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I'm afraid we need to use... Math (Weekes is right).


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#426
Dobiog101

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MyChemicalBromance wrote...


All they have to do now is explain why destroying the relays didn't kill everyone and you guys can all have your happy endings.

 


If you pay close attention to the initial mass relay explosion you can see that the beam leaving actualy takes all the energy with it. You can actually see that at the center of the relay there is no energy left, meaning just the construct is destroyed, therefore there is not an uber explosion a la Arrival.

Image IPB

Modifié par Dobiog101, 11 avril 2012 - 08:56 .


#427
goose2989

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Fuel is the biggest concern, then food. Also, you can't just go in a straight line across the galaxy.

While I appreciate your post, OP, this is all speculation. If that was the intended message at the ending (that the galaxy will get along just fine without the Relays) it damn well should have been answered clearly

Modifié par goose2989, 11 avril 2012 - 09:08 .


#428
goose2989

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Dobiog101 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


All they have to do now is explain why destroying the relays didn't kill everyone and you guys can all have your happy endings.

 


If you pay close attention to the initial mass relay explosion you can see that the beam leaving actualy takes all the energy with it. You can actually see that at the center of the relay there is no energy left, meaning just the construct is destroyed, therefore there is not an uber explosion a la Arrival.

Image IPB


I think Bioware did intend this to be the case, but it should have been clearly stated by the Catalyst. The only time we've destroyed a Mass Relay (The Arrival) it blew the entire system to Hell. Bioware should not be surprised that this is the reaction we've had

#429
CapnManx

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goose2989 wrote...

Fuel is the biggest concern, than food. Also, you can't just go in a straight line across the galaxy.

While I appreciate your post, OP, this is all speculation. If that was the intended message at the ending (that the galaxy will get along just fine without the Relays) is damn well should have been answered clearly


Well, the only alternative is to assume that the 'message' BioWare was deliberately sending is that everybody is up the creek.  Which as victories for organic life go... isn't one.

#430
MyChemicalBromance

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CapnManx wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


It's a good theory and I like the initiative, but I'm not so sure it's feasible.

From a narrative standpoint, solving the discharge problem would have been beneficial to military operations even with the relays, so I find it unlikely no one would have found a solution that we can see.

From a technical standpoint, remember that a current must be run through the core to induce a Mass Effect field. Just adding charge wouldn't do anything; the charge is left behind by the current. The excess charge was incidental, not intentional.

To remove electrons from a charged surface, that surface must be exposed to an object with less or opposite charge. This creates an electric potential difference (voltage), which is rectified when the electrons flow (creating a different current) between the surfaces and balance the charge. If the electric potential is great enough (can overcome the permeability of free space), the current can run without direct contact. This is the spark you see from static discharge. The Eezo core doesn't automatically ground out to the ship because it isn't touching anything. It remains to be seen how the Eezo core is suspended, but there are two likely possibilities, the first being that the Mass Effect Field affects the Eezo also, or that Eezo is ferromagnetic and could be suspended by magnetic fields. I would guess a combination of the two.

Your idea for repurposing the charge is good, but the problem comes down to removing the charge in the first place. The charge would have to be removed, as the only way to get Xenon to remove it would be to flood the core with Xenon itself. This would make the prospect of preventing a grounding even more complicated.

Ultimately, we would also need more information on the electrostatic properties of Eezo to make any sound design anyway. Funneling the charge to Ion drives could work, and ion drives would be a great means of long-distance travel with low fueld concerns (They wouldn't be as fast, but still extremely fast with Mass Effect Fields).


Surely if it needed to be removed, then it couldn't discharge into the ship at all?

The charge has to jump from the core to someplace or it would just sit there forever; and it'll always jump by the easiest and most conductive route.  Surrounding the core with conductors that will carry the charge to the ion beams (which are positively charged and will thus act as an attractant) would prevent it from jumping anywhere else.

Or am I overlooking something?


The idea is somewhat sound, I was just pointing out (electrical) conceptual errors. As I said though, we can't know for sure without more info on Eezo.

The biggest problem will be the transfer of charge.

It is not obvious how Element Zero becomes charged at all. An atomic number of zero implies that it has no protons, and thus really isn't made of anything.

"Element One" (Hydrogen) consists of one proton and one electron. If you remove that proton, all you have is an electron (and electrons are not Eezo ;), which would not attract more electrons.

A force that could bind electrons to electrons would be extremely strong, and it is likely that we could not create a strong enough potential difference (within the confines of a ship) to facilitate a current that would discharge the core in any meaningful way. This is likely why they must discharge into planets, as nothing smaller would allow that great of a potential difference. It is also stated that it takes longer to discharge into smaller planets, which is consistant with the "low current" scenario I described.

It may not be impossible to solve this problem (The Citadel never discharged, and the Reapers apparently didn't have to), but we couldn't solve it without more info on Element Zero and the forces involved in Mass Effect fields. I'm guessing it's beyond 2186 tech as well, since it is definitely something they would have solved if they could.

#431
MyChemicalBromance

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Dobiog101 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


All they have to do now is explain why destroying the relays didn't kill everyone and you guys can all have your happy endings.

 


If you pay close attention to the initial mass relay explosion you can see that the beam leaving actualy takes all the energy with it. You can actually see that at the center of the relay there is no energy left, meaning just the construct is destroyed, therefore there is not an uber explosion a la Arrival.

Image IPB

Thanks for the pic. We came to a similar conclusion earlier in the thread. I'll edit the OP.

#432
MyChemicalBromance

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As positive or negative electric current is passed through an FTL drive core, it acquires a static electrical charge. Drives can be operated an average of 50 hours before they reach charge saturation. This changes proportionally to the magnitude of mass reduction; a heavier or faster ship reaches saturation more quickly.

This seem to agree with our statement. The size of the core relative to the mass of the ship is proportional to the saturation limit. Therefore, a massive core on a small ship (like the Normandy SR1) will need to be discharged less frequently.

#433
Warrior Craess

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liquiddemon wrote...

Like legion said in me2

Technology is not a straight line and there are many ways to reach a technology.

It makes sense the relays had to go. Reaper technology directing civilizations in a certain direction.


Now that they are gone we can follow our own technological path. The cycle is broken and the future is bright. I believe that will be made clear in extended cut


The problem with the relays was it allowed the reapers to direct not only how we advanced technologically, but also where we would live.  The question is why is that bad?  Answer it allows reapers to predict both what tech level we'll be at, and where we will be.  Solution, avoid dependance on reaper tech, or destroy reapers.  Either way works to free you from the dangers of being controlled by the reapers. 

there is no intrinsic problem with following the technological path that the reapers wanted us to follow. 

#434
Warrior Craess

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freaking edittor...

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 12 avril 2012 - 02:07 .


#435
Warrior Craess

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There has to be a fuel source for an explosion. In the atomic bomb the fuel isn't actually 
visibly energized.  It still makes a huge freaking explosion. C4 is a dang good explosive and you can burn it like firewood with out it exploding. It can sit ther as a lump of clay, and emites no visiable energy.

Put a blasting cap in it though and it's extremely explosive.  So just pointing out that you can not see an energized fuel source doesn't mean that it's not there. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 12 avril 2012 - 02:15 .


#436
MyChemicalBromance

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Warrior Craess wrote...

There has to be a fuel source for an explosion. In the atomic bomb the fuel isn't actually 
visibly energized.  It still makes a huge freaking explosion. C4 is a dang good explosive and you can burn it like firewood with out it exploding. It can sit ther as a lump of clay, and emites no visiable energy.

Put a blasting cap in it though and it's extremely explosive.  So just pointing out that you can not see an energized fuel source doesn't mean that it's not there. 


I made a new thread that brings this up, as well as other things about the Relays.
http://social.biowar.../index/11314964

#437
MyChemicalBromance

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Ctserber wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Ctserber wrote...

Where did it ever say that having a disproprtionally large core increases travel time before discharge is required?


The core not only makes the Normandy quiet and fast, but means she can run at FTL speeds for much longer before having to discharge the drive.

This is referring to the Tantalus Drive Core, which was twice the size of a normal core. No other information was given on it that made it different. That was quoted from the wiki, and was said by Engineer Adams in Mass Effect 1.

Talking specificually about the unique prototype Tantalus core, not core size in general. The Tantalus Drive Core is an expirimental, prototype drive core that happens to be twice the size of a normal core, but it's not the size that gives it the unique properties, herwise it'd be a simple matter to just slap every ship with a core two times bigger than their standard issue. There is absolutely nothing, anywhere in the entire canon, that states that core size in anyway affects static charge buildup. Charge buildup is a result of the strength of the mass effect field. A stronger field requires a larger core, and typically larger ships require stronger fields, and hence have larger cores. But it's the strength of the field, not the size of the core causing the field, that results in static saturation.


Found a codex entry that actually supports it. Added to OP.

#438
MyChemicalBromance

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goose2989 wrote...

While I appreciate your post, OP, this is all speculation. If that was the intended message at the ending (that the galaxy will get along just fine without the Relays) it damn well should have been answered clearly

I won't argue with you that the ending was delivered poorly.

However, given this information, an extended cut could rectify this situation, whereas it could not rectify an "everyone is dead" scenario. That is something, at least.

#439
CapnManx

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MyChemicalBromance wrote...



The idea is somewhat sound, I was just pointing out (electrical) conceptual errors. As I said though, we can't know for sure without more info on Eezo.

The biggest problem will be the transfer of charge.

It is not obvious how Element Zero becomes charged at all. An atomic number of zero implies that it has no protons, and thus really isn't made of anything.

"Element One" (Hydrogen) consists of one proton and one electron. If you remove that proton, all you have is an electron (and electrons are not Eezo ;), which would not attract more electrons.

A force that could bind electrons to electrons would be extremely strong, and it is likely that we could not create a strong enough potential difference (within the confines of a ship) to facilitate a current that would discharge the core in any meaningful way. This is likely why they must discharge into planets, as nothing smaller would allow that great of a potential difference. It is also stated that it takes longer to discharge into smaller planets, which is consistant with the "low current" scenario I described.

It may not be impossible to solve this problem (The Citadel never discharged, and the Reapers apparently didn't have to), but we couldn't solve it without more info on Element Zero and the forces involved in Mass Effect fields. I'm guessing it's beyond 2186 tech as well, since it is definitely something they would have solved if they could.


I've been thinking about this some more, and it occurs to me that some way of transfering the charge must already exist; since the core itself never comes into contact with a planet surface or magnetosphere. 

The charge would have to move into the hull first wouldn't it?  Wouldn't that imply that they have a safe way of doing this that would prevent the kind of problems caused by the core discharging into the ship?

Furthermore, they couldn't just wait until the charge had built to dangerous levels before they could do anything about it (that would be stupid), so they must have a way of performing a safe discharge without relying on the charge being strong enough to jump through the air.  That means they must have some way of removing the surplus electrons from the core already.

I don't enjoy beating my head against walls enough to speculate much about the nature of eezo; they put it on the periodic table, so it must form atoms, but beyond that... I assume it to be 'neutronium', but that doesn't tell us a whole lot of anything about its properties.

#440
MyChemicalBromance

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I've got a pretty crazy idea that solves the discharge problem, the dark energy problem, and the Sol problem all in one package. On top of that, it makes sense that they wouldn't be able to solve those problems earlier. I know; I wouldn't believe it either. And it doesn't use un-established themes like linkless relays. I'm busy right now, but I'll post it in another "Omega-type" thread on Friday.

#441
MyChemicalBromance

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Two more days and we'll find out.