440 réponses à ce sujet

[The Divine Avenger]

General User wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Galactic civilisation is still destroyed. You cannot have galactic trade over those timescales.

Galactic civilization as we've known it is still destroyed.  But galactic civilization as we've known it was a racist plutocracy so... not an entirely bad thing imo.

Yes but the fact Shepard was able to untie them dispite everything shows that they can put aside there differences. Had the relays stayed in tacked they'd have set the stage for a new galactic civillization to take it's place but now instead there all.......srewed.

[MyChemicalBromance]

The Angry One wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
you're still stuck with needing more fuel than god to get anywhere.

Check the OP for concerns on fuel. We don't need as much as we use in the galaxy map.

Irrelevant.
Fuel is constantly consumed in FTL due to the power generation required to run a current through the Eezo core.

The Mass Effect Envelope is present whether or not the ship is moving.
This is generated by the Eezo core.
The Normandy can sit in a system for weeks according to Joker, and it is never stated that fuel is the limiting factor.
The Normandy runs out of fuel in hours if it is moving.

Therefore, the fuel consumed by accelerating is extreme compared to the fuel consumed by powering the envelope.

[Sifr]

I'd like to add that the Quarians potentially added some of their liveships to the fleet, so they wouldn't have much problem and could ration food with the Turians. On the other hand, the Turian would eventually have the biggest issue with food, as Palaven is on the other side of the Galaxy from Rannoch!

After 300 years of wanting to go home, I doubt the Quarians would be happy to take a long winded detour to Palaven simply so they could be the Turian's burger-van.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 08 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[Esoretal]

The Divine Avenger wrote...

DGuyton wrote...

Udalango wrote...

So what happens when the Krogans and Salarians stop to refuel at the same planet?

Hilarity ensues.

The Krogan eat the Salarians

Their liver is a delicacy.

[KingNothing125]

erilben wrote...

Even the codex writer said lots people will die without the relays.

*snip*

Bittersweet!

[Orthodox Infidel]

brp1410 wrote...

If you're going by RL logic then by the time you cross the galaxy at FTL or near FTL hundreds of thousands of years have passed outside the ship. So w/e you were set out to do would be irrelevant by the time you get to where you were trying to get, no one is stranded on earth though if that's what you were saying.

Incorrect for FTL. At "near FTL" you are correct.

Once you start actually travelling faster that light, this problem goes away because you're technically travelling backwards in time (this is part of the reason that FTL is impossible in reality). Since this obviously doesn't happen in the Mass Effect universe (or any universe I'm aware of that depends on FTL travel), we can assume this isn't a problem.

[Bantz]

regardless this is the problem. This kind of stuff (ok maybe not the math but the answers to what happens) SHOULD have been explained by the ending. The is the finale of a trilogy we shouldn't have to go to twitter and stuff to figure out how things play out in the ending.

[SilentK]

Erield wrote...

SilentK wrote...

Erield wrote...

SilentK wrote...

So, long distance travel will require lots of time. I can live with that =)

edit: as far as food goes, there are still maps, and plantes with resources. Pro-tip is aiming for a planet with stuff you need.

Less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored.  All it would take is a few stops on your destination not having a planet with a strong enough magnetosphere to discharge static buildup and you die.  Maybe a few stops without any planets that have He3 to serve as fuel, or you die.  There are no supply lines, no place of retreat, unless you want to do this the slow way.

So, you want to forge a path across the galaxy in a slow, controlled fashion in order to limit needless death?  First you have to survive the coming Resource Wars; nearly all of the functional fleets of the entire galaxy are trapped in Sol.  Sol is a system that is rather far depleted of natural resources even before the Reapers.  After the Reaper attack, food will be a major concern, considering that there isn't much.  Much of the food-producing areas of the planet have been scorched by the Reapers in efforts to corral the humans into more efficient husk-producing lines.  Stores of food on the remainder of the fleets will only last a relatively short amount of time.

In short, no one will be taking a slow, cautious route to mapping the galaxy, complete with fuel depots and way-stations, any time soon. 

Hmm... well yes, aim for plantes with things you need. If you don't know what resouces are or are not available at a specific planet. It is up to the ship to decide if they want to investigate, if it is worth it or not. Plantes with things you need, those you know through previous knowledge or maps.

You miss the point that on any galactic journey from point A (Sol) to point B (let's say...Palaven) there's a 1% chance that you will have a good idea of what is in the next solar system over.  While there is almost definitely a route that will take you there successfully, it will take a long time for the first path to be found.  Let's just completely ignore food as a necessary resource, here.

Let's go with your ship being average: you can travel 12 ly per day, and need to dump static charge after 50 hours of travel.  Let's also say that you can travel 100 ly before needing to refuel (I have seen no estimates on this, so either I'm dumb or they don't exist except as a gameplay mechanic which should not be taken as truth.)  

Now then, imagine that your proposed path is this:  x 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 goal!   You are in system x, trying to get to system goal.  You have a good idea of what kind of planets are in 1, but very little idea in the rest.  You spend 1 day (24 hours) getting to system 1.  You are able to dump your charge, and there was a gas giant that you were able to get He3 for fuel (somehow.  We'll just assume you can.).  You run your scanners, and it turns out that 2 has nothing that would help you, but there are a couple of other choices.  2a has fuel, 2b has magnetosphere.  Unfortunately, both of those are far enough away from 3 that you would have to significantly change your proposed path.

Do you choose to go to 2, to see if 3 is suitable as a 'save'?  Or do you go with 2a, to refuel and hope to find a path that doesn't significantly add time to your journey?  Or maybe you go with 2b, knowing that you have a bit of spare fuel (you just filled up) but dumping charge is a requirement or else you die?

Every. Single. System.  would involve choices like that.  Backtracking to replenish/resupply and to take alternate routes will almost definitely be required.  Sure, after a few hundred years, this won't be necessary.  But we're not talking in the future.  We're talking about the fleets of people starving in Sol.

No, I fully do get that there will be ships left stranded. Ships running out of fuel. There will be chaos until there is some kind of system going. If you are in an unknown area, things may not end well. But I do think that with time there will be hubs with trade. Routes that people know work. I am not saying that every single ship will make it. Simply that as I see it, with time people will make it. Someone discovers a good planet to land on, they tell friends on another ship and then with time it is a established landingpoint. It will take time.

[The Divine Avenger]

Udalango wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

DGuyton wrote...

Udalango wrote...

So what happens when the Krogans and Salarians stop to refuel at the same planet?

Hilarity ensues.

The Krogan eat the Salarians

Poor rest of the galaxy at that point.  Krogan realize other species are tasty and instead of going to Tuchanka just follows the other fleets around.
I doubt Turians taste all that great though

lol well the galaxy should have seen it coming after all the blood pack did plan to settle on the salarians homeworld & eat there egg's so they should have known

Modifié par The Divine Avenger, 08 avril 2012 - 04:16 .

[The Angry One]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
you're still stuck with needing more fuel than god to get anywhere.

Check the OP for concerns on fuel. We don't need as much as we use in the galaxy map.

Irrelevant.
Fuel is constantly consumed in FTL due to the power generation required to run a current through the Eezo core.

The Mass Effect Envelope is present whether or not the ship is moving.
This is generated by the Eezo core.
The Normandy can sit in a system for weeks according to Joker, and it is never stated that fuel is the limiting factor.
The Normandy runs out of fuel in hours if it is moving.

Therefore, the fuel consumed by accelerating is extreme compared to the fuel consumed by powering the envelope.

More current = less mass.
Less mass = FTL.

[General User]

Zix13 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

The Quarians survived for 300 years.

They also had the mass relays to travel between systems to purchase/barter for fuel, food, and other supplies. Did you really even think that reply through?

They grew their own food.

They can transport their own fuel infrastructure.

Manufactories to make refined tools out of raw materials are established.



Fortunately, the ME universe has the explanation technologies necessary.

They also needed resources to construct that infrastructure. Sol has little to no usable resources since the reapers have scorched the hell out of earth. No matter how you look at it there are not enough resources in Sol to make this a happy ending. 

As far as metalic and non-metalic minerals and elements go (even such things as water and oxygen) the planet Earth itself never was the only source of natural resources in the Solar System.  Often it may well not have even been the main source.  It wasn't for fuel anyway.

[Orthodox Infidel]

I like your post, OP, but there is one quibble I have with you on fuel...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

So why is fuel consumed in the galaxy map?

(Quoted from ME1 Codex)

Any long-duration interstellar flight consists of two phases: acceleration and deceleration. Starships accelerate to the half-way point of their journey, then flip 180 degrees and apply thrust on the opposite vector, decelerating as they finish the trip. The engines are always operating, and peak speed is attained at the middle of the flight.

Fuel is thus only consumed when attempting to travel as fast as possible, or when making course corrections. Deceleration is needed because you don't want to be moving at 12[ly/day] when you reach your destination.

If we held at "cruising speed," we wouldn't need any fuel at all to move anywhere. Then the problem comes down to discharge and food sources.

As other people have mentioned, you have to discharge every two days or so. At 12 ly/day, there's lots of stuff to discharge against, but your trip will be a long series of stops rather than one cruise straight to where you're going. Every time you stop or start, you're going to have to light your fusion torch (or whatever), and that means fuel is a limiting factor.

[Sifr]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

brp1410 wrote...

If you're going by RL logic then by the time you cross the galaxy at FTL or near FTL hundreds of thousands of years have passed outside the ship. So w/e you were set out to do would be irrelevant by the time you get to where you were trying to get, no one is stranded on earth though if that's what you were saying.

Incorrect for FTL. At "near FTL" you are correct.

Once you start actually travelling faster that light, this problem goes away because you're technically travelling backwards in time (this is part of the reason that FTL is impossible in reality). Since this obviously doesn't happen in the Mass Effect universe (or any universe I'm aware of that depends on FTL travel), we can assume this isn't a problem.

Time dilation and time travel aren't the same thing. You wouldn't go backwards in time, time would slow down for the passengers on the ship relative to the outside universe.

Also, it is an FTL jump. The difficulty with going Faster-than-Light with a conventional system is that you would gain infinite mass when you reach the Lightspeed barrier, something that a Mass Effect field can circumvent and counteract.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 08 avril 2012 - 04:14 .

[Utopianus]

Billabong2011 wrote...

So it's basically the Odyssey in space?

Excellent thought! I can just see it now - ME4 will be about the tribulations of one or all of the races who went to Earth in aid of the humans and are now on their long journey home. There will be more magics, deus ex machina and Space Cyclops. It all makes sense now, because the Citadel was the Trojan Horse! Brilliant!! I think I might actually want to play a game like that.

[Hudathan]

Billabong2011 wrote...

So it's basically the Odyssey in space?

I'd play it.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

SilentK wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

SilentK wrote...
 How is it a problem that trade is more expensive and dangerous? The Blue Suns and their ilk did exist before. Trading wasn't a picnic at any time. Life changes.

Because now you can't simply use the mass relays to get from one hub to another. Yes there were always pirates and such, but now there are vast distances away from the centers of civilization that you must cross to get there. No fuel stations, no place to get food, and no Council fleets nearby. There are now many more opportunities for hostile action or simple mechanical malfunction to kill you and it is now much harder for any help to reach you.

And the ending scene simply says, on one place there is one family that cannot get to the stars. "When will I go to the stars?". "When we have the money". In case they are to poor to go on a expensive space-flight. "When a ship comes by", in case it is a garden planet meaning they can take care of themselves but not travel. There are several different ways to look at that. But one person asking to go to the stars=/=no existense of starfligt.

The scene implies interstellar travel and they have no idea whether anyone else is actually out there. "Each of those stars may have many worlds" does not say "damn I wish I could afford to fly". I can't afford to go flying around the world, I still know the rest of the world is out there.

Ahh.. good memory there   =)   I forgot about the last bit there about
many worlds. Well , then perhaps they are on a garden planet. All I am
saying that one person not being able to fly does not mean that there is
no spaceflight.

And I agree, travel will be much more dangerous. That
comes with all the changes. Maybe I misinterperted your original post, but I thought you felt that it was a problem with the endings that there was no more fast travel. Hmm... I don't see it as a problem but rather as a new interesting turn of events. Wonder what will happen. But I think that they people living in this time will adapt.

Is it interesting? Sure. And galactic "civilization" will probably survive on some level in some places and eventually reemerge. But the OP and Weekes' "interview" seems to suggest we really didn't need the Mass Relays after all and that with some Reaper tech(which I'm sure will be incredibly easy to reverse engineer and won't indoctrinate us or anything) we'll be right back where we were in no time.I don't like the endings in general and I'm still waiting to see how the massive release of energy from the relays didn't kill everyone(Weekes supposedly said they were "overloaded" rather than ruptur but their destruction is not an inherent evil provided it's handled right(and we can possibly rebuild them).

[General User]

The Divine Avenger wrote...

General User wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Galactic civilisation is still destroyed. You cannot have galactic trade over those timescales.

Galactic civilization as we've known it is still destroyed.  But galactic civilization as we've known it was a racist plutocracy so... not an entirely bad thing imo.

Yes but the fact Shepard was able to untie them dispite everything shows that they can put aside there differences. Had the relays stayed in tacked they'd have set the stage for a new galactic civillization to take it's place but now instead there all.......srewed.

That's very... optimistic of you.  Temporarily putting aside differences to face a mortal threat isn't at all the same as knocking down an entrenched race-based power structure that was millenia in the making.

[MyChemicalBromance]

The Angry One wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
you're still stuck with needing more fuel than god to get anywhere.

Check the OP for concerns on fuel. We don't need as much as we use in the galaxy map.

Irrelevant.
Fuel is constantly consumed in FTL due to the power generation required to run a current through the Eezo core.

The Mass Effect Envelope is present whether or not the ship is moving.
This is generated by the Eezo core.
The Normandy can sit in a system for weeks according to Joker, and it is never stated that fuel is the limiting factor.
The Normandy runs out of fuel in hours if it is moving.

Therefore, the fuel consumed by accelerating is extreme compared to the fuel consumed by powering the envelope.

More current = less mass.
Less mass = FTL.

We still have no reference point for the amount current/power it takes to power the core at FTL. Unfortunately, both of us are speculating past that point.

We do know however that the solutions to this problem exist, as evidenced by the Reapers flying in from dark space. Whether or not the galaxy takes this info from the Reapers, we do know it is possible for them to solve the issues on their own. If "food" is solved, they have enough time.

[Vormaerin]

Given that the fleets took heavy casualties and Earth lost lots of its population, there's no reason to believe that the Earth couldn't support the survivors. And don't give me any BS about the Dextro vs Levo stuff. RIght now, today, we can synthesize foods with the alternate proteins. They are sold in stores even, as a kind of messed up dieting technique.

There's also the possibility that superior ftl drives could be built, but aren't because the Relays are so much more effective. There's all kinds of technologies in the real world that work, but were never used extensively because you could do the same thing better another way.

The Galaxy was in for a "Dark age" just from all the destruction the reapers caused. The loss of the Relays will make it worse for a while, certainly. Its not the end of galactic civilization.

Just FYI, there are about 80 star systems within a 2 day trip of Earth using the 12 ly/d standard. That's rather a lot of possibilities....


Edit:  The Centauri system is 8 hours away by that standard....

Modifié par Vormaerin, 08 avril 2012 - 04:19 .

[evisneffo]

Udalango wrote...

So what happens when the Krogans and Salarians stop to refuel at the same planet?

The krogan are dead. Recall that they needed to be sedated in order to be shipped across the galaxy without killing each other, and that was while the relays still existed.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
you're still stuck with needing more fuel than god to get anywhere.

Check the OP for concerns on fuel. We don't need as much as we use in the galaxy map.

Irrelevant.
Fuel is constantly consumed in FTL due to the power generation required to run a current through the Eezo core.

The Mass Effect Envelope is present whether or not the ship is moving.
This is generated by the Eezo core.
The Normandy can sit in a system for weeks according to Joker, and it is never stated that fuel is the limiting factor.
The Normandy runs out of fuel in hours if it is moving.

Therefore, the fuel consumed by accelerating is extreme compared to the fuel consumed by powering the envelope.

Why would the Normandy be powering a mass effect field if it's stationary? Inertia would seem to still serve your point, but why would the Normandy need to alter its mass while loitering undetected in a system? The fact the the eezo core is still pulsing when you're not moving does not mean it is generating a mass effect field.

Modifié par Deuterium_Dawn, 08 avril 2012 - 04:22 .

[The Divine Avenger]

General User wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

General User wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Galactic civilisation is still destroyed. You cannot have galactic trade over those timescales.

Galactic civilization as we've known it is still destroyed.  But galactic civilization as we've known it was a racist plutocracy so... not an entirely bad thing imo.

Yes but the fact Shepard was able to untie them dispite everything shows that they can put aside there differences. Had the relays stayed in tacked they'd have set the stage for a new galactic civillization to take it's place but now instead there all.......srewed.

That's very... optimistic of you.  Temporarily putting aside differences to face a mortal threat isn't at all the same as knocking down an entrenched race-based power structure that was millenia in the making.

Yes but think about it with how devistated each of the reces worlds have been they are going to need eachother for support & that builds bonds. 1 eg has already happened the quarians & the geth, dispite being at odds for the past 300 years the geth were still helping the quarians to ajust to livin on the planet after all that time, That to me says hope.

Modifié par The Divine Avenger, 08 avril 2012 - 04:21 .

[brp1410]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

brp1410 wrote...

If you're going by RL logic then by the time you cross the galaxy at FTL or near FTL hundreds of thousands of years have passed outside the ship. So w/e you were set out to do would be irrelevant by the time you get to where you were trying to get, no one is stranded on earth though if that's what you were saying.

Incorrect for FTL. At "near FTL" you are correct.

Once you start actually travelling faster that light, this problem goes away because you're technically travelling backwards in time (this is part of the reason that FTL is impossible in reality). Since this obviously doesn't happen in the Mass Effect universe (or any universe I'm aware of that depends on FTL travel), we can assume this isn't a problem.

Time dilation and time travel aren't the same thing. You wouldn't go backwards in time, time would slow down for the passengers on the ship relative to the outside universe.

Also, it is an FTL jump. The difficulty with going Faster-than-Light with a conventional system is that you would gain infinite mass when you reach the Lightspeed barrier, something that a Mass Effect field can circumvent and counteract.

@Orthodox Infidel, Can you tell me what explains FTL = backwards in time? I was under the impression that general reletivity applied to FTL as well. 

[Siduri]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Based on this information, it would only take around 23 years to cross the entire galaxy, even without Reaper upgrades

 

Really? That's hilarious, I totally pulled that same number out of my butt when I was doing the unofficial epilogue slides.

This gives me every reason to hope that the actual DLC will be at least as hopeful/victorious as the fan-made version. Personally, I can't wait. Thanks for doing the math on that, it's really interesting!

[CronoDragoon]

General User wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

General User wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Galactic civilisation is still destroyed. You cannot have galactic trade over those timescales.

Galactic civilization as we've known it is still destroyed.  But galactic civilization as we've known it was a racist plutocracy so... not an entirely bad thing imo.

Yes but the fact Shepard was able to untie them dispite everything shows that they can put aside there differences. Had the relays stayed in tacked they'd have set the stage for a new galactic civillization to take it's place but now instead there all.......srewed.

That's very... optimistic of you.  Temporarily putting aside differences to face a mortal threat isn't at all the same as knocking down an entrenched race-based power structure that was millenia in the making.

I was under the impression that Mass Effect is all about optimism until the ending.