344 réponses à ce sujet

[Axialbloom]

A proper tier list for this game would involve synergy and the different factions. BUT, you can make a tier list based on overall performance.

[GodlessPaladin]

I'd consider adding another tier to the back end to add a bit more definition to the C tier, because I'm pretty sure Krogan Soldier and Turian Sentinel are meaningfully better than Quarian Engineer and Batarian Sentinel.

Axialbloom wrote...

A proper tier list for this game would
involve synergy and the different factions. BUT, you can make a tier
list based on overall performance.

I agree, and as stated in the OP this is merely a quick rough draft.  I initially created it all as one list at Sabresandiego's suggestion for the sake of simplicity of presentation.  The tier list as currently written assumes that each class is being used in optimal conditions for that class (e.g. map, faction) as evidenced by some of the comments posted by classes.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 07:40 .

[CNevarezN]

Axialbloom wrote...

CNevarezN wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

CNevarezN wrote...
Can't say that about those Biotics you think so highly of now. lml!

4 meters is not an incredibly small radius, and moreover the tier list is not updated for the new balance changes.  The balance changes were not even released last time I updated the OP.  Stop being obtuse.

 -=Thumbs through a Dictionary.=- Looks like I struck a nerve.

You had to look that up?  LOL.

 Nah, I just found it funny he used the word obtuse. That's all.

[CNevarezN]

GP's a cool guy. Got nothing against him. I just like to discuss things that I disagree with. I'm not trying to shove my point of view down people's throats. I like a good argument. If GP was a douche, I would have fought fire with fire, but he ain't.

Modifié par CNevarezN, 03 mai 2012 - 04:18 .

[sy7ar]

Again, drell vanguard, how do you wanna be convinced? I just had a game with all infiltrators (2 GI 1 SI iirc) im the drell vanguard firebase white cerberus only came into 2nd place after SI with BW V both above 100k 18:59 no missiles used. It's not only great against reapers and no need for biotic teammates. Should be in A tier, in the right hand.

[D4rk50ul808]

sy7ar wrote...

Again, drell vanguard, how do you wanna be convinced? I just had a game with all infiltrators (2 GI 1 SI iirc) im the drell vanguard firebase white cerberus only came into 2nd place after SI with BW V both above 100k 18:59 no missiles used. It's not only great against reapers and no need for biotic teammates. Should be in A tier, in the right hand.

Keep in mind that all classes are only as effective as their users.  There are FAR more people who can spam biotics at a fast pace than they can pull off three headshots in a single cloak duration, or play in your face with a soldier on gold.  Everyone has games where they score 200k points but its usually because they either play outside of the teams strategy and rush the enemies constantly, or they are just playing with weaker players.  If you put equally skilled players in control of all classes there are only a few that are truly weak.

[KiraTsukasa]

Seems purely opinion to me.

[Aouno]

One particular thing I really agree with you on is Human Soldier, with their recent buffs they can definitely be a killing machine, their one big issue is weapons. I would love to try out the Indra with Human Soldier, as I think they might benefit the most from this sniper rifle.

[Poekel]

Turian Soldier (I'm sorry but the rapid firing weapons just aren't that good. At best you're sacrificing an ability slot and monopolizing your conflicting cooldowns to make a bad weapon decent. Also compare to Hunter Mode)

With the latest weapon buffs the Turian Soldier can be a damage monster when going for headshots and taking specific equip (Ammo Piercing 3, VI 3, Stabilization 2 or 3). TS is not just about speed. It's the only class thats capable of getting 100% or near 100% accuracy, turning low accuracy weapons into long range snipers:

Talon: TS should be able to 1 shot even Geth Pyros at almost any range (at least on higher Talon levels).
Claymore/Wraith: See Talon (though you have to be really skilled thanks to the missing Scope).

Hurricane: 8650,125 headshot damage per second at level 1 if every bullet hits the head (GI specced for full damage gets 7606,23 with a Valiant 1).

[Grimy Bunyip]

where does the QI fit now?

[GodlessPaladin]

Poekel wrote...

Turian Soldier (I'm sorry but the rapid firing weapons just aren't that good. At best you're sacrificing an ability slot and monopolizing your conflicting cooldowns to make a bad weapon decent. Also compare to Hunter Mode)

With the latest weapon buffs the Turian Soldier can be a damage monster when going for headshots and taking specific equip (Ammo Piercing 3, VI 3, Stabilization 2 or 3). TS is not just about speed. It's the only class thats capable of getting 100% or near 100% accuracy, turning low accuracy weapons into long range snipers:

Talon: TS should be able to 1 shot even Geth Pyros at almost any range (at least on higher Talon levels).
Claymore/Wraith: See Talon (though you have to be really skilled thanks to the missing Scope).

Hurricane: 8650,125 headshot damage per second at level 1 if every bullet hits the head (GI specced for full damage gets 7606,23 with a Valiant 1).

Raw DPS isn't as important as some might think.  For example, how does the Turian Soldier handle phantoms?  And not being able to roll is a problem against Geth.  And he just can't run through spawn groups of reapers like some others can.

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

where does the QI fit now?

Haven't tried the buffed QI yet nor have I seen anyone really making it shine.  Will get around to it. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 06:12 .

[Nereithr]

Why is human engineer C tier? I beleive he has the fastest killing speed of all engineers, due to both overload and incinerate + combat drone rockets. Maybe i am wrong and just base it on the fact that he is efficient by himself(self made tech bursts)

Turian soldier. Why is everyone so hell bent on his accuracy? It's a liability in close quarters,  and you can shoot as well with a human soldier with a little adjustment(Granted, from cover). He also doesn't have grenades on 0 cooldown or a free reload or instant mini-ops pack.

Modifié par Nereithr, 05 mai 2012 - 06:15 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Nereithr wrote...
Turian soldier. Why is everyone so hell bent on his accuracy? It's a liability in close quarters,  and you can shoot as well with a human soldier with a little adjustment(Granted, from cover). He also doesn't have grenades on 0 cooldown or a free reload or instant mini-ops pack.

Yeah, he's basically an alternative sniper who can't dodge, cloak, deal large amounts of area damage, or headshot phantoms.  And he has to choose between sniping OR using proximity mine (or concussive shot) rather than just doing both at the same time.

I don't agree with it being a liability in close quarters, though. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 06:20 .

[Poekel]

Raw DPS isn't as important as some might think.  For example, how does the Turian Soldier handle phantoms?  And not being able to roll is a problem against Geth.  And he just can't run through spawn groups of reapers like many others can.

Concussive shot when using a Hurricane (personally I always forget to use it but I dont consider myself very skilled)? Headshot when using a Talon (1 shot KO).

Imo the damage ist that high that the missing roll should not be that much of an issue in the hands of a skilled player (especially against Geth as any Geth can be headshot).

[GodlessPaladin]

Poekel wrote...

Raw DPS isn't as important as some might think.  For example, how does the Turian Soldier handle phantoms?  And not being able to roll is a problem against Geth.  And he just can't run through spawn groups of reapers like many others can.

Concussive shot when using a Hurricane (personally I always forget to use it but I dont consider myself very skilled)?

I've tried that and it doesn't seem to work at all.  Concussive shot just makes them dodge or throw up their barrier, as does automatic weapons fire.  Both mean that you have to whittle them down relatively slowly.  As if that wasn't bad enough already, there's basically no way I know of you can just stand out there and fight multiple phantoms at a time as a full auto Turian Soldier.   He'll get shot.

Am I missing something?

Headshot when using a Talon (1 shot KO).

  Don't know about this one.  Never was able to get my talon levelled up much. 

Nereithr wrote...



Why is human engineer C tier? I beleive
he has the fastest killing speed of all engineers, due to both overload
and incinerate + combat drone rockets. Maybe i am wrong and just base it
on the fact that he is efficient by himself(self made tech
bursts)

I actually find myself having an easier time making my own tech bursts as something like a Salarian Infiltrator than a Human Engineer.  I can just spam tech bursts continuously on an Atlas and kill everything around it with tech burst + prox mine damage without waiting for the huge amount of time it takes the Engineer to do it... without the sniper or prox mine damage.

As for the fastest killing speed... don't forget the Geth Engineer's hunter mode combined with Overload and a turret that allows a more sustainable offense for the team.  And it still has Geth Melee, even if it's not as good as the GI's version.  In the time that an Engineer would do Overload/Incinerate, a Geth has done Overload+shoot everyone to death.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 06:43 .

[exelius_]

After playing (and see others play) the Krogan Soldier, this class is seriously underrated. The buff to Inferno Grenades have turned it into a powerhouse IMO. Maybe not an A on the level of an asari adept or a geth engineer, but a strong B in my mind; especially against cerberus.

Specifically, due to some weird mechanics on the GPS, you can basically rapidfire it with carnage. If you do this in a crowd of things that you already lobbed an inferno grenade at, well, the ensuing explosion is pretty wicked. Without the inferno grenade, you can effectively 1-shot most enemies (really 2 shots and a carnage, but you can get all of them off in under a second.)

Also, they are nigh-unkillable thanks to being a krogan; and they have the heavy melee. Even when you bypass all the melee buffs, it still staggers the target and leaves you time to reload and rapidfire GPS/carnage/GPS. I can take down phantoms in 4 shots/1 carnage/1 melee, all in the span of about 4 seconds.

I play mine with a 4/6/6/6/4 build; max out carnage for radius, knockdown and armor dmg, inferno grenades for dmg/dmg/radius, and max weapon damage in the third tree. Use the other 2 trees for survivability.

[Scalabrine]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Ladies and gentleman, because you asked for my opinion, I present you...

GP's rough draft tier list:

A tier:  Best of the best.  These are the speed demons.
Geth Infiltrator
Salarian Infiltrator
Drell Adept
Asari Adept
Human Vanguard
Human Sentinel (vs Reapers)
Asari Justicar (Offensive)
Human Adept (vs Reapers on White and Glacier)

B tier:  Almost as good as A, but not quite.
Human Infiltrator
Asari Vanguard (vs Cerberus)
Human Soldier (Yes, really, the new buffs are actually kinda nice.  Now if only there were more good weapons for it...)
Batarian Soldier (though stagger vs Geth is pretty awful)
Geth Engineer
Salarian Engineer
Quarian Infiltrator
Drell Vanguard (vs Reapers with a biotic team on cramped maps)

C tier:  Totally viable, but without the upper potential of the others.
Turian Sentinel
Krogan Soldier
Turian Soldier 
Krogan Sentinel
Human Engineer
Quarian Engineer
Batarian Sentinel

bugged melee tier:
Krogan Vanguard (doesn't receive rage bonus to damage!  Whyyyy?)

__________________________________________________________________________________


This tier list is built upon the following conceits:

-All characters are assumed to be used with a high level of execution, for the same reason that every halfway respectable and respected tier list doesn't take "ease of use" into account.  I assume that Infiltrators are capable of getting headshots, Vanguards are capable of dodging melee staggers and tanking properly, Asari can tell when to use Warp or Throw, et cetera.

-With a high level of execution, you will usually win Gold with any class, against any faction.  Therefore, talking about the highest chance of victory seems a bit irrelevant... all of them are something like 99% if you've got 4 people who really know what they're doing, even if everyone's a Turian Soldier or whatever.  Instead, I look at which classes clear out the challenges most reliably and efficiently.

-This list is not concerned with Bronze or Silver.

-You have access to items that synergize with these classes and use them.

-Tiers are about effectiveness, not how fun a class is to play.  That's not saying that how fun a class is to play for you doesn't matter (it matters a lot!), but it does mean that it's irrelevant to this topic.

Remember people, you can beat or even solo Gold with every class, and ultimately player skill and cooperation is more important than class choice.

Also, I'd be glad to provide more information regarding which strategies make the various classes work highly competitively, both in solo gold runs and on teams.  I also would be glad for constructive input regarding strategies I may have missed.


FAQ:

Q:  Why is the Salarian Engineer B tier?  He's great for my favorite Geth farming strategy!
A:  I posted a few responses to this later in the thread, but I think Karmaz sums it up nicely.

KarmaZ wrote...

For those who are missing the point here.

The reason that salarian engineers are on B tier is because it is not the best class for offensive efficiency.

SE is an extremely versatile class that you can play with almost any sorts of random players and carry them to victory with little effort, but that's about it.

It may not be the most optimal class if you are aiming for maximum clear speed efficiency.
Afterall, it's a defensive class, sure it can dominate in every game, but if we are talking about speed, Salarian Engineer is indeed only a B tier.

Check out some of the speed running vids, how many of them involved using SE?

Q:  I saw someone top the scoreboard on gold with class X!  Why is class X not rated higher?
A:  Because you can top the scoreboard on gold with any class, even a level 1 soldier (if you don't believe me, there are videos floating around all over the place).  With skill and a good weapon, it is entirely feasible to outperform the masses.  As mentioned in the section where I list the conceits on which this tier list is based, all classes can succeed on Gold in the right hands.  As such, possessing the basic capability to succeed on gold is not a good argument for tier placement.  There is a difference between "can do it well" and "can do it better," and that's where the tiers come in.

Q:  I think you got something in the tier list wrong!  How do I get you to fix it?
A:  If you think I missed something, give me more information with which to enhance my analysis of the class in question.  I am entirely open to discussion and will change my ratings in the face of evidence and compelling argument.  Simply telling me "I think you underrated class X!" is not constructive.  Instead, try suggesting a strategy and build that utilizes said class to its (you feel) not-yet-recognized potential, and I will test it thoroughly as soon as I get a chance, and alter the tier list accordingly.  Linking videos, threads, or whatever as reference is also helpful. 
In other words, you need to give me an *actual argument,* rather than just stating your differring conclusions, in order to be constructive.

Q:  This tier list looks incomplete.  What's the deal with that?
A:  As a rationalist interested in being as objective and accurate as possible, I did not want to leap to overly hasty conclusions regarding classes that I have not examined extremely thoroughly, testing with a variety of optimized strategies and making in depth comparisons to every other class (including other underused classes) and their performance against various factions on various maps.  Especially when rating classes that are underused against each other, many people just wing it.  Lots of people posting tier lists just post their vague initial impressions for lots of the classes, and that's not a good thing.  I will be gradually updating this thread as I receive more information and input, and do more testing.  As this process continues, more classes will be rated, and they will be rated in more specific ways (such as having more tiers, and rating individually against different factions, or rating different categories of builds).

(Update:  It's less incomplete than before!)

It's one thing to make a solid tier list and there's personal preferences.

From someone who plays fighting games competitively in which tier lists are essential i must say this is the stupidest thing i've ever seen. From what im seeing you're rating characters based on how super fast you can clear gold, which is stupid. They should be rated based on overall effiency and how they hold themselves alone and whithin a team. Making specifications for a character to be in, and then rating them is just stupid. Let's say the drell vanguard is good in Glacier but he's horrible in Dagger, the hell is this lol?


Putting the Human Adept in A tier just because it's good against one particular enemy in one particular map is proposterous.

Salarian Eng. hast the 2nd best get the **** off me move and it functions perfectly in almost every map. I don't care how many buffs the human soldier received he simply cannot be in the same tier with the SE, GE or Batarian Soldier, the character doesn't inspire teamwork much less confidence. I've been playig gold matches non stop with him and no he shouldn't be B tier.

Even with all the nerfs there is no way in hell the Drell Vang who has the worst power combinations within itself simply cannot be on top of the Human Eng and Turian Sent. Again you're rating a character because he's relatively good (average really) in an all biotic team, what happens when he's playing with 3 geth?

A good way to to rate characters would be to calculate their efficiency with all types of teams, which is arduous but necessary...


So no, i don't approve of this atrocity you call a tier list...

Modifié par Scalabrine, 05 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[GodlessPaladin]

exelius_ wrote...

After playing (and see others play) the Krogan Soldier, this class is seriously underrated. The buff to Inferno Grenades have turned it into a powerhouse IMO. Maybe not an A on the level of an asari adept or a geth engineer, but a strong B in my mind; especially against cerberus.

  Maybe.  I guess for me it's just a question of whether Carnage and a bit of extra shields + krogan melee is a match for the 18 meter radial blast of cone upgraded Ballistic Blades staggerring enemies twice. 

Specifically, due to some weird mechanics on the GPS, you can basically rapidfire it with carnage.

  Explain?

If you do this in a crowd of things that you already lobbed an inferno grenade at, well, the ensuing explosion is pretty wicked. Without the inferno grenade, you can effectively 1-shot most enemies (really 2 shots and a carnage, but you can get all of them off in under a second.)

  I just throw two inferno grenades (or 1 and a ballistic blades) and move on to the next spawn group.  What do I need to waste my attention span on fire explosions for?

I play mine with a 4/6/6/6/4 build; max out carnage for radius, knockdown and armor dmg, inferno grenades for dmg/dmg/radius, and max weapon damage in the third tree. Use the other 2 trees for survivability.

Okay, why 4 points in Fortification at the expense of Fitness?  And why armor damage instead of damage in general?  One would think +50% damage vs everything would be handier than an extra 15% damage against Atlasses with their shields down.

[Poekel]

Am I missing something?

Not really, but a Sniper based GI does have similar problems. On the other hand a TS is really good at getting rid of all the other Cerb troops. Assuming a skilled team somebody else could take care of phantoms. Like I said I always foget to use concussive shot but someone on this forum wrote that it's usefull to keep a Phantom "locked" in defensive status (not attacking anymore).

Headshot when using a Talon (1 shot KO).

  Don't know about this one.  Never was able to get my talon levelled up much. 

If my calculations are correct a Talon at lvl 3 should be enough to do that (VI 3, Ammo Piercing 3). Might have gotten the way ammunitions work wrong (added 0.3 damage for each bullet without any other bonuses. In this exact case it should not matter if the AP extra damage is applied before any bullet hits (full damage on shields) or if the damage is applied per bullet before it hits (3x damage on shields before it is depleted; 3x damage on health).

[GodlessPaladin]

Scalabrine wrote... From what im seeing you're rating characters based on how super fast you can clear gold, which is stupid. They should be rated based on overall effiency and how they hold themselves alone and whithin a team.

Ah, well since I'm apparently so "stupid" how about you clear something up for me. How do you define "overall efficiency" if not by clear times?  Clear times are a direct and measurable result of how efficiently you complete the objectives of the game.

Even with all the nerfs there is no way in hell the Drell Vang who has the worst power combinations within itself simply cannot be on top of the Human Eng and Turian Sent. Again you're rating a character because he's relatively good (average really) in an all biotic team, what happens when he's playing with 3 geth?

The tier list assumes a character is being used in optimal conditions for that character. If those conditions are particularly narrow, it is noted.  This is because if you are optimizing a team, you are picking the best character for a specific matchup, not a character that excels in other maps, against other factions.

A good way to to rate characters would be to calculate their efficiency with all types of teams, which is arduous but necessary...

This is actually an impossible way to rate characters in a reasonable fashion, since the effectiveness of some characters varies wildly by matchup, and how nice you are in matchups you *aren't playing right now* counts for nothing in reality.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 07:10 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Poekel wrote...

Am I missing something?

Not really, but a Sniper based GI does have similar problems. On the other hand a TS is really good at getting rid of all the other Cerb troops. Assuming a skilled team somebody else could take care of phantoms. Like I said I always foget to use concussive shot but someone on this forum wrote that it's usefull to keep a Phantom "locked" in defensive status (not attacking anymore).

Being able to quickly kill phantoms is pretty important for efficiently killing Cerberus, because A) they deplete the enemy spawn budget quickly, especially compared to how fast some classes can kill them and because they come in angry swarms.

Poekel wrote...
If my calculations are correct a Talon at lvl 3
should be enough to do that (VI 3, Ammo Piercing 3). Might have gotten
the way ammunitions work wrong (added 0.3 damage for each bullet without
any other bonuses. In this exact case it should not matter if the AP
extra damage is applied before any bullet hits (full damage on shields)
or if the damage is applied per bullet before it hits (3x damage on
shields before it is depleted; 3x damage on health).

What one has to remember is that the primary defense mechanism of a Phantom is not raw health and damage numbers... it's their defensive abilities which drastically  mitigate the damage of certain tactics.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 07:17 .

[Spiffspoo]

 
 Incendiary Ammo Claymore Warp glitch? What is this?

[We Tigers]

In your list, every other class has a caveat. "Vs. Reapers on a cramped map" is a pretty big qualifier. I think you might end up with a more compelling list if you did one for each enemy faction, as I think Sabresandiego did a while back.

I also think your Salarian Engineer rank is silly as it's always been, but I guess the clear time mechanic makes it somewhat viable. That said, I find that an SE expedites clear time significantly because he never dies and keeps the team alive with decoy.

[mpompeo27]

I would argue for Geth Engineer being in a B+/A- tier . The build I would recommend for this is 6/6/6/3/5 specced in the following way:
Turret:
Rank 4 - Shields/Damage
Rank 5 - Restore range
Rank 6 - Flamethrower (Note: I've never attempted to solo Gold and it's entirely possible that Restore Frequency would be better for that)

Hunter Mode:
Rank 4 - Power Recharge
Rank 5 - Power Damage
Rank 6 - Damage

Overload:
Rank 4 - Chain
Rank 5 - Neural shock
Rank 6 - Shield Damage

Advanced Hardware:
Rank 4 - Durability
Rank 5 - Shield Recharge

2 loadouts I like to use for this build.

Loadout A:
Weapons - Phaeston w/ stability and piercing mods
Equipment - Armor piercing ammo (combo'd w/ the piercing mod this makes quick work of heavy enemies after shields stripped with overload), Assault rifle rail amp, Either Cyclonic Modulator or Power Amplifier Module

Loadout B:
Weapons - Carnifex w/ pistol scope and high caliber barrel, GPSMG w/ heat sink and magazine upgrade (Note: Paladin may be better than the Carnifex but I don't have it yet so I cannot confirm that.)
Equipment - Cryo Ammo (slows down enemies to compensate for slower ROF from Carnifex), Pistol Rail Amp, Power Efficiency Module

The basic strategy employed for this build is Overload>>Headshot(s)>>Repeat.  I prefer to use soft cover rather than hard cover whenever possible and employ turrets liberally as a distraction and for shield regeneration.  The Phaeston loadout is probably the more effective of the two. With the Rank 6 shield damage on Overload, any shield/barrier can be stripped in 1-3 shocks, and as mentioned above the combo of piercing mod w/ armor piercing ammo then makes very quick work of any armor underneath. This is extremely noticeable against Geth Pyros who generally won't even get close enough to start firing and even the boss enemies tend to fall quickly since they are generally slow which makes it easy to hit with all 50 rounds in the Phaeston clip, even while firing full-auto, uninterrupted.

So yeah let me know what you think of these suggestoins for the GE.

Also, I don't think the 3 human characters you currently have in tier A. As you've pointed out, their effectiveness is highly dependent on the map, situation, and other team members and that to me warrants a much lower ranking. No specific suggestions on what tiers they should be, but I do think all 3 of them should be ranked below my suggested GE build.

Modifié par mpompeo27, 17 mai 2012 - 08:11 .

[Wesus]

No god tier?

Not a good list, I recommend you to have a look at a SSMB tier list with meta-knight as god tier etc.

List isnt good.