present to make a judgment. For what's present, you could infer reasonably such arrays track by IFF signal and since the organic races coopted a Reaper IFF that would be a weak solution. Especially for the fact that such an ark would likely broadcast no IFF, and in combination with internal emissions sinks (the extant countermeasure to any other known detection method) there's no reason to believe that would succeed.

The cycle was already over, one way or another, and rather than stick to the plan fruitlessly out of a sense of denial or stubbornness starbrat conceded. It did so while it still maintained some sense of control and could guide the organics to a mutually-beneficial, or at least survival-ensuring, conclusion. Consider it a demonstration of good faith, in a way.

The Crucible didn't reprogram or fundamentally alter the Catalyst's programming or reason. It was a new variable introduced that changed the calculus upon which it relied to conclude the cycle was the only means available to it.

right.. beating the organics this time could take a little longer.. I'm displaying such impatience because war makes me so very tired and it's about time we all had another 50000 year nap. OOH i know! why don't i bring him upstairs so he can use activate his anti-reaper weapon? that sounds like a brilliant idea.  Maybe I can explain that when we destroy all these organic civilisations, we do it out of love, and maybe.. just maybe he'll spare us!

[Mr. Gogeta34]

JPN17 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

guacamayus wrote...

The catalyst needed Shepard to activate the crucible, he even says so. Once the Crucible is attached its programming or whatever is altered.

And by the way, the Geth were very close to building a Dyson's Sphere, proving that the catalyst's logic wasn't completely wrong to begin with, they were one step away to surpass all organic races.

So... the Catalyst actually WANTS to activate the Crucible?  So why did he have TIM try to kill Shepard after attempting to make him "believe"?

Also why did it lift Shepard up on the platform when it just could have left Shepard to die by the console? The god kid says no organic made it that far before, but it's the one that's responsible for it.

Heck, even earlier than that, why did he have Harbinger shoot Shepard?

[Talogrungi]

Ziggeh wrote...

They needed a new solution. That was sort of the main thrust of the scene.

Quite why he couldn't decide on his own is a fair question. And why he'd offer destroy or control is another, given they weren't viable solutions to his problem.

I get the distinct impression the extended cut will need to be a boatload of exposition.

So ..

1. Let Shepard bleed out rather than giving him the magic carpet ride.
2. Let the Reapers wipe out the combined fleet.
3. Continue with this cycles harvest.
4. Next cycle, harvest a bit earlier?

[TeffexPope]

Liber320 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

According himself, that a human had made it into that chamber proved that his "Solution" was no longer valid.

But Shepard didn't make it to the chamber, Starchild magic'd him there.

"The fact that I brought you to this chamber proves that my solution will no longer work"

Wut?

QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENTZ.

Modifié par TeffexPope, 22 avril 2012 - 08:03 .

[brusher225]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Taking the plot at face value... why would the Catalyst, King of the Reapers... let Shepard just "win?"

He was almost dead to begin with... and we already know that the Catalyst controls the Reapers... so why wasn't a new Marauder Shields sent up while they were talking to blow Shepard away?

Why does the Catalyst roughly say "Hey Shepard, if you want to destroy us go ahead, I won't stop you... feel free to do whatever you want."?


Bioware... you have the floor.

Perfectly legit question. All life forms ultimate goal is survival of self. Why would any life form give anyone instructions on a simple procedure to perform genecide on their own spieces? Well, they wouldn't.  Period.

[Balek-Vriege]

The Catalyst decides to give Shepard a chance, because it has logically deduced that based off current events, the Reaper cycles are no longer infallible as a plan. The Crucible has been built, the Catalyst location found, the Crucible is in place, a "final battle" is occuring, an individual is one elevator wide away from the main chamber and indoctrination failsafes have failed (TIM/Cerberus). The Crucible functions open new possibilities to the Catalyst, but it needs a 3rd party to execute a new solution (most likely the Catalyst is hardcoded programming, its shackled or both).

What's not outright suggested is the most important part of the Catalyst's logic. We know its purpose is to prevent AI domination, technological singularity and organic extinction forever. Although the Reapers can win this battle and the war this cycle, the current state of affairs proves the Galactic races can win against them. That leaves the possiblity that the next cycle or a future cycle will be more successful, have more knowledge of the Catalyst and will become more knowledgeable about what to do once the Crucible is already in place.

If this occurs, the Catalyst as an entity and its function could be entirely ignored. Meaning destroy would most likely always be chosen, which does not fix the core problem the Catalyst was built for or decided to "correct."

At the end of ME3, it only has to deal with one being who's half dead and desperate, as opposed to a less favourable situation that could pop up in the future.

In Shepard's case I could see it being harder for him/her to pick Synthesis or Destroy if Anderson made it up there as well. Would be even worse if 50+ soldiers made it too. Again destroy would almost always be chosen and if not, someone would probably shoot Shepard and pick destroy anyways.

Basically it's a one off opportunity for the Catalyst as much as it is for Shepard.

Edit:  We have to remember this isn't a good vs. evil thing.  The nature of the Catalyst is that its absorbed with fullfilling a function.  Self preservation doesn't factor into its logic, only the preservation of organics over the long term.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 22 avril 2012 - 09:17 .

[CSMone01]

standard super-villan procedure. Monologue and give the hero time to defeat you/escape.

[cuzsal]

Provo_101 wrote...

Because art.

and if you dont get art your a total idiot






guess i'm an idiot too cause i dont get the art in this:crying:

Modifié par cuzsal, 22 avril 2012 - 09:26 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Catalyst decides to give Shepard a chance, because it has logically deduced that based off current events, the Reaper cycles are no longer infallible as a plan. The Crucible has been built, the Catalyst location found, the Crucible is in place, a "final battle" is occuring, an individual is one elevator wide away from the main chamber and indoctrination failsafes have failed (TIM/Cerberus). The Crucible functions open new possibilities to the Catalyst, but it needs a 3rd party to execute a new solution (most likely the Catalyst is hardcoded programming, its shackled or both).

What's not outright suggested is the most important part of the Catalyst's logic. We know its purpose is to prevent AI domination, technological singularity and organic extinction forever. Although the Reapers can win this battle and the war this cycle, the current state of affairs proves the Galactic races can win against them. That leaves the possiblity that the next cycle or a future cycle will be more successful, have more knowledge of the Catalyst and will become more knowledgeable about what to do once the Crucible is already in place.

If this occurs, the Catalyst as an entity and its function could be entirely ignored. Meaning destroy would most likely always be chosen, which does not fix the core problem the Catalyst was built for or decided to "correct."

At the end of ME3, it only has to deal with one being who's half dead and desperate, as opposed to a less favourable situation that could pop up in the future.

In Shepard's case I could see it being harder for him/her to pick Synthesis or Destroy if Anderson made it up there as well. Would be even worse if 50+ soldiers made it too. Again destroy would almost always be chosen and if not, someone would probably shoot Shepard and pick destroy anyways.

Basically it's a one off opportunity for the Catalyst as much as it is for Shepard.

Edit:  We have to remember this isn't a good vs. evil thing.  The nature of the Catalyst is that its absorbed with fullfilling a function.  Self preservation doesn't factor into its logic, only the preservation of organics over the long term.

I understand what you're saying... but there's 2 major things you're missing.  1st thing is that, before the Crucible does any changing (which I assume to be the period of docking):

The Catalyst has the prothean artifacts and archives (thanks to Cerberus), knowledge on the Crucible (thanks to TIM), Commander Shepard whom TIM was able to directly control (so why wouldn't the Reapers be able to?), and certain victory over the galaxy at large (because the Crucible was their only hope).

Sovereign hijacked a dead Saren to ensure that the Reapers maintained control of the Citadel... now we know that the Catalyst controls all Reapers... so why didn't the Catalyst take over TIM to finish Shepard off?  Why was the Citadel transport beam even on to begin with?

You say the Reaper King realizes he needs a new strategy... then why try to kill Shepard at all if he's the new solution?  Additionally, why are the Reapers attacking the Crucible in the meantime?

The 2nd thing is that... if you don't make your choice fast enough, the Crucible is destroyed by the Reapers.  So what solution is the Reaper King moving toward exactly? 

The answer to that brings us right back to:  "why didn't the Reaper King just... kill Shepard" and close the Citadel beam?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 avril 2012 - 08:04 .

[Abreu Road]

cuzsal wrote...

Provo_101 wrote...

Because art.

and if you dont get art your a total idiot






guess i'm an idiot too cause i dont get the art in this:crying:

This.

[liggy002]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Catalyst decides to give Shepard a chance, because it has logically deduced that based off current events, the Reaper cycles are no longer infallible as a plan. The Crucible has been built, the Catalyst location found, the Crucible is in place, a "final battle" is occuring, an individual is one elevator wide away from the main chamber and indoctrination failsafes have failed (TIM/Cerberus). The Crucible functions open new possibilities to the Catalyst, but it needs a 3rd party to execute a new solution (most likely the Catalyst is hardcoded programming, its shackled or both).

What's not outright suggested is the most important part of the Catalyst's logic. We know its purpose is to prevent AI domination, technological singularity and organic extinction forever. Although the Reapers can win this battle and the war this cycle, the current state of affairs proves the Galactic races can win against them. That leaves the possiblity that the next cycle or a future cycle will be more successful, have more knowledge of the Catalyst and will become more knowledgeable about what to do once the Crucible is already in place.

If this occurs, the Catalyst as an entity and its function could be entirely ignored. Meaning destroy would most likely always be chosen, which does not fix the core problem the Catalyst was built for or decided to "correct."

At the end of ME3, it only has to deal with one being who's half dead and desperate, as opposed to a less favourable situation that could pop up in the future.

In Shepard's case I could see it being harder for him/her to pick Synthesis or Destroy if Anderson made it up there as well. Would be even worse if 50+ soldiers made it too. Again destroy would almost always be chosen and if not, someone would probably shoot Shepard and pick destroy anyways.

Basically it's a one off opportunity for the Catalyst as much as it is for Shepard.

Edit:  We have to remember this isn't a good vs. evil thing.  The nature of the Catalyst is that its absorbed with fullfilling a function.  Self preservation doesn't factor into its logic, only the preservation of organics over the long term.

I understand what you're saying... but there's 2 major things you're missing.  1st thing is that, before the Crucible does any changing (which I assume to be the period of docking):

The Catalyst has the prothean artifacts and archives (thanks to Cerberus), knowledge on the Crucible (thanks to TIM), Commander Shepard whom TIM was able to directly control (so why wouldn't the Reapers be able to?), and certain victory over the galaxy at large (because the Crucible was their only hope).

Sovereign hijacked a dead Saren to ensure that the Reapers maintained control of the Citadel... now we know that the Catalyst controls all Reapers... so why didn't the Catalyst take over TIM to finish Shepard off?  Why was the Citadel transport beam even on to begin with?

You say the Reaper King realizes he needs a new strategy... then why try to kill Shepard at all if he's the new solution?  Additionally, why are the Reapers attacking the Crucible in the meantime?

The 2nd thing is that... if you don't make your choice fast enough, the Crucible is destroyed by the Reapers.  So what solution is the Reaper King moving toward exactly? 

The answer to that brings us right back to:  "why didn't the Reaper King just... kill Shepard" and close the Citadel beam?

Wait.... WHAT?  They destroy the Crucible if you don't choose one of three options quickly enough?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

liggy002 wrote...

Wait.... WHAT?  They destroy the Crucible if you don't choose one of three options quickly enough?

Apparently...



http://social.biowar...10897963-1.html

http://social.biowar...ndex/10199021/3

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 avril 2012 - 08:15 .

[Jassu1979]

rachellouise wrote...

because his solution would not work any more, and he is unable to use the solutions made available by the crucible.

Just quoting the Catalyst doesn't really explain anything. What it achieves, though, is to illustrate the faulty line of argument and/or the lack of a solid explanation.

Why shouldn't the Catalyst's solution work any longer? If conventional victory against the reapers is still an impossibility (as most people who approve of the ending claim), then the Reapers *are* currently in the process of achieving their designated task, even if it might take them more than a hundred years to get there.
The simplest option for the Catalyst would be to leave Shepard in the control room, and just wait for the trauma to finish its job.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Jassu1979 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

because his solution would not work any more, and he is unable to use the solutions made available by the crucible.

Just quoting the Catalyst doesn't really explain anything. What it achieves, though, is to illustrate the faulty line of argument and/or the lack of a solid explanation.

Why shouldn't the Catalyst's solution work any longer? If conventional victory against the reapers is still an impossibility (as most people who approve of the ending claim), then the Reapers *are* currently in the process of achieving their designated task, even if it might take them more than a hundred years to get there.
The simplest option for the Catalyst would be to leave Shepard in the control room, and just wait for the trauma to finish its job.

It doesn't explain anything... because the Reaper King's solution was working.  Heck, the Crucible even gets destroyed in one ending... so again, why wake Shepard up at all?  Why not just let him die/kill him?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Anyone?

[Oldbones2]

Who keeps rezzing these threads?


Also, because he's very, very stupid.

He doesn't even know simple biology, or physics, or chemistry.

And his theories don't follow the scientific method either.

[Balek-Vriege]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Catalyst decides to give Shepard a chance, because it has logically deduced that based off current events, the Reaper cycles are no longer infallible as a plan. The Crucible has been built, the Catalyst location found, the Crucible is in place, a "final battle" is occuring, an individual is one elevator wide away from the main chamber and indoctrination failsafes have failed (TIM/Cerberus). The Crucible functions open new possibilities to the Catalyst, but it needs a 3rd party to execute a new solution (most likely the Catalyst is hardcoded programming, its shackled or both).

What's not outright suggested is the most important part of the Catalyst's logic. We know its purpose is to prevent AI domination, technological singularity and organic extinction forever. Although the Reapers can win this battle and the war this cycle, the current state of affairs proves the Galactic races can win against them. That leaves the possiblity that the next cycle or a future cycle will be more successful, have more knowledge of the Catalyst and will become more knowledgeable about what to do once the Crucible is already in place.

If this occurs, the Catalyst as an entity and its function could be entirely ignored. Meaning destroy would most likely always be chosen, which does not fix the core problem the Catalyst was built for or decided to "correct."

At the end of ME3, it only has to deal with one being who's half dead and desperate, as opposed to a less favourable situation that could pop up in the future.

In Shepard's case I could see it being harder for him/her to pick Synthesis or Destroy if Anderson made it up there as well. Would be even worse if 50+ soldiers made it too. Again destroy would almost always be chosen and if not, someone would probably shoot Shepard and pick destroy anyways.

Basically it's a one off opportunity for the Catalyst as much as it is for Shepard.

Edit:  We have to remember this isn't a good vs. evil thing.  The nature of the Catalyst is that its absorbed with fullfilling a function.  Self preservation doesn't factor into its logic, only the preservation of organics over the long term.

I understand what you're saying... but there's 2 major things you're missing.  1st thing is that, before the Crucible does any changing (which I assume to be the period of docking):

The Catalyst has the prothean artifacts and archives (thanks to Cerberus), knowledge on the Crucible (thanks to TIM), Commander Shepard whom TIM was able to directly control (so why wouldn't the Reapers be able to?), and certain victory over the galaxy at large (because the Crucible was their only hope).

Sovereign hijacked a dead Saren to ensure that the Reapers maintained control of the Citadel... now we know that the Catalyst controls all Reapers... so why didn't the Catalyst take over TIM to finish Shepard off?  Why was the Citadel transport beam even on to begin with?

You say the Reaper King realizes he needs a new strategy... then why try to kill Shepard at all if he's the new solution?  Additionally, why are the Reapers attacking the Crucible in the meantime?

The 2nd thing is that... if you don't make your choice fast enough, the Crucible is destroyed by the Reapers.  So what solution is the Reaper King moving toward exactly? 

The answer to that brings us right back to:  "why didn't the Reaper King just... kill Shepard" and close the Citadel beam?

Since this thread has been necroed I will point one thing about your 2 things.  I debated those issues a couple weeks ago and we have no clue what the Catalyst is or isn't capable of.  Based off the conversation at the end it doesn't seem like much.  It only governs the cycles and more or less controls the Reapers (making them Reap), but it may not directly control Reapers or execute those functions.  That's why it can't change the cycle or use the Crucible on its own.  That's why even though the Catalyst states it "controls" them, the Reapers still destroy the Crucible if you take too long.  The Catalyst may be shackled or hard coded to perform its function and helping Shepard is seriously skirting around it's programming, but somewhat neccessary as it sees the current plan getting closer to failure with each passing cycle.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The problem there is that there's only one way to control something, and that's if you control it. As the Catalyst says, the Reapers are his (like his property/tools/instruments). They're "his" solution, not their own solution. When talking about what the Reapers do, he says "we." "We" harvest advanced civilizations, "we" help them ascend. These are the Reaper King's ideas, his solutions, his methods.  He considers himself included in their actions... on top of professing to own and control them. 

If the Catalyst has decided to do a new solution, then why have the Reapers attacked the Crucible at all? It seems more likely that the Catalyst was stalling Shepard to prevent any chance of success (the Crucible's use). Because otherwise, why not just let Shepard make his choice? He never talks about not having anything but full control of the Reapers.. he even professed to have TIM under control (under the term "we").

Of course that once again begs the question... "Why didn't the Reaper King just.. kill Shepard?/Let him die?"

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 24 avril 2012 - 11:10 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

It genuinely does not make sense.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Oldbones2 wrote...

Who keeps rezzing these threads?


Also, because he's very, very stupid.

He doesn't even know simple biology, or physics, or chemistry.

And his theories don't follow the scientific method either.

Those who want to discuss the same topic without making a new thread... probably?

Supposedly the Reapers are of superior minds... thinking faster than even the Geth do.