344 réponses à ce sujet

[Ascended Nagato]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

AndanteInBlue wrote...

If weight the maximum potential of a human vanguard against the likelihood of encountering (or being) someone who is achieving that potential, he suddenly doesn't seem so hot. At _best_, I would put him in A-, with the understanding that he's excellent "situationally" (highly dependent on player skill and temperament). He certainly does not belong to "can't go wrong with these guys", but they very often do go wrong.

You can go wrong with a Salarian Infiltrator or Asari Adept just as easily with bad players.  Again, the tier list clearly stipulates in the OP that it assumes competent utilization of the classes.

Ascended Nagato wrote...
And what about the other reasons?

You mean the skill thing?  That's answered in the OP. 

No, With the only way he can only shine in Gold in with Biotic Explosions that have to be set u by other players. And if your not host you will get murdered. You cant really charge banshees without getting insta killed

Modifié par Ascended Nagato, 08 avril 2012 - 03:50 .

[Killateral DMG]

My personal tier list:
A tier: You can't go wrong with these guys.
Salarian Infiltrator
Asari Adept


A- tier: As awesome as A when in their element, not so hot when not.
Drell Adept (with good biotic teammates, like their own personal vanguard)
Human Sentinel (Could be as good as the asari adept if ot had statis too)
Human Vanguard (Needs biotic support, host, and luck on their side not to get insta gibbed)

B tier:  Almost as good as A, but not quite.
Human Infiltrator
Salarian Engineer
Human Engineer 
Turian Soldier (Can really make sub par/average guns amazing. Trying using the Falcon with cryo rounds with max rate of fire marksman build)
Turian Sentinel (Overload and Warp makes for very good tech/biotic set ups for your teammates)
Quarian Infiltrator (Amazing vs Geth [Sabotage] but against other faction there is very few things you can sabotage (Atlas/Turrets for Cerberus and nothing for Reapers. I use QI as my sniper damage cloak build while SI is for power spam)


C tier: The rest of the crap.
Human Soldier 
Krogan Soldier (Higher difficulties makes their melee dominance useless)
Krogan Sentinel (Same as Krogan Soldier)
Human Engineer
Quarian Engineer
Asari Vanguard (Honestly find no use in them at all) 
Drell Vanguard (Same as AV)
Human Adept (Only good for setting up other biotic teammates)

Modifié par Killateral DMG, 08 avril 2012 - 03:51 .

[GodlessPaladin]

RazRei wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
I have already conceded this point and edited the OP in response to it.  There is no need to beat a dead horse.

Sorry I just like to beat a dead horse till the flesh is melting off.

BTW I have to say the Human Engineer and Salarian Engineer should both be in the A Tier.

As CC and just overall effectiveness they're both top notch.  The human may have a slight edge when it comes dmg output and such but the Salarian is no slouch.  Also the Decoy > Drone when it comes to keeping a mobs intrest.

The Human Vanguard is at least as good CC and does more damage while he's at it.  The constant combo detonations (of all four types!) are icing on that cake.  Also, the Salarian Engineer just doesn't have the sheer offensive power to really run with the top tier in terms of efficiency in clearing challenges, which I listed as a factor in determining the tiers.  Don't get me wrong, he's super awesome, just not quite as awesome as the A tier guys under the criteria I listed for ranking the classes.

I really don't see the argument for the Human Engineer at all.  I've tried tons of different strategies with him and couldn't get him to perform on the level of the Salarian Engineer, let alone give him a spot on a speedrun team trying to break our team's records and such.  I didn't even see an advantage in damage output... Energy Drain is damaging, has a good AoE, and facilitates a more continuous and uninterrupted offense.  Decoy also facilitates a more continuous and uninterrupted offense, not to mention grouping up tons of mobs for easy clearing with tech bursts and teammate area effects.

If you have a specific strategy for me to try, please suggest it.

Ascended Nagato wrote...
No, With the only way he can only
shine in Gold in with Biotic Explosions that have to be set u by other
players. And if your not host you will get murdered. You cant really
charge banshees without getting insta killed

I already conceded the host thing.  As for the biotic explosions, keep in mind that he sets off ALL FOUR
types of combo explosions, and can wreck house with engineers and
infiltrators at his back almost as well as if he had biotics at his
back.  If I took differences in performance across situations this small
into account, Salarian Infiltrator would be in A- tier because he's not
as good against Reapers as he is against Geth or Cerberus.  Or the
Asari Adept would be A- because stasis only gets really good mileage
against Cerberus, and geth are a bit more resistant to biotic
explosions.

It's also notable that I had no trouble soloing all 3 factions in gold as the Human Vanguard.

The Human Vanguard....
-Has quite high damage on his own.  The only things that he doesn't kill super quickly alone are the extra heavy targets (banshees, atlasses, primes).
-Is a ridiculously effective crowd control tank that makes things like hacking circle objectives trivial.
-Sets off all four kinds of combo explosions very effectively (fire and cryo explosions go off more than they otherwise would because the Vanguard is doing enough damage with his powers that he's often getting the last hit in).  Also note that non-biotic explosions have been recently buffed.  Everything on the high tier list sets up combos.  Ammo powers set up combos too.

I have tested a Vanguard in a no-biotic (excedpt the Vanguard herself of course) speed run vs Geth on Glacier and we got a bit over 20 minutes, and the Vanguard was at the top of the board.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 avril 2012 - 04:03 .

[Sp3c7eR]

All tiers and rankings related to class effectiveness must be done with enemy faction in mind. Unless you do that, there's always going to be somebody who comes up and says "Oh look, you put Asari Adept in tier A, but against Geth she's way worse than Salarian Engineer". Which would be absolutely correct.

So maybe a good idea would be to rank the classes vs Geth/Cerberus/Reapers respectively? Salarian infiltrator vs reaper isn't as good as a human and vs Geth is on par with Quarian. At least that's my opinion so far.

[Keldaurz]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

Because human vanguards need biotic explosions to really shine against some factions on gold (also they need to be the hoster, yes or yes).

RazRei wrote...

The Human Vanguard is **** if you're not hosting.

I suppose you have a point, though I am loathe to list metagame restrictions like "must be host."

Well you also forget how withouth biotic explosions you are very likely to get instagibbed on gold against reapers for example. So yes, they aren't a "doesn't matter what you group is, a human vanguard is fine", because it's not true, he should be on the same tier as a drell adept, because he requires biotic explosions disrupting enemies.

And don't listen the trolls saying "human vanguard A tier must be kiddinz", they are just silverplayers who take forums too seriously and haven't even researched enough

Modifié par Keldaurz, 08 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[Keldaurz]

And btw, i disagree on turian sentinel. He should be on top, because he can strip shields, cc, tech burst and combo biotics when paired with another biotic user. He is the jack of all trades and fit into any group.

[Sabresandiego]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

All tiers and rankings related to class effectiveness must be done with enemy faction in mind. Unless you do that, there's always going to be somebody who comes up and says "Oh look, you put Asari Adept in tier A, but against Geth she's way worse than Salarian Engineer". Which would be absolutely correct.

So maybe a good idea would be to rank the classes vs Geth/Cerberus/Reapers respectively? Salarian infiltrator vs reaper isn't as good as a human and vs Geth is on par with Quarian. At least that's my opinion so far.

Yes you are correct, and my tier list used to be seperated into 3, but it was just too complicated so I made 1 tier list and called it overall effectiveness.

[Radwar]

Ascended Nagato wrote...

This would be my list:

A tier: You can't go wrong with these guys.
Asari Adept
Salarian Infiltrator

A- tier: As awesome as A when in their element, not so hot when not.
Quarian Infiltrator
Human Vanguard
Drell Adept

B tier: Almost as good as A, but not quite.
Human Infiltrator
Salarian Engineer
Asari Vanguard
Drell Vanguard
Turian Soldier
Turian Sentinel

C tier: The rest of the crap.
Human Sentinel
Krogan Soldier
Krogan Sentinel
Human Adept
Human Engineer
Human Soldier
Quarian Engineer

Sorry but placing Human Sentinel in tier c made me laugh. Seriously a class that can spam biotic detonations by itself automatically makes it a superior class.

[Killateral DMG]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

All tiers and rankings related to class effectiveness must be done with enemy faction in mind. Unless you do that, there's always going to be somebody who comes up and says "Oh look, you put Asari Adept in tier A, but against Geth she's way worse than Salarian Engineer". Which would be absolutely correct.

So maybe a good idea would be to rank the classes vs Geth/Cerberus/Reapers respectively? Salarian infiltrator vs reaper isn't as good as a human and vs Geth is on par with Quarian. At least that's my opinion so far.

The geth aren't immune to biotic explosion. They get demolished by it pretty equally.

[GodlessPaladin]

Keldaurz wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

Because human vanguards need biotic explosions to really shine against some factions on gold (also they need to be the hoster, yes or yes).

RazRei wrote...

The Human Vanguard is **** if you're not hosting.

I suppose you have a point, though I am loathe to list metagame restrictions like "must be host."

Well you also forget how withouth biotic explosions you are very likely to get instagibbed on gold against reapers for example. So yes, they aren't a "doesn't matter what you group is, a human vanguard is fine", because it's not true, he should be on the same tier as a drell adept, because he requires biotic explosions disrupting enemies.

And don't listen the trolls saying "human vanguard A tier must be kiddinz", they are just silverplayers who take forums too seriously and haven't even researched enough

You realize that the "instagibs" are easily interruptable, right?

Also I have tested a Vanguard in a no-biotic (excedpt the Vanguard herself of course) speed run vs Geth on Glacier and we got a bit over 20 minutes, and the Vanguard was at the top of the board.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 avril 2012 - 04:03 .

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

Because human vanguards need biotic explosions to really shine against some factions on gold (also they need to be the hoster, yes or yes).

RazRei wrote...

The Human Vanguard is **** if you're not hosting.

I suppose you have a point, though I am loathe to list metagame restrictions like "must be host."

DRUNK_CANADIAN wrote...

Human vanguard is A tier :/ wut?

Its
the best vanguard and is spam happy, but all that effectiveness
vanishes on gold when w/o shields you get dropped faster than you can
react, its almost a negative.

Salarian Engineer needs to be
switched with the human vanguard, the ability to lure with clones and
spam nukes, make it one of the best casters, also asari vanguard can be
played almost exactly like an adept, so it is relatively high up there,
with the tradeoff being its powers are not as good for comboing, but can
charge heal self.

You have clearly never seen a genuinely good Vanguard player playing Gold.  Here is a link to an example:

Host...

Also Salarian Engineer still deserves to be higher up, its a strong caster class, and has a support ability which draws fire VERY effectively, seriously its almost like stasis for everything.

[Viquey]

I gotta put my vote in for bumping up Salarian Engineer a tier or two. He's an absolute beast. Unless you pay attention to him or play him, you might not notice it 'cause he often doesn't score very high, but he is undoubtedly an incredible asset to any team.

I'd also kinda like to see Quarian Engineer bumped up a bit--or maybe add another tier to split the crowd in C up a bit--'cause she's an excellent debuffer and distractor. Again, though, it's easy to miss what she's doing and difficult to calculate what effect she's actually having because she will be getting way more assists than kills, thus fewer points. She's not great, but she's certainly not the bottom of the pile.

lastly, I dunno about the Quarian Infiltrator--it's hard to rate infiltrators poorly because they can all cloak and snipe/shotgun, which is extremely effective and versatile on its own. Sticky grenades are meh, and sabotage is highly situational, though. But is it more or less useful than cryo blast? That is the question!

[marshalleck]

Drell adepts are awesome even without other biotics.

[GodlessPaladin]

marshalleck wrote...

Drell adepts are awesome even without other biotics.

Perhaps.  As awesome as an Asari Adept without other biotics, though?  I remain skeptical.  Suggest a strategy to me and I will test it out.

Remember, "super-awesome, but not quite as awesome as this other guy who does my job" is B-tier.  B-tier is NOT a bad place to be unless you're actually trying to break speedrun records or something.

Viquey wrote...

I gotta put my vote in for bumping up
Salarian Engineer a tier or two. He's an absolute beast. Unless you pay
attention to him or play him, you might not notice it 'cause he often
doesn't score very high, but he is undoubtedly an incredible asset to
any team.

I'd also kinda like to see Quarian Engineer bumped up a
bit--or maybe add another tier to split the crowd in C up a bit--'cause
she's an excellent debuffer and distractor. Again, though, it's easy to
miss what she's doing and difficult to calculate what effect she's
actually having because she will be getting way more assists than kills,
thus fewer points. She's not great, but she's certainly not the bottom
of the pile.

lastly, I dunno about the Quarian Infiltrator--it's
hard to rate infiltrators poorly because they can all cloak and
snipe/shotgun, which is extremely effective and versatile on its own.
Sticky grenades are meh, and sabotage is highly situational, though. But
is it more or less useful than cryo blast? That is the
question!

Don't forget, B tier doesn't mean that it's not awesome.  It is super-awesome, it's just not quite as awesome as A tier.  I provided some more detailed explanations for why the Salarian Engineer isn't quite at the top earlier in this thread.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

All tiers and rankings related to class effectiveness must be done with enemy faction in mind. Unless you do that, there's always going to be somebody who comes up and says "Oh look, you put Asari Adept in tier A, but against Geth she's way worse than Salarian Engineer". Which would be absolutely correct.

So maybe a good idea would be to rank the classes vs Geth/Cerberus/Reapers respectively? Salarian infiltrator vs reaper isn't as good as a human and vs Geth is on par with Quarian. At least that's my opinion so far.

This is true and I agree, but I tried to eliminate having 3 different tier lists because of the concerns Sabresandiego voiced.  As a compromise, I added the "A-" tier, which identified standout exceptions that were a lot better in certain situations.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 avril 2012 - 04:14 .

[Sp3c7eR]

Killateral DMG wrote...

The geth aren't immune to biotic explosion. They get demolished by it pretty equally.

The only Geth unit unable to dodge Warp/Throw is the Prime. That makes Geth pretty resistant to biotic combos. Also you have to bear in mind that pyro/hunter shields can't be taken down by a single biotic detonation. I can guarantee you'll have a very difficult time beating Geth with an all-biotic team as opposed to Reapers, who tend to group together and are mostly armored which is where Biotics shine.

Tech bursts are now equally powerful as biotic combos, they are instant and can't be dodged which makes them much more useful against Geth. Chain overload is ideal to set them up and Energy Drain detonates them beautifully. They do a lot of damage and have a huge radius. In short, tech classes have it a lot easier vs Geth than biotics which is why Salarian Engineer is much more useful than Asari Adept.

[GodlessPaladin]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Killateral DMG wrote...

The geth aren't immune to biotic explosion. They get demolished by it pretty equally.

The only Geth unit unable to dodge Warp/Throw is the Prime. That makes Geth pretty resistant to biotic combos. Also you have to bear in mind that pyro/hunter shields can't be taken down by a single biotic detonation. I can guarantee you'll have a very difficult time beating Geth with an all-biotic team as opposed to Reapers, who tend to group together and are mostly armored which is where Biotics shine.

Tech bursts are now equally powerful as biotic combos, they are instant and can't be dodged which makes them much more useful against Geth. Chain overload is ideal to set them up and Energy Drain detonates them beautifully. They do a lot of damage and have a huge radius. In short, tech classes have it a lot easier vs Geth than biotics which is why Salarian Engineer is much more useful than Asari Adept.

If anything, I'm inclined to say the Asari Adept is more situational than the Human Vanguard.  The Human Vanguard is a wonderful trigger for tech, cryo, and fire explosions and stomps all over the things that usually are the Geth's meanest threats, and I have no trouble at all soloing with her.  Also, all complaints about instagibs with the Vanguard become irrelevant with the Geth.  By contrast, hunter/pyro swarm can be scary to an Asari Adept.

Still, I think that the ranks are just fine as they are.  A- tier is for things that have a really noticeable drop in effectiveness in the wrong situation, not a little drop.  Both Asari Adept and Asari Vanguard love to fight Cerberus, but the Asari Vanguard drops a lot more when NOT fighting Cerberus than the Asari Adept does, for example (probably more than the Drell Adept and Human Sentinel too, but you get the idea).

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[Tengolicious]

human Adept = A tier, they do well with fighting against organics or biotic explosions vs shields/armor.

human engineer = B class, good against shields / tech bursting.

[GodlessPaladin]

Tengolicious wrote...

human Adept = A tier, they do well with fighting against organics or biotic explosions vs shields/armor.

  The sounds like B tier to me, unless you think Warp/Shockwave/Singularity is just as good as Warp/Throw/Stasis.

I don't have far too much experience with the Human Adept, either playing it or seeing other people play it, but my initial impressions were that throw was better than Shockwave and Stasis was better than Singularity.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 avril 2012 - 04:22 .

[Tengolicious]

human Adept = A tier, they do well with fighting against organics or biotic explosions vs shields/armor. (they have varietys of biotic explosions, like expanding singularity + warp/shock wave = biotic explosion, warp + shockwave = biotic explosion and lifting shockwave + warp = biotic explosion.)

Modifié par Tengolicious, 08 avril 2012 - 04:23 .

[Ascended Nagato]

Tengolicious wrote...



human Adept = A tier, they do well with fighting against organics or biotic explosions vs shields/armor. (they have varietys of biotic explosions, like expanding singularity + warp/shock wave = biotic explosion, warp + shockwave = biotic explosion and lifting shockwave + warp = biotic explosion.)

That pretty much sounds like a weaker version of the Asari Adept\\Vanguard. Which it is.

[ezrafetch]

I'd bump up HE to B and SE to A-. HE's Chain Overload+Neural Shock is super boss, and drone spam, while not as durable as Decoy spam, does plenty fine when you're smart about placement. Its output with Overload spam (I go with Damage + Neural Shock + Chain Overload) is insane, allowing you to lock down fields pretty quick. SE is just outright a great class, mostly support but you rack up tons of points with assists and tech combos, while being super durable to boot with ED and higher base shield than humans, if I remember correctly. SE is also universally applicable, great vs. all factions, which I think makes it deserving of A-.

Don't see anything weird with the tier list, but I think Engineers deserve a bit of a bump. Well, not the poor QE. 

Modifié par ezrafetch, 08 avril 2012 - 04:36 .

[OniGanon]

In my opinion...

Broken (complete hax): SI, AA, SE, HV
Solid (great in most circumstances): DA, TSnt, TSdr, KSnt, QI, HE
Overshadowed (good but another class does it better): HI, HSnt, QE, DV, AV
Bleh (bleh): HSdr, KSdr, BF3, HA

Modifié par OniGanon, 08 avril 2012 - 04:52 .

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Human Infiltrator with GPS or Claymore is better than B tier and also insanely fun. A lot of people seem to be underrating Drell Vanguard and Turian Sentinel so be careful not to do that ;o

I will probably never fully agree with anyones tier list though, so I won't argue too much. 

Exactly.

[Currylaksa]

Human Soldier is in high tier, if you know how to use AR.

Bonus if you got Valiant or BW.