1895 réponses à ce sujet

[kalerab]

Well, this went well.

[UrgentArchengel]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Lets end silly argument and talk about the future dlc.

So, without removing the Catalyst, what changes we can make to it that would make it better?

-Change the looks of the catalyst? (imo make it like the first species that created the reapers/harbringer original species)
-Add more information on past civilization and why it thinks organics and synthetics will always fight?
-More explanation on how the catalyst works?
-More chances of confrontation/point out the falacies in the Catalyst arguments (Geth/EDI)
- Add a scene where the Cat tries to indocrinate you?

Imo adding more than one "avatar"(the kid) of the catalyst would be a good idea, the scene would make a good paralel with the dreams and each new form would look like one of the people Shepard failed to save during the story, all of them trying to indocrinate him into not fighting against the catalyst's words/desires...

This would also give a nodge of respect to the indoc theory without making it true, imo its a good solution

I think seeing all the past history stuff from Starchild's POV would have to be something game-long. Putting all of it at the end would be way too much of a pace-breaker and still feel tacked-on.

I also feel like he needs to explain your options better. IE instead of him saying "you can destroy all synthetic life if you want to" have him say "you can destroy the Reapers, but the Crucible will target Reaper code and thus anything with it will be destroyed." It would give a more concrete reason why EDI/the Geth are in danger along with the Reapers.

I definitely agree wholeheartedly with the bold. An explanation of the choices and why they happen that way/how they happen that way would also be fantastic and less "WTF?" It would help the current endings quite a bit.

Could be added as one of the originally planned DLC, much like From Ashes for the Protheans.

[Mathias]

Um if Mike posted info then why can't we talk about it? Not everything about Mike has to revolve around Rob.

[Slaiyer]

kalerab wrote...

Well, this went well.

(Proud) - I like to think so. We hit a bump sure, but we made up.

[Delta_V2]

tobito113 wrote...

Lets end silly argument and talk about the future dlc.

So, without removing the Catalyst, what changes we can make to it that would make it better?

-Change the looks of the catalyst? (imo make it like the first species that created the reapers/harbringer original species)
-Add more information on past civilization and why it thinks organics and synthetics will always fight?
-More explanation on how the catalyst works?
-More chances of confrontation/point out the falacies in the Catalyst arguments (Geth/EDI)
- Add a scene where the Cat tries to indocrinate you?

Imo adding more than one "avatar"(the kid) of the catalyst would be a good idea, the scene would make a good paralel with the dreams and each new form would look like one of the people Shepard failed to save during the story, all of them trying to indocrinate him into not fighting against the catalyst's words/desires...

This would also give a nodge of respect to the indoc theory without making it true, imo its a good solution

I think we need the opportunity to bring up the Geth-Quarian conflict, especially if we ended it peacefully.  I mean, when we're talking about synthetic-organic confict, it's kind of a BIG DEAL.  EDI's *potential* relationship with Joker, and her attituded in general, is also pretty significant.  These things might not outright disprove the Catalyst, but they do call his claims into question.  There is no way Shepard wouldn't bring these things up.

I think one possibility for the Catalyst is to have it use the person you sacrificed at Virmire (Ashley/Kaidan).  I think that would get the emotional effect they were going for far more effectively than the kid.  Combine this with extended conversation (namely, being able to argue with the thing), and it could be workable.

Unfortunately, I think the Normandy crash just needs to be nixed entirely.  I've tried to look at it from different angles, but I just can't justify Joker and your crew running away.  In the final push, all that matters is reaching the Citadel.  Failure is not an option.  To use a poker analogy: you don't fold your hand after you've gone all in.  If they fail here, they lose the war.  Even if they see Shepard reach the beam, it doesn't make sense for them not to follow him (since this is also when Harbinger conveniently flies away, they now have a clear path to the beam).

I don't even want to think about how they will try and explain Synthesis.  It just gives me a headache.

Ultimately, I think the Catalyst can be salvaged.  It will never be good, but it can be workable.  I have less faith in salvaging Synthesis and the Normandy crash.

[Gweedotk]

The Wumpus wrote...

Oh, believe me, no one gets into this business for the money. Anyone who does gets out of it real fast. 

Devs work ridiculously long hours, sometimes completely unpaid, for months or years at a stretch, to make their part of the game as good as it can be. The reason so many devs thank their families in the credits is because they spend so long away from them, they might as well be working in another country. And sometimes they are; a good friend of mine spent months of his life last year flying back and forth between here and the Czech Republic. I've seen testers sent to work for months in Russia. Hell, one of the devs of the original Phantasy Star got in trouble for going home to sleep one night.

Money? There are infinitely easier jobs with shorter hours that pay much, much more. You work in development, you do it out of love and out of passion, because nothing else will see you through it.

Thank you. Admittedly I did go along with the rage bandwagon at first, but I know devs go through some **** so I was torn. Wasn't aware it was that bad though, thanks for the insight.

I've blamed EA for awhile now. I'm assuming EA is the reason why ME1 was released in a hurry - they had to re-use the same map for most of the levels and exclude female genders for most of the races.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Um if Mike posted info then why can't we talk about it? Not everything about Mike has to revolve around Rob.

He just doesn't want any discussion about Mike to bring all the crap back up. We can talk about it, just drop the arguing.

For the love of all that is good in this universe, drop the arguing. XD

[Anduin The Grey]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Um if Mike posted info then why can't we talk about it? Not everything about Mike has to revolve around Rob.

I think the actual point is whether or not he will post anything else because obviously him coming back to this thread doesn't matter at all.

And now I'm with Reptillian Rob, post your last word if you wish, I won't respond to it, or assume the high road and continue on topic, I've said all I'm going to say, your choice, win/win for you either way.

[Thornquist]

Well, Gamble is human like the rest of us. I'm pretty sure I would snap too if I was constantly belittled, harassed, accused and mocked. The picture was probably his tipping point.

Well, another reminder of staying civil, avoid trolling, and come with constructive critizism.

[Reptilian Rob]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Um if Mike posted info then why can't we talk about it? Not everything about Mike has to revolve around Rob.

He just doesn't want any discussion about Mike to bring all the crap back up. We can talk about it, just drop the arguing.

For the love of all that is good in this universe, drop the arguing. XD

Exactly.

I dun goofed, I appologized in a very kind PM and here. Lets keep it on track.

[CronoDragoon]

For me the main problem is still the relays. Any ending requiring all your races to get back home in decades is going to be at least 75% bitter to me. I don't even care about the choices; the real problem is what happens after NO MATTER WHAT. Relays and Normandy crash. Those are the real nut punches.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 avril 2012 - 12:53 .

[Reptilian Rob]

CronoDragoon wrote...

For me the main problem is still the relays. Any ending requiring all your races to get back home in decades is going to be at least 75% bitter to me. I don't even care about the choices; the real problem is what happens after NO MATTER WHAT. Relays and Normandy crash. Those are the real nut punches.

My biggest problem was the Citadel, the one place I really grew to love...

[Chaoswind]

First lets try to keep the sanity bar filled.

Changing too many things of the ending would take too much work, work and resources that EA won't be happy to spend, so I think we should find the cheapest and easiest way to make the endings acceptable.


Having active time events (like the press V) during Priority Earth would help a the mission feel much better, and make it like the Virmine mission in with certain hidden objectives help you save or cause the death of important cast members (Jack, Kirahe, Coots?)

and to help the vent kid of nonsense, let us heard A voice calling Harby to the citadel or some crap (implying there is someone above harby)

[Mathias]

Michael Gamble wrote...

Luiginius wrote...

Weekes said those were his statements seen through the eyes of the person asking the questions.
I don't know what other confirmation you could ask for. In no way is it accurate, Weekes said that himself, but it's still the best PR piece concerning bioware.
Done by a fan, answers given by a man in the writing team, no pr people in sight.
Paints a pretty clear picture what is the other issue bioware is having besides the ending.

You know, most of us in game development would love to have all the time in the world to make our games, but that doesn't mean we put something out that we don't believe is quality.

As for some of this specifics of the questions...

Of course joker wouldn't abandon Shepard for no reason, and yes - let's not underestimate FTL here let's also not forget about quantum communication...or the incredible store of food rations that the Normandy has.

Cmon - give us some time with the DLC, and let's try to avoid hatin' on Patrick or Jessica:P

I can't imagine the Normandy has THAT much food rations stored for Garrus and Tali. This would have to assume that ships could FTL to Gilligan's Planet within 2-3 months depending on how much they ration the food. This also is under the assumption that within those 2-3 months, contact with the Normandy is established quickly.

[nevar00]

tobito113 wrote...

Lets end silly argument and talk about the future dlc.

So, without removing the Catalyst, what changes we can make to it that would make it better?

-Change the looks of the catalyst? (imo make it like the first species that created the reapers/harbringer original species)
-Add more information on past civilization and why it thinks organics and synthetics will always fight?
-More explanation on how the catalyst works?
-More chances of confrontation/point out the falacies in the Catalyst arguments (Geth/EDI)
- Add a scene where the Cat tries to indocrinate you?

Imo adding more than one "avatar"(the kid) of the catalyst would be a good idea, the scene would make a good paralel with the dreams and each new form would look like one of the people Shepard failed to save during the story, all of them trying to indocrinate him into not fighting against the catalyst's words/desires...

This would also give a nodge of respect to the indoc theory without making it true, imo its a good solution

Honestly?  The ending cannot be good as long as the Catalyst exists.  Well, I suppose it could be but it would be absolutely miraculous to pull it off.

The thing is, the Catalyst here, just by existing, does a number of things wrong.

- First and foremost, it is a massive Dues Ex Machina.  Which is:

a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved
with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event,
character, ability, or object.

Now some people have countered this with the fact that the Crucible itself is a DEM... and yes, it also is.  The difference is that most find that a bit more accepting given the situation: Bioware created a race of super-powerful starships that were next to impossible to defeat.  So they threw in a giant super weapon that was never mentioned or foreshadowed before and decided every race in the game would put stock is the ****ing blueprints for this never-before created weapon in the hopes that it would solve all their problems.  Okay.  Not good really but okay and understandable.

But then Starkid comes along and he here is an unnecessary one as well as an abrupt and thrown in character.  See at least the Crucible held together for the entire game and had the shadow of doubt hanging over it the entire time: whereas this little guy is thrown in 5 minutes from the ending to suddenly solve all your problems and answer all your questions.

- Secondly, not only is he an important DEM thrown in at the end, but he also is suddenly the main antagonist.  A main antagonist switch happens 5 minutes from the end of the game... with absolutely no foreshadowing to speak of.  Even worse, it takes heavily away from the previous main villains and reduces them to mindless tools, also rendering a lot of the conversations with Soverign especially pointless.  

Even if the massive and gaping plot holes are patched up, closure happens, the fire used to torch the franchise is put out, the main goal of the game (stop the Reapers to solve synthetics and organics and the Reapers will go away accordingly) is changed back, and then there's actually the entire last level which I found very underwhelming (it was very basic and nothing I did all game changed anything)... it's still bad for the sole reason of his existing.  If done right the ending would go from one of the worst endings I've ever seen to merely bad or poor, so that's an improvement at least and would probably make the series playable again in my eyes, but I could never call it good so long as this character exists.

[CronoDragoon]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

For me the main problem is still the relays. Any ending requiring all your races to get back home in decades is going to be at least 75% bitter to me. I don't even care about the choices; the real problem is what happens after NO MATTER WHAT. Relays and Normandy crash. Those are the real nut punches.

My biggest problem was the Citadel, the one place I really grew to love...

Right, at least the named people on the Citadel are fine though. The Citadel can be rebuilt, and that would even be a cool marker for the new Reaper-less era; a new symbol of galactic civilization. But without the relays or a massively improved FTL there is no galactic civilization anymore.

[ReavousX]

I want to say that I'm intrigued by this conversation with Weekes, and that recent Bioware comments have me optimistic, but I can't. I'll certainly be paying attention, and I'll always hope that Bioware does the right thing for it's brand and this trilogy (not to mention the loyal customers who had faith in their products) but I've been done for a while.

Watching Bioware employees act as though they should be untouchable in a social setting (whether it be fan interviews like this, or social media) is just embarrassing. It's 2012, anyone can be a journalist, social media and the internet have changed the game. Bioware and any gaming "journalist" should be ashamed that it took a fan to ask these kinds of questions. This isn't an attack, simply an honest observation of a lack of adaptation. There's a reason why there's so much goodwill for Weekes now, and that's transparency...something we've not seen much of from Bioware lately.

I hope Bioware makes the most out of this free DLC. I hope they patch up the relationship between them and disappointed customers such as myself, but after post after post of constructive criticism to be consistently replied to with the sort of condescension that I've seen in Bioware's PR, I'm simply done.

No more DLC, no longer will I be purchasing Bioware titles because I believe they'll produce a quality product. I'm not particularly happy about it, Bioware has created some of my favorite games, and delivered hours of great content...but things have changed, and I'm not going to throw dollars at them simply because they delivered in the past.

[Anduin The Grey]

Turian paste is pretty available even in slums of the Citadel, ain't very nice but they can live on it. Mind you, Crocodile Dundee said something similar but a lot better xD =)

[Kanon777]

nevar00 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Lets end silly argument and talk about the future dlc.

So, without removing the Catalyst, what changes we can make to it that would make it better?

-Change the looks of the catalyst? (imo make it like the first species that created the reapers/harbringer original species)
-Add more information on past civilization and why it thinks organics and synthetics will always fight?
-More explanation on how the catalyst works?
-More chances of confrontation/point out the falacies in the Catalyst arguments (Geth/EDI)
- Add a scene where the Cat tries to indocrinate you?

Imo adding more than one "avatar"(the kid) of the catalyst would be a good idea, the scene would make a good paralel with the dreams and each new form would look like one of the people Shepard failed to save during the story, all of them trying to indocrinate him into not fighting against the catalyst's words/desires...

This would also give a nodge of respect to the indoc theory without making it true, imo its a good solution

Honestly?  The ending cannot be good as long as the Catalyst exists.  Well, I suppose it could be but it would be absolutely miraculous to pull it off.

The thing is, the Catalyst here, just by existing, does a number of things wrong.

- First and foremost, it is a massive Dues Ex Machina.  Which is:

a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved
with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event,
character, ability, or object.

Now some people have countered this with the fact that the Crucible itself is a DEM... and yes, it also is.  The difference is that most find that a bit more accepting given the situation: Bioware created a race of super-powerful starships that were next to impossible to defeat.  So they threw in a giant super weapon that was never mentioned or foreshadowed before and decided every race in the game would put stock is the ****ing blueprints for this never-before created weapon in the hopes that it would solve all their problems.  Okay.  Not good really but okay and understandable.

But then Starkid comes along and he here is an unnecessary one as well as an abrupt and thrown in character.  See at least the Crucible held together for the entire game and had the shadow of doubt hanging over it the entire time: whereas this little guy is thrown in 5 minutes from the ending to suddenly solve all your problems and answer all your questions.

- Secondly, not only is he an important DEM thrown in at the end, but he also is suddenly the main antagonist.  A main antagonist switch happens 5 minutes from the end of the game... with absolutely no foreshadowing to speak of.  Even worse, it takes heavily away from the previous main villains and reduces them to mindless tools, also rendering a lot of the conversations with Soverign especially pointless.  

Even if the massive and gaping plot holes are patched up, closure happens, the fire used to torch the franchise is put out, the main goal of the game (stop the Reapers to solve synthetics and organics and the Reapers will go away accordingly) is changed back, and then there's actually the entire last level which I found very underwhelming (it was very basic and nothing I did all game changed anything)... it's still bad for the sole reason of his existing.  If done right the ending would go from one of the worst endings I've ever seen to merely bad or poor, so that's an improvement at least and would probably make the series playable again in my eyes, but I could never call it good so long as this character exists.

so youre saying none of the things i said would improve the catalyst scene?

[Thorn Harvestar]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Um if Mike posted info then why can't we talk about it? Not everything about Mike has to revolve around Rob.

He just doesn't want any discussion about Mike to bring all the crap back up. We can talk about it, just drop the arguing.

For the love of all that is good in this universe, drop the arguing. XD

Exactly.

I dun goofed, I appologized in a very kind PM and here. Lets keep it on track.

Hope this helps:



I think we can all move on now


Personally, I am optimistic for Extended Cut because:

A) I know their writers like Patrick here understand the big issues we have with the ending
and
I know Casey and Mac have done some great work aside from the end throughout the series. 

[CronoDragoon]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Michael Gamble wrote...

Luiginius wrote...

Weekes said those were his statements seen through the eyes of the person asking the questions.
I don't know what other confirmation you could ask for. In no way is it accurate, Weekes said that himself, but it's still the best PR piece concerning bioware.
Done by a fan, answers given by a man in the writing team, no pr people in sight.
Paints a pretty clear picture what is the other issue bioware is having besides the ending.

You know, most of us in game development would love to have all the time in the world to make our games, but that doesn't mean we put something out that we don't believe is quality.

As for some of this specifics of the questions...

Of course joker wouldn't abandon Shepard for no reason, and yes - let's not underestimate FTL here let's also not forget about quantum communication...or the incredible store of food rations that the Normandy has.

Cmon - give us some time with the DLC, and let's try to avoid hatin' on Patrick or Jessica:P

I can't imagine the Normandy has THAT much food rations stored for Garrus and Tali. This would have to assume that ships could FTL to Gilligan's Planet within 2-3 months depending on how much they ration the food. This also is under the assumption that within those 2-3 months, contact with the Normandy is established quickly.

The implication from Mike's post there is that the Normandy is indeed rescued (or else why discuss their store of rations?). That is a major plus from me because my initial inclination was that the Stargazer scene was the Normandy's descendants and that they were never rescued.

[Reptilian Rob]

Thank you very much Thron, I hope Gamble reads my PM.

Now lets get the thread back on track.

[Anduin The Grey]

nevar00 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Lets end silly argument and talk about the future dlc.

So, without removing the Catalyst, what changes we can make to it that would make it better?

-Change the looks of the catalyst? (imo make it like the first species that created the reapers/harbringer original species)
-Add more information on past civilization and why it thinks organics and synthetics will always fight?
-More explanation on how the catalyst works?
-More chances of confrontation/point out the falacies in the Catalyst arguments (Geth/EDI)
- Add a scene where the Cat tries to indocrinate you?

Imo adding more than one "avatar"(the kid) of the catalyst would be a good idea, the scene would make a good paralel with the dreams and each new form would look like one of the people Shepard failed to save during the story, all of them trying to indocrinate him into not fighting against the catalyst's words/desires...

This would also give a nodge of respect to the indoc theory without making it true, imo its a good solution

Honestly?  The ending cannot be good as long as the Catalyst exists.  Well, I suppose it could be but it would be absolutely miraculous to pull it off.

The thing is, the Catalyst here, just by existing, does a number of things wrong.

- First and foremost, it is a massive Dues Ex Machina.  Which is:

a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved
with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event,
character, ability, or object.

Now some people have countered this with the fact that the Crucible itself is a DEM... and yes, it also is.  The difference is that most find that a bit more accepting given the situation: Bioware created a race of super-powerful starships that were next to impossible to defeat.  So they threw in a giant super weapon that was never mentioned or foreshadowed before and decided every race in the game would put stock is the ****ing blueprints for this never-before created weapon in the hopes that it would solve all their problems.  Okay.  Not good really but okay and understandable.

But then Starkid comes along and he here is an unnecessary one as well as an abrupt and thrown in character.  See at least the Crucible held together for the entire game and had the shadow of doubt hanging over it the entire time: whereas this little guy is thrown in 5 minutes from the ending to suddenly solve all your problems and answer all your questions.

- Secondly, not only is he an important DEM thrown in at the end, but he also is suddenly the main antagonist.  A main antagonist switch happens 5 minutes from the end of the game... with absolutely no foreshadowing to speak of.  Even worse, it takes heavily away from the previous main villains and reduces them to mindless tools, also rendering a lot of the conversations with Soverign especially pointless.  

Even if the massive and gaping plot holes are patched up, closure happens, the fire used to torch the franchise is put out, the main goal of the game (stop the Reapers to solve synthetics and organics and the Reapers will go away accordingly) is changed back, and then there's actually the entire last level which I found very underwhelming (it was very basic and nothing I did all game changed anything)... it's still bad for the sole reason of his existing.  If done right the ending would go from one of the worst endings I've ever seen to merely bad or poor, so that's an improvement at least and would probably make the series playable again in my eyes, but I could never call it good so long as this character exists.

I disagree, even at the end of ME1 it was pretty obvious a conventional war with the Reapers was always going to be impossible.

Secondly, I still think the Omega Station looks a little too similar to the Crucible to be a coincidence, the description in ME2 even matches, partly and perhaps a little too vaguely.

[Delta_V2]

tobito113 wrote...

so youre saying none of the things i said would improve the catalyst scene?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think anything will ever make it good, but it can be made workable.  Some of the other stuff, not so much.