The Mass Effect is the effect experienced in drive cores, and those are still arounded87 wrote...
Mass Effect with no mass effect. Sigh, who thought that was a good idea?
I'm afraid we need to use... Math (Weekes is right).
Débuté par
MyChemicalBromance
, avril 08 2012 03:25
#401
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 02:03
MyChemicalBromance
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#402
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 02:05
maddlarkin
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[quote]OhoniX wrote...
[quote]
The Quarians were PREPARED to survive those 300 years. Now, their fleet is largely damaged and they need to travel all the way back to Rannoch on limited supplies with damaged ships, wounded soldiers, etc. [/quote]
They don't have to leave immediately. They can take the team to gear-up, and there are plenty of spare parts littering the Sol system.
You mean the spare parts from the blasted, destroyed ships which were shot up by Reaper Beams and then hit by bits of exploding Citadel (assuming you didn't pic control) yes I'm sure there will be some salvage, but how compatable and how operable is a very debatable point
[quote]
You guys want to tell me that our feable sensors can discover a star system two thousand light years away, but miss one in between the star systems 40 and 60 light years away? [/quote]
Yes. It's an imperfect science and it works best for certain types of planets. Based on what I've seen, I'd wager that the ones we've discovered very far away had just the right types of stars and the right types of planets to show up using our existing methods (which mostly depend on VERY large planets that whip relatively smaller suns around). If there were an exact duplicate of the Sol system that was a couple hundred lightyears away, we might not be able to detect any planets from it, and even if we did, we might only pick up Jupiter.
Yes true but recon ships will still need to check out the sytems individually, and report back to ensure the viability not so much in the near by systems but the further you go from infrastructure the more into the blindly into the dark you'll be going
[quote]
B: You have to get to point A to point B before you can create a new relay at point B. Can't use Com bouy's to tell point B to build relay B because there long range coms were tied to the relays (iirc, need to check codex).[/quote]
Except that there are quantum entanglement communicators fo that. And also the Extranet relays are likely still functional.
The Quantum entanglement communicators are high tech expensive and produced under controlled conditions in labs the Reapers flatened... The Extranet relied on the Comm Bouy's destroyed by the Reapers of damaged/ Destroyed by the exploding relays they were near... plus they depended on laser links to the next, isolated pockets may be functioning, but the Extranet as a hole will need the infastructure to be rebuild, n given they are expensive that aint happening soon
[quote]C: After reducing mass, ships use convential thrusters. H2 LOX, Kerosine LOX, metallic H2, whatever. You run into the same problems there we do in todays world. That is, they would have to spend years making ships just to carry all the fuel they need to get to point A to point B. Most of your fuel would be used to....you guessed it-move the fuel from point A to point B.[/quote]
To a point, but they can also harvest fuel along the way.
Also to a point, the majority of stars in the galaxy are M class 76% in the local neighbourhood, are statistically unlikely to have the gas giants you'd need to collect Helium 3 or Hydrogen so a fair amount of route planning, recon and back tracking would be necessary especially on those first few flights into the dark
[quote]
The end of galaxtic civilisation, trade and commerce as we know it, no more istantaneous communication apart from a few quantum entanglement communicatiors aand those are point to point. Plus with there industrail Bases destroyed, attacked worlds will be almost in a dark age level of technology and production without the support of worlds and colonies who were not attacked it could be decades if not centuries for any meaningful recovery.[/quote]
It'd be a set-back, but I see it more like post-war Europe than the dark ages, a few years, definitely, perhaps even decades, but even if they don't rebuild the relays galactic civilization would rebuild itself fairly quickly.
A low tech society can re-build itself quickly, the higher tech, the more infastruture the longer it takes, Post war Europe didn't recover for decades, rationing in Britian didn't end till the 1950's and the last Bomb site in London wasn't cleared till the 2000's. The whole of earth was burning, the smoke clouds alone would have a devestating effect let alone the mega tonnes of unexploded war ordance. The devestation would take centuries to rebuild fully and decades before anything even vaugely resembling normality reassureted itself.
Technology levels would depend very much on where you were and amount of Reaper action on your world, some would be reasonable functional, others stone age. Paradoxically Earth may recover faster simply because of the amount of military assets in system, but even those who retain space flight are likely to form mini coalitions and clusters of trade based in areas of 2-3 months travel, any further would be impractical for shiping.
[quote]
You still have to go inside the Reaper to get to the engine core and that didn't workout so well for Cerbus scientists on the derelict one or the Batarians who found and studied the crashed one. [/quote]
Bah, I'm not even going to entertain this "point" anymore. The Reapers are out of the picture, indoctrination is out of the picture, it's a non-issue.
I see you cut out the second part of my statment, they are out of the picture, but the effects of Indoctronation seem to continue after a Reapers death, I went on to postulate that its effects would be unknown without a directing intelligence possibly continuing a pre-programmed behaviour or simply reducing the over all subjects intellignce level. But to say a process which has been seen to continue after Reaper Death, especially where that death was 37 million years ago (if I'm remembering the rift valley age correctly) will need 'clarification'
[quote]Erm kind of, Stargate used hyperspace travel as opposed to conventianl FTL (warp) from Star Trek and the wormhole from DS9 is more akin to the jumpgate from B5 since those series did a fair amount of ripping each other off. The point is the Relays are the basis of the technology all of it, they are iconic to the franchise, without them, it is a bit like Star Trek with Turians[/quote]
I very much disagree, but you're entitled to be wrong.
How am I wrong, you've been rather specific in your other points... The Mass Effect, the basis of all technology in the franchise all of which is derived from the technology of the relays is pretty central, to the mythology, say Babylon 5 you think jump gates, say Farscape you think Moya, say Stargate... well thats pretty obvious... Mass Effect, Relays.
[quote]
Supplies from where? I suppose the Turians could lend them a few spares if they didn't have a mammoth journey of their own, or the Alliance Navy could since they don't have a planet to rebuild... Besides its likley with the Colonisation of Rannoh underway they had a lot of essential supplies down on the planet, along with non-combatants and food supplies etc yes they can do salvage and all that but its a long journey and chances of having enough to make the whole route, doubtful [/quote]
Post-Sword the Sol System is the galaxy's new gold mine. It's chock full of the detritus of the largest fleet in modern history. After the final battle, my guess would be that only maybe 10-25% of the ships you sent in came out of it in working condition, 50% at the absolute outside, which means that most of them are in bits orbiting Earth. There are plenty of spare parts, rations, fuel, etc. lying around for the taking.
See my earlier post about the possibilites of good salvage from ships destroyed by Reaper blast, especially those which took reactor hits. Fuel, assuming it didn't burn or explode when hit by Reaper fire Fine. Spares, questionable condition at best and Rations, well if you want to eat a MRE thats been exposed to hard vacuum, solar radation, Element Zero and breached reactors, be my guest.
Plus this salvage op. would be incredibly dangerous, I mean unexploded disruptor torpedos from various fighters and underslung cruiser mounts, debries breaching suits, leaking radation from reactors. Would make the supplies last longer though, lot of the salvage techs wouldn't be coming back.
[quote]
Well, given what earth looked like post Reaper invasion, isn't much going to be growing there anytime soon, that sort of wide spread smoke would darken the atmosphere and probably lower global tempretures for years to come, possibly decades, so agriculture to support the still likely Billions of surviours would be problmatic at best. [/quote]
It's really hard to judge the state of Earth at the end, but even if the skies are blackened, they could use alternate farming methods like greenhouse/hydroponic methods, even vat-production. We also don't know how advanced their environmental clean-up capabilities are. I mean, I imagine they terraform worlds from time to time, and with anti-gravity technology they might have some good options for clearing atmo. The Salarians built that spire on Tuchanka, right? An environmental catastrophe that might take the 21st century decades to get over might be cleared wihtin weeks using ME tech.
All your points are true, assuming that a Reaper invasion targeting population and industrial centers hadn't just occured, the infastructure for high tech farming methods just wouldn't be there, the rubble alone would take decades to clear. The Reapers targeted technology, high tech methods for the forseeable are out of the question on a large scale, as is any serious scale enviormental clean up. The fleet resources in system could help with both, hence my earlier comment about earth likely to recover faster than most, but still, decades to centuries.
[quote]
Yes I have seen the ending cinimatics, the horror of them are burned onto my mind. The Relay actually starts to break apart as it fires, producing an explosion with significant kinetic force throwing the peices apart with a massive shockwave eminating outwards link attached the discharge of energy causing it to break apart and the shock wave clearly has kinetic, so how come the shockwave is non destructive, without any basis this makes no sense. [/quote]
So if you've seen the videos you'd know that the effect is completely different from the supernova of the Alpha Relay, and that there's no reason to believe that the explosion had any more than a very local effect. It's like comparing a hand grenade to a nuke.
Yes and again the question still remains why, the release of energy from an overload should be larger, a 'clarification' issue again I feel, how did the energy get turned into a realitivly benign wave front? although I'd still say it may be a grenade next to a nuke, but that shock wave is going to cause serious problems for any shipping it connects with. Kineic barriers or not
[quote]
True, although no refueling vessels are details there existance is reasonable, but large fleet manuve would be high risk without the relays, as I've stated above extensive recon would need to be done to make sure the fleet could more and not all die, you can mine and process Helium 3 as you go, but without pre mapped systems to move to you'd need ships to ensure that you are going somewhere you can do this and discharge the cores, this unfortunately would be the job of light frigates as they have the smallest crew to loose, limiting travel range in any one hop to the distance they can scout[/quote]
Perhaps, but you could move in a "scouting fleet" pattern, with several large fueling and support vessels that stay in one system, mining and harvesting, then dozens of small ships that hop a couple systems out and back, refuel, and repeat. When they have a lead, they follow it. I could definitely see recon ships hopping to a new system and back, but I don't see them blindly hopping off weeks ahead of the bulk of the fleet. If, by some chance, they did hit a "dead end," they could always just turn around and go home, but it'd be worth the attempt.
I didn't type weeks ahead, I was more envisioning the 60 hour range limit, which would once you get 2 or 3 months travel out be pretty much into unexplored space, few days to fully explore and catagorise a system then back to the fleet.
Still, I think with ME-level tech they could be much more efficient at long range stellar mapping, and would know the planetary breakdown and even resource composition of worlds hundreds, maybe even thousands of light years away before they even got there. They wouldn't harvest a world thousands of light years from the nearest relay before because it wouldn't be worth the time and effort, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be aware of them.
They possibly do, or did pre-Reaper, but short of the information stored in ships, how much of that info would be retreiveable is limited, The comm Bouys are gone, you've got the stuff in the ships data banks and whatever computers survived the Reapers onslaught and given they target Reserch facilites and Industrial centers, they will of taken as serious toll on the data
[quote]Not every gas giant in ME universe has helium 3, hydrogen is a lot easier to find, although a massive tanker full of hydrogen would be extremely dangerous if anything went wrong.
It's actually not that big a deal in space. No oxygen.
Yes because a massive expanding ball of super heated plasma isn't going to be a hazard to anyone in the fleet
[quote]
As for not rebuilding the relays being a leap, the relays may have salvagable parts but only in systems with enough ships to do a grid search, you'd need communication on the other end to co-oridinate the construction of the other side, the bulk of the science and industry necessary to build 4 KM long galactic sling shots has been trashed by the Reapers. Relay tech was used, but barely understood, like the citadel they were easy to operate but not understand, the Prothean Relay monument would give a lot of valuable pointers on Earth (assuming it survived the Citadel destruction, not a huge leap) but you still need to pass that data on to the other end, get the parts salvaged and rebuild something that massive, easy for a citadel race at its prime, far less so for a crippled species with destroyed infastructure and a starving populace. [/quote]
I would assume every capital world would have a quantum communicator, but it could possibly take decades to get a working relay system together, and decades more to expand it out to the further reaches of the galaxy like Illium and Omega.
Assuming every Capital world had a quantum communicator, it survived along with its linked partnered the other end is a bit of an assumption. And each one still only lets you talk to one other point, getting the one in Sol working again is porbably the easiest given the Relay monument may well give you the software clues. Plus unfortunately in the Charon Relay case, it was a Primary Relay linked to Arcturus with all the infastructure an alliance Station there destroyed, your going to need to send a fleet there to build the partner end. Thats going to add a decade or two to construction time, just getting there and back, not to mention sorting its peices out from the other 3 Relays in system
[quote]How exactly are they going to plot around black holes while traveling? /quote]
By going around them. It's really not that hard.
Black Holes, lets be fair are a massive hazard to navigation, espcially since they are hard to spot, given ships use light based sensors, admittedly they do give of detecable themal emissions, but they are still a big risk esp at FTL, where you in effect are blind, you could be in one before you know whats happened and that is not something you are getting a return trip on. And given they can Have a massive area of effect, that trip round could be a serious detour
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]
The Quarians were PREPARED to survive those 300 years. Now, their fleet is largely damaged and they need to travel all the way back to Rannoch on limited supplies with damaged ships, wounded soldiers, etc. [/quote]
They don't have to leave immediately. They can take the team to gear-up, and there are plenty of spare parts littering the Sol system.
You mean the spare parts from the blasted, destroyed ships which were shot up by Reaper Beams and then hit by bits of exploding Citadel (assuming you didn't pic control) yes I'm sure there will be some salvage, but how compatable and how operable is a very debatable point
[quote]
You guys want to tell me that our feable sensors can discover a star system two thousand light years away, but miss one in between the star systems 40 and 60 light years away? [/quote]
Yes. It's an imperfect science and it works best for certain types of planets. Based on what I've seen, I'd wager that the ones we've discovered very far away had just the right types of stars and the right types of planets to show up using our existing methods (which mostly depend on VERY large planets that whip relatively smaller suns around). If there were an exact duplicate of the Sol system that was a couple hundred lightyears away, we might not be able to detect any planets from it, and even if we did, we might only pick up Jupiter.
Yes true but recon ships will still need to check out the sytems individually, and report back to ensure the viability not so much in the near by systems but the further you go from infrastructure the more into the blindly into the dark you'll be going
[quote]
B: You have to get to point A to point B before you can create a new relay at point B. Can't use Com bouy's to tell point B to build relay B because there long range coms were tied to the relays (iirc, need to check codex).[/quote]
Except that there are quantum entanglement communicators fo that. And also the Extranet relays are likely still functional.
The Quantum entanglement communicators are high tech expensive and produced under controlled conditions in labs the Reapers flatened... The Extranet relied on the Comm Bouy's destroyed by the Reapers of damaged/ Destroyed by the exploding relays they were near... plus they depended on laser links to the next, isolated pockets may be functioning, but the Extranet as a hole will need the infastructure to be rebuild, n given they are expensive that aint happening soon
[quote]C: After reducing mass, ships use convential thrusters. H2 LOX, Kerosine LOX, metallic H2, whatever. You run into the same problems there we do in todays world. That is, they would have to spend years making ships just to carry all the fuel they need to get to point A to point B. Most of your fuel would be used to....you guessed it-move the fuel from point A to point B.[/quote]
To a point, but they can also harvest fuel along the way.
Also to a point, the majority of stars in the galaxy are M class 76% in the local neighbourhood, are statistically unlikely to have the gas giants you'd need to collect Helium 3 or Hydrogen so a fair amount of route planning, recon and back tracking would be necessary especially on those first few flights into the dark
[quote]
The end of galaxtic civilisation, trade and commerce as we know it, no more istantaneous communication apart from a few quantum entanglement communicatiors aand those are point to point. Plus with there industrail Bases destroyed, attacked worlds will be almost in a dark age level of technology and production without the support of worlds and colonies who were not attacked it could be decades if not centuries for any meaningful recovery.[/quote]
It'd be a set-back, but I see it more like post-war Europe than the dark ages, a few years, definitely, perhaps even decades, but even if they don't rebuild the relays galactic civilization would rebuild itself fairly quickly.
A low tech society can re-build itself quickly, the higher tech, the more infastruture the longer it takes, Post war Europe didn't recover for decades, rationing in Britian didn't end till the 1950's and the last Bomb site in London wasn't cleared till the 2000's. The whole of earth was burning, the smoke clouds alone would have a devestating effect let alone the mega tonnes of unexploded war ordance. The devestation would take centuries to rebuild fully and decades before anything even vaugely resembling normality reassureted itself.
Technology levels would depend very much on where you were and amount of Reaper action on your world, some would be reasonable functional, others stone age. Paradoxically Earth may recover faster simply because of the amount of military assets in system, but even those who retain space flight are likely to form mini coalitions and clusters of trade based in areas of 2-3 months travel, any further would be impractical for shiping.
[quote]
You still have to go inside the Reaper to get to the engine core and that didn't workout so well for Cerbus scientists on the derelict one or the Batarians who found and studied the crashed one. [/quote]
Bah, I'm not even going to entertain this "point" anymore. The Reapers are out of the picture, indoctrination is out of the picture, it's a non-issue.
I see you cut out the second part of my statment, they are out of the picture, but the effects of Indoctronation seem to continue after a Reapers death, I went on to postulate that its effects would be unknown without a directing intelligence possibly continuing a pre-programmed behaviour or simply reducing the over all subjects intellignce level. But to say a process which has been seen to continue after Reaper Death, especially where that death was 37 million years ago (if I'm remembering the rift valley age correctly) will need 'clarification'
[quote]Erm kind of, Stargate used hyperspace travel as opposed to conventianl FTL (warp) from Star Trek and the wormhole from DS9 is more akin to the jumpgate from B5 since those series did a fair amount of ripping each other off. The point is the Relays are the basis of the technology all of it, they are iconic to the franchise, without them, it is a bit like Star Trek with Turians[/quote]
I very much disagree, but you're entitled to be wrong.
How am I wrong, you've been rather specific in your other points... The Mass Effect, the basis of all technology in the franchise all of which is derived from the technology of the relays is pretty central, to the mythology, say Babylon 5 you think jump gates, say Farscape you think Moya, say Stargate... well thats pretty obvious... Mass Effect, Relays.
[quote]
Supplies from where? I suppose the Turians could lend them a few spares if they didn't have a mammoth journey of their own, or the Alliance Navy could since they don't have a planet to rebuild... Besides its likley with the Colonisation of Rannoh underway they had a lot of essential supplies down on the planet, along with non-combatants and food supplies etc yes they can do salvage and all that but its a long journey and chances of having enough to make the whole route, doubtful [/quote]
Post-Sword the Sol System is the galaxy's new gold mine. It's chock full of the detritus of the largest fleet in modern history. After the final battle, my guess would be that only maybe 10-25% of the ships you sent in came out of it in working condition, 50% at the absolute outside, which means that most of them are in bits orbiting Earth. There are plenty of spare parts, rations, fuel, etc. lying around for the taking.
See my earlier post about the possibilites of good salvage from ships destroyed by Reaper blast, especially those which took reactor hits. Fuel, assuming it didn't burn or explode when hit by Reaper fire Fine. Spares, questionable condition at best and Rations, well if you want to eat a MRE thats been exposed to hard vacuum, solar radation, Element Zero and breached reactors, be my guest.
Plus this salvage op. would be incredibly dangerous, I mean unexploded disruptor torpedos from various fighters and underslung cruiser mounts, debries breaching suits, leaking radation from reactors. Would make the supplies last longer though, lot of the salvage techs wouldn't be coming back.
[quote]
Well, given what earth looked like post Reaper invasion, isn't much going to be growing there anytime soon, that sort of wide spread smoke would darken the atmosphere and probably lower global tempretures for years to come, possibly decades, so agriculture to support the still likely Billions of surviours would be problmatic at best. [/quote]
It's really hard to judge the state of Earth at the end, but even if the skies are blackened, they could use alternate farming methods like greenhouse/hydroponic methods, even vat-production. We also don't know how advanced their environmental clean-up capabilities are. I mean, I imagine they terraform worlds from time to time, and with anti-gravity technology they might have some good options for clearing atmo. The Salarians built that spire on Tuchanka, right? An environmental catastrophe that might take the 21st century decades to get over might be cleared wihtin weeks using ME tech.
All your points are true, assuming that a Reaper invasion targeting population and industrial centers hadn't just occured, the infastructure for high tech farming methods just wouldn't be there, the rubble alone would take decades to clear. The Reapers targeted technology, high tech methods for the forseeable are out of the question on a large scale, as is any serious scale enviormental clean up. The fleet resources in system could help with both, hence my earlier comment about earth likely to recover faster than most, but still, decades to centuries.
[quote]
Yes I have seen the ending cinimatics, the horror of them are burned onto my mind. The Relay actually starts to break apart as it fires, producing an explosion with significant kinetic force throwing the peices apart with a massive shockwave eminating outwards link attached the discharge of energy causing it to break apart and the shock wave clearly has kinetic, so how come the shockwave is non destructive, without any basis this makes no sense. [/quote]
So if you've seen the videos you'd know that the effect is completely different from the supernova of the Alpha Relay, and that there's no reason to believe that the explosion had any more than a very local effect. It's like comparing a hand grenade to a nuke.
Yes and again the question still remains why, the release of energy from an overload should be larger, a 'clarification' issue again I feel, how did the energy get turned into a realitivly benign wave front? although I'd still say it may be a grenade next to a nuke, but that shock wave is going to cause serious problems for any shipping it connects with. Kineic barriers or not
[quote]
True, although no refueling vessels are details there existance is reasonable, but large fleet manuve would be high risk without the relays, as I've stated above extensive recon would need to be done to make sure the fleet could more and not all die, you can mine and process Helium 3 as you go, but without pre mapped systems to move to you'd need ships to ensure that you are going somewhere you can do this and discharge the cores, this unfortunately would be the job of light frigates as they have the smallest crew to loose, limiting travel range in any one hop to the distance they can scout[/quote]
Perhaps, but you could move in a "scouting fleet" pattern, with several large fueling and support vessels that stay in one system, mining and harvesting, then dozens of small ships that hop a couple systems out and back, refuel, and repeat. When they have a lead, they follow it. I could definitely see recon ships hopping to a new system and back, but I don't see them blindly hopping off weeks ahead of the bulk of the fleet. If, by some chance, they did hit a "dead end," they could always just turn around and go home, but it'd be worth the attempt.
I didn't type weeks ahead, I was more envisioning the 60 hour range limit, which would once you get 2 or 3 months travel out be pretty much into unexplored space, few days to fully explore and catagorise a system then back to the fleet.
Still, I think with ME-level tech they could be much more efficient at long range stellar mapping, and would know the planetary breakdown and even resource composition of worlds hundreds, maybe even thousands of light years away before they even got there. They wouldn't harvest a world thousands of light years from the nearest relay before because it wouldn't be worth the time and effort, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be aware of them.
They possibly do, or did pre-Reaper, but short of the information stored in ships, how much of that info would be retreiveable is limited, The comm Bouys are gone, you've got the stuff in the ships data banks and whatever computers survived the Reapers onslaught and given they target Reserch facilites and Industrial centers, they will of taken as serious toll on the data
[quote]Not every gas giant in ME universe has helium 3, hydrogen is a lot easier to find, although a massive tanker full of hydrogen would be extremely dangerous if anything went wrong.
It's actually not that big a deal in space. No oxygen.
Yes because a massive expanding ball of super heated plasma isn't going to be a hazard to anyone in the fleet
[quote]
As for not rebuilding the relays being a leap, the relays may have salvagable parts but only in systems with enough ships to do a grid search, you'd need communication on the other end to co-oridinate the construction of the other side, the bulk of the science and industry necessary to build 4 KM long galactic sling shots has been trashed by the Reapers. Relay tech was used, but barely understood, like the citadel they were easy to operate but not understand, the Prothean Relay monument would give a lot of valuable pointers on Earth (assuming it survived the Citadel destruction, not a huge leap) but you still need to pass that data on to the other end, get the parts salvaged and rebuild something that massive, easy for a citadel race at its prime, far less so for a crippled species with destroyed infastructure and a starving populace. [/quote]
I would assume every capital world would have a quantum communicator, but it could possibly take decades to get a working relay system together, and decades more to expand it out to the further reaches of the galaxy like Illium and Omega.
Assuming every Capital world had a quantum communicator, it survived along with its linked partnered the other end is a bit of an assumption. And each one still only lets you talk to one other point, getting the one in Sol working again is porbably the easiest given the Relay monument may well give you the software clues. Plus unfortunately in the Charon Relay case, it was a Primary Relay linked to Arcturus with all the infastructure an alliance Station there destroyed, your going to need to send a fleet there to build the partner end. Thats going to add a decade or two to construction time, just getting there and back, not to mention sorting its peices out from the other 3 Relays in system
[quote]How exactly are they going to plot around black holes while traveling? /quote]
By going around them. It's really not that hard.
Black Holes, lets be fair are a massive hazard to navigation, espcially since they are hard to spot, given ships use light based sensors, admittedly they do give of detecable themal emissions, but they are still a big risk esp at FTL, where you in effect are blind, you could be in one before you know whats happened and that is not something you are getting a return trip on. And given they can Have a massive area of effect, that trip round could be a serious detour
[/quote]
[/quote]
Modifié par maddlarkin, 10 avril 2012 - 02:08 .
#403
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 02:15
Darknessfalls23
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Did you forget that Krogans don't have ship and have entire armory of male warriors and if you let Wrex died in ME1 it was implied as soon as the battle was over Weave will conquer earth., Wasn't 12 lightyears per day, the Normandy speed? which was the faster ship in the fleet... I doubt there is anyway the Quairans ships can go that fast. The Turians probably didn't bring enough food supplies, and they can't eat human food.
#404
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 02:24
Cobra's_back
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The mass effect book Ascension stated the the Quarians grew their own food in the ships.
#405
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 02:26
Cobra's_back
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Darknessfalls23 wrote...
Did you forget that Krogans don't have ship and have entire armory of male warriors and if you let Wrex died in ME1 it was implied as soon as the battle was over Weave will conquer earth., Wasn't 12 lightyears per day, the Normandy speed? which was the faster ship in the fleet... I doubt there is anyway the Quairans ships can go that fast. The Turians probably didn't bring enough food supplies, and they can't eat human food.
Yes , they did not put much thought in this ending.
#406
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 02:48
MyChemicalBromance
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12[ly] was the speed of a cruiser Ash was on long before Mass Effect 1.Darknessfalls23 wrote...
Did you forget that Krogans don't have ship and have entire armory of male warriors and if you let Wrex died in ME1 it was implied as soon as the battle was over Weave will conquer earth., Wasn't 12 lightyears per day, the Normandy speed? which was the faster ship in the fleet... I doubt there is anyway the Quairans ships can go that fast. The Turians probably didn't bring enough food supplies, and they can't eat human food.
The ME3 codex entry on Reapers say they move twice as fast as the Council ships, and then gives the speed as 30[ly/day]. From this we could extrapolate that many of the ships in Sol can now move 15[ly/day].
Contrary to what you seem to believe, I didn't write all that stuff in the OP just to make my hands hurt.
#407
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 02:54
maddlarkin
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ghostbusters101 wrote...
The mass effect book Ascension stated the the Quarians grew their own food in the ships.
Yep the Liveships... they were present in the battle but stated to be Dreadnaught armed but without the armour, making them a prime Reaper target, even if they did survive you'd think a lot of the hydroponics equipment an farming supplies would be back on Rannoh with the colonists since who would bring non combatants into the largest battle in galactic history
#408
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 03:06
MyChemicalBromance
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I'm always amazed when people who claim Mass Effect is about optimism and doing the impossible decide that intragalactic civilization is doomed because it will forget how to eat.maddlarkin wrote...
ghostbusters101 wrote...
The mass effect book Ascension stated the the Quarians grew their own food in the ships.
Yep the Liveships... they were present in the battle but stated to be Dreadnaught armed but without the armour, making them a prime Reaper target, even if they did survive you'd think a lot of the hydroponics equipment an farming supplies would be back on Rannoh with the colonists since who would bring non combatants into the largest battle in galactic history
#409
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 03:17
A0170
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I'm glad you posted this OP. I always figured that, while it may take some time to adjust, the galaxy would be able to overcome the loss of the relays just like they overcame the Reapers. And with Week's numbers, its looks like it'll take sooner than I thought.
#410
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 03:28
liquiddemon
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Like legion said in me2
Technology is not a straight line and there are many ways to reach a technology.
It makes sense the relays had to go. Reaper technology directing civilizations in a certain direction.
Now that they are gone we can follow our own technological path. The cycle is broken and the future is bright. I believe that will be made clear in extended cut
Technology is not a straight line and there are many ways to reach a technology.
It makes sense the relays had to go. Reaper technology directing civilizations in a certain direction.
Now that they are gone we can follow our own technological path. The cycle is broken and the future is bright. I believe that will be made clear in extended cut
#411
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 04:07
OhoniX
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[quote]
You
mean the spare parts from the blasted, destroyed ships which were shot
up by Reaper Beams and then hit by bits of exploding Citadel (assuming
you didn't pic control) yes I'm sure there will be some salvage, but how
compatable and how operable is a very debatable point[/quote]
Space is big. The battle covered a huge sphere around Earth, most of which would be untouched by the Crucible exploding, and Reaper beams are fairly surgical, they likely left a lot fo good bits around where the beam hit in many cases. I'm not saying there would be a lot of fixer-uppers in that battlefield, but there would be plenty of individual salvagable components. I seem to remember reading a planetary data entry that was all about how it was the site of some ancient battle that was still being mined for useful bits, and even the Normandy frequently picked up useful materials and fuel from derelict ships.
[quote]
Yes
true but recon ships will still need to check out the sytems
individually, and report back to ensure the viability not so much in
the near by systems but the further you go from infrastructure the more
into the blindly into the dark you'll be going[/quote]
Sure, but it's a fairly simple process. The scout ships move up to about half their max range, scout, return. The fleet advances to the nearest positively scouted system, repeat. Given that they can rule out some systems and get a pretty good idea of what to expect from others using long range telemetry, they shouldn't be making too many trips that turn work out.
[quote]
The
Quantum entanglement communicators are high tech expensive and produced
under controlled conditions in labs the Reapers flatened... The Extranet
relied on the Comm Bouy's destroyed by the Reapers of damaged/
Destroyed by the exploding relays they were near... plus they depended
on laser links to the next, isolated pockets may be functioning, but the
Extranet as a hole will need the infastructure to be rebuild, n given
they are expensive that aint happening soon[/quote]
Maybe they'll never have extranet again, maybe it'll take decades, but so what? The world got by just fine without the Internet for thousands of years. People back during the age of sail would have killed to have Quantum communication links between London, Peking, Paris, and Boston.
[quote]
Also
to a point, the majority of stars in the galaxy are M class 76% in the
local neighbourhood, are statistically unlikely to have the gas giants
you'd need to collect Helium 3 or Hydrogen so a fair amount of route
planning, recon and back tracking would be necessary especially on those
first few flights into the dark[/quote]
Again though, you seem to be assuming a lot of blind trips, when in practice in most cases they'd have a pretty good idea of what to expect when they got there.
[quote]
A
low tech society can re-build itself quickly, the higher tech, the more
infastruture the longer it takes, Post war Europe didn't recover for
decades, rationing in Britian didn't end till the 1950's and the last
Bomb site in London wasn't cleared till the 2000's. The whole of earth
was burning, the smoke clouds alone would have a devestating effect let
alone the mega tonnes of unexploded war ordance. The devestation would
take centuries to rebuild fully and decades before anything even vaugely
resembling normality reassureted itself.
[/quote]
Yeah, fair enough, it could take a while to get back up to 100%, if ever, but there's a big gap between that and the stone age. 1946 Londoners weren't scraping away in the dirt (for the most part). Earth would probably be a mess for some time to come, sure, but what I'm talking about it setting up the basic necessities to live a comfortable life. I'm imagining people running shops, doing the same sort of jobs they had before the war, plenty of food for everyone to eat, luxury goods, etc. I'm also imagining culture and communication between the various planets out there, and even deliberate immigration from place to place. Again, it would be a futuristic society based more on the political model of the Age of Sail than on the Internet Age, but it would still be a vibrant and functional culture.
[quote]
How
am I wrong, you've been rather specific in your other points... The Mass
Effect, the basis of all technology in the franchise all of which is
derived from the technology of the relays is pretty central, to the
mythology, say Babylon 5 you think jump gates, say Farscape you think
Moya, say Stargate... well thats pretty obvious... Mass Effect, Relays. [/quote]
The Mass Effect is still in play, just one application of it is not, for the moment. There are still numerous technological and practical distinctions between Mass Effect and other sci-fi series.
[quote]All
your points are true, assuming that a Reaper invasion targeting
population and industrial centers hadn't just occured, the infastructure
for high tech farming methods just wouldn't be there, the rubble alone
would take decades to clear. The Reapers targeted technology, high tech
methods for the forseeable are out of the question on a large scale, as
is any serious scale enviormental clean up. The fleet resources in
system could help with both, hence my earlier comment about earth likely
to recover faster than most, but still, decades to centuries.[/quote]
Clearing it ALL? Sure, the work of centuries. Clearing out a livable space? Not a big problem. Remember again that they would not need to support anywhere near the population that they were supporting prior to the war. Sadly the Earth's population is probably less than 1% of what it once was (and that's including the fleet in orbit), but that does make them easier to maintain. If I were in charge of the whole thing, I would consolodate. I would pick a single area that seemed most viable, the lest ruined, closest to salavagable farmland, etc., and I would evac every civilian to that one area, rather than trying to build up thousands of cities at once. I would make that area viable, and then spread outwards from there, retaking the planet as needs dictate. It could be a new golden age for Earth, freed from the ravages of overpopulation.
[quote]Yes and again the question still remains why, the release of energy from an overload should be larger,[/quote]
As I said, it was because all the energy was gone by the time it shut down. It was needed to propogate the "RGB" carrier waves across the entire galaxy at light speed. It's like anti-matter, you store it inside a magnetic bubble, maintained by a device, because if it came in contact with matter it would explode. If you hit the device with a rock the device breaks, the field drops, and the anti-matter blows up big. If, on the other hand, you send a signal to the device to shunt all the anti-matter out in a controlled and anticipated manner, and then the device breaks down from the strain on it's system, there's no boom, because the anti-matter is already gone.
[quote]
Yes because a massive expanding ball of super heated plasma isn't going to be a hazard to anyone in the fleet [/quote]
I don't believe pure hydrogen is combustible in a vacuum. It requires oxygen to burn. Keep the two seperate and at worst you'd just lose some fuel.
[quote]Assuming
every Capital world had a quantum communicator, it survived along with
its linked partnered the other end is a bit of an assumption. [/quote]
I would assume that if each capital did have one, it would be able to communicate with their military flagships, where were all in the Sol system.
As for the relays, I doubt they would network them exactly like the Reapers did, I would expect more direct relays from place to place.
[quote]
Black Holes, lets
be fair are a massive hazard to navigation, espcially since they are
hard to spot, given ships use light based sensors, admittedly they do
give of detecable themal emissions, but they are still a big risk esp at
FTL, where you in effect are blind, you could be in one before you know
whats happened and that is not something you are getting a return trip
on. And given they can Have a massive area of effect, that trip round
could be a serious detour[/quote]
Black holes are typically observable by the effect they have on the matter around them, and are probably well known along the navigation routes.
You
mean the spare parts from the blasted, destroyed ships which were shot
up by Reaper Beams and then hit by bits of exploding Citadel (assuming
you didn't pic control) yes I'm sure there will be some salvage, but how
compatable and how operable is a very debatable point[/quote]
Space is big. The battle covered a huge sphere around Earth, most of which would be untouched by the Crucible exploding, and Reaper beams are fairly surgical, they likely left a lot fo good bits around where the beam hit in many cases. I'm not saying there would be a lot of fixer-uppers in that battlefield, but there would be plenty of individual salvagable components. I seem to remember reading a planetary data entry that was all about how it was the site of some ancient battle that was still being mined for useful bits, and even the Normandy frequently picked up useful materials and fuel from derelict ships.
[quote]
Yes
true but recon ships will still need to check out the sytems
individually, and report back to ensure the viability not so much in
the near by systems but the further you go from infrastructure the more
into the blindly into the dark you'll be going[/quote]
Sure, but it's a fairly simple process. The scout ships move up to about half their max range, scout, return. The fleet advances to the nearest positively scouted system, repeat. Given that they can rule out some systems and get a pretty good idea of what to expect from others using long range telemetry, they shouldn't be making too many trips that turn work out.
[quote]
The
Quantum entanglement communicators are high tech expensive and produced
under controlled conditions in labs the Reapers flatened... The Extranet
relied on the Comm Bouy's destroyed by the Reapers of damaged/
Destroyed by the exploding relays they were near... plus they depended
on laser links to the next, isolated pockets may be functioning, but the
Extranet as a hole will need the infastructure to be rebuild, n given
they are expensive that aint happening soon[/quote]
Maybe they'll never have extranet again, maybe it'll take decades, but so what? The world got by just fine without the Internet for thousands of years. People back during the age of sail would have killed to have Quantum communication links between London, Peking, Paris, and Boston.
[quote]
Also
to a point, the majority of stars in the galaxy are M class 76% in the
local neighbourhood, are statistically unlikely to have the gas giants
you'd need to collect Helium 3 or Hydrogen so a fair amount of route
planning, recon and back tracking would be necessary especially on those
first few flights into the dark[/quote]
Again though, you seem to be assuming a lot of blind trips, when in practice in most cases they'd have a pretty good idea of what to expect when they got there.
[quote]
A
low tech society can re-build itself quickly, the higher tech, the more
infastruture the longer it takes, Post war Europe didn't recover for
decades, rationing in Britian didn't end till the 1950's and the last
Bomb site in London wasn't cleared till the 2000's. The whole of earth
was burning, the smoke clouds alone would have a devestating effect let
alone the mega tonnes of unexploded war ordance. The devestation would
take centuries to rebuild fully and decades before anything even vaugely
resembling normality reassureted itself.
[/quote]
Yeah, fair enough, it could take a while to get back up to 100%, if ever, but there's a big gap between that and the stone age. 1946 Londoners weren't scraping away in the dirt (for the most part). Earth would probably be a mess for some time to come, sure, but what I'm talking about it setting up the basic necessities to live a comfortable life. I'm imagining people running shops, doing the same sort of jobs they had before the war, plenty of food for everyone to eat, luxury goods, etc. I'm also imagining culture and communication between the various planets out there, and even deliberate immigration from place to place. Again, it would be a futuristic society based more on the political model of the Age of Sail than on the Internet Age, but it would still be a vibrant and functional culture.
[quote]
How
am I wrong, you've been rather specific in your other points... The Mass
Effect, the basis of all technology in the franchise all of which is
derived from the technology of the relays is pretty central, to the
mythology, say Babylon 5 you think jump gates, say Farscape you think
Moya, say Stargate... well thats pretty obvious... Mass Effect, Relays. [/quote]
The Mass Effect is still in play, just one application of it is not, for the moment. There are still numerous technological and practical distinctions between Mass Effect and other sci-fi series.
[quote]All
your points are true, assuming that a Reaper invasion targeting
population and industrial centers hadn't just occured, the infastructure
for high tech farming methods just wouldn't be there, the rubble alone
would take decades to clear. The Reapers targeted technology, high tech
methods for the forseeable are out of the question on a large scale, as
is any serious scale enviormental clean up. The fleet resources in
system could help with both, hence my earlier comment about earth likely
to recover faster than most, but still, decades to centuries.[/quote]
Clearing it ALL? Sure, the work of centuries. Clearing out a livable space? Not a big problem. Remember again that they would not need to support anywhere near the population that they were supporting prior to the war. Sadly the Earth's population is probably less than 1% of what it once was (and that's including the fleet in orbit), but that does make them easier to maintain. If I were in charge of the whole thing, I would consolodate. I would pick a single area that seemed most viable, the lest ruined, closest to salavagable farmland, etc., and I would evac every civilian to that one area, rather than trying to build up thousands of cities at once. I would make that area viable, and then spread outwards from there, retaking the planet as needs dictate. It could be a new golden age for Earth, freed from the ravages of overpopulation.
[quote]Yes and again the question still remains why, the release of energy from an overload should be larger,[/quote]
As I said, it was because all the energy was gone by the time it shut down. It was needed to propogate the "RGB" carrier waves across the entire galaxy at light speed. It's like anti-matter, you store it inside a magnetic bubble, maintained by a device, because if it came in contact with matter it would explode. If you hit the device with a rock the device breaks, the field drops, and the anti-matter blows up big. If, on the other hand, you send a signal to the device to shunt all the anti-matter out in a controlled and anticipated manner, and then the device breaks down from the strain on it's system, there's no boom, because the anti-matter is already gone.
[quote]
Yes because a massive expanding ball of super heated plasma isn't going to be a hazard to anyone in the fleet [/quote]
I don't believe pure hydrogen is combustible in a vacuum. It requires oxygen to burn. Keep the two seperate and at worst you'd just lose some fuel.
[quote]Assuming
every Capital world had a quantum communicator, it survived along with
its linked partnered the other end is a bit of an assumption. [/quote]
I would assume that if each capital did have one, it would be able to communicate with their military flagships, where were all in the Sol system.
As for the relays, I doubt they would network them exactly like the Reapers did, I would expect more direct relays from place to place.
[quote]
Black Holes, lets
be fair are a massive hazard to navigation, espcially since they are
hard to spot, given ships use light based sensors, admittedly they do
give of detecable themal emissions, but they are still a big risk esp at
FTL, where you in effect are blind, you could be in one before you know
whats happened and that is not something you are getting a return trip
on. And given they can Have a massive area of effect, that trip round
could be a serious detour[/quote]
Black holes are typically observable by the effect they have on the matter around them, and are probably well known along the navigation routes.
#412
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 04:43
MyChemicalBromance
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- Members
- 2 020 messages
100% agreement. I would just as soon leave all this alone, and let everyone find out this summer, but part of me is still afraid Bioware will cave in. I guess the fact that they refused even after the outlash should put my fears to rest.liquiddemon wrote...
Like legion said in me2
Technology is not a straight line and there are many ways to reach a technology.
It makes sense the relays had to go. Reaper technology directing civilizations in a certain direction.
Now that they are gone we can follow our own technological path. The cycle is broken and the future is bright. I believe that will be made clear in extended cut
#413
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 08:42
MyChemicalBromance
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- Members
- 2 020 messages
Just read into special relativity. Anyone arguing that galactic travel at 12[ly/day] is too slow for survival is basically saying it's impossible to fly around the world in a supersonic jet. Damn it would be cool if Eezo was real.
#414
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 10:18
maddlarkin
-
- Members
- 69 messages
[quote]OhoniX wrote...
[quote]
You
mean the spare parts from the blasted, destroyed ships which were shot
up by Reaper Beams and then hit by bits of exploding Citadel (assuming
you didn't pic control) yes I'm sure there will be some salvage, but how
compatable and how operable is a very debatable point[/quote]
Space is big. The battle covered a huge sphere around Earth, most of which would be untouched by the Crucible exploding, and Reaper beams are fairly surgical, they likely left a lot fo good bits around where the beam hit in many cases. I'm not saying there would be a lot of fixer-uppers in that battlefield, but there would be plenty of individual salvagable components. I seem to remember reading a planetary data entry that was all about how it was the site of some ancient battle that was still being mined for useful bits, and even the Normandy frequently picked up useful materials and fuel from derelict ships.
Well as I said any salvage operation would be incredibly dangerous, especially as while space is indeed big things floating in it tend to clump towards the nearest source of gravity, here the Earth and Moon going by the battle CGI, Earth would over the next few years aquire a ring system of broken ships becoming steadily denser while bits continue to fall into the atmosphere and burn... Also Micro particles of debries would be flying round like bullets, maybe not much of a threat to a Armoured Capital ship, but a light recovery vessel or shuttle? I'm sure you'd get spares, I'm just not sure the it would be worth the effort/cost ratio, given Reapers advanced targeting capabilities they'd of aimed for critical systems and those are the spare parts you'd really need. Plus the energy beams are realitively surgical, but that would create further problems for the salvagers, as they would be dealing with sheered sharpe edges. Bad news in a space suit.
[quote]
Yes
true but recon ships will still need to check out the sytems
individually, and report back to ensure the viability not so much in
the near by systems but the further you go from infrastructure the more
into the blindly into the dark you'll be going[/quote]
Sure, but it's a fairly simple process. The scout ships move up to about half their max range, scout, return. The fleet advances to the nearest positively scouted system, repeat. Given that they can rule out some systems and get a pretty good idea of what to expect from others using long range telemetry, they shouldn't be making too many trips that turn work out.
To be honest I think we've both been barking up the wrong tree here, I was giving this some thought on the way home, long journeys would be problematic at best navagation gaps, detours, areas scarce of resources, what would make more sense is move to the local systems, establish infrastructure, then scout the next in line, establish infastructure and so on, it would cut down losses and give a viable base for when larger groups of ships did embark on longer journeys, with fueling stations, discharge stations etc established they would be able to move a significant distance before having to fend for themselves, sure journeys of 6 months plus would be risky as hell, but you've cut those risks a fair bit if the fleet can get 2 months out before having to fend for itself
[quote]
The
Quantum entanglement communicators are high tech expensive and produced
under controlled conditions in labs the Reapers flatened... The Extranet
relied on the Comm Bouy's destroyed by the Reapers of damaged/
Destroyed by the exploding relays they were near... plus they depended
on laser links to the next, isolated pockets may be functioning, but the
Extranet as a hole will need the infastructure to be rebuild, n given
they are expensive that aint happening soon[/quote]
Maybe they'll never have extranet again, maybe it'll take decades, but so what? The world got by just fine without the Internet for thousands of years. People back during the age of sail would have killed to have Quantum communication links between London, Peking, Paris, and Boston.
The problem is not so much the Extranet but the data stored in it, with that gone or reduced to local clusters of information it would seriously limit your technological starting base. As an example, System A might have the plans for Mass Effect Drives and Liner Accelarators, but no facilities to manufacture ships left, while system B's ship yard might of survived largely intact but a hit on the computer core wiped most of design specs, if A cannot communicate with B then the infastructure is useless as the knowledge needed to make it work is not accessable.
[quote]
Also
to a point, the majority of stars in the galaxy are M class 76% in the
local neighbourhood, are statistically unlikely to have the gas giants
you'd need to collect Helium 3 or Hydrogen so a fair amount of route
planning, recon and back tracking would be necessary especially on those
first few flights into the dark[/quote]
Again though, you seem to be assuming a lot of blind trips, when in practice in most cases they'd have a pretty good idea of what to expect when they got there.
The further out you go, the more into the unknown these trips are going to be. if you are making short journeys to previously known systems then that fine, but the systems further out you move from the clusters of explored areas the more likely you will hit an impassable region, hostile unknown species, black hole etc. Which is why any long journeys would be off the cards, for a very long time, ships will be difficult to replace, better to stay local, in known areas, only sending lone scouts then establishing the infastructure before pushing further as necessity dictates. Once a local region and worlds sufficently close have some trade and economic interaction. Thinking about going further would be possible, but you still limited by the fact ships are by prupose realitively short range in ME due to the relays so whole new classes would need to be developed more akin to the Quarin liveships... that takes resources which simply would not be avalible in the lucky systems for decades if not centuries
[quote]
A
low tech society can re-build itself quickly, the higher tech, the more
infastruture the longer it takes, Post war Europe didn't recover for
decades, rationing in Britian didn't end till the 1950's and the last
Bomb site in London wasn't cleared till the 2000's. The whole of earth
was burning, the smoke clouds alone would have a devestating effect let
alone the mega tonnes of unexploded war ordance. The devestation would
take centuries to rebuild fully and decades before anything even vaugely
resembling normality reassureted itself.
[/quote]
Yeah, fair enough, it could take a while to get back up to 100%, if ever, but there's a big gap between that and the stone age. 1946 Londoners weren't scraping away in the dirt (for the most part). Earth would probably be a mess for some time to come, sure, but what I'm talking about it setting up the basic necessities to live a comfortable life. I'm imagining people running shops, doing the same sort of jobs they had before the war, plenty of food for everyone to eat, luxury goods, etc. I'm also imagining culture and communication between the various planets out there, and even deliberate immigration from place to place. Again, it would be a futuristic society based more on the political model of the Age of Sail than on the Internet Age, but it would still be a vibrant and functional culture.
Get back to a 100%? It would take decades alone to clear the roads, earth had cities comprised of Arcologies, these sort of buildings matching Reapers in hight would create massive amounts of rubble. Londoners weren't scraping in the dirt because of prefab housing which provided somewhere to live while permant housing was built, this process was going on right through the 1960's and that was with a surviving infastructure and governmental body, both of which would be seriously lacking Post Reaper. People would have roof's over their heads within a decade, but it would be little better than transit camp living for a very long time.
It is a much higher tech society but there in lies the problem. The more sophisticated something is the harder it is to replace, and the complex industries and technical knowledge would be extremely difficult to reproduce and rebuild without access to planets who either had missing knowledge or manufacturing capacities you don't. Paradoxically with the remains of the victory fleet earth is far better off in that regard as they still have a lot of the skill, equipment and information stored in the ships, but rebuilding Thessia could be a much bigger issue as the fleet pulled out
[quote]
How
am I wrong, you've been rather specific in your other points... The Mass
Effect, the basis of all technology in the franchise all of which is
derived from the technology of the relays is pretty central, to the
mythology, say Babylon 5 you think jump gates, say Farscape you think
Moya, say Stargate... well thats pretty obvious... Mass Effect, Relays. [/quote]
The Mass Effect is still in play, just one application of it is not, for the moment. There are still numerous technological and practical distinctions between Mass Effect and other sci-fi series.
The point I was making is more of a symbolic one, the Relays Symbolies the Mass Effect, their image etc without them there is no clear symbol of it... yes the ships still use it, but a futuristic drive core is a futuristic drive core, the Relays as symbols really stood out. You see a futureistic ship it could be any sci-fi, you see it next to a Relay, you know its Mass Effect.
[quote]All
your points are true, assuming that a Reaper invasion targeting
population and industrial centers hadn't just occured, the infastructure
for high tech farming methods just wouldn't be there, the rubble alone
would take decades to clear. The Reapers targeted technology, high tech
methods for the forseeable are out of the question on a large scale, as
is any serious scale enviormental clean up. The fleet resources in
system could help with both, hence my earlier comment about earth likely
to recover faster than most, but still, decades to centuries.[/quote]
Clearing it ALL? Sure, the work of centuries. Clearing out a livable space? Not a big problem. Remember again that they would not need to support anywhere near the population that they were supporting prior to the war. Sadly the Earth's population is probably less than 1% of what it once was (and that's including the fleet in orbit), but that does make them easier to maintain. If I were in charge of the whole thing, I would consolodate. I would pick a single area that seemed most viable, the lest ruined, closest to salavagable farmland, etc., and I would evac every civilian to that one area, rather than trying to build up thousands of cities at once. I would make that area viable, and then spread outwards from there, retaking the planet as needs dictate. It could be a new golden age for Earth, freed from the ravages of overpopulation.
What your talking about is a clear unified effort under a central authority, This just isn't present anymore, the codex states the fates of entire nations on Earth are unknown. In this state Hackett could establish military control and use his troops and ships but this raises problems of its own establishing order and organising limited reconstuction possible But very difficult Which I'll get to.
Not too sure where you got the Less than 1% figure, in game it states earth is lossing 1 million people a day and at that rate would be depopulated in a decade. Your still probably looking at a world wide population in the Billion's mark, although a fair few billion smaller than it was. Leaving the surviving military personnel who likely number in the hundreds of thousands with a serious problem of maintaining order when supplies start getting scarce.
Your still going to need heavy industial equipment and vechiles, engineering teams and kit medical and relief aid, fresh water would be a big problem, power. With the Reapers Focusing on major population centers the country may still have viable areas, but your looking at a few decades of harsh winters and food shortages while you try and organise farming efforts. Expertise or at least accessable expertise also be in short supply. The leading professor of Dark Energy theory may of survived but if he's in a refugee camp and hasn't been identified he's not going to be helping you build any Mass Effect drives any time soon. And without the global access to computers and Extranet, that sort of thing will happen. This would apply to equipment too, there may well be 20 heavy industrial mech's suitable for rubble clearing in a side garage at a Factory, but if every one working there was killed no one will know they are there, and the could remain undiscovered for years.
[quote]Yes and again the question still remains why, the release of energy from an overload should be larger,[/quote]
As I said, it was because all the energy was gone by the time it shut down. It was needed to propogate the "RGB" carrier waves across the entire galaxy at light speed. It's like anti-matter, you store it inside a magnetic bubble, maintained by a device, because if it came in contact with matter it would explode. If you hit the device with a rock the device breaks, the field drops, and the anti-matter blows up big. If, on the other hand, you send a signal to the device to shunt all the anti-matter out in a controlled and anticipated manner, and then the device breaks down from the strain on it's system, there's no boom, because the anti-matter is already gone.
So the RGB energy waves produced by a dark energy explosion are non damaging just cause? That is going to need so explenation. I'll accept that a lot of the energy seemed to be expanded on the Blast to the next Relay but that means the Relays at the end of the chain which can't pass that overload on will go Boom big time, esp is every Relay adds to it.
[quote]
Yes because a massive expanding ball of super heated plasma isn't going to be a hazard to anyone in the fleet [/quote]
I don't believe pure hydrogen is combustible in a vacuum. It requires oxygen to burn. Keep the two seperate and at worst you'd just lose some fuel.
Stars are balls of super heated plasma and they exist in space just fine, The crew of these tanker ships are going to need to breath something so keeping them seperate is problmatic possible but problmatic.
[quote]Assuming
every Capital world had a quantum communicator, it survived along with
its linked partnered the other end is a bit of an assumption. [/quote]
I would assume that if each capital did have one, it would be able to communicate with their military flagships, where were all in the Sol system.
Again assuming that the flag ships in question survived the massive battle and the partnered one at the other end on the Capital world did as well, this is also assuming of course that the ones surviving were in Military use and not commercial. I'm not saying they'd all be destroyed but its a limited system and your chances of even being in contact with anything more than a couple of systems, (who may be to far away to help you) are reasonably slim.
As for the relays, I doubt they would network them exactly like the Reapers did, I would expect more direct relays from place to place.
Its more a question of how the Relay worked here, which I don't know, the parts in Charon Relay are a Primary Relays parts, it could possibly be converted into a secondary, but you'd need a serious understanding of the technology. (The Relay Monument would also be a primary as it connected only to Ilos) Once you got to Arcturus with its Secondary's you'd have a fair chance of working out the differences between the two, but it might not be possible still to convert their purpose.
[quote]
Black Holes, lets
be fair are a massive hazard to navigation, espcially since they are
hard to spot, given ships use light based sensors, admittedly they do
give of detecable themal emissions, but they are still a big risk esp at
FTL, where you in effect are blind, you could be in one before you know
whats happened and that is not something you are getting a return trip
on. And given they can Have a massive area of effect, that trip round
could be a serious detour[/quote]
Black holes are typically observable by the effect they have on the matter around them, and are probably well known along the navigation routes.
The Accretion Disc yes does show them, but once your into unexplored territory you will be dependent on ship sensors, which given its realitive postion to the ship, may be blinded by the Black hoke itsekf. Further more at FTL your Blind, so they are a problem and even if you know where one is, it may force you into a prolonged route due to a cluster of systems near it unsuitable for you shipping needs... They are a navigation hazard pure and simple.
[/quote]
[quote]
You
mean the spare parts from the blasted, destroyed ships which were shot
up by Reaper Beams and then hit by bits of exploding Citadel (assuming
you didn't pic control) yes I'm sure there will be some salvage, but how
compatable and how operable is a very debatable point[/quote]
Space is big. The battle covered a huge sphere around Earth, most of which would be untouched by the Crucible exploding, and Reaper beams are fairly surgical, they likely left a lot fo good bits around where the beam hit in many cases. I'm not saying there would be a lot of fixer-uppers in that battlefield, but there would be plenty of individual salvagable components. I seem to remember reading a planetary data entry that was all about how it was the site of some ancient battle that was still being mined for useful bits, and even the Normandy frequently picked up useful materials and fuel from derelict ships.
Well as I said any salvage operation would be incredibly dangerous, especially as while space is indeed big things floating in it tend to clump towards the nearest source of gravity, here the Earth and Moon going by the battle CGI, Earth would over the next few years aquire a ring system of broken ships becoming steadily denser while bits continue to fall into the atmosphere and burn... Also Micro particles of debries would be flying round like bullets, maybe not much of a threat to a Armoured Capital ship, but a light recovery vessel or shuttle? I'm sure you'd get spares, I'm just not sure the it would be worth the effort/cost ratio, given Reapers advanced targeting capabilities they'd of aimed for critical systems and those are the spare parts you'd really need. Plus the energy beams are realitively surgical, but that would create further problems for the salvagers, as they would be dealing with sheered sharpe edges. Bad news in a space suit.
[quote]
Yes
true but recon ships will still need to check out the sytems
individually, and report back to ensure the viability not so much in
the near by systems but the further you go from infrastructure the more
into the blindly into the dark you'll be going[/quote]
Sure, but it's a fairly simple process. The scout ships move up to about half their max range, scout, return. The fleet advances to the nearest positively scouted system, repeat. Given that they can rule out some systems and get a pretty good idea of what to expect from others using long range telemetry, they shouldn't be making too many trips that turn work out.
To be honest I think we've both been barking up the wrong tree here, I was giving this some thought on the way home, long journeys would be problematic at best navagation gaps, detours, areas scarce of resources, what would make more sense is move to the local systems, establish infrastructure, then scout the next in line, establish infastructure and so on, it would cut down losses and give a viable base for when larger groups of ships did embark on longer journeys, with fueling stations, discharge stations etc established they would be able to move a significant distance before having to fend for themselves, sure journeys of 6 months plus would be risky as hell, but you've cut those risks a fair bit if the fleet can get 2 months out before having to fend for itself
[quote]
The
Quantum entanglement communicators are high tech expensive and produced
under controlled conditions in labs the Reapers flatened... The Extranet
relied on the Comm Bouy's destroyed by the Reapers of damaged/
Destroyed by the exploding relays they were near... plus they depended
on laser links to the next, isolated pockets may be functioning, but the
Extranet as a hole will need the infastructure to be rebuild, n given
they are expensive that aint happening soon[/quote]
Maybe they'll never have extranet again, maybe it'll take decades, but so what? The world got by just fine without the Internet for thousands of years. People back during the age of sail would have killed to have Quantum communication links between London, Peking, Paris, and Boston.
The problem is not so much the Extranet but the data stored in it, with that gone or reduced to local clusters of information it would seriously limit your technological starting base. As an example, System A might have the plans for Mass Effect Drives and Liner Accelarators, but no facilities to manufacture ships left, while system B's ship yard might of survived largely intact but a hit on the computer core wiped most of design specs, if A cannot communicate with B then the infastructure is useless as the knowledge needed to make it work is not accessable.
[quote]
Also
to a point, the majority of stars in the galaxy are M class 76% in the
local neighbourhood, are statistically unlikely to have the gas giants
you'd need to collect Helium 3 or Hydrogen so a fair amount of route
planning, recon and back tracking would be necessary especially on those
first few flights into the dark[/quote]
Again though, you seem to be assuming a lot of blind trips, when in practice in most cases they'd have a pretty good idea of what to expect when they got there.
The further out you go, the more into the unknown these trips are going to be. if you are making short journeys to previously known systems then that fine, but the systems further out you move from the clusters of explored areas the more likely you will hit an impassable region, hostile unknown species, black hole etc. Which is why any long journeys would be off the cards, for a very long time, ships will be difficult to replace, better to stay local, in known areas, only sending lone scouts then establishing the infastructure before pushing further as necessity dictates. Once a local region and worlds sufficently close have some trade and economic interaction. Thinking about going further would be possible, but you still limited by the fact ships are by prupose realitively short range in ME due to the relays so whole new classes would need to be developed more akin to the Quarin liveships... that takes resources which simply would not be avalible in the lucky systems for decades if not centuries
[quote]
A
low tech society can re-build itself quickly, the higher tech, the more
infastruture the longer it takes, Post war Europe didn't recover for
decades, rationing in Britian didn't end till the 1950's and the last
Bomb site in London wasn't cleared till the 2000's. The whole of earth
was burning, the smoke clouds alone would have a devestating effect let
alone the mega tonnes of unexploded war ordance. The devestation would
take centuries to rebuild fully and decades before anything even vaugely
resembling normality reassureted itself.
[/quote]
Yeah, fair enough, it could take a while to get back up to 100%, if ever, but there's a big gap between that and the stone age. 1946 Londoners weren't scraping away in the dirt (for the most part). Earth would probably be a mess for some time to come, sure, but what I'm talking about it setting up the basic necessities to live a comfortable life. I'm imagining people running shops, doing the same sort of jobs they had before the war, plenty of food for everyone to eat, luxury goods, etc. I'm also imagining culture and communication between the various planets out there, and even deliberate immigration from place to place. Again, it would be a futuristic society based more on the political model of the Age of Sail than on the Internet Age, but it would still be a vibrant and functional culture.
Get back to a 100%? It would take decades alone to clear the roads, earth had cities comprised of Arcologies, these sort of buildings matching Reapers in hight would create massive amounts of rubble. Londoners weren't scraping in the dirt because of prefab housing which provided somewhere to live while permant housing was built, this process was going on right through the 1960's and that was with a surviving infastructure and governmental body, both of which would be seriously lacking Post Reaper. People would have roof's over their heads within a decade, but it would be little better than transit camp living for a very long time.
It is a much higher tech society but there in lies the problem. The more sophisticated something is the harder it is to replace, and the complex industries and technical knowledge would be extremely difficult to reproduce and rebuild without access to planets who either had missing knowledge or manufacturing capacities you don't. Paradoxically with the remains of the victory fleet earth is far better off in that regard as they still have a lot of the skill, equipment and information stored in the ships, but rebuilding Thessia could be a much bigger issue as the fleet pulled out
[quote]
How
am I wrong, you've been rather specific in your other points... The Mass
Effect, the basis of all technology in the franchise all of which is
derived from the technology of the relays is pretty central, to the
mythology, say Babylon 5 you think jump gates, say Farscape you think
Moya, say Stargate... well thats pretty obvious... Mass Effect, Relays. [/quote]
The Mass Effect is still in play, just one application of it is not, for the moment. There are still numerous technological and practical distinctions between Mass Effect and other sci-fi series.
The point I was making is more of a symbolic one, the Relays Symbolies the Mass Effect, their image etc without them there is no clear symbol of it... yes the ships still use it, but a futuristic drive core is a futuristic drive core, the Relays as symbols really stood out. You see a futureistic ship it could be any sci-fi, you see it next to a Relay, you know its Mass Effect.
[quote]All
your points are true, assuming that a Reaper invasion targeting
population and industrial centers hadn't just occured, the infastructure
for high tech farming methods just wouldn't be there, the rubble alone
would take decades to clear. The Reapers targeted technology, high tech
methods for the forseeable are out of the question on a large scale, as
is any serious scale enviormental clean up. The fleet resources in
system could help with both, hence my earlier comment about earth likely
to recover faster than most, but still, decades to centuries.[/quote]
Clearing it ALL? Sure, the work of centuries. Clearing out a livable space? Not a big problem. Remember again that they would not need to support anywhere near the population that they were supporting prior to the war. Sadly the Earth's population is probably less than 1% of what it once was (and that's including the fleet in orbit), but that does make them easier to maintain. If I were in charge of the whole thing, I would consolodate. I would pick a single area that seemed most viable, the lest ruined, closest to salavagable farmland, etc., and I would evac every civilian to that one area, rather than trying to build up thousands of cities at once. I would make that area viable, and then spread outwards from there, retaking the planet as needs dictate. It could be a new golden age for Earth, freed from the ravages of overpopulation.
What your talking about is a clear unified effort under a central authority, This just isn't present anymore, the codex states the fates of entire nations on Earth are unknown. In this state Hackett could establish military control and use his troops and ships but this raises problems of its own establishing order and organising limited reconstuction possible But very difficult Which I'll get to.
Not too sure where you got the Less than 1% figure, in game it states earth is lossing 1 million people a day and at that rate would be depopulated in a decade. Your still probably looking at a world wide population in the Billion's mark, although a fair few billion smaller than it was. Leaving the surviving military personnel who likely number in the hundreds of thousands with a serious problem of maintaining order when supplies start getting scarce.
Your still going to need heavy industial equipment and vechiles, engineering teams and kit medical and relief aid, fresh water would be a big problem, power. With the Reapers Focusing on major population centers the country may still have viable areas, but your looking at a few decades of harsh winters and food shortages while you try and organise farming efforts. Expertise or at least accessable expertise also be in short supply. The leading professor of Dark Energy theory may of survived but if he's in a refugee camp and hasn't been identified he's not going to be helping you build any Mass Effect drives any time soon. And without the global access to computers and Extranet, that sort of thing will happen. This would apply to equipment too, there may well be 20 heavy industrial mech's suitable for rubble clearing in a side garage at a Factory, but if every one working there was killed no one will know they are there, and the could remain undiscovered for years.
[quote]Yes and again the question still remains why, the release of energy from an overload should be larger,[/quote]
As I said, it was because all the energy was gone by the time it shut down. It was needed to propogate the "RGB" carrier waves across the entire galaxy at light speed. It's like anti-matter, you store it inside a magnetic bubble, maintained by a device, because if it came in contact with matter it would explode. If you hit the device with a rock the device breaks, the field drops, and the anti-matter blows up big. If, on the other hand, you send a signal to the device to shunt all the anti-matter out in a controlled and anticipated manner, and then the device breaks down from the strain on it's system, there's no boom, because the anti-matter is already gone.
So the RGB energy waves produced by a dark energy explosion are non damaging just cause? That is going to need so explenation. I'll accept that a lot of the energy seemed to be expanded on the Blast to the next Relay but that means the Relays at the end of the chain which can't pass that overload on will go Boom big time, esp is every Relay adds to it.
[quote]
Yes because a massive expanding ball of super heated plasma isn't going to be a hazard to anyone in the fleet [/quote]
I don't believe pure hydrogen is combustible in a vacuum. It requires oxygen to burn. Keep the two seperate and at worst you'd just lose some fuel.
Stars are balls of super heated plasma and they exist in space just fine, The crew of these tanker ships are going to need to breath something so keeping them seperate is problmatic possible but problmatic.
[quote]Assuming
every Capital world had a quantum communicator, it survived along with
its linked partnered the other end is a bit of an assumption. [/quote]
I would assume that if each capital did have one, it would be able to communicate with their military flagships, where were all in the Sol system.
Again assuming that the flag ships in question survived the massive battle and the partnered one at the other end on the Capital world did as well, this is also assuming of course that the ones surviving were in Military use and not commercial. I'm not saying they'd all be destroyed but its a limited system and your chances of even being in contact with anything more than a couple of systems, (who may be to far away to help you) are reasonably slim.
As for the relays, I doubt they would network them exactly like the Reapers did, I would expect more direct relays from place to place.
Its more a question of how the Relay worked here, which I don't know, the parts in Charon Relay are a Primary Relays parts, it could possibly be converted into a secondary, but you'd need a serious understanding of the technology. (The Relay Monument would also be a primary as it connected only to Ilos) Once you got to Arcturus with its Secondary's you'd have a fair chance of working out the differences between the two, but it might not be possible still to convert their purpose.
[quote]
Black Holes, lets
be fair are a massive hazard to navigation, espcially since they are
hard to spot, given ships use light based sensors, admittedly they do
give of detecable themal emissions, but they are still a big risk esp at
FTL, where you in effect are blind, you could be in one before you know
whats happened and that is not something you are getting a return trip
on. And given they can Have a massive area of effect, that trip round
could be a serious detour[/quote]
Black holes are typically observable by the effect they have on the matter around them, and are probably well known along the navigation routes.
The Accretion Disc yes does show them, but once your into unexplored territory you will be dependent on ship sensors, which given its realitive postion to the ship, may be blinded by the Black hoke itsekf. Further more at FTL your Blind, so they are a problem and even if you know where one is, it may force you into a prolonged route due to a cluster of systems near it unsuitable for you shipping needs... They are a navigation hazard pure and simple.
[/quote]
#415
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 11:01
CapnManx
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MyChemicalBromance wrote...
Just read into special relativity. Anyone arguing that galactic travel at 12[ly/day] is too slow for survival is basically saying it's impossible to fly around the world in a supersonic jet. Damn it would be cool if Eezo was real.
And I have been doing further reading into static electricity and ion thrusters. What was once pure speculation on my part is backed up by physics.
I have cracked the core charge problem!
Static electricity is caused normally (or in other words, by accident) by two non conductive surfaces coming into contact with each other. Electrons pass from one object to the other, then get stuck when the objects are separated. This results in one object having a 'positive' charge (not enough electrons), and the other having a 'negative' charge (too many electrons). Static discharge occurs when equilibrium is restored ('neutral' being the natural state of matter, and the state it generally tries to return to); with surplus electrons jumping to lonely protons via any handy conductive path (if you've ever got a shock off something, that conductive path was probably you).
Core charge skips the 'electron swapping via contact' bit, because it happens on purpose; the core is exposed to a positive charge to increase mass, or a negative charge to decrease it. Since the point of the core is to lower the mass of the ship, the charge used for FTL flight will be negative.
So that's how we end up with the need to discharge the core; it's swimming in surplus electrons, due to the negative charge. It can be assumed that eezo is less than idealy conductive, and that electrons get stuck in or on it.
To neutralise the charge, a ship grounds itself by either making physical contact with a planet, or by interacting with a planet's magnetic field; failure to do so results in the core discharging into the ship's hull.
However, this holds true if the only place it could discharge into is the ship itself. The solution then, is provide an alternative place for the core to discharge. Which brings me to ion thrusters.
There is a particular type, called an 'electrostatic ion thruster', that is particularly relevant; it converts small quantities of fuel (usually xenon gas) into ions, and propells them in a beam out the back of the space craft. These ions all carry a positive charge; creating the risks of charge build up, and of the ions returning to the space craft (thus canceling the thrust). The problem is dealt with by firing a stream of electrons into the ion beam; thus neutralising the charge.
See where I'm going here?
The solution then, is to have electrostatic ion thrusters supplementing whatever other propulsion system the ship uses; and make sure that the paths from the element zero core to the ion beams are more conductive than the paths from the core to the hull. The static in the core will naturally discharge into the ion thrusters; both enabling the thrusters to function, and preventing static build up within the ship.
#416
Posté 10 avril 2012 - 11:24
maddlarkin
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- 69 messages
CapnManx wrote...
MyChemicalBromance wrote...
Just read into special relativity. Anyone arguing that galactic travel at 12[ly/day] is too slow for survival is basically saying it's impossible to fly around the world in a supersonic jet. Damn it would be cool if Eezo was real.
And I have been doing further reading into static electricity and ion thrusters. What was once pure speculation on my part is backed up by physics.
I have cracked the core charge problem!
Static electricity is caused normally (or in other words, by accident) by two non conductive surfaces coming into contact with each other. Electrons pass from one object to the other, then get stuck when the objects are separated. This results in one object having a 'positive' charge (not enough electrons), and the other having a 'negative' charge (too many electrons). Static discharge occurs when equilibrium is restored ('neutral' being the natural state of matter, and the state it generally tries to return to); with surplus electrons jumping to lonely protons via any handy conductive path (if you've ever got a shock off something, that conductive path was probably you).
Core charge skips the 'electron swapping via contact' bit, because it happens on purpose; the core is exposed to a positive charge to increase mass, or a negative charge to decrease it. Since the point of the core is to lower the mass of the ship, the charge used for FTL flight will be negative.
So that's how we end up with the need to discharge the core; it's swimming in surplus electrons, due to the negative charge. It can be assumed that eezo is less than idealy conductive, and that electrons get stuck in or on it.
To neutralise the charge, a ship grounds itself by either making physical contact with a planet, or by interacting with a planet's magnetic field; failure to do so results in the core discharging into the ship's hull.
However, this holds true if the only place it could discharge into is the ship itself. The solution then, is provide an alternative place for the core to discharge. Which brings me to ion thrusters.
There is a particular type, called an 'electrostatic ion thruster', that is particularly relevant; it converts small quantities of fuel (usually xenon gas) into ions, and propells them in a beam out the back of the space craft. These ions all carry a positive charge; creating the risks of charge build up, and of the ions returning to the space craft (thus canceling the thrust). The problem is dealt with by firing a stream of electrons into the ion beam; thus neutralising the charge.
See where I'm going here?
The solution then, is to have electrostatic ion thrusters supplementing whatever other propulsion system the ship uses; and make sure that the paths from the element zero core to the ion beams are more conductive than the paths from the core to the hull. The static in the core will naturally discharge into the ion thrusters; both enabling the thrusters to function, and preventing static build up within the ship.
Thats actually pretty awsome :-) and backed up by physics, the only problems I really see with it is the conductive nature of the materials the ships are built from, it would pose problems for channeling the excess static to where you want it and not somewhere it would pose a threat to the crew, a solvable problem (crew areas in a faraday cage?) the other problem is the Xenon gas being consumed would be required as a second fuel source and need to be stored. Even if its only consuming small amounts that second fuel source would still be dictating range as it would presumabley have to function continously. Still pretty awsome soloution which may give you longer rang and remove one of the barriers to exploration.
#417
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 12:10
CapnManx
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maddlarkin wrote...
Thats actually pretty awsome :-) and backed up by physics, the only problems I really see with it is the conductive nature of the materials the ships are built from, it would pose problems for channeling the excess static to where you want it and not somewhere it would pose a threat to the crew, a solvable problem (crew areas in a faraday cage?) the other problem is the Xenon gas being consumed would be required as a second fuel source and need to be stored. Even if its only consuming small amounts that second fuel source would still be dictating range as it would presumabley have to function continously. Still pretty awsome soloution which may give you longer rang and remove one of the barriers to exploration.
Faraday cage would work; there's also ways to do it with electromagnetic fields (Penning Trap I think it's called). Probably easier to just make sure there's nothing near the core that's more conductive than whatever channel you use to direct it to the engines though; electricity tends to take the path of least resistance (run super-conductive cables between them maybe).
You're right about the resources; if we were to try and rationalise why people weren't doing this before, it'd be easy enough to assume that extra mass, extra power draw, and extra fuel requirements, weren't seen as a cost effective solution; what with relays usually dropping people off near handy planets where they can discharge at no extra cost. Still, ion thrusters are extremely fuel efficient (it's about the only thing they have going for them as a form of propulsion; those things are slow); they are ideally suited for situations where you need continuous thrust for extended periods.
Modifié par CapnManx, 11 avril 2012 - 12:19 .
#418
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 12:14
Joush
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MyChemicalBromance wrote...
NReed106 wrote...
Ahem, what of fuel? Are there random fuel stations everywhere in the uncharted galaxy?
(Quoted from ME1 Codex)Any long-duration interstellar flight consists of two phases: acceleration and deceleration. Starships accelerate to the half-way point of their journey, then flip 180 degrees and apply thrust on the opposite vector, decelerating as they finish the trip. The engines are always operating, and peak speed is attained at the middle of the flight.
This is obviously designed to reach the destination in the fastest time. There is no resistance in space, so fuel is only consumed when trying to travel as fast as possible. "Cruising" speed (12ly per day) would require no fuel.
Not sure if someone brought this up already, but you can't cruse FTL. Every 50 hours or so you have to stop and discharge your drive core. You could acclerate then shut down your mass effect core, but then you are faceing a local speed of light that is.. well, the speed of light. Even at .999999999 C, that means 120,000+ objective years to your destination, and without a mass effect field up you aren't an effectively massless non-event in spacetime, so running into a bit of dust could liberate enough energy to reduce you to radio static.
#419
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 12:32
maddlarkin
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CapnManx wrote...
maddlarkin wrote...
Thats actually pretty awsome :-) and backed up by physics, the only problems I really see with it is the conductive nature of the materials the ships are built from, it would pose problems for channeling the excess static to where you want it and not somewhere it would pose a threat to the crew, a solvable problem (crew areas in a faraday cage?) the other problem is the Xenon gas being consumed would be required as a second fuel source and need to be stored. Even if its only consuming small amounts that second fuel source would still be dictating range as it would presumabley have to function continously. Still pretty awsome soloution which may give you longer rang and remove one of the barriers to exploration.
Faraday cage would work; there's also ways to do it with electromagnetic fields (Penning Trap I think it's called). Probably easier to just make sure there's nothing near the core that's more conductive than whatever channel you use to direct it to the engines though; electricity tends to take the path of least resistance (run super-conductive cables between them maybe).
You're right about the resources; if we were to try and rationalise why people weren't doing this before, it'd be easy enough to assume that extra mass, extra power draw, and extra fuel requirements, weren't seen as a cost effective solution; what with relays usually dropping people off near handy planets where they can discharge at no extra cost. Still, ion thrusters are extremely fuel efficient (it's about the only thing they have going for them as a form of propulsion; those things are slow); they are ideally suited for sutuations where you need continuous thrust for extended periods.
I'd say they'd have to go for multiple safety systems, inc. the Faraday cage, electromagnetic field and limiting the conductive materials around the core etc. Non-Relay flight would be a much more risky endevour if for nothing else it is at far longer range and you will not be finding help in the event of any one system failure.
ME ships due to the Relays are realitively short range vessels with limited supply space and I'd imagine system redudancy. Converting the existing ships could be done, but really you'd need new classes incooparating the technology, with a different design philosphy for ships which need to function independly for months, maybe years, rather than days or weeks.
#420
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 12:49
Aquilas
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The extant organics and synthetics aren't ready to use the relay technology? The Reaper tech?
Say what?
They've been using it for millenia. Yes, they've been traveling down paths laid by the Reapers, but they've been doing so unawares. Now they are aware. And they've been using Reaper tech without becoming indoctrinated on a galactic scale; if they had been, the Reapers could have pulled up some kilometer-sized deck chairs and toasted organics as they marched happily into the slurry tubes.
So let me get this straight: with full awareness and no Reapers to trap them, organics will be trapped by Reaper tech. Sounds as if the Catalyst, otherwise known as Star-jars, has succeeded in indoctrinating every last organic through its rigorous, irrefutable logic.
BioWare is promulgating these ideas in an obvious attempt to "clarify" destroying the relays. "Clarification" needs to be called precisely what it is: rationalization.
Say what?
They've been using it for millenia. Yes, they've been traveling down paths laid by the Reapers, but they've been doing so unawares. Now they are aware. And they've been using Reaper tech without becoming indoctrinated on a galactic scale; if they had been, the Reapers could have pulled up some kilometer-sized deck chairs and toasted organics as they marched happily into the slurry tubes.
So let me get this straight: with full awareness and no Reapers to trap them, organics will be trapped by Reaper tech. Sounds as if the Catalyst, otherwise known as Star-jars, has succeeded in indoctrinating every last organic through its rigorous, irrefutable logic.
BioWare is promulgating these ideas in an obvious attempt to "clarify" destroying the relays. "Clarification" needs to be called precisely what it is: rationalization.
#421
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 12:58
FabricatedWookie
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If anyone can manage being stranded it is the quarian flotilla. However, galactic economics is basically done now.
Modifié par FabricatedWookie, 11 avril 2012 - 12:58 .
#422
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 01:02
SC0TTYD00
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In the mass effect book revelations it says thatthe ships go 50 times the speed of light without the relays. Its in the first or second chapter,
#423
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 01:19
omphaloskepsis
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I think it's the "HItler's sweater" (contagion heuristic) effect. There's no logical reason why reaper technology is inherently bad. Maybe the engineering specs are dangerous (trojans and similar), but technology is neutral. Though if the races are using technology they don't truly understand, I suppose there's a certain level of danger, from not understanding potential side-effects or whatever.Aquilas wrote...
The extant organics and synthetics aren't ready to use the relay technology? The Reaper tech?
Say what?
They've been using it for millenia. Yes, they've been traveling down paths laid by the Reapers, but they've been doing so unawares. Now they are aware. And they've been using Reaper tech without becoming indoctrinated on a galactic scale; if they had been, the Reapers could have pulled up some kilometer-sized deck chairs and toasted organics as they marched happily into the slurry tubes.
So let me get this straight: with full awareness and no Reapers to trap them, organics will be trapped by Reaper tech. Sounds as if the Catalyst, otherwise known as Star-jars, has succeeded in indoctrinating every last organic through its rigorous, irrefutable logic.
BioWare is promulgating these ideas in an obvious attempt to "clarify" destroying the relays. "Clarification" needs to be called precisely what it is: rationalization.
#424
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 07:47
MyChemicalBromance
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It's a good theory and I like the initiative, but I'm not so sure it's feasible.CapnManx wrote...
MyChemicalBromance wrote...
Just read into special relativity. Anyone arguing that galactic travel at 12[ly/day] is too slow for survival is basically saying it's impossible to fly around the world in a supersonic jet. Damn it would be cool if Eezo was real.
And I have been doing further reading into static electricity and ion thrusters. What was once pure speculation on my part is backed up by physics.
I have cracked the core charge problem!
Static electricity is caused normally (or in other words, by accident) by two non conductive surfaces coming into contact with each other. Electrons pass from one object to the other, then get stuck when the objects are separated. This results in one object having a 'positive' charge (not enough electrons), and the other having a 'negative' charge (too many electrons). Static discharge occurs when equilibrium is restored ('neutral' being the natural state of matter, and the state it generally tries to return to); with surplus electrons jumping to lonely protons via any handy conductive path (if you've ever got a shock off something, that conductive path was probably you).
Core charge skips the 'electron swapping via contact' bit, because it happens on purpose; the core is exposed to a positive charge to increase mass, or a negative charge to decrease it. Since the point of the core is to lower the mass of the ship, the charge used for FTL flight will be negative.
So that's how we end up with the need to discharge the core; it's swimming in surplus electrons, due to the negative charge. It can be assumed that eezo is less than idealy conductive, and that electrons get stuck in or on it.
To neutralise the charge, a ship grounds itself by either making physical contact with a planet, or by interacting with a planet's magnetic field; failure to do so results in the core discharging into the ship's hull.
However, this holds true if the only place it could discharge into is the ship itself. The solution then, is provide an alternative place for the core to discharge. Which brings me to ion thrusters.
There is a particular type, called an 'electrostatic ion thruster', that is particularly relevant; it converts small quantities of fuel (usually xenon gas) into ions, and propells them in a beam out the back of the space craft. These ions all carry a positive charge; creating the risks of charge build up, and of the ions returning to the space craft (thus canceling the thrust). The problem is dealt with by firing a stream of electrons into the ion beam; thus neutralising the charge.
See where I'm going here?
The solution then, is to have electrostatic ion thrusters supplementing whatever other propulsion system the ship uses; and make sure that the paths from the element zero core to the ion beams are more conductive than the paths from the core to the hull. The static in the core will naturally discharge into the ion thrusters; both enabling the thrusters to function, and preventing static build up within the ship.
From a narrative standpoint, solving the discharge problem would have been beneficial to military operations even with the relays, so I find it unlikely no one would have found a solution that we can see.
From a technical standpoint, remember that a current must be run through the core to induce a Mass Effect field. Just adding charge wouldn't do anything; the charge is left behind by the current. The excess charge was incidental, not intentional.
To remove electrons from a charged surface, that surface must be exposed to an object with less or opposite charge. This creates an electric potential difference (voltage), which is rectified when the electrons flow (creating a different current) between the surfaces and balance the charge. If the electric potential is great enough (can overcome the permeability of free space), the current can run without direct contact. This is the spark you see from static discharge. The Eezo core doesn't automatically ground out to the ship because it isn't touching anything. It remains to be seen how the Eezo core is suspended, but there are two likely possibilities, the first being that the Mass Effect Field affects the Eezo also, or that Eezo is ferromagnetic and could be suspended by magnetic fields. I would guess a combination of the two.
Your idea for repurposing the charge is good, but the problem comes down to removing the charge in the first place. The charge would have to be removed, as the only way to get Xenon to remove it would be to flood the core with Xenon itself. This would make the prospect of preventing a grounding even more complicated.
Ultimately, we would also need more information on the electrostatic properties of Eezo to make any sound design anyway. Funneling the charge to Ion drives could work, and ion drives would be a great means of long-distance travel with low fueld concerns (They wouldn't be as fast, but still extremely fast with Mass Effect Fields).
#425
Posté 11 avril 2012 - 08:24
CapnManx
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MyChemicalBromance wrote...
It's a good theory and I like the initiative, but I'm not so sure it's feasible.
From a narrative standpoint, solving the discharge problem would have been beneficial to military operations even with the relays, so I find it unlikely no one would have found a solution that we can see.
From a technical standpoint, remember that a current must be run through the core to induce a Mass Effect field. Just adding charge wouldn't do anything; the charge is left behind by the current. The excess charge was incidental, not intentional.
To remove electrons from a charged surface, that surface must be exposed to an object with less or opposite charge. This creates an electric potential difference (voltage), which is rectified when the electrons flow (creating a different current) between the surfaces and balance the charge. If the electric potential is great enough (can overcome the permeability of free space), the current can run without direct contact. This is the spark you see from static discharge. The Eezo core doesn't automatically ground out to the ship because it isn't touching anything. It remains to be seen how the Eezo core is suspended, but there are two likely possibilities, the first being that the Mass Effect Field affects the Eezo also, or that Eezo is ferromagnetic and could be suspended by magnetic fields. I would guess a combination of the two.
Your idea for repurposing the charge is good, but the problem comes down to removing the charge in the first place. The charge would have to be removed, as the only way to get Xenon to remove it would be to flood the core with Xenon itself. This would make the prospect of preventing a grounding even more complicated.
Ultimately, we would also need more information on the electrostatic properties of Eezo to make any sound design anyway. Funneling the charge to Ion drives could work, and ion drives would be a great means of long-distance travel with low fueld concerns (They wouldn't be as fast, but still extremely fast with Mass Effect Fields).
Or am I overlooking something?
---Edit---
Duh. Never mind about the charge jumping. Teach me to speed read.
Still, the core must be in contact with some kind of conductive field or substance, or how would they run a current through it? So waiting for it to build up enough to jump through plain old vanilla atmosphere may not be necessary.
Modifié par CapnManx, 11 avril 2012 - 08:59 .
