1895 réponses à ce sujet

[Valorefane Dragonwinter]

Lurchibald wrote...

4. Resources, Resources, Resources, What will they use to build these live-ships? The development/build time would be huge, the quarians have only ever needed enough food for themselves, so unless they want to starve they cant give much (if any) food to the Turians, Earth is almost desolate from what we see and we probably only have just enough food for our own people before anything will start to grow on Earth again.

They built the crucible in a matter of weeks, so it's not too hard to imagine they can build ships out of all the wreckage floating around in space.  It's not like they'll have a lack of motivated builders.

[Tirranek]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The people who built the Crucible can reasonably said to be in the Sol system. They are now free to focus on other things. I'd say it's quite plausible that the Sol system now has the biggest concentration of bright minds in the galaxy. As for the rest, see the comment above about the industrial infrastructure.

Also, with all those fleets and races, Earth has essentially become the new Citadel, the first galactic hub of the new cycle. I thought that situation was really interesting.

[Allan Schumacher]

eromelcm7 wrote...

This is quite interesting, so lets continue this logic. Given that synthetics are the ultimate outcome of tools, it would follow to negate the need/desire for physical tools (as stated above). But synthesis does not accomplish this.

The desire for a tool starts with simpler physical need. The Geth tool was created from the simpler physical need for labor (like agriculture). The desire for these tools is only a desire in the sense that survival dictates it. This is not laziness. Tools follow as a solution to survival, which is continues and thus the development of tools is a continues advance. Really, the only way to stop this advancement is to eliminate the pressure of survival. But synthesis is "the finale evolution of life" right? So no more pressure to survive right? Right? Not that I can see...

We are told that a new format of DNA is created through the combination of synthetics. So we still have some form of "DNA" in this ending -- this is important. This means we are still self-replicating life. Nothing has really changed here, survival is still a factor and thus the creation of tools is inevitable. The forms of matter used as a "framework" of life are irrelevant, merely existing in the physical world as life bounds you to its rules. The only real solution would be to transcend the physical. If anything, AI are the closest thing to "the finale evolution of life" because they exist as software, as Javik says, "outside of nature". By what logic would AI feel the need to create subservient AI? They have no physical needs.

But this all just an extrapolation on the assumption synthesis is supposed to stop the creation of new synthetics and synthetics are somehow inherently bad as asserted by the Catalyst.

I agree that need plays a role, but eventually it sees diminishing returns.  If you look at most of the Western world, I don't think a lot of developments come from any sort of survival need, but just from a need to be more efficient and whatnot. 

It'd be like my job at work, in that I could go in and manually test over a sequence of data on a day to day basis, or I can write up a simple C# app that does it for me and outputs the results I need automatically.  As a result, I'm free to kick up my feet and drink some lattes while lurking in the forum to see what the ME crowd is up to.  And doesn't that just make the world a better place? >.>

Jokes aside, from a survival perspective, I don't see it as being much of a focus for our innovation moving forward at this stage in our history.  How this applies to a species that has not transcended is something that is tricky to answer.

[wicked_being]

Tirranek wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The people who built the Crucible can reasonably said to be in the Sol system. They are now free to focus on other things. I'd say it's quite plausible that the Sol system now has the biggest concentration of bright minds in the galaxy. As for the rest, see the comment above about the industrial infrastructure.

Also, with all those fleets and races, Earth has essentially become the new Citadel, the first galactic hub of the new cycle. I thought that situation was really interesting.

Hmm I never really thought of that. If the scientists could build the Crucible, then they're surely capable of solving the problem of resource shortage (food and fuel),  improving on FTL and other problems related to space exploration now that the relays have been destroyed. That actually makes it more interesting.

[Lurchibald]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lurchibald wrote...
1. With what resources will they build these extractors?

Expedition fleets will be accompanied by a mobile refinery ship, or every starship will be equipped with a helium-3 extractor. There is no need to be build local refineries.
Also, if you're talking about the Sol system's industrial infrastructure with which these things would have to be built, in the Earth is OK endings most of it would have survived. The places we see in the game are those where the heaviest fighting takes place. London and many other big cities will be piles of rubble. But others will have remained mostly intact.

2. Yes, that is what's close to sol, what about 25 LY beyond that? and beyond that?

Star density around Sol is low compared to most parts of the galaxy. Expedition fleets will find more places to fefuel and discharge further out. If they're accompanied by liveships, there is no need to return to Earth for resupply.

3. Again, they have minimal resources, pretty much any spare resources went into developing the crucible, With what can we research with?

The people who built the Crucible can reasonably said to be in the Sol system. They are now free to focus on other things. I'd say it's quite plausible that the Sol system now has the biggest concentration of bright minds in the galaxy. As for the rest, see the comment above about the industrial infrastructure.

I don't know why you people are so determined to paint everything in the worst possible light. Don't you want a less depressive ending? Use your imagination to find reasons why it can be better instead of worse. Really, I don't understand this negativity.

1. We are told that the Reapers attack strategic targets first, any industrial infrastructure would have been destroyed by the Reapers in the initial attack.

2. There are two liveships there (from watching the .bik file), and they only produce food fit for dextro-amino life, and you also have to try to believe that neither liveship recieved any damage.

3. Yes, it is plausable but see my comment on industrial infrastructure above.

4. I'm just looking at the situation we have been given, and it is bleak. Not to mention the fact that every explosion colour destroys the Normandy... So that would lead one to believe that if the colour blast did that to the Normandy then the other ships couls have easily shared that fate... Plus, I'm just naturally pessimistic 

Modifié par Lurchibald, 09 avril 2012 - 10:06 .

[Avalon Aurora]

I hope this is true, and they re-shuffle the people in charge, and Mr. Weekes gets more influence.

Edit: Influence in creating a fix DLC.

Modifié par Avalon Aurora, 09 avril 2012 - 09:58 .

[Nyctyris]

Well - according to all the tweets no one starves to death and reunion is possible... somehow -,+ though I'm struggling to see how that can all pull together at this point without more plot holes.

[DamonD7]

Tirranek wrote...

Also, with all those fleets and races, Earth has essentially become the new Citadel, the first galactic hub of the new cycle. I thought that situation was really interesting.

Wow, that is pretty interesting. Hadn't thought of that.

[Lurchibald]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Lurchibald wrote...

1. With what resources will they build these extractors?
2. Yes, that is what's close to sol, what about 25 LY beyond that? and beyond that?
3. Again, they have minimal resources, pretty much any spare resources went into developing the crucible, With what can we research with?
4. Resources, Resources, Resources, What will they use to build these live-ships? The development/build time would be huge, the quarians have only ever needed enough food for themselves, so unless they want to starve they cant give much (if any) food to the Turians, Earth is almost desolate from what we see and we probably only have just enough food for our own people before anything will start to grow on Earth again.

To be fair, the Quarian fleet is going to have been pretty heavily beaten up.  Assuming both the live ships survived, it's entirely possible that the food demands of the Quarian fleet have dropped (maybe even significantly).  This is in addition to the demands of the Turians, and everyone else really.  The idea that they have a surplus of food is not unreasonable.

I think an interesting result would be to have whether or not Admiral Koris survives play an impact here.  Since he's so badass, his ability to keep the liveships safe throughout the battle seems acceptable to me.

Maybe reasonable... but they would have to be damn lucky (even with Koris) for both the liveships to come out unscathed.

[Hermit_UK]

Sharn01 wrote...

I call foul on the whole "making everyone synthetic solves all the problems" bull crap. Humans war with humans, turians war with turians, geth war with geth, krogan war with krogan, etc, etc, and they all war with each other. Taking away diversity and forcing them to homogenize isnt going to solve this problem. They will still be different, and where disagreements exists wars will eventually ensue, unless we take their free will away completely.

Diversity has always been a strength as well, without diversity things stagnate, some of the greatest strides in our history is when a new culture gains access to something from another culture and comes up with new uses for it that the original culture never thought of.

I agree, though it depends on exactly what Synthesis actually did. Presumably Shepard's cybernetic enhancements formed some sort of template for the Organic/Synthetic hybrids (hence being used up in the beam). But simply giving people implants isn't going to instantly stop war, or the push for AI. Just because I can now recode nanobots in my body to fight off new diseases (on the upside, a huge win for the Quarians), doesn't mean I'm going to instantly get along with everyone else. If Shepard's the Synthesis Template, then she's proof that Synthesis doesn't prevent you from being a complete dick to everyone you meet.

On the other hand, if Synthesis has gone further and enforced some sort of Geth style conciousness sharing, as a means to prevent conflicts, then I'm worryingly reminded of Deus Ex: Invisible War's Helios ending (IW Spoilers, video here). Just replace Helios with Star Child. At the end of the day, conflict is caused by difference of opinion between two or more individuals. As Helios points out, at least from an AI's perspective (such as the Catalyst's), the only means of ensuring peace is to destroy the idea of "self" entirely. Which also runs against the whole 'unity through diversity' theme, which is so prevelant in the universe.

[NubXL]

Weekes is clearly the man who should have been made lead writer. His description of what he would have liked to see in the ending from that Penny Arcade post (I know he and BioWare deny its legitimacy, despite evidence to the contrary) was what we should have gotten. We never saw the might of the war assets we accumulated. It all seemed like a pointless exercise by the time "Priority: Earth" rolled around because they didn't do anything. It was just a number.

[Tirranek]

Also as a side note, I know it wouldn't be something covered with the Extended Cut (and I know I'm probably in a tiiiiny minority) But I really enjoy the idea of some content that explores existence within a Reaper. The hints that Legion gives in 2 with 'Synthetic Organic fusion. Each a nation' really interested me. What if it really is like some sort of transcendant existence, where everything seems perfect and these harvested races are 'living on' in some sort of communal reality.

To me anyway, exploring that side of things, which are sort of hinted at throughout the series, would make the ending choices seem more divisive. I wouldn't be hesitating with the destroy option because it holds a gun to the Geth (desperately), it would be because the concept of existence as a Reaper would seem like a geniune alternative to mass extinction. The question then becomes if it's right to force this existence on the races of the galaxy, even if it's for their own good.

Modifié par Tirranek, 09 avril 2012 - 10:37 .

[Moogberg]

NubXL wrote...

Weekes is clearly the man who should have been made lead writer. His description of what he would have liked to see in the ending from that Penny Arcade post (I know he and BioWare deny its legitimacy, despite evidence to the contrary) was what we should have gotten. We never saw the might of the war assets we accumulated. It all seemed like a pointless exercise by the time "Priority: Earth" rolled around because they didn't do anything. It was just a number.

Being good at diagnosing flaws and proposing good fixes and being good at creating a large story are two competences that are not always mixed.
Of course, Weekes' suggestions are for the most part very good and constructive. They incorporate what can't be changed from the ending (because it's Hudson's baby and because hundreds of thousands of players who reached the ending can't unsee it now) and try to put it in a context that would address plot holes and contradictions that fans were able to notice.
The guy is very good at fan service, as you can see from the ideas he contributed to in the released game. But that doesn't automatically mean it would be a good thing to make him head writer. Some writers are good at dialog, some are good at penning a great story, some are good at script doctoring. Some of them are good for all three.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ShdwFox7 wrote...
So yeah, this is all just bewildering. Either this entire OP is just completely yanking our legs or something really odd is going on here.

I'll tell you what I'm seeing. They're trying to "change the endings without changing the endings". The starchild scene and the three options for the final choice will stay because that's a core part of the original vision, but if there's a change in the starchild dialogue in order to make its reasoning make more sense AND a change in the consequences of the choices that's akin to changing the endings as I see it.

Yeah, and that's a reasonable compromise, I think. Say: "We are not changing the endings," but change them.  Say: "We are not compromising our artistic vision," while understanding that this point of view is essentially b.s. and the endings just suck.

Seems fair to me.

Modifié par flemm, 09 avril 2012 - 11:36 .

[ChurchOfZod]

Weekes for lead writer of all future ME games. His responses give an actual sense of hope and triumph that ME3 so completely failed to do. It's a shame there wasn't a longer development cycle and he didn't have more control.

[Eain]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

eromelcm7 wrote...

This is quite interesting, so lets continue this logic. Given that synthetics are the ultimate outcome of tools, it would follow to negate the need/desire for physical tools (as stated above). But synthesis does not accomplish this.

The desire for a tool starts with simpler physical need. The Geth tool was created from the simpler physical need for labor (like agriculture). The desire for these tools is only a desire in the sense that survival dictates it. This is not laziness. Tools follow as a solution to survival, which is continues and thus the development of tools is a continues advance. Really, the only way to stop this advancement is to eliminate the pressure of survival. But synthesis is "the finale evolution of life" right? So no more pressure to survive right? Right? Not that I can see...

We are told that a new format of DNA is created through the combination of synthetics. So we still have some form of "DNA" in this ending -- this is important. This means we are still self-replicating life. Nothing has really changed here, survival is still a factor and thus the creation of tools is inevitable. The forms of matter used as a "framework" of life are irrelevant, merely existing in the physical world as life bounds you to its rules. The only real solution would be to transcend the physical. If anything, AI are the closest thing to "the finale evolution of life" because they exist as software, as Javik says, "outside of nature". By what logic would AI feel the need to create subservient AI? They have no physical needs.

But this all just an extrapolation on the assumption synthesis is supposed to stop the creation of new synthetics and synthetics are somehow inherently bad as asserted by the Catalyst.

I agree that need plays a role, but eventually it sees diminishing returns.  If you look at most of the Western world, I don't think a lot of developments come from any sort of survival need, but just from a need to be more efficient and whatnot. 

It'd be like my job at work, in that I could go in and manually test over a sequence of data on a day to day basis, or I can write up a simple C# app that does it for me and outputs the results I need automatically.  As a result, I'm free to kick up my feet and drink some lattes while lurking in the forum to see what the ME crowd is up to.  And doesn't that just make the world a better place? >.>

Jokes aside, from a survival perspective, I don't see it as being much of a focus for our innovation moving forward at this stage in our history.  How this applies to a species that has not transcended is something that is tricky to answer.

Allan, this is a very interesting subject that does sort of put the ending in a new light, even if it doesn't justify the Spacekid's reasoning.

The created will always rebel against their creators IF the creators regard technology in a similar fashion as we do. Namely, a means to an end. But that still does not imply a disastrous conflict, or the death of all organic life at the hands of synthetics. It's a farfetched argument with little philosophical justification.

If you're philosophically inclined I would suggest you read the German philosopher Martin Heidegger, who spent a significant amount of time pondering the place of technology in human civilisation. His book "The Question Concerning Technology" is a very interesting read. He explores what technology means to human beings, and if we can ever truly be free so long as we make ourselves dependent on it. What starts off as a question with technophobic implications ends up being a rather liberating conclusion: we can take technology to whatever level we wish so long as we maintain an appropriate relation to it. It's a matter of caution and insight, rather than reckless indulgence in luxury and comfort.

If Mac and Casey had read it, I think the endings may have turned out to be a fair bit better.

[Lisa_H]

I liked the interview. With luck the extended ending might turn out alright after all. I will keep my fingers crossed

[pikey1969]

DamonD7 wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Also, with all those fleets and races, Earth has essentially become the new Citadel, the first galactic hub of the new cycle. I thought that situation was really interesting.

Wow, that is pretty interesting. Hadn't thought of that.

without the relays, and as the endings currently stood, there is no 'citadel' cause there is no need for a 'galactiic hub'. the cluster are no longer as closed tied as they used to be.

then again, with further exposition on exactly what happened or what could happen.. that certainly seems like a feasible notion, and a really cool one at that.

[Kanon777]

This is the most valuable thread in the entire forum, we cant let it go out of the first page...

[Dawson14]

I see a mod posted here but can't find the post. What was said?

[pikey1969]

Dawson14 wrote...

I see a mod posted here but can't find the post. What was said?

go to the forum page, and whenever there is 'Bioware' written under the thread title, click on 'Bioware' and it will take you to a page with OP, and ALL of Bioware employee/moderator posts on that thread.

It will look like this.

Enjoy.

[Norskebanan]

Moogberg wrote...

Being good at diagnosing flaws and proposing good fixes and being good at creating a large story are two competences that are not always mixed.

I was going to start a new post entirely, but I thought addressing this quote was a good place to start. As far as I know, Patrick Weekes wrote Mordin, Tali, Javik, the Blasto movie sound bytes, Jack and probably a few other things I'm forgetting. His track record speaks for itself as Mordin and Tali are two of the most universally lauded characters in the series. The man can write fantastic dialogue.

I'm still skeptical of the "clarification" ending DLC but knowing that Weekes will be contributing in some way offers me reassurance. He obviously has an understanding of how video games and interactions with characters in them ought to be done. He recognizes the flaws present in ME3's current ending or, at the very least, recognizes the components that fans see as flaws. I'm unsure if he has paid any attention to this thread but I do hope he is; he has been showered with praise by longtime BioWare fans.

[Anduin The Grey]

pikey1969 wrote...

then again, with further exposition on exactly what happened or what could happen.. that certainly seems like a feasible notion, and a really cool one at that.

I do disgree on this point but purely on the basis that any central government will always need a proverbial 'throne' so to speak. Us Brits have Parliment, Ruskies Red Square (I think!) and the Yanks have got their Whitehouse in Washington D.C which even a few of us Brits knows is not in Washington State.

[Anduin The Grey]

pikey1969 wrote...

Dawson14 wrote...

I see a mod posted here but can't find the post. What was said?

go to the forum page, and whenever there is 'Bioware' written under the thread title, click on 'Bioware' and it will take you to a page with OP, and ALL of Bioware employee/moderator posts on that thread.

It will look like this.

Enjoy.

That's a brill feature I've enjoyed for a while, especially since some of these threads are hundreds of pages long!

Modifié par Anduin The Grey, 09 avril 2012 - 02:52 .

[wicked_being]

tobito113 wrote...

This is the most valuable thread in the entire forum, we cant let it go out of the first page...

My goodness I can't believe I'm quoting you but you're right. This thread has improved the mood in the forum substantially. People should read this.