344 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

Sabresandiego wrote...
-Swarmers are a problem for the class, no class is perfect. On a team this is less of an issue. If you are soloing you can bring some kind of sidearm.

  Yeah, you may have seen me mention this earlier when I was posting about my experiences.  Swarmers were a huge pain for this build.  I'll have to try again with a sidearm.

-Use the accuracy and damage mod on the claymore. With the accuracy mod you can often get 1 hit kills even from long range.

  What about armor piercing?  Isn't that important for Reapers?

-Dont put yourself in some terrible close range position just because you have a shotgun. Ideal range is mid, and take evasive action right after firing.

  *Nod* I had no problems with survivability for the most part.  The only thing that gave me pause in my tests were swarmers and phantom swarms (note:  I did not test against Geth).

The team I was playing with when I was trying it out against reapers would NEVER shoot swarmers, and were going down a lot all over the map (Firebase Glacier).  I kept trying to revive people and was nearly dying every time I'd try to cloak and run down a hallways because there'd be like 15 swarmers in my way every time I tried to relocate (or forcing me to relocate because they'd eventually get to me.  Or just severely limiting my avenues of retreat on a map/faction that already does that).  I actually was using grenades like crazy just to try to thin out the swarmers.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[RamsenC]

Bring a Predator or Phalanx X for swamers. You don't need the AP mod since Cyro blast is the best armor debuff in the game.

[GodlessPaladin]

RamsenC wrote...

Bring a Predator or Phalanx X for swamers. You don't need the AP mod since Cyro blast is the best armor debuff in the game.

I take it the armor damage bonus hits a cap or something, then?

[RamsenC]

Oh I'm not sure about that it's just not worth giving up the accuracy for bonus damage to armor when you can already do amazing damage to armor. It's up to what you value more in the end, but doing more damage from medium range is nice.

[GodlessPaladin]

RamsenC wrote...

Oh I'm not sure about that it's just not worth giving up the accuracy for bonus damage to armor when you can already do amazing damage to armor. It's up to what you value more in the end, but doing more damage from medium range is nice.

In my first test (the one where I was soloing Firebase Dagger) I was able to take out a Guardian from up in the tower on Firebase Dagger in 1-2 shots while it was all the way down in in the area below, right by one of the spawns.  That seemed like a pretty good range to me.

Won't I not be able to shoot through their shields if I don't have armor piercing?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 avril 2012 - 01:42 .

[sindrie111]

WHAT I play gold all the time... and win with a human engineer, not crap at all they can perma stun damn near the whole wave by chain spamming overload nural shock.

[GodlessPaladin]

sindrie111 wrote...

WHAT I play gold all the time... and win with a human engineer, not crap at all they can perma stun damn near the whole wave by chain spamming overload nural shock.

C tier doesn't mean that you can't be effective with it.   I can, for example, plow through gold with a Human Soldier with a GPS X and adrenaline rush and set off chains of tech bursts with tech teammates very effectively with concussive shot and top the scoreboard... but I won't pretend that I couldn't do *better* as a different class.

Incidentally, the things that you can't stun with neural shock are the only things that aren't being almost instantly killed in droves by higher ranked classes in good hands.  Seriously, I have no idea why Neural Shock shouldn't work on Phantoms when Throw utterly wrecks them...

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 avril 2012 - 02:05 .

[A Wild Snorlax]

Imo:

Top tier:
Salarian Infiltrator
Asari adept

2nd tier:
Human infiltrator, (with shotgun or black widow/valiant), human vanguard, drell adept, salarian engineer, human sentinel, turian sentinel

3rd tier:
Human soldier, asari vanguard, krogan sentinel/soldier, quarian infiltrator (only good against geth and even then salarian is better imo)human engineer

Crap tier: Drell vanguard, human adept, quarian engineer, turian soldier

Modifié par A Wild Snorlax, 10 avril 2012 - 02:03 .

[A Wild Snorlax]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

Oh I'm not sure about that it's just not worth giving up the accuracy for bonus damage to armor when you can already do amazing damage to armor. It's up to what you value more in the end, but doing more damage from medium range is nice.

In my first test (the one where I was soloing Firebase Dagger) I was able to take out a Guardian from up in the tower on Firebase Dagger in 1-2 shots while it was all the way down in in the area below, right by one of the spawns.  That seemed like a pretty good range to me.

Won't I not be able to shoot through their shields if I don't have armor piercing?

Choke is way better than the AP mod imo, the damage boost to armor isn't that noticable, however the drop in accuracy without the smart choke is pretty huge, your 1 shot kill range becomes a lot shorter.

[GodlessPaladin]

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

Oh I'm not sure about that it's just not worth giving up the accuracy for bonus damage to armor when you can already do amazing damage to armor. It's up to what you value more in the end, but doing more damage from medium range is nice.

In my first test (the one where I was soloing Firebase Dagger) I was able to take out a Guardian from up in the tower on Firebase Dagger in 1-2 shots while it was all the way down in in the area below, right by one of the spawns.  That seemed like a pretty good range to me.

Won't I not be able to shoot through their shields if I don't have armor piercing?

Choke is way better than the AP mod imo, the damage boost to armor isn't that noticable, however the drop in accuracy without the smart choke is pretty huge, your 1 shot kill range becomes a lot shorter.

Yay for not actually answering my question.  <_<

[heybigmoney]

Dylan's tier list:

1. Dylan
2. Dylan
3. Dylan
4. Dylan

etc.

[A Wild Snorlax]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

Oh I'm not sure about that it's just not worth giving up the accuracy for bonus damage to armor when you can already do amazing damage to armor. It's up to what you value more in the end, but doing more damage from medium range is nice.

In my first test (the one where I was soloing Firebase Dagger) I was able to take out a Guardian from up in the tower on Firebase Dagger in 1-2 shots while it was all the way down in in the area below, right by one of the spawns.  That seemed like a pretty good range to me.

Won't I not be able to shoot through their shields if I don't have armor piercing?

Choke is way better than the AP mod imo, the damage boost to armor isn't that noticable, however the drop in accuracy without the smart choke is pretty huge, your 1 shot kill range becomes a lot shorter.

Yay for not actually answering my question.  <_<

You can't penetrate their shields without the ap mod. Still easy to hit them though. Still, i can't stress how much better the choke is overall, makes thed weapon much better all round.

Modifié par A Wild Snorlax, 10 avril 2012 - 02:10 .

[DeliciousBread]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

FAQ:

Q:  Why is the Salarian Engineer B tier?  He's great for my favorite Geth farming strategy!
A:  I posted a few responses to this later in the thread, but I think Karmaz sums it up nicely.

KarmaZ wrote...

For those who are missing the point here.

The reason that salarian engineers are on B tier is because it is not the best class for offensive efficiency.

SE is an extremely versatile class that you can play with almost any sorts of random players and carry them to victory with little effort, but that's about it.

It may not be the most optimal class if you are aiming for maximum clear speed efficiency.
Afterall, it's a defensive class, sure it can dominate in every game, but if we are talking about speed, Salarian Engineer is indeed only a B tier.

Check out some of the speed running vids, how many of them involved using SE?

You've contradicted your own definition of Tier A - You can't go wrong with these guys.
By the answer you've quoted from KarmaZ, he says you can dominate in EVERY game meaning, you can't go wrong with it. It is just sub optimal if you are aiming for clear speed. But then clear speed was not a criteria. Therefore, following your own definition SE falls under Tier A. Oh yea, you also said tiering is something along the lines of effectiveness, which you didn't properly define so there's no point to try and steer that towards clearing speed since, let's face it. Clearing speed depends on the team skill and not just one particular class.

One final thing to point out is you said anyone can solo gold with any class. I don't think so. Prove me wrong by showing me your youtube of you soloing gold on all random maps and races on all classes. Infiltrator and possibly SE are the only ones I can think of that has a slight hope of succeeding with a lot of skill, practice, patience and luck.

Otherwise, not a bad place to start a discussion regarding class balances.

Modifié par DeliciousBread, 10 avril 2012 - 02:29 .

[RamsenC]

I've been having success just shooting through the eye hole. While cloaked, enough headshot damage goes through to kill guardians. Can do the same thing with the GPS.

Modifié par RamsenC, 10 avril 2012 - 02:29 .

[GodlessPaladin]

DeliciousBread wrote...
You've contradicted your own definition of Tier A -[b] You can't go wrong with these guys.

  I think you are assuming that your interpretation of that term is the only one to be had.   I give a more detailed explanation of what the tiers mean further down in the OP, which I feel clearly states that challenge clearing efficiency is considered as a key factor for these rankings.

If you think I should change the wording to be clearer, feel free to suggest an alternative wording.

DeliciousBread wrote...
One final thing to point out is you
said anyone can solo gold with any class. I don't think so. Prove me
wrong by showing me your youtube of you soloing gold on all random maps
and races on all classes. Infiltrator and possibly SE are the only ones I
can think of that has a slight hope of succeeding with a lot of skill,
practice, patience and luck.

  The video in my sig does not involve a Salarian Engineer nor a Salarian Infiltrator.  It's an Asari Vanguard.  So that part of your argument has already been proven wrong (and not just by me, by the way.  There are tons of videos of doing things like "two level 1 soldiers take on Gold Reapers").  Also, you do not need "a lot of luck for only a slight chance of succeeding."  When using my favored classes, I am more likely to succeed on a gold solo run than I am to fail at it.  Pretty much the only thing that ever stops me is getting realy unlucky with objectives (4 device objectives in particularly intractable positions repeatedly can make me run out of time if I don't have tactical cloak, for example).

It would take me a while to post a video of soloing Gold with EVERY class on EVERY map, simply because a solo run takes about an hour, there are six maps, three races per class, and six classes.  That adds up to a minimum of 108 (3x6x6) hours of playtime and recorded video.  And that would be if I was successful on literally 100% of solo runs (which I'm not). You are demanding an unreasonable amount of proof from me, and indeed, I suspect that if I provided it, you would not watch 108 hours of footage.

Oh yeah, one more thing:  I'm pretty sure what I actually said was that you can be successful on gold with any class, which you can.  If you have a team of four competent players, it does not matter what class they're playing:  You're highly probably going to beat those ten waves.  Could you quote where you think I claimed that you could reliably solo with all classes?

RamsenC wrote...

I've been having success just shooting
through the eye hole. While cloaked, enough headshot damage goes through
to kill guardians. Can do the same thing with the GPS.

Yes, but that would reduce my one shot kill range by a lot, wouldn't it?  And like I said with my comment about the Firebase Dagger run, the range didn't seem that short WITHOUT the choke mod.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 avril 2012 - 02:50 .

[Ben Gadura]

OP, you are putting human engineer together with human soldier.This is a joke right? Drone spam locks down banshees, atlases, brutes and primes, and tech bursts deal serious damage now.An exploding drone makes these really easy to pull off.Besides, just by having overload the human engineer is at least mid tier.

[GodlessPaladin]

Ben Gadura wrote...

OP, you are putting human engineer together with human soldier.This is a joke right? Drone spam locks down banshees, atlases, brutes and primes, and tech bursts deal serious damage now.An exploding drone makes these really easy to pull off.Besides, just by having overload the human engineer is at least mid tier.

Two things:

-Yes, the C tier isn't as differentiated as it could be, and I wouldn't consider the things in there to really be equals.  However, I still haven't seen sufficient justification for putting the Human Engineer on the level with the Salarian Engineer or Human Shotgun Infiltrator.  Remember, B tier is extremely good and can easily carry teams, just shy of the A "these are the guys that are keystones in speedrun teams" tier.

I may add more differentiation in the C tier in the future, but I don't feel confident doing so until I have more comparative testing between the underused classes.

-Don't forget that the Human Soldier can do quite a lot of damage.  A GPS X with equipment and Adrenaline Rush will actually kill a banshee pretty fast, and will kill things like brutes before I need to reload.

-I think Overload is a bit Overrated.  The things that it stunlocks are low threat enemies which evaporate in the face of a competent team, and it doesn't have as much effect against enemies like Phantoms as things like Throw.  Still, I feel I could stand to do more testing with tech burst teams when compared to biotic explosion teams, perhaps against Geth and Cerberus.  I haven't had a chance to test some of my ideas on that front yet, however, since it's not too often I can get 4 really good players together who are willing to test out new ideas at the same time.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 avril 2012 - 03:22 .

[Drummernate]

In my book:

S+ = Geth Infiltrator & Engineer... they looks so cool that the rest of your team performs better for some random reason.

A+ = Engineers, they have crazy shield killing capabilities, and are awesome tech bursters.

F- = Battlefield 3 Soldier.... Krogan ROFL stomps him.

[GodlessPaladin]

Drummernate wrote...
S+ = Geth Infiltrator & Engineer... they looks so cool that the rest of your team performs better for some random reason.

Well I can't argue with that. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 avril 2012 - 03:24 .

[DeliciousBread]

My bad. There were many pages. You should revise your original post to encompass any additional amendments in subsequent posts because chances are people like me wanting to join in on the discussion will have missed it. Not necessarily re-wording just a simple addition or edit section onto your OP would be nice.

Also, props on clearing gold solo. That is amazing. I for one, cannot do that. So, I still don't think anyone can clear it. Just a very small portion of players ^^.

[GodlessPaladin]

DeliciousBread wrote...

My bad. There were many pages. You should revise your original post to encompass any additional amendments in subsequent posts because chances are people like me wanting to join in on the discussion will have missed it. Not necessarily re-wording just a simple addition or edit section onto your OP would be nice.

Also, props on clearing gold solo. That is amazing. I for one, cannot do that. So, I still don't think anyone can clear it. Just a very small portion of players ^^.

I will be gradually amending the OP as new information is introduced.  You may notice that it was edited recently, and includes things like a quote from a poster from this thread.

Making a really accurate tier list is not a fast process, even when there is intensive community investment, such as on competitive fighting game forums.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 avril 2012 - 04:01 .

[GodlessPaladin]

So I've been doing more and more testing with the Human Shotgun Infiltrator, taking into account Sabresandiego's suggestions, and I am really liking it. Took four of them into a game earlier today, and I got a video of the results of our first try with it (was playing with one recent friend, and two strangers). Subsequent times were faster as we repeated the strategy. We are now getting about 22 minutes on glacier with minimal item usage. Dunno how fast it'd go with full out equipment and 2 more players as good as me and Achilles.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 avril 2012 - 05:46 .

[Ben Gadura]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Ben Gadura wrote...

OP, you are putting human engineer together with human soldier.This is a joke right? Drone spam locks down banshees, atlases, brutes and primes, and tech bursts deal serious damage now.An exploding drone makes these really easy to pull off.Besides, just by having overload the human engineer is at least mid tier.

Two things:

-Yes, the C tier isn't as differentiated as it could be, and I wouldn't consider the things in there to really be equals.  However, I still haven't seen sufficient justification for putting the Human Engineer on the level with the Salarian Engineer or Human Shotgun Infiltrator.  Remember, B tier is extremely good and can easily carry teams, just shy of the A "these are the guys that are keystones in speedrun teams" tier.

I may add more differentiation in the C tier in the future, but I don't feel confident doing so until I have more comparative testing between the underused classes.

-Don't forget that the Human Soldier can do quite a lot of damage.  A GPS X with equipment and Adrenaline Rush will actually kill a banshee pretty fast, and will kill things like brutes before I need to reload.

-I think Overload is a bit Overrated.  The things that it stunlocks are low threat enemies which evaporate in the face of a competent team, and it doesn't have as much effect against enemies like Phantoms as things like Throw.  Still, I feel I could stand to do more testing with tech burst teams when compared to biotic explosion teams, perhaps against Geth and Cerberus.  I haven't had a chance to test some of my ideas on that front yet, however, since it's not too often I can get 4 really good players together who are willing to test out new ideas at the same time.

Tech bursts are OP against geth and damn good agains cerberus, please do test it. Phantoms go down really fast when you mix drone explosions and overload for combos.

Overload allows players to make more mistakes, and i assume even the best players make some.It's also really good when you have to revive someone whose position is being swarmed.

While the soldier can achieve good damage, it doesn't offer anything to actively help your team get out of trouble, and this essential in a co-op game.Maybe you should divide C tier, or create a bottom tier and put the soldier in there, because there is no way soldiers and engineers are in the same league.

[GodlessPaladin]

Ben Gadura wrote...
While the soldier can achieve good damage, it doesn't offer anything to actively help your team get out of trouble, and this essential in a co-op game.

  Yep, which is part of why it's in the lowest tier.   The soldier has such little UTILITY...

Maybe you should divide C tier, or create a bottom tier and put the soldier in there, because there is no way soldiers and engineers are in the same league.

I have already said I was thinking about dividing C tier once I had more thoroughly tested the lower tier classes against each other.

[Tony208]

Human Adept is definitely in the B tier at least, it's both long range and short range viable unless you're playing Geth. Then you're mostly doing warp and shockwave bombs or trying to get a hunter down enough for singularity.

Modifié par Tony208, 10 avril 2012 - 05:13 .