1895 réponses à ce sujet

[Joeyv]

Total Biscuit wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...
The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

Nonsense, the relays are not even the reason the series is well known for. They arent necessary to the uniqueness of the series at all. You're obviously exagerating...

And the ME series is not even very unique either, many treads have been made about several plot ideas Bioware borrowed from other scifi works. What makes the series sucessfull is the fact that they united several old ideas and put them together in the franchise...

your opinion is no less subjective than his.

to anyone that bothered reading the unskippable text scroll in the beginning of the first game, it is the mass relay system that leaps mankind forward into galactic travel and the world it revealed to it, just as it had for all the other galactic races in the past.

the mass relay phenomenon is WHY the game is called mass effect.

If you actually bothered to read the initial text, you would know that its not the mass relay discovery that was the turning point, it was the this discovery of the Mass Effect.

And the "Mass Effect" is still working even without the relays... What makes you think the galaxy wont make some new FTL based on mass effect. A new relay system, or something diferent. The destruction of the relays does not remove the uniqueness of the story. Its is a turning point in galatic history, nothing else. Now they have the chance to make new discoveries and technolopgies that will replace the Relays. 

The uniqueness isn't in the stories, it's in the SETTING. Mass Effect FTL isn't really anyy different to warp drives, hyperspace, or Starbursts, the set up of the galaxy being travers able instantaneously via relays, with FTL being used to explore normally from those hub points, THAT'S what sets ME apart from the crowd, and allows it to tell stories no other big name Sci Fi universe CAN.

Without the relays we're now far closer to other fictional universes in the same genre, even if their are other big differences, they're not as capable of delivering a new set up for plots as the relays already provided.

Nah I don't think it is so unique.
Stargate does nearly the same thing, with normal ftl travel and the much faster gate-travel
Also, one of the biggest MMO's, EVE Online, has identical space travel as Mass Effect; also using relays.

Modifié par Joeyv, 08 avril 2012 - 06:15 .

[Grasich]

That... actually really helps make the ending less awful. Not to say it's not bad, it still is, but at least I don't see it as depressing now.

If they could just redo the part with Starchild, that would go a long way to making this better.

EDIT: My big question now is... why didn't they just release a press release saying this stuff from the very beginning? That would have curbed a huge amount of the rage.

Modifié par Grasich, 08 avril 2012 - 06:17 .

[Tirranek]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm amused people actually believed relays exploded Arrival-style. There was a clear and definitive difference in the circumstances.

I got the feeling that this was a case of people trying to find as much bad with the situation as they could, adding weight to their argument. Any positive conclusion could be seen as weakening the position that the ending 100% destroys the series. The whole 'Lots of Speculation' angle, weak as it might be, is a handshake that a lot of fans seem unwilling to make.

I never understood this angle.  The Angry One and a few ex-friends of mine did the same thing.  They looked for the worst possible spin to anything that happened as a result of the endings, completely ignoring any "hope spots".

I'd even suggested the possibility of using the Reapers as scrap material and got scoffed and laughed at.

Not wanting to compare ME3 to a breakup or anything, but my impressions were that say you'd just had a rough end to a relationship, you probably wouldn't be very inclined to consider the good that came from it.

[pikey1969]

tobito113 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...
The relays, and all their story potential, was one of the main things that set mass effect apart from the crowd, that allowed it to tell stories not possible in any other setting, and without them it's no different to the potential Farscape, Star Trek, or even Star Wars already has.

Nonsense, the relays are not even the reason the series is well known for. They arent necessary to the uniqueness of the series at all. You're obviously exagerating...

And the ME series is not even very unique either, many treads have been made about several plot ideas Bioware borrowed from other scifi works. What makes the series sucessfull is the fact that they united several old ideas and put them together in the franchise...

your opinion is no less subjective than his.

to anyone that bothered reading the unskippable text scroll in the beginning of the first game, it is the mass relay system that leaps mankind forward into galactic travel and the world it revealed to it, just as it had for all the other galactic races in the past.

the mass relay phenomenon is WHY the game is called mass effect.

If you actually bothered to read the initial text, you would know that its not the mass relay discovery that was the turning point, it was the this discovery of the Mass Effect.

And the "Mass Effect" is still working even without the relays... What makes you think the galaxy wont make some new FTL based on mass effect. A new relay system, or something diferent. The destruction of the relays does not remove the uniqueness of the story. Its is a turning point in galatic history, nothing else. Now they have the chance to make new discoveries and technolopgies that will replace the Relays. 

A. What?

B. If you're saying what I think you're saying, that is clearly no less an interpretation than what any of us are saying.

The original Mass effect 1 intro... (the very first piece of Mass Effect lore provided after Shepard's intro)...

In the year 2148, explorers on Mars discovered the remains of an ancient spacefaring civilization. In the decades that followed, these mysterious artifacts revealed startling new technologies, enabling travel to the furthest stars. The basis for this incredible technology was a force that controled the very fabric of space and time.

They called it the greatest discovery in human history.

The civilizations of the galaxy called it...

(Insert Mass effect title graphic)

It reads to me like the Mass Relays are a VERY integral component of the "Mass Effect" phenomena. An incredible technology that accelerates a civilization reaches to the universe connected by the said technology. A critical component of the 'discoveries' that accelerated the technological process of the humans, and undoubtedly the rest of the members of the galactic community.

Mass Relays.

Modifié par pikey1969, 08 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[DESTRAUDO]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm amused people actually believed relays exploded Arrival-style. There was a clear and definitive difference in the circumstances.

I got the feeling that this was a case of people trying to find as much bad with the situation as they could, adding weight to their argument. Any positive conclusion could be seen as weakening the position that the ending 100% destroys the series. The whole 'Lots of Speculation' angle, weak as it might be, is a handshake that a lot of fans seem unwilling to make.

I never understood this angle.  The Angry One and a few ex-friends of mine did the same thing.  They looked for the worst possible spin to anything that happened as a result of the endings, completely ignoring any "hope spots".

I'd even suggested the possibility of using the Reapers as scrap material and got scoffed and laughed at.

I have been saying everything weekes has said for weeks (no pun intended) and all i have been is dismissed as ignorant of the ending and the franchise. Told to read the codex.  When i told people the relays did not destroy everything and showed proof i was laughed at, when i showed a tweet from bioware staff saying the waves did not kill people i was told that it did not matter. On standard ftl travel laughed at and told it would be impossible to travel between systems even though you do it throughout the game.

 People despised the ending, and they would accept nothing but the most negative possible assumptions of every variable and i totally agree that they did it and still do it to make their position as valid as possible. While i am glad that there is now a big official arrow through all of their massively negative assumptions , i suspect a hardcore will still hold to them as 'reality' and any positive things being the writers going against the lore of the universe to please fans.  

Modifié par DESTRAUDO, 08 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[Kanon777]

Joeyv wrote...
Nah I don't think it is so unique.
Stargate does nearly the same thing, with normal ftl travel and the much faster gate-travel
Also, one of the biggest MMO's, EVE Online, has identical space travel as Mass Effect; also using relays.

Oh noes Mass Effect has lost its incredbly unique system that sets it appart from EVERY OTHER SCIFI THAT WAS EVER MADE!!!!111one. We just lost countless possible storylines now...

[kimuji]

tobito113 wrote...

Destroying the MR will force the society to make something else. The relays are NOT the core reason for the uniqueness of the series, you are trying to argue that we now have less options when we actually have many new possibilities, new methods of crossing the galaxy that can be even better than the normal relays...

I see you are using Patrick Weekes arguments, maybe he was right to speak with the fans after all, he gave you new ideas.

Modifié par kimuji, 08 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[Candidate 88766]

Some very interesting stuff here. I'm hoping the Extended Cut will clarify what the Keepers did that prevented the Reapers deactivating the Relay network. I always assumed it was TIM - he may not have needed Shepard, but he needed the Crucible to reach the Citadel for his plan to work (which begs the question of why he made the Reapers move the Citadel to Earth, but that's another matter).

[pikey1969]

Btw, I am not saying that there is no way forward after destroying the relays.

That said, it's also rather silly that argue that the Mass Relays were NOT a critical component of what the Mass Effect universe was and what made it unique/appeal to its fans.

[apieros]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm amused people actually believed relays exploded Arrival-style.

So, I just want to clarify your opinion here...

You think that it's "amusing" that, when Arrival clearly presented what happens when a Mass Relay explodes (wipes out all life in the system), and the codex itself says this is what happens, and absolutely nothing else in the game anywhere says otherwise...

You think its amusing that people believe this? Why?

Do you also think it's amusing that people believe that "FTL engines" move faster-than-light? Or that the Alliance has an Embassy on the Crucible? Or that Eden Prime is an Earth colony?

"LOL, people think Eden Prime is an Earth Colony. How amusing."

So, when people believe what the game tells them, it's amusing? WTF?

Just so I understand, is there anything else that the game establishes as utter truth, that you expect us to reject? Humans are human, perhaps? Earth is in the Sol system? Tuchanka is a Krogan planet?

I'm actually kind of curious. What other canon should we preemptively reject?

RiouHotaru wrote...

There was a clear and definitive difference in the circumstances.

What difference? Where is this established? What evidence is presented in the game that makes this so?

Just a hint, for future discussions: when everything in the game supports "X is true", it isn't "amusing" that people believe it. It's sane.

Claiming "X is false" with no evidence whatsoever is the bizarre position. Because there's no evidence for it.

"Sherlock Holmes was a Geth", for example. No evidence in any Holmes story, so believing this utterly is bizarre.

Your position is... odd to say the least.

[VintageUtti]

The Wumpus wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Ok I have an honest question for people, something I haven't been able to figure out:

Do you think the dislike for the starkid would have been nearly as strong if it took a form other than that child? Say it was actually a LI, or if you had no LI, a 'face-face' confrontation with your own likeness. It would have been a voice and image you were familiar with over 3 games (probably), instead of being 'dictated to' by someone with whom you had no real connection? Even if the actual gist of what was being said didn't change, would this aesthetic difference have altered your opinion in any way?

Huh. That could've been interesting. I'd have liked that.

I still don't like the concept of being forced into 3 decisions which turn out to have the same outcomes anyway, but if the star child was replaced with Avina it would have been a lot easier to swallow.

[Kanon777]

pikey1969 wrote...
It reads to me like the Mass Relays are a VERY integral component of the "Mass Effect" phenomena. An incredible technology that accelerates a civilization's technology and greatly expanding its reaches to the universe connected by the said technology.
Mass Relays.

No, it reads to me that MASS EFFECT is the integral element of the story that makes it interesting. With a new method of crossing the stars that would function with the ME that particular text could be reused for a new game about the series with 0 inconsistencies... 

[Joeyv]

tobito113 wrote...

Joeyv wrote...
Nah I don't think it is so unique.
Stargate does nearly the same thing, with normal ftl travel and the much faster gate-travel
Also, one of the biggest MMO's, EVE Online, has identical space travel as Mass Effect; also using relays.

Oh noes Mass Effect has lost its incredbly unique system that sets it appart from EVERY OTHER SCIFI THAT WAS EVER MADE!!!!111one. We just lost countless possible storylines now...

Is this unconstructed message an offence to my statement or on the one I was commenting on?
Because I don't really get you.
The guy is saying Mass Effect is unique because of the relays. I don't think it is. For clearance.

[jumpingkaede]

apieros wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

If Bioware has to alter the Codex AFTER the ending

Wasn't I was suggesting. I pointed out that, yes, the "relays don't really explode" is a plothole. But it's one that could easily have been excused before the game shipped, had they taken the (literally) 5 minutes to add the following caveat to the codex:

"When destroyed, relays explode. Though some have speculated this isn't always the case."

Easy CYA they never bothered to do. So not only is it a plothole, it's a plothole with a trivial solution that was never implemented. This points up the fact that the team needed 6-12 more months to think through the ass-pull WTF ending, then rethink it, then come up with something that wasn't total ****.

See, the previously cited example of the ME1 codex identifying Sovereign as a Geth ship doesn't make ME3's ending any better. In fact, it makes it a worse example of ass-pulling.

We learned in the game (ME1) what Sovereign truly was. We never learned any different about relays in ME3. If they wanted the relays to explode without causing a supernova, they should have established the possibility for such an event in the game as well as the codex. The writers failed to do either. It's called "exposition" (or, in screenwriting, "laying pipe"). They failed to do their job.

So, yes, you're right. And I was trying to say that.

I agree with your entire post. Sorry about the confusion.

Oh okay.  Then I guess you're also right, so yay!  A truce was reached.  

[Total Biscuit]

tobito113 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...
That doesn't change the fact hat without the Relays he potential stories you can tell in the Mass Effect universe are more like the ones told in most other sciFi universes out there. And the vast majority of t the stories you could tell would still be possible with the relays still around.

Wrong, without the MR the potential of stories is even greater, because now there might be a NEW form of interestelar travel, and people will be able to explore more than the 3% of galatic space. The relays were stalling the galactic society and economicaly preventing them to explore even more new things and new possibilities. 

That's not true. Infact it's the opposite of what's actually in the game.

The various races already have deep space exploration missions, heading out from the relays, which allows them to cover far greater ground since they can instantly call for help or get additional supplies for such missions. 

3% isn't all that's explored or ever will be. That's 3% SO FAR has been explored. They're already doing what your seeming to claim is only possible without the relays.

The only thing that would have stopped everyone eventually mapping out 100% of the galaxy was the Reapers, who are no longer a problem.

Frankly the loss of the Relays just makes this exploration harder, because everyone has fewer easily accessible resources, and fewer starting pointed, less money to pay for it with the loss of galactic trade routes, and far less back up should things go ****** up.

And it still doesn't change the fact that normal FTL travel is vastly more common in Sci Fi universes, so plots using that as the only form of travel will inevitably end up less unique, or harder to make so.

[pikey1969]

tobito113 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...
It reads to me like the Mass Relays are a VERY integral component of the "Mass Effect" phenomena. An incredible technology that accelerates a civilization's technology and greatly expanding its reaches to the universe connected by the said technology.
Mass Relays.

No, it reads to me that MASS EFFECT is the integral element of the story that makes it interesting. With a new method of crossing the stars that would function with the ME that particular text could be reused for a new game about the series with 0 inconsistencies... 

Well clearly you and I perceive and interpret/process information VERY differently.

I also have no desire to continue going in circles with you.

[MadRabbit999]

Have these been confirmed/debunked yet?

Also, if true, I love how the fans, thinks they know more about the ME universe than those who wrote it, and think they can tell us and the writers, what is plausible and what isn't...

/facepalming stuff from some of the posters here.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 08 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[Evil Minion]

tobito113 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...
It reads to me like the Mass Relays are a VERY integral component of the "Mass Effect" phenomena. An incredible technology that accelerates a civilization's technology and greatly expanding its reaches to the universe connected by the said technology.
Mass Relays.

No, it reads to me that MASS EFFECT is the integral element of the story that makes it interesting. With a new method of crossing the stars that would function with the ME that particular text could be reused for a new game about the series with 0 inconsistencies... 

Pretty much.

There's no sense in claiming the relays are the only possible "mass effect" travel technology that could possibly exist.

Oh, and I didn't watch "Star Trek" for the warp drives.

[Tirranek]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm amused people actually believed relays exploded Arrival-style. There was a clear and definitive difference in the circumstances.

I got the feeling that this was a case of people trying to find as much bad with the situation as they could, adding weight to their argument. Any positive conclusion could be seen as weakening the position that the ending 100% destroys the series. The whole 'Lots of Speculation' angle, weak as it might be, is a handshake that a lot of fans seem unwilling to make.

I never understood this angle.  The Angry One and a few ex-friends of mine did the same thing.  They looked for the worst possible spin to anything that happened as a result of the endings, completely ignoring any "hope spots".

I'd even suggested the possibility of using the Reapers as scrap material and got scoffed and laughed at.

I have been saying everything weekes has said for weeks (no pun intended) and all i have been is dismissed as ignorant of the ending and the franchise. Told to read the codex.  When i told people the relays did not destroy everything and showed proof i was laughed at, when i showed a tweet from bioware staff saying the waves did not kill people i was told that it did not matter. On standard ftl travel laughed at and told it would be impossible to travel between systems even though you do it throughout the game.

 People despised the ending, and they would accept anything but the most negative possible assumptions of every variable and i totally agree that they did it and still do it to make their position as valid as possible. While i am glad that there is now a big official arrow through all of their massively negative assumptions , i suspect a hardcore will still hold to them as 'reality' and any positive things being the writers going against the lore of the universe to please fans.  

I feel you, buddy, that was pretty much my experience too. To put my feelings of the ending into a Timeline (keep in mind I had 5000+ ems and picked destroy:

"I killed the Reapers, saved everyone, AND lived! HA!  That's was AWESOME ....Why did the relays have to explode though? And where was Joker going? :huh:"

...

"Oh god, the Relays exploded...All those ships, all those people, and all their needing to eat. They're screwed aren't they? And Joker,  why did you run away with my friends to starve?? You suck! Speaking of dying, all those people on the Citadel.I didn't really save anyone, did I? :crying:"

...

"Actually, there is this...and that....And I suppose this would have meant that that actually happened, and this isn't necessarily going to screw this up as much as I thought. Hmmm. This is quite an interesting situation actually. Time to speculate everyone! .... Anyone...? .... :("


Then this happened.

Modifié par Tirranek, 08 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[NPH11]

Certainly some good information here, makes me a little more hopeful for the EC.

Still not pleased with the overall lack of choice however, which was one of my major issues with the ending.

Ultimately, I just don't understand why they thought information like this wasn't needed in the actual endings.

Also, I agree that the Mass Relays did make the ME Universe unique in it's own way, but it's not the single defining factor. It's the races and cultures that make the ME Universe unique. Not the mode of transportation.

And even with FTL, I'm fairly certain that most planets are still a pretty hefty journey away from each-other. It's not Star Wars-style instantanious.

Modifié par NPH11, 08 avril 2012 - 06:25 .

[Kanon777]

kimuji wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Destroying the MR will force the society to make something else. The relays are NOT the core reason for the uniqueness of the series, you are trying to argue that we now have less options when we actually have many new possibilities, new methods of crossing the galaxy that can be even better than the normal relays...

I see you are using Patrick Weekes arguments, maybe he was right to speak with the fans after all, he gave you new ideas.

He gave me nothing, ive been repeating this on this forums for over a month. But it seems now that people are actually reading my words instead of just going "ignore the pro-ender troll"...

The reason why im neither happy or sad over what patrick said in this interview is because i could figure out 90% of what he said on my own when i finished the game (except for the citadel people surviving, i had no idea about that codex line)...

[DESTRAUDO]

apieros wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm amused people actually believed relays exploded Arrival-style.

So, I just want to clarify your opinion here...

You think that it's "amusing" that, when Arrival clearly presented what happens when a Mass Relay explodes (wipes out all life in the system), and the codex itself says this is what happens, and absolutely nothing else in the game anywhere says otherwise...

You think its amusing that people believe this? Why?

Do you also think it's amusing that people believe that "FTL engines" move faster-than-light? Or that the Alliance has an Embassy on the Crucible? Or that Eden Prime is an Earth colony?

"LOL, people think Eden Prime is an Earth Colony. How amusing."

So, when people believe what the game tells them, it's amusing? WTF?

Just so I understand, is there anything else that the game establishes as utter truth, that you expect us to reject? Humans are human, perhaps? Earth is in the Sol system? Tuchanka is a Krogan planet?

I'm actually kind of curious. What other canon should we preemptively reject?

RiouHotaru wrote...

There was a clear and definitive difference in the circumstances.

What difference? Where is this established? What evidence is presented in the game that makes this so?

Just a hint, for future discussions: when everything in the game supports "X is true", it isn't "amusing" that people believe it. It's sane.

Claiming "X is false" with no evidence whatsoever is the bizarre position. Because there's no evidence for it.

"Sherlock Holmes was a Geth", for example. No evidence in any Holmes story, so believing this utterly is bizarre.

Your position is... odd to say the least.

Facts

On high ems all the people on earth survive the citadel wave. Fact

The citadel is a giant mass relay. Fact

On high ems destroy shepard survives. Fact 

Since shepard lives, that means he survived both the catalyst wave and the charon relay wave, therefore the waves are not destructive to organic tissue.  Fact.

[kimuji]

Mass relays are part of the Reapers' trap, Mass Effect absolutely needed them to be consistent, they are part of the plot.

[Kanon777]

Joeyv wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Joeyv wrote...
Nah I don't think it is so unique.
Stargate does nearly the same thing, with normal ftl travel and the much faster gate-travel
Also, one of the biggest MMO's, EVE Online, has identical space travel as Mass Effect; also using relays.

Oh noes Mass Effect has lost its incredbly unique system that sets it appart from EVERY OTHER SCIFI THAT WAS EVER MADE!!!!111one. We just lost countless possible storylines now...

Is this unconstructed message an offence to my statement or on the one I was commenting on?
Because I don't really get you.
The guy is saying Mass Effect is unique because of the relays. I don't think it is. For clearance.

I agree with you, the guy is just exagerating to have a reason to be angry/displeased...

[Evil Minion]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Have these been confirmed/debunked yet?

Also, if true, I love how the fans, thinks they know more about the ME universe than those who wrote it, and think they can tell us and the writers, what is plausible and what isn't...

/facepalming stuff from some of the posters here.

There's "fanwank" that puts a positive spin on the endings, and then there's "fanwank" that seeks to put as negative a spin as possible on the endings.

This is "fanwank" of the later sort.

Weekes: "The relays didn't actually blow-up."

Fanwanker: "Yes they did because I'm extrapolating from the 4 seconds of footage I saw of the relays doing....something."