1895 réponses à ce sujet

[Total Biscuit]

Tirranek wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...

Well that's the first thing I've heard from anyone at Bioware that's made me feel better about th ending

If what Weekes said is actually put into the extended cut, and we get to see the Normandy crew getting rescued, and preferably reunited with Shepard if they survive the Destroy ending, I'll actually be ok with the ending.

Still seems pointless to destroy the Relays if they're just going to say FTL will be faster now, so their wont be a difference though. Still, keeping the Mass Effect universe in a recognisable state is more important than being completely logical in this case frankly.

It isn't pointless.

The ‘Galactic Dark Age’ concept is really interesting. Conceptually, I think there’s potential there. I don’t think fans dislike the idea of it so much as it being forced on every single one of them regardless of how prepared you were going into the final battle on Earth. The Mass Relays by their very nature bind all advanced organic life in the galaxy, and it’s precisely because of this that the Reapers are able to grab everyone by the throat. The destruction of the Mass Relays on a symbolic level means liberating ourselves from the system of control and inevitable extinction they’ve had set up for so very, very long. It represents our chance to develop on our own terms. Be completely self-determined.

I find this idea really interesting as well. Since development was more or less directed by the positioning of the relays, tis new setup now means that space exploration will go off in loads of new directions.

Never said otherwise. There is loads of potential for interesting plots since they're hand waving away how screwed everyone would be without the relays based on what existed in canon by moving the goalposts.

However, doing so replaces all the potential the Mass Effect universe had with th Relays, that can never be brought back.

Instead we've now g
 a situation and set up that's identicle to 99% of other space based sci if universes. 

The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

You can write Great stories in ANY setting, but making them unique and original requires not being just like everyone else in your genre. We lost more than we gained.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Jamie9 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

"With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise." - From the codex (from the wiki).

See. I guess everybody would be okay. It'd take a few months to get the Quarians back to Rannoch but they'd make it.

Not really, considering Rannoch is about 100,000 lightyears away from the Sol system.

Tali's still going to be waiting a long...long time.

Oh. That equals just over 22 years of travel time. Ouch.

But... aha!

"To an outside observer, a ship within a mass effect drive
envelope appears to have blue-shifted. If within a field that allows
travel at twice the speed of light, any radiation it emits has twice the
energy as normal. If the ship is in a field of about 200 times
lightspeed, it radiates visible light as x-rays and gamma rays, and the
infrared heat from the hull is blue-shifted up into the visible spectrum
or higher." - Again from the Codex.

This means it is possible to develop up to 200 times the speed of light. If they managed to upgrade their eezo cores to this, that would mean it would take the Quarians 1 and a half years to get to Rannoch.

That's not too bad.

Maybe there's a chance for my Shep to dig his way out of the rubble, hit the jungle planet, and then go build that house after all.

[apieros]

jumpingkaede wrote...

If Bioware has to alter the Codex AFTER the ending

Wasn't I was suggesting. I pointed out that, yes, the "relays don't really explode" is a plothole. But it's one that could easily have been excused before the game shipped, had they taken the (literally) 5 minutes to add the following caveat to the codex:

"When destroyed, relays explode. Though some have speculated this isn't always the case."

Easy CYA they never bothered to do. So not only is it a plothole, it's a plothole with a trivial solution that was never implemented. This points up the fact that the team needed 6-12 more months to think through the ass-pull WTF ending, then rethink it, then come up with something that wasn't total ****.

See, the previously cited example of the ME1 codex identifying Sovereign as a Geth ship doesn't make ME3's ending any better. In fact, it makes it a worse example of ass-pulling.

We learned in the game (ME1) what Sovereign truly was. We never learned any different about relays in ME3. If they wanted the relays to explode without causing a supernova, they should have established the possibility for such an event in the game as well as the codex. The writers failed to do either. It's called "exposition" (or, in screenwriting, "laying pipe"). They failed to do their job.

So, yes, you're right. And I was trying to say that.

I agree with your entire post. Sorry about the confusion.

Modifié par apieros, 08 avril 2012 - 05:44 .

[Kanon777]

Total Biscuit wrote...
The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

Nonsense, the relays are not even the reason the series is well known for. They arent necessary to the uniqueness of the series at all. You're obviously exagerating...

And the ME series is not even very unique either, many treads have been made about several plot ideas Bioware borrowed from other scifi works. What makes the series sucessfull is the fact that they united several old ideas and put them together in the franchise...

[Tirranek]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...

Well that's the first thing I've heard from anyone at Bioware that's made me feel better about th ending

If what Weekes said is actually put into the extended cut, and we get to see the Normandy crew getting rescued, and preferably reunited with Shepard if they survive the Destroy ending, I'll actually be ok with the ending.

Still seems pointless to destroy the Relays if they're just going to say FTL will be faster now, so their wont be a difference though. Still, keeping the Mass Effect universe in a recognisable state is more important than being completely logical in this case frankly.

It isn't pointless.

The ‘Galactic Dark Age’ concept is really interesting. Conceptually, I think there’s potential there. I don’t think fans dislike the idea of it so much as it being forced on every single one of them regardless of how prepared you were going into the final battle on Earth. The Mass Relays by their very nature bind all advanced organic life in the galaxy, and it’s precisely because of this that the Reapers are able to grab everyone by the throat. The destruction of the Mass Relays on a symbolic level means liberating ourselves from the system of control and inevitable extinction they’ve had set up for so very, very long. It represents our chance to develop on our own terms. Be completely self-determined.

I find this idea really interesting as well. Since development was more or less directed by the positioning of the relays, tis new setup now means that space exploration will go off in loads of new directions.

Never said otherwise. There is loads of potential for interesting plots since they're hand waving away how screwed everyone would be without the relays based on what existed in canon by moving the goalposts.

However, doing so replaces all the potential the Mass Effect universe had with th Relays, that can never be brought back.

Instead we've now g
 a situation and set up that's identicle to 99% of other space based sci if universes. 

The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

You can write Great stories in ANY setting, but making them unique and original requires not being just like everyone else in your genre. We lost more than we gained.

I didn't mean to sound like I was disputing your point, it was meant more as a response to bboynexus. I agree it does make things more generic sci-fi but I'm intrigued by the potentially hidden corners of the setting that are more likely to be exposed under these new circumstances.

[pikey1969]

tobito113 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...
The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

Nonsense, the relays are not even the reason the series is well known for. They arent necessary to the uniqueness of the series at all. You're obviously exagerating...

And the ME series is not even very unique either, many treads have been made about several plot ideas Bioware borrowed from other scifi works. What makes the series sucessfull is the fact that they united several old ideas and put them together in the franchise...

your opinion is no less subjective than his.

to anyone that bothered reading the unskippable text scroll in the beginning of the first game, it is the mass relay system that leaps mankind forward into galactic travel and the world it revealed to it, just as it had for all the other galactic races in the past.

the mass relay phenomenon is WHY the game is called mass effect.

[Sphynxian]

Kochikens is a great man.

[zovoes]

tobito113 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...
The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

Nonsense, the relays are not even the reason the series is well known for. They arent necessary to the uniqueness of the series at all. You're obviously exagerating...

And the ME series is not even very unique either, many treads have been made about several plot ideas Bioware borrowed from other scifi works. What makes the series sucessfull is the fact that they united several old ideas and put them together in the franchise...

they are man, the series is named for them they are what makes the "mass effect" it said so in the prolog even.
P.S. is that the real Mr. biscuit or just someone with the name? if its really him hope the move is going good.

Modifié par zovoes, 08 avril 2012 - 05:50 .

[RiouHotaru]

For anyone still arguing about the Citadel, it doesn't say HOW low orbit it is. There's no indication any of the pieces drifted low enough to get pulled into Earth's atmosphere. Considering the Citadel was far enough away to maintain it's own orbit when the Reapers dragged it away.

As for everything else that was that by Patrick?

I can see where some of this information was interpreted incorrectly. I mean, I didn't think everyone on the Citadel was dead. I assumed folks either evacuated or got away. As for things being cut or left out? Yeah, development. They can't include everything they'd want to include. Sometimes things have to be cut.

I'm amused people actually believed relays exploded Arrival-style. There was a clear and definitive difference in the circumstances.

[apieros]

pikey1969 wrote...

the mass relay phenomenon is WHY the game is called mass effect.

I agree. And what just kills me is that the Antis, supposedly the most devoted fans, the "better fans Sheperd deserves", are the ones slagging down the game.

"The codex is bull****. The game isn't strongly internally consistent. Just ignore it."

EDIT: Forgot one. "Mass Effect isn't about characters. Characterization is meaningless."

"The mass relays are generic sci-fi. They're not distinctive at all."

So Mass Effect is generic sci fi, according to these guys. Unremarkable. Pedestrian. Run-of-the-mill.

And these are the die-hard fans we're all supposed to emulate?

Personally, I think they're wrong. I think the Mass Relays were distinctive, and a trademark feature of the game (like the chainsaw bayonet is a trademark feature of Gears of War). I also think the codex was one of the game's strong points (same with DA:O), proof that they bothered to think their universe through.

But I guess if you're going to defend the ending at all costs, and praise it as glorious perfection descended directly from the Gods of Gaming, you're going to end up saying a lot of silly things.

Because the ending was ****. And if you have to denigrate signature features of the game just to praise it...

Well, maybe you should rethink your position.

Modifié par apieros, 08 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[Total Biscuit]

tobito113 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...
The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

Nonsense, the relays are not even the reason the series is well known for. They arent necessary to the uniqueness of the series at all. You're obviously exagerating...

And the ME series is not even very unique either, many treads have been made about several plot ideas Bioware borrowed from other scifi works. What makes the series sucessfull is the fact that they united several old ideas and put them together in the franchise...

Never said it was the reason it was well known, and I never said it didn't have anything in common with other universes. The fact I specifically stated there were other similar shows in its genre should have tipped you off.
 
That doesn't change the fact hat without the Relays he potential stories you can tell in the Mass Effect universe are more like the ones told in most other sciFi universes out there. And the vast majority of t the stories you could tell would still be possible with the relays still around.

About all we're gaining is stories of people trying to get home against great odds, which you shouldn't need to be told is an incredibly common plot in all fiction, not just Sci Fi, where it's also an incredibly common story set up.

[Versidious]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Based off of this, an easy out for the "trapped in Sol" problem is that everyone upgrades their ships with Reaper cores and gets homes within months using Super Saiyan FTL.

Easy ME4 set-up: Everyone gets indoctrinated from this and tries to bring back the Reapers. Zombie-cyborg Shepard has to stop them!

[Tirranek]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm amused people actually believed relays exploded Arrival-style. There was a clear and definitive difference in the circumstances.

I got the feeling that this was a case of people trying to find as much bad with the situation as they could, adding weight to their argument. Any positive conclusion could be seen as weakening the position that the ending 100% destroys the series. The whole 'Lots of Speculation' angle, weak as it might be, is a handshake that a lot of fans seem unwilling to make.

[TheMerchantMan]

Surprisingly I now feel about 120% better about the endings. Mostly because:

1. One of the writer's is at least hinting that he didn't like it either. Which gives me hope they weren't all blind to it.

2. It's confirmed that there is going to be an explanation for Joker bailing on us, not that I think that ought to be kept anyways.

3. Apparently FTL travel isn't going to be impossible, I'm not sure how they're going to rectify it, but hearing it from a writer makes me more confident that there is a real in-universe alternative.

4. Not everyone on the citadel died. Ergo. I don't have to play the game with the nihilistic death march feeling that everyone I help and talk to will die by the end...

[Jamie9]

I really hope they make the amount of people who survive the Citadel attack dependent on your Citadel Defense Force score.

So your choices matter that bit more.

[RiouHotaru]

jumpingkaede wrote...

I didn't see the negative spin at all.

A lot of the answers were helpful.  I think we all KNEW there would be resource limitations.  That's obvious even to the most passionate/idealistic retaker/fan.  What we don't LIKE is that a man who should be aware of the resource limitations TOLD US that things would be in the game as late as January 2012 when they weren't.

Other than that, it was good to hear Weekes' take on this.  I do wonder how in touch he is with the Hudson/Walters ending duo though.  Weekes seems to believe there's no Mass Relay destruction and no Galactic Dark Age... which a lot of pro-enders also believe.

But that's directly at odds with Walters, who wrote the ending, penning in"Galactic Dark Age" in his ending notes. 

lol. 

That depends on how you define "Galactic Dark Age".  I mean really, conventional FTL is still very much slower than Relays, and there's still the issue of the damage done to each civilization.  It'll be decades, if not longer before the various races are back in full swing.

As for the "negative spin", I think he's referring to the mentions of development time.  People are taking his answers to assume "Things were rushed."  The fact the EC was already on their DLC list and got re-prioritized means it was already in the works.  Jessica during a Reddit intervew stated "There are a lot of things that got cut that would get made into DLC."

[Kanon777]

pikey1969 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...
The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

Nonsense, the relays are not even the reason the series is well known for. They arent necessary to the uniqueness of the series at all. You're obviously exagerating...

And the ME series is not even very unique either, many treads have been made about several plot ideas Bioware borrowed from other scifi works. What makes the series sucessfull is the fact that they united several old ideas and put them together in the franchise...

your opinion is no less subjective than his.

to anyone that bothered reading the unskippable text scroll in the beginning of the first game, it is the mass relay system that leaps mankind forward into galactic travel and the world it revealed to it, just as it had for all the other galactic races in the past.

the mass relay phenomenon is WHY the game is called mass effect.

If you actually bothered to read the initial text, you would know that its not the mass relay discovery that was the turning point, it was the this discovery of the Mass Effect.

And the "Mass Effect" is still working even without the relays... What makes you think the galaxy wont make some new FTL based on mass effect. A new relay system, or something diferent. The destruction of the relays does not remove the uniqueness of the story. Its is a turning point in galatic history, nothing else. Now they have the chance to make new discoveries and technolopgies that will replace the Relays. 

[The Wumpus]

Tirranek wrote...

Ok I have an honest question for people, something I haven't been able to figure out:

Do you think the dislike for the starkid would have been nearly as strong if it took a form other than that child? Say it was actually a LI, or if you had no LI, a 'face-face' confrontation with your own likeness. It would have been a voice and image you were familiar with over 3 games (probably), instead of being 'dictated to' by someone with whom you had no real connection? Even if the actual gist of what was being said didn't change, would this aesthetic difference have altered your opinion in any way?

Huh. That could've been interesting. I'd have liked that.

[Tirranek]

RiouHotaru wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

I didn't see the negative spin at all.

A lot of the answers were helpful.  I think we all KNEW there would be resource limitations.  That's obvious even to the most passionate/idealistic retaker/fan.  What we don't LIKE is that a man who should be aware of the resource limitations TOLD US that things would be in the game as late as January 2012 when they weren't.

Other than that, it was good to hear Weekes' take on this.  I do wonder how in touch he is with the Hudson/Walters ending duo though.  Weekes seems to believe there's no Mass Relay destruction and no Galactic Dark Age... which a lot of pro-enders also believe.

But that's directly at odds with Walters, who wrote the ending, penning in"Galactic Dark Age" in his ending notes. 

lol. 

That depends on how you define "Galactic Dark Age".  I mean really, conventional FTL is still very much slower than Relays, and there's still the issue of the damage done to each civilization.  It'll be decades, if not longer before the various races are back in full swing.

As for the "negative spin", I think he's referring to the mentions of development time.  People are taking his answers to assume "Things were rushed."  The fact the EC was already on their DLC list and got re-prioritized means it was already in the works.  Jessica during a Reddit intervew stated "There are a lot of things that got cut that would get made into DLC."

If it was planned for a later release that pretty much confirms that they were hoping to allow enough time for lots of speculation...from everyone.

[RiouHotaru]

Tirranek wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm amused people actually believed relays exploded Arrival-style. There was a clear and definitive difference in the circumstances.

I got the feeling that this was a case of people trying to find as much bad with the situation as they could, adding weight to their argument. Any positive conclusion could be seen as weakening the position that the ending 100% destroys the series. The whole 'Lots of Speculation' angle, weak as it might be, is a handshake that a lot of fans seem unwilling to make.

I never understood this angle.  The Angry One and a few ex-friends of mine did the same thing.  They looked for the worst possible spin to anything that happened as a result of the endings, completely ignoring any "hope spots".

I'd even suggested the possibility of using the Reapers as scrap material and got scoffed and laughed at.

[Kanon777]

Total Biscuit wrote...
That doesn't change the fact hat without the Relays he potential stories you can tell in the Mass Effect universe are more like the ones told in most other sciFi universes out there. And the vast majority of t the stories you could tell would still be possible with the relays still around.

Wrong, without the MR the potential of stories is even greater, because now there might be a NEW form of interestelar travel, and people will be able to explore more than the 3% of galatic space. The relays were stalling the galactic society and economicaly preventing them to explore even more new things and new possibilities. 

[Moogberg]

apieros wrote...
Easy CYA they never bothered to do. So not only is it a plothole, it's a plothole with a trivial solution that was never implemented. This points up the fact that the team needed 6-12 more months to think through the ass-pull WTF ending, then rethink it, then come up with something that wasn't total ****.

If the team had gotten an additional 6-12 months and the budget that goes with it, they wouldn't have spent all this time on thinking about the ending. They would have designed other missions, refined the rendering engine, imagined some new stuff and maybe... maybe... spent a few days or weeks on the ending.

Producing a successful game is a matter of resource allocation. When you have illimited resources, you can go all George Broussard and completely lose focus.
The Star Wars original trilogy was developed with budget constraints with all three episodes. SW was funded by Fox, and the executives there didn't have much faith in the result. Empire was funded by Lucas through the money that came from tie-in products, but he had to bet everything he had on it. Jedi was funded by Lucas after a divorce that cost him a lot.
The prequels were produced in house by a George Lucas who knew he wouldn't lose his shirt.
Guess which trilogy was the more successful artistically speaking.

Concerning the whole ending fiasco, we have a story in which there are actually no clear good and bad guys. We assumed that EA were the bad guys, Bioware the good guys.
Apart from a few suspicious requests (such as multiplayer), it turns tout that EA mostly made the big mistake not to follow closely enough how the game would turn out and were unable to discover the ending issues before development was over. They didn't implemented proper quality control for the writing.
Bioware took advantage of the liberties they were given to do some great stuff but screwed a small part of the game which turned out to be crucial and created a whole controversy.
Even inside the team, there were no ill intentions, just a problem of communication.

And yet, the player ends up to be on the losing side because of these blunders.

Regarding Patrick Weekes as the new lead writer, as somebody asked on the first page, I'm not sure about that. The only thing I'm sure of is that Weekes proposes articulate solutions to most of the plot holes and inconsistencies that he's heard of and he's able on his own to describe what's wrong in clear terms to fix it later. He's at least talented at script doctoring, which is quite a rare skill.

Modifié par Moogberg, 08 avril 2012 - 06:09 .

[Total Biscuit]

tobito113 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...
The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

Nonsense, the relays are not even the reason the series is well known for. They arent necessary to the uniqueness of the series at all. You're obviously exagerating...

And the ME series is not even very unique either, many treads have been made about several plot ideas Bioware borrowed from other scifi works. What makes the series sucessfull is the fact that they united several old ideas and put them together in the franchise...

your opinion is no less subjective than his.

to anyone that bothered reading the unskippable text scroll in the beginning of the first game, it is the mass relay system that leaps mankind forward into galactic travel and the world it revealed to it, just as it had for all the other galactic races in the past.

the mass relay phenomenon is WHY the game is called mass effect.

If you actually bothered to read the initial text, you would know that its not the mass relay discovery that was the turning point, it was the this discovery of the Mass Effect.

And the "Mass Effect" is still working even without the relays... What makes you think the galaxy wont make some new FTL based on mass effect. A new relay system, or something diferent. The destruction of the relays does not remove the uniqueness of the story. Its is a turning point in galatic history, nothing else. Now they have the chance to make new discoveries and technolopgies that will replace the Relays. 

The uniqueness isn't in the stories, it's in the SETTING. Mass Effect FTL isn't really anyy different to warp drives, hyperspace, or Starbursts, the set up of the galaxy being travers able instantaneously via relays, with FTL being used to explore normally from those hub points, THAT'S what sets ME apart from the crowd, and allows it to tell stories no other big name Sci Fi universe CAN.

Without the relays we're now far closer to other fictional universes in the same genre, even if their are other big differences, they're not as capable of delivering a new set up for plots as the relays already provided.

[Tirranek]

The Wumpus wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Ok I have an honest question for people, something I haven't been able to figure out:

Do you think the dislike for the starkid would have been nearly as strong if it took a form other than that child? Say it was actually a LI, or if you had no LI, a 'face-face' confrontation with your own likeness. It would have been a voice and image you were familiar with over 3 games (probably), instead of being 'dictated to' by someone with whom you had no real connection? Even if the actual gist of what was being said didn't change, would this aesthetic difference have altered your opinion in any way?

Huh. That could've been interesting. I'd have liked that.

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Imagine if it was Liara giving that speech. Even if the entity is only assuming her likeness,  the wide-eyed archeologist we've known over 3 games would suddenly appear as the source of all the answers. If it was Tali, the Synthetic vs Organic argument would have a different tone to it (albeit seemed even more stupid if you made peace with them.) Maybe I'm a little biased as well but the fact my Shepard didn't have time for any of that there romance nonsense, having a face-face confrontation would have been a great way to have an introverted conversation .

[Kanon777]

Total Biscuit wrote...
The uniqueness isn't in the stories, it's in the SETTING. Mass Effect FTL isn't really anyy different to warp drives, hyperspace, or Starbursts, the set up of the galaxy being travers able instantaneously via relays, with FTL being used to explore normally from those hub points, THAT'S what sets ME apart from the crowd, and allows it to tell stories no other big name Sci Fi universe CAN.

Without the relays we're now far closer to other fictional universes in the same genre, even if their are other big differences, they're not as capable of delivering a new set up for plots as the relays already provided.

Destroying the MR will force the society to make something else. The relays are NOT the core reason for the uniqueness of the series, you are trying to argue that we now have less options when we actually have many new possibilities, new methods of crossing the galaxy that can be even better than the normal relays...

Modifié par tobito113, 08 avril 2012 - 06:15 .