1895 réponses à ce sujet

[pikey1969]

mugwuffin1986 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Its my impression that peple would find it much easier to swallow what the Catalyst say if it took the form of the original race that created the reapers, it dosent have to change the motives or most the dialogue (make the voice actor sound just like harbringer).

Seeing it as an old alien form could help us understand who created the reapers (dont forget VIs like Avina and Vedetta take the form of the species who created them) and add more exposition to the species that are older than the proteans...

I don't think that would change a thing.

The catalyst is ultimately what people make fun of, because it's representative of so many of things that people took issue with, but I believe the greater and the original problem is the choices that the catalyst offers.

A couple of things...

• Who said the Catalyst is a villian/antagonist?
• The Catalyst is only explaining what the Crucible does it did not create these options for you.

The Catalyst had a hand in creating the Reapers to safe guard the galaxy from total destruction. I think people are making far too many assumptions about its intentions/purpose.

The original problem is the choices that the catalyst offers, themselves.

It's relevant who really came up with the choices or what the catalyst's intentions are. The problem is that the choices that the GAME/STORY offers you through this device of the catalyst, imply consequences that are either A. equally dire, arbitrarily weighted for the artificial infusion of 'moral dilema', and not really in harmony with 99 percent of the narrative, or B. simply not fully fleshed out.[*]They can certainly use the EC patch to flesh-out the choices by providing more context, and we'll wait to see how they go about that.

why the hell is MY post stuck in bullet points?

Modifié par pikey1969, 08 avril 2012 - 08:51 .

[Anduin The Grey]

He also says he 'won't' act on any of the possibilities opened up to him from the Crucible not 'can't', whether that's a lie or not is anyones guess.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

@Bioware:

If you also want closure on Harbinger, "extend" us a final boss fight with him.  The more video-gamey, the better.

Orbital Strikes from sword or just fighting him with the normandy would be awsome.

[M0keys]

tobito113 wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...
I don't think that would change a thing.
The catalyst is ultimately what people make fun of, because it's representative of so many of things that people took issue with, but I believe the greater and the original problem is the choices that the catalyst offers.

I believe this could change significantly the way people see the catalyst, you could even make it sound like a desperate/insane/defective machine trapped in its own directives and unable to think of other possibilities for the galaxy (therefore solving the "plothole" of the reasoning behind their actions)

I think it was in this thread, that I posted earlier, but yes! I think the main issue with the Catalyst is the form it takes. Imagine if instead of being a kid, it was some old-man voice like this:

Clicky

I'd have digged that more. Even better, in my opinion, would have been it assuming the likeness of your LI, or you. Would have put a great twist on the VI of yourself you've been prodding for 2/3rds of the game

Imagine if the catalyst was voiced by this guy (the Architect form the matrix). in a new scary/surreal alien form

Oh, hey. Direct conversational bridge to this!

www.youtube.com/watch

[Tirranek]

tobito113 wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...
I don't think that would change a thing.
The catalyst is ultimately what people make fun of, because it's representative of so many of things that people took issue with, but I believe the greater and the original problem is the choices that the catalyst offers.

I believe this could change significantly the way people see the catalyst, you could even make it sound like a desperate/insane/defective machine trapped in its own directives and unable to think of other possibilities for the galaxy (therefore solving the "plothole" of the reasoning behind their actions)

I think it was in this thread, that I posted earlier, but yes! I think the main issue with the Catalyst is the form it takes. Imagine if instead of being a kid, it was some old-man voice like this:

Clicky

I'd have digged that more. Even better, in my opinion, would have been it assuming the likeness of your LI, or you. Would have put a great twist on the VI of yourself you've been prodding for 2/3rds of the game

Imagine if the catalyst was voiced by this guy (the Architect form the matrix). in a new scary/surreal alien form

<_<

Hehe. At least the Catalyst wasn't afraid of using words less than three syllables.

[Freckle Face]

pikey1969 wrote...

From the interview...

Joker would never abandon Shep without a good reason. Hopefully this will be clear in the Expanded Cut.

---

(....he seems to have gone to GREAT lengths to think ways around a lot of stuff the ending implied.)

Michael Gamble wrote...

...We've already said we are not changing the endings, but again - there are many things that we *can* do without changing them. 

These things give me a LOT of hope. I know that the writers are gonna knock this out of the park. Not quite sure why Casey and Mac vetoed the peer review in the first place? The thought that this all could have been avoided... THIS HURTS ME. 

From the interview...

I definitely want more closure on Harbinger. That'd be hilarious. Stop punching yourself, Harbinger.

:lol::lol:

Modifié par Freckle Face, 08 avril 2012 - 09:00 .

[AllThatJazz]

tobito113 wrote...

zephyr2025 wrote...

I wasn't saying he was forcing you. I'm saying you have no choice though. The game doesn't give you any option other than put your hand on a hot stove. Whether he was forcing you wasn't part of this discussion.

But the plot of the series is about killing the reapers, in the end you will be put in a situation where you have to deal with them, what other options do you want besides:

Kill your enemies. (destroy)
Subjulgate your enemies (control)
Make peace with your enemies (synthesis)

And dont say that you wanted to ignore the catalyst because you just admited that he didnt force you to do anything, and you can just stay put in your place and let the reapers take over the catalyst (critical mission failure)

There could have been better illusion of choice for this bit. An option to tell the catalyst to get lost, followed by a cutscene of the Reapers winning, and an epilogue saying 'The Cycle Continues', rather than Shep just being able to stand there for twenty minutes, followed by a 'game over' screen. If it is impossible to defeat the Reapers conventionally (and I believe it is, therefore some kind of Deus Ex Machina or Macguffin or whatever was always going to happen), then show us. 

[Skyblade012]

Michael Gamble wrote...

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

Michael Gamble wrote...

Cmon - give us some time with the DLC, and let's try to avoid hatin' on Patrick or Jessica:P

Honestly, after all the valid and incisive criticism leveled at the Catalyst and his presence in the ending, why insist on keeping him around? 90% of what's wrong with the ending can be solved simply by retconning him out of existence.

Why not just answer this question directly?

Is your question about whether or not we are going to retcon the catalyst? The answer is no. We've already said we are not changing the endings, but again - there are many things that we *can* do without changing them. 

A lot of folks had questions that we want to answer for them - but just like any piece of content, we are not going to outline the specifics before release. 

Why not?  If you had done so with the original ending, you would have had time to change it and not have wound up with this mess in the first place.

[Joe920]

How much $$$?

I'm not buying it. I'll just wait 'til someone puts it on youtube.

I'm done pouring money into this "gas-guzzler" of a game...

[killnoob]

put more magical explosions, problem solved. You cannot imagine that how many retakers would shut-up if you allow them to pick an option that allows Shepard to live without killing the geths or EDI. 

Modifié par killnoob, 08 avril 2012 - 09:04 .

[Mev186]

Seriously, How can Bioware get this amount of criticism and not even question whether or not the endings needed another look..

[balance5050]

Joe920 wrote...

How much $$$?

I'm not buying it. I'll just wait 'til someone puts it on youtube.

I'm done pouring money into this "gas-guzzler" of a game...

You must be out of the loop, the extended cut will be free.

[Freckle Face]

tobito113 wrote...

zephyr2025 wrote...

I wasn't saying he was forcing you. I'm saying you have no choice though. The game doesn't give you any option other than put your hand on a hot stove. Whether he was forcing you wasn't part of this discussion.

But the plot of the series is about killing the reapers, in the end you will be put in a situation where you have to deal with them, what other options do you want besides:

Kill your enemies. (destroy)
Subjulgate your enemies (control)
Make peace with your enemies (synthesis)

And dont say that you wanted to ignore the catalyst because you just admited that he didnt force you to do anything, and you can just stay put in your place and let the reapers take over the catalyst (critical mission failure)

Very interesting summary of the choices. I hadn't looked at them from that perspective, but it makes a lot of sense broken down that way.

I understand why people might want more dialogue with the Catalyst, being able to express incredulity or rebellion, etc. But I don't at all understand why people want the choice to reject the Catalyst's presented solutions. I think it's totally inconsistent with ANY Shepard to say "I'd rather let every organic die than accept the terms you're giving me, even if there are no other solutions." I can agree that there should be wayy more dialogue options with the Catalyst, asking why these are the only options, what the options even really mean, how can I even tell if you're telling me the truth, etc. But to just reject the options completely and fail the mission... you can't tell me your Shepard would actually do that?

[Tirranek]

Joe920 wrote...

How much $$$?

I'm not buying it. I'll just wait 'til someone puts it on youtube.

I'm done pouring money into this "gas-guzzler" of a game...

I feel I should be able to tell if this is sarcasm, but I just can't on these boards anymore =(

[jakal66]

killnoob wrote...

put more magical explosions, problem solved. You cannot imagine that how many retakers would shut-up if you allow them to pick an option that allows Shepard to live without killing the geths or EDI. 

So true,so sad but so true!


PEOPLE ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THE ENDING IS NOT,I REPEAT, IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE!!!!STOP BANGING YOUR HEADS AGAINST CONCRETE!!!!    IT        IS       NOT     GOING    TO    BE    CHANGED!

Modifié par jakal66, 08 avril 2012 - 09:08 .

[azereus2]

Michael Gamble wrote...

Cmon - give us some time with the DLC, and let's try to avoid hatin' on Patrick or Jessica:P

wowowow hold a second sir... are you telling me i have to give you time?
Are you jocking or something?... what statement is that?  give us time? :S:S:S:S

Your co producer promised a lot of stuff during 2011 that WERENT IN THE GAME.. let me be clear here, because maybe i am not beeing clear. Thing that were promised on 2011 are NOT in the retail game. i will say it in spanish in case you know it.  PROMETIERON COSAS DURANTE 2011 QUE NO ESTAN EN EL JUEGO.

Now that we are clear about the things that were promised and were not in the game, i will counter ask you sir.
Why should i/we give you more time?. What is your criteria to ask for more time? to appeal that you are the ¨good guy¨ here because you are a producer/game company?.. are you serius? No, i am seriusly asking this. Because it sounds like if Ford tomorrow comes with a car and sells it without wheels apparently i have to be a good person a wait for them to solve the problem. The problem shoud´ve seen from the start..  ¨THE CAR DOESNT HAVE WHEELS¨ in this case.. ¨ Mass effect 3 doesnt have ALL THESE things we promised¨ 

[Kanon777]

Tirranek wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...
I don't think that would change a thing.
The catalyst is ultimately what people make fun of, because it's representative of so many of things that people took issue with, but I believe the greater and the original problem is the choices that the catalyst offers.

I believe this could change significantly the way people see the catalyst, you could even make it sound like a desperate/insane/defective machine trapped in its own directives and unable to think of other possibilities for the galaxy (therefore solving the "plothole" of the reasoning behind their actions)

I think it was in this thread, that I posted earlier, but yes! I think the main issue with the Catalyst is the form it takes. Imagine if instead of being a kid, it was some old-man voice like this:

Clicky

I'd have digged that more. Even better, in my opinion, would have been it assuming the likeness of your LI, or you. Would have put a great twist on the VI of yourself you've been prodding for 2/3rds of the game

Taking the form of several people who die in the past (saren, virmire sacrifice, people you let kill during the 3 games) would also make a great paralels with all the dreams we had during ME3. They could also have an indocrination scene where the catalyst tries to take over you but fails, ultimatly letting you make the final choice.

It could be similar to how The First acted in the last season of Buffy, changing is form into the villians of all past seasons...
 

[Ravenmyste]

Mr.House wrote...

So pretty much, Bioware was rushed.

yep sure seem that way EA didnt want to put anymore money into it and told them to ship it...

just like they did with DA2, i really wish there was away to buy Bioware studios back from EA, so that they can get back to doing what theyre good at and not be preasured into releasing a game that can make or break a game you think they would have learned from DA2{EA that is} that you cant rush  a game, when you have to live up to 2 other games that make you choices seem like nothing mattered...

and yet i loved ME3 but i did think it felt rushed to a point on some things and i didnt even know that people was forced into arcahni story if you killed her or not.. now that does seem to be sloppy way to say oh well you have to do this way we wont give you more money to fix it..{again EA}

if retakes could change there slogan to  retake bioware from EA and give them  budget that would make me happy to see them do that to free them from  evil ea

[Lozark]

humes spork wrote...

Lozark wrote...

There is one thing I still wonder about. So, using the Mass Relays is bad, because it's Reaper tech, but reverse engineering Reaper FTL tech is okay? Because it's... not Reaper tech?  I'm speaking narratively of course.

At that point, the Reapers would be completely inert. Furthermore, it's demonstrated (repeatedly) that reverse-engineering Reaper tech is dangerous (but for the chance for Indoctrination), but possible nevertheless.

Also, how did the Keepers interfere with the Reapers locking down the relays?  Sovereign successfully locked down the Relays in ME1.  That was kind of a big deal at the end, you know, with wether you opened the Relays immediately to save the Destiny Ascension, or held off to focus fire on Soverign after the arms opened.

No, sovereign shut the Citadel arms. There's no evidence in the game to support that Sovereign (or, more relevantly Saren) managed to lock down the relay network.

All of the Alliance navy that could have been mobilized to fight Sovereign already had been. What was at the Citadel was already everything the Alliance had. The decision to save the Council was about wasting Alliance resources to fight the geth, or withholding everything to fight Sovereign.

Except for the part where that is exactly what happened.

 

Starting at about 3:30ish.  "Open the relays around the Citadel" anyone?  The reason that control of the Citadel is so important for the Reapers is because they know how to use it to control the entire Mass Relay network.  That;s part of why their reaping normally goes so smoothly - galactic communication and transport relys on the Relays, and with those under total Reaper control they can probably wipe out half the galaxy before the other half even notices.

Modifié par Lozark, 08 avril 2012 - 09:16 .

[Joe920]

balance5050 wrote...

Joe920 wrote...

How much $$$?

I'm not buying it. I'll just wait 'til someone puts it on youtube.

I'm done pouring money into this "gas-guzzler" of a game...

You must be out of the loop, the extended cut will be free.

Very nice. I retract my previous statement. Glad I'm caught up now!

[john v rambo]

I like Patrick Weekes

[Neizd]

From all of this I get that the problem was "lack resources" so..that means that EA is at fault since it's them that give their game developers some set amount of money...

[Kanon777]

jakal66 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

put more magical explosions, problem solved. You cannot imagine that how many retakers would shut-up if you allow them to pick an option that allows Shepard to live without killing the geths or EDI. 

So true,so sad but so true!

PEOPLE ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THE ENDING IS NOT,I REPEAT, IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE!!!!STOP BANGING YOUR HEADS AGAINST CONCRETE!!!!    IT        IS       NOT     GOING    TO    BE    CHANGED!

The thnigs is, its SO easy for Bioware to retcon the Geth destruction by claming that the highest EMS Red ending destroys only the reapers, we know that sheps synthetics stay intact and he can survive if your EMS is high enough, so its easy to apply the same logic for the Geth+EDI's body

Modifié par tobito113, 08 avril 2012 - 09:39 .

[Joeyv]

Neizd wrote...

From all of this I get that the problem was "lack resources" so..that means that EA is at fault since it's them that give their game developers some set amount of money...

We don't live in a fairy tale world. In every situation, developers have a set amount of money. It's business, not charity.

[pikey1969]

Joeyv wrote...

Neizd wrote...

From all of this I get that the problem was "lack resources" so..that means that EA is at fault since it's them that give their game developers some set amount of money...

We don't live in a fairy tale world. In every situation, developers have a set amount of money. It's business, not charity.

Blizzard and Valve say hi.