1895 réponses à ce sujet

[jumpingkaede]

tobito113 wrote...

Why are people always upset about retcons? Imo a simple retcon here and there is much better than trying to make a quick fix and tap the plothole (like Arrival did with Mass Relays exploding, i would prefer if they just scraped the "relays can resist supernovas" idea).

I'm upset about retcons because I feel like I wasted my time playing through ME3.  (And by extension ME1 and ME2).

And there are varying degrees of retconning.  The thermal clip thing could be considered a retcon that everyone accepted as a gameplay mechanic.  The Arrival/ME3 ending one feels like a bit of an asspull.  Especially because my impression from Arrival was that it was already well-established in the ME universe that Mass Relay explosion = everyone dead.

Of course, it's possible that Space Magic says otherwise in this instance but it just results in a collective, "Huh?"  Better if they had never done the endings that way in the first place (or just not shown the Mass Relays exploding... they could have simply deactivated or something) but it's too late for that now, eh? 

(Although in full disclosure, I'm bumming my way through ME2 right now and impressed all over again by how much better it is.  If ME3 had been a 40 hour expansion/ending to ME2 using the ME2 engine, journal, sidequest system, etc., I would have been ecstatic)

Evil Minion wrote...

There's
"fanwank" that puts a positive spin on the endings, and then there's
"fanwank" that seeks to put as negative a spin as possible on the
endings.

This is "fanwank" of the later sort.

Weekes: "The relays didn't actually blow-up."

Fanwanker: "Yes they did because I'm extrapolating from the 4 seconds of footage I saw of the relays doing....something."

What?  The relays clearly blew up (in Synthesis and Destroy).  That's not even a point of argument. 

I think the only remaining question is what exactly happened AFTER they blew up.

I hope Weekes doesn't say the Relays didn't blow up because if that's what Hudson/Walters has in mind then they failed to an even greater extent than I could have imagined.  Next they'll be telling us that the Reapers weren't actually destroyed.  Or the Citadel didn't explode (in 2/3 endings).  Or the Normandy didn't crash.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 08 avril 2012 - 06:30 .

[kimuji]

tobito113 wrote...

He gave me nothing, ive been repeating this on this forums for over a month. But it seems now that people are actually reading my words instead of just going "ignore the pro-ender troll"...

I give you a hint why people think you are a troll:



Plus, if you've been repeating this on this forum over a month you should be happy that more people see things that way now Patrick Weekes said something similar.

Modifié par kimuji, 08 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[Joeyv]

tobito113 wrote...

Joeyv wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Joeyv wrote...
Nah I don't think it is so unique.
Stargate does nearly the same thing, with normal ftl travel and the much faster gate-travel
Also, one of the biggest MMO's, EVE Online, has identical space travel as Mass Effect; also using relays.

Oh noes Mass Effect has lost its incredbly unique system that sets it appart from EVERY OTHER SCIFI THAT WAS EVER MADE!!!!111one. We just lost countless possible storylines now...

Is this unconstructed message an offence to my statement or on the one I was commenting on?
Because I don't really get you.
The guy is saying Mass Effect is unique because of the relays. I don't think it is. For clearance.

I agree with you, the guy is just exagerating to have a reason to be angry/displeased...

Okay. My apologies.

[apieros]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Facts

I not going to disagree with you, just point out... all these facts have nothing to do with what I was saying. They do not bear on my points or position at all.

Sorry. Not trying to insult you, just a little confused.

Modifié par apieros, 08 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[UrgentArchengel]

Just to let people know, there is conversations on the citadel and other hints that they (the people of the MEverse) have been considering a way to travel without Relays. On the Normandy Docking bay, their are the 2 soldiers or whatever that bring it up later in the game. One of Diana Allers's interviews blacks out on the question, "What if the Mass Relays were destroyed?" Just adding more fuel for discussion.

[pikey1969]

kimuji wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

He gave me nothing, ive been repeating this on this forums for over a month. But it seems now that people are actually reading my words instead of just going "ignore the pro-ender troll"...

I give you a hint why people think you are a troll:

he's never condescending nor does he ever conduct himself in discussions in a way that finalizes his opinions/interpretations as being facts/final.

oh wait.

[MadRabbit999]

Evil Minion wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Have these been confirmed/debunked yet?

Also, if true, I love how the fans, thinks they know more about the ME universe than those who wrote it, and think they can tell us and the writers, what is plausible and what isn't...

/facepalming stuff from some of the posters here.

There's "fanwank" that puts a positive spin on the endings, and then there's "fanwank" that seeks to put as negative a spin as possible on the endings.

This is "fanwank" of the later sort.

Weekes: "The relays didn't actually blow-up."

Fanwanker: "Yes they did because I'm extrapolating from the 4 seconds of footage I saw of the relays doing....something."

Some people hate being proven wrong no matter how black on white the facts are... like I used to say to a friend "Dude, even if aliens were butt-probing you this instant you would be denying their existence".

Some fans here are too hardcore for their own good.

[jumpingkaede]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Facts

On high ems all the people on earth survive the citadel wave. Fact

The citadel is a giant mass relay. Fact

On high ems destroy shepard survives. Fact 

Since shepard lives, that means he survived both the catalyst wave and the charon relay wave, therefore the waves are not destructive to organic tissue.  Fact.

We're talking about two different things.  You're talking about the blast from the Citadel.  We're conjecturing about the blast that results when a Mass Relay explodes (or is destroyed).

If you wanted to talk about the Citadel Blast it's even more obvious that it's not destructive to organic tissue because we see the wave hit the soldiers (on high EMS) and they're fine.

(Not sure how that fits in with the Normandy though or what that bodes for the rest of the Fleet).

[NPH11]

I don't think it's fair to assume those who thought the Relays went supernova were fools. We've been told multiple times that Relays are nearly indestructible, the only time we saw one destroyed, it went supernova, the relays clearly explode in the endings and it cuts to a shot of a galaxy map showing large "shockwaves".

Even though I didn't think it, it was a pretty fair assumption, certainly not "amusing"

[apieros]

jumpingkaede wrote...

I hope Weekes doesn't say the Relays didn't blow up because if that's what Hudson/Walters has in mind then they failed to an even greater extent than I could have imagined. Or the Citadel didn't explode (in 2/3 endings).  Or the Normandy didn't crash.

Actually, I hope they do. I hope they introduce new cinematics that include none of these three. Because, at this point, explaining 1 and 3 is pretty much impossible without massive retcons.

(Not all retcons are bad. If "clarification" means retconning continuity-rupturing bull**** away, then I say "bring it on!")

[apieros]

kimuji wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

He gave me nothing, ive been repeating this on this forums for over a month. But it seems now that people are actually reading my words instead of just going "ignore the pro-ender troll"...

I give you a hint why people think you are a troll:

Plus, you know, all the trolling.

[DESTRAUDO]

jumpingkaede wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Facts

On high ems all the people on earth survive the citadel wave. Fact

The citadel is a giant mass relay. Fact

On high ems destroy shepard survives. Fact 

Since shepard lives, that means he survived both the catalyst wave and the charon relay wave, therefore the waves are not destructive to organic tissue.  Fact.

We're talking about two different things.  You're talking about the blast from the Citadel.  We're conjecturing about the blast that results when a Mass Relay explodes (or is destroyed).

If you wanted to talk about the Citadel Blast it's even more obvious that it's not destructive to organic tissue because we see the wave hit the soldiers (on high EMS) and they're fine.

(Not sure how that fits in with the Normandy though or what that bodes for the rest of the Fleet).

I'm talking about BOTH the citadel and relay waves. Shepard survives both. He survives a wave from a mass relay. That is the whole point i was making. 

[jumpingkaede]

NPH11 wrote...

I don't think it's fair to assume those who thought the Relays went supernova were fools. We've been told multiple times that Relays are nearly indestructible, the only time we saw one destroyed, it went supernova, the relays clearly explode in the endings and it cuts to a shot of a galaxy map showing large "shockwaves".

Even though I didn't think it, it was a pretty fair assumption, certainly not "amusing"

Thanks.  Really, what's missing is:

Shepard: "But... won't that result in the destruction of all the neighboring star systems?"

Catalyst: "No.  This will be a controlled deactivation."

And then the cutscene not showing the Relays... you know, exploding, and the Relay rings flying apart toward the screen. Instead we're left with the only known instance (to the gamer) of a Relay exploding is catastrophic.  And then Bioware (not the game, not the codex, not the Catalyst) telling us afterward, "Yeah this was different don't worry."

DESTRAUDO wrote...

I'm talking about BOTH the citadel and
relay waves. Shepard survives both. He survives a wave from a mass
relay. That is the whole point i was making. 

Ah.  I think at this point we all have to accept that they were "controlled explosions".  It just was presented very, very poorly in the context of the game up to that point.  Perhaps extended cut DLC will have something like the above.

apieros wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

I
hope Weekes doesn't say the Relays didn't blow up because if that's what
Hudson/Walters has in mind then they failed to an even greater extent
than I could have imagined. Or the Citadel didn't explode (in 2/3
endings).  Or the Normandy didn't crash.

Actually, I hope
they do. I hope they introduce new cinematics that include none of
these three. Because, at this point, explaining 1 and 3 is pretty much
impossible without massive retcons.

(Not all retcons are bad. If "clarification" means retconning continuity-rupturing bull**** away, then I say "bring it on!")

lol my god how glorious would it be if Weekes could just wave his magic authorial wand and make all that disappear?  I would pay $80 for another copy of ME3 that had a different ending and got rid of all that and I am completely serious.  TAKE MY MONEY BIOWARE.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 08 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[Evil Minion]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Have these been confirmed/debunked yet?

Also, if true, I love how the fans, thinks they know more about the ME universe than those who wrote it, and think they can tell us and the writers, what is plausible and what isn't...

/facepalming stuff from some of the posters here.

There's "fanwank" that puts a positive spin on the endings, and then there's "fanwank" that seeks to put as negative a spin as possible on the endings.

This is "fanwank" of the later sort.

Weekes: "The relays didn't actually blow-up."

Fanwanker: "Yes they did because I'm extrapolating from the 4 seconds of footage I saw of the relays doing....something."

Some people hate being proven wrong no matter how black on white the facts are... like I used to say to a friend "Dude, even if aliens were butt-probing you this instant you would be denying their existence".

Some fans here are too hardcore for their own good.

And some people just seem to enjoy being angry (?).

I wasn't thrilled with everything about the ending, but, at the end of the day, it's just a videogame and videogames are TOYS.

I have about a thousand other things to expend my emotional energy on other than TOYS, like keeping my car full of gas and feeding myself.

[Kanon777]

kimuji wrote...

Mass relays are part of the Reapers' trap, Mass Effect absolutely needed them to be consistent, they are part of the plot.

They are a fundamental part of the plot, but they are not the icon of the series, the icon is the Mass Effect (and Shepard). A new FTL system would create far greaters possible storylines than staying with the relays. The relays represent the first trilogy, but are NOT what makes Mass Effect what it is.

[Evil Minion]

NPH11 wrote...

I don't think it's fair to assume those who thought the Relays went supernova were fools. We've been told multiple times that Relays are nearly indestructible, the only time we saw one destroyed, it went supernova, the relays clearly explode in the endings and it cuts to a shot of a galaxy map showing large "shockwaves".

Even though I didn't think it, it was a pretty fair assumption, certainly not "amusing"

I don't think anyone who thinks the relays blow-up are fools.

I think the designers were foolish for not making it more clear.

It looked, to me, that the relays "fell apart" more so than "exploded, but I don't know. No one knows for sure until C-DLC.

[DESTRAUDO]

apieros wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Facts

I not going to disagree with you, just point out... all these facts have nothing to do with what I was saying. They do not bear on my points or position at all.

Sorry. Not trying to insult you, just a little confused.

Apologies if i misunderstood your point, but when you said this. 

What difference? Where is this established? What evidence is presented in the game that makes this so?

Just a hint, for future discussions: when everything in the game supports "X is true", it isn't "amusing" that people believe it. It's sane.

Claiming "X is false" with no evidence whatsoever is the bizarre position. Because there's no evidence for it.

"Sherlock Holmes was a Geth", for example. No evidence in any Holmes story, so believing this utterly is bizarre.

Your position is... odd to say the least.

It suggests that everything in the game supported that the relay wave should kill.

Hence i listed the proof from the game, directly observed, that it did not kill.  Hence i disproved the position.  

[NPH11]

 So, what do we all think about Merizan's latest tweet?

Jessica Merizan ‏ @JessicaMerizan
@Ryuasiu @patrickweekes that was not am interview and it was filled with half-truths and inaccuracies. I'm actually pretty angry about it...

Modifié par NPH11, 08 avril 2012 - 06:42 .

[Cyph3rX]

Least he's trying he's trying to address the issues and reassure the fans. It's certainly better than another round of being stonewalled and getting "artistic integrity" and speculation as an answer to everything.

[Kanon777]

jumpingkaede wrote...
I'm upset about retcons because I feel like I wasted my time playing through ME3.  (And by extension ME1 and ME2).

And there are varying degrees of retconning.  The thermal clip thing could be considered a retcon that everyone accepted as a gameplay mechanic.  The Arrival/ME3 ending one feels like a bit of an asspull.  Especially because my impression from Arrival was that it was already well-established in the ME universe that Mass Relay explosion = everyone dead.

The thremal clip thing, and the end of omnigel is another of these "taping the plot hole" thing bioware likes to do. I prefer if they just pretend omnigel/thermal clips never existed in ME2 over a contrived answer...

[Neko Hibiki]

Total Biscuit wrote...

The uniqueness isn't in the stories, it's in the SETTING. Mass Effect FTL isn't really anyy different to warp drives, hyperspace, or Starbursts, the set up of the galaxy being travers able instantaneously via relays, with FTL being used to explore normally from those hub points, THAT'S what sets ME apart from the crowd, and allows it to tell stories no other big name Sci Fi universe CAN.

Without the relays we're now far closer to other fictional universes in the same genre, even if their are other big differences, they're not as capable of delivering a new set up for plots as the relays already provided.

The relays weren't that unique.

---

Jack : Daniel, dial the gate and establish a connection to the Alpha Site.

Daniel : No problem, Jack.

---

Stargate did it long before Mass Effect ever did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpgate

[jumpingkaede]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

It suggests that everything in the game supported that the relay wave should kill.

Hence i listed the proof from the game, directly observed, that it did not kill.  Hence i disproved the position.  

I would say everything in the game up until that point supported that the relay wave should kill.  Therefore, we expected that in this case the relay wave should kill.

That Bioware decided afterward that the relay wave would not kill was therefore a surprise.

Just like everything in the game up until the ending told us that forcibly dropping out of FTL is death 100% of the time.  

Then Bioware decided after the ending that in this case, with the Normandy?  Not death.  In fact, everyone happy and alive.

Again, a surprise.

NPH11 wrote...

 So, what do we all think about Merizan's latest tweet?

Jessica Merizan ‏ @JessicaMerizan
@Ryuasiu
@patrickweekes that was not am interview and it was filled with
half-truths and inaccuracies. I'm actually pretty angry about
it...

Who knows.  Still like Weekes though. 

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 08 avril 2012 - 06:45 .

[Echo_V]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I love this guy.

♥

[Kanon777]

NPH11 wrote...

 So, what do we all think about Merizan's latest tweet?

Jessica Merizan ‏ @JessicaMerizan
@Ryuasiu @patrickweekes that was not am interview and it was filled with half-truths and inaccuracies. I'm actually pretty angry about it...

There we go...

[edit]wait, she is talking about IT, not everything he said. 

Modifié par tobito113, 08 avril 2012 - 06:46 .

[MaverickPerry]

This should be BioWare's new logo:

http://28.media.tumb...ls341o1_500.jpg