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[MyChemicalBromance]

Pandaman102 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Joker describes vat-grown meat on human ships, implies it is common. (1:21)

That gives an out for Levo-Amino Acids (Everyone except Quarians and Turians)

(Quoted from ME2 Codex)

There are few wide-open spaces in quarian spacecrafts; liveships are the exception. Each ship is a massive hydroponics facility, growing thousands of tons of genetically modified staple crops under artificial light and in highly enriched soil.
The surface of a liveship is studded with docking bays so as many shuttles as possible can distribute the foods throughout the flotilla on a daily basis. When received, the crops are sterilized with radiation, ground up into nutritious paste, and pumped into quarian suits through feeding tubes. In return, waste products are that could be used as fertilizer or compost are returned to the liveships through an efficient (if odorous) recycling program.
Liveships do not hold animals. The quarians consume a vegan diet, driven not by ethics but by practicality. Captive animals require living space, and consume large amounts of water and plant matter. The quarians cannot afford such an inefficient resource-to-calorie ratio, to say nothing of a live animal's disease or allergen potential. As a result, when the flotilla arrives in a star system where life is based on the same dextro-amino acids that the quarians consume, pastes based on animal proteins fetch highly inflated prices, and the vendors are typically mobbed by quarians wanting a new taste sensation. The sickness that often follows these binges is treated much the same way as hangovers are in human culture; painful, but part of the overall experience of excess.

And that covers Dextros.

 

You have to consider the concept of biomass. Given that Rannoch is on the other side of the galaxy, it will take the Quarians those two decades to travel from Earth to Rannoch. Without the convenience of mass relays to restock on certain necessities, Quarians will need to institute a strict breeding policy to prevent their biomass supply from running out (in the simplest term, every extra pound of Quarian means there's one pound less of biomass available to grow as food... unless Quarians resort to cannibalism).

The scenario of the Quarians helping feed the Turians (and help them return to Palaven before embarking on a journey back to Rannoch) requires one massive assumption: the production capacity of the Quarian agricultural ships. We don't know how many of the Quarians' civilians hopped off at Rannoch before the fleet jumped to Earth, nor do we know how many Turians there are that need to be fed; nor do we know if, Quarians being Quarians, the agricultural ships' hydroponic facilities were left on Rannoch to feed the still-immune-deficient Quarian civilians.

There are too many assumptions to make regarding the survivability of the dextro-based aliens, but one thing is definite: there is no future for Quarians and Turians on Earth, returning to their homeworld is their only option if their soldiers' wish to return to their normal lives.

Turians will have a short trip home.

As for the Quarians, let's not forget about the Geth. That's a huge fleet that could house and transport food stations, and their fleet wouldn't have to feed their original occupants.

Of course, anyone who picked the Destroy ending loses this asset...

[HeliusCarthaxis]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

The Quarians survived for 300 years.

They also had the mass relays to travel between systems to purchase/barter for fuel, food, and other supplies. Did you really even think that reply through?

They grew their own food.

They can transport their own fuel infrastructure.

Manufactories to make refined tools out of raw materials are established.



Fortunately, the ME universe has the explanation technologies necessary.

Really, now?
So its standard issue for Turian, or Asari, or Salarian ships to be outfitted with entire hydroponic facilities, despite the uselessness of such a thing in times when Mass Relays were used? Should we stock them with food? Earth doesn't have the resources anymore to do so, its in VERY bad condition. We couldn't supply the Turians with food anyways. The quarians lending them food? The quarians have difficulty feeding themselves, let alone the entire Turian fleet. This is assuming the quarians are still around following the events of Rannoch.

Where are they going to get these portable facilities? If you haven't noticed, Earth and the Sol system are kind of devastated beyond belief right now. I'm pretty sure the Reapers wouldn't let the He-3 facilities in orbit around our gas planets to survive, so there aren't any available to start towing, despite the logistical problems of that. Build new ones? Nope, Earth and the surrounding planets are crumbling ruins, thus, no production facilities, no mining facilities, nothing.

[Pandaman102]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Turians will have a short trip home.

As for the Quarians, let's not forget about the Geth. That's a huge fleet that could house and transport food stations, and their fleet wouldn't have to feed their original occupants.

Of course, anyone who picked the Destroy ending loses this asset...

That still doesn't resolve the issue about biomass. You can cram every ship full of food stations, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to actually grow food.

If the Quarians and Turians have enough food between them (remember they went to Earth on the assumption it would be a relatively quick resupply/repair if they won, because they would just be jumping back home in a matter of hours) and enough functioning hydroponic facilities on the Quarian ships, they can make it back to Palavan where the Quarians can restock on dextro-protein biomass for their agricultural ships to continue feeding their crew all the way back to Rannoch.

If they don't, then it will be a very short journey.

[MyChemicalBromance]

HeliusCarthaxis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

The Quarians survived for 300 years.

They also had the mass relays to travel between systems to purchase/barter for fuel, food, and other supplies. Did you really even think that reply through?

They grew their own food.

They can transport their own fuel infrastructure.

Manufactories to make refined tools out of raw materials are established.



Fortunately, the ME universe has the explanation technologies necessary.

Really, now?
So its standard issue for Turian, or Asari, or Salarian ships to be outfitted with entire hydroponic facilities, despite the uselessness of such a thing in times when Mass Relays were used? Should we stock them with food? Earth doesn't have the resources anymore to do so, its in VERY bad condition. We couldn't supply the Turians with food anyways. The quarians lending them food? The quarians have difficulty feeding themselves, let alone the entire Turian fleet. This is assuming the quarians are still around following the events of Rannoch.

Where are they going to get these portable facilities? If you haven't noticed, Earth and the Sol system are kind of devastated beyond belief right now. I'm pretty sure the Reapers wouldn't let the He-3 facilities in orbit around our gas planets to survive, so there aren't any available to start towing, despite the logistical problems of that. Build new ones? Nope, Earth and the surrounding planets are crumbling ruins, thus, no production facilities, no mining facilities, nothing.

There are "skimmer" ships in Mass Effect, that can take and use Helium 3 from the upper atmosphere of gas giants. As long as the Reapers didn't eat half the planets in Sol, we're good.

[Zix13]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

HeliusCarthaxis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

The Quarians survived for 300 years.

They also had the mass relays to travel between systems to purchase/barter for fuel, food, and other supplies. Did you really even think that reply through?

They grew their own food.

They can transport their own fuel infrastructure.

Manufactories to make refined tools out of raw materials are established.



Fortunately, the ME universe has the explanation technologies necessary.

Really, now?
So its standard issue for Turian, or Asari, or Salarian ships to be outfitted with entire hydroponic facilities, despite the uselessness of such a thing in times when Mass Relays were used? Should we stock them with food? Earth doesn't have the resources anymore to do so, its in VERY bad condition. We couldn't supply the Turians with food anyways. The quarians lending them food? The quarians have difficulty feeding themselves, let alone the entire Turian fleet. This is assuming the quarians are still around following the events of Rannoch.

Where are they going to get these portable facilities? If you haven't noticed, Earth and the Sol system are kind of devastated beyond belief right now. I'm pretty sure the Reapers wouldn't let the He-3 facilities in orbit around our gas planets to survive, so there aren't any available to start towing, despite the logistical problems of that. Build new ones? Nope, Earth and the surrounding planets are crumbling ruins, thus, no production facilities, no mining facilities, nothing.

There are "skimmer" ships in Mass Effect, that can take and use Helium 3 from the upper atmosphere of gas giants. As long as the Reapers didn't eat half the planets in Sol, we're good.

Protip: We don't have any " skimmer" ships in Sol. 

[Warrior Craess]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

NReed106 wrote...

Ahem, what of fuel? Are there random fuel stations everywhere in the uncharted galaxy?

Well there were....but the Normandy emptied them all in those war asset side missions.

If everyone had only known that war assets meant nothing at all, and the end is the same regardles, they may have left those fuel stations alone...

Whoops!

Actually the reapers destroyed most of them.  There are only a few fuel points left.
It's rather moot though, becuase in pretty much all cases the reapers also trashed the infrastructure needed to produce the fuel. 

[Chuvvy]

Apocsapel91 wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

And fuel...

You don't need fuel in space. There's no friction, you get to the speed you want and, go. Stopping is the real problem.

[arthurhallam]

wintermaul55 wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

u better believe it... they also have giant pink bunnies and coward pilots who leave the greatest fight to decide the fate of there time to go running away with there commanders girl on a random planet

typical pessimistic response of anybody associated with re-takers 

[arthurhallam]

Slidell505 wrote...

Apocsapel91 wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

And fuel...

You don't need fuel in space. There's no friction, you get to the speed you want and, go. Stopping is the real problem.

i can't count the amount of times i've had to point this out to people. it's getting boring. 

[MyChemicalBromance]

Zix13 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

HeliusCarthaxis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

The Quarians survived for 300 years.

They also had the mass relays to travel between systems to purchase/barter for fuel, food, and other supplies. Did you really even think that reply through?

They grew their own food.

They can transport their own fuel infrastructure.

Manufactories to make refined tools out of raw materials are established.



Fortunately, the ME universe has the explanation technologies necessary.

Really, now?
So its standard issue for Turian, or Asari, or Salarian ships to be outfitted with entire hydroponic facilities, despite the uselessness of such a thing in times when Mass Relays were used? Should we stock them with food? Earth doesn't have the resources anymore to do so, its in VERY bad condition. We couldn't supply the Turians with food anyways. The quarians lending them food? The quarians have difficulty feeding themselves, let alone the entire Turian fleet. This is assuming the quarians are still around following the events of Rannoch.

Where are they going to get these portable facilities? If you haven't noticed, Earth and the Sol system are kind of devastated beyond belief right now. I'm pretty sure the Reapers wouldn't let the He-3 facilities in orbit around our gas planets to survive, so there aren't any available to start towing, despite the logistical problems of that. Build new ones? Nope, Earth and the surrounding planets are crumbling ruins, thus, no production facilities, no mining facilities, nothing.

There are "skimmer" ships in Mass Effect, that can take and use Helium 3 from the upper atmosphere of gas giants. As long as the Reapers didn't eat half the planets in Sol, we're good.

Protip: We don't have any " skimmer" ships in Sol. 

You have the combined fleets of the entire Galaxy. Pirates had skimmer ships. I'm pretty sure they have the tech.

[MyChemicalBromance]

arthurhallam wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Apocsapel91 wrote...

rebo_tfc wrote...

Yeah cos those military ships have enough food for 23 years ....

And fuel...

You don't need fuel in space. There's no friction, you get to the speed you want and, go. Stopping is the real problem.

i can't count the amount of times i've had to point this out to people. it's getting boring. 

If they had just made the Galaxy Map travel visually resemble the Codex entry, there wouldn't be so much confusion.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 08 avril 2012 - 05:31 .

[Actinguy1]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

As long as everyone survived the destruction of the relays...

(Quoted from ME1 Codex)

With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise."

The Milky Way Galaxy is estimated to be 100,000 light-years across.

100,000[ly]/12[ly/day]=8,300[days]

8,300[days]/365=23[years]
Based on this information, it would only take around 23 years to cross the entire galaxy, even without Reaper upgrades. Granted they would have to plot their courses to find discharge points, so it would likely take even longer.

Edit: Add 2 months if you needed to travel all the way through the "thickness" (1000[ly])of the galaxy as well as all the way across the disk

Edit: Earth isn't 50,000[ly] from the core however, it is only 27,000[ly]. Given that it appears no homeworlds are farther than the distance between the Earth and the core (Besides Rannoch), I'll use it as an average.
27,000[ly]/12[ly/day]=2,300[days]

2,300[days]/365=only 6.3[years] And that is without Reaper upgrades. Super-close homeworlds, such as the Salarian homeworld, may only be 2 years away.

The Quarians have the longest journey ironically, (which we can estimate as around 73,000[ly]), but they are also the most well-suited to long distance travel.



But if they did use Reaper tech...
(Quoted from ME3 Codex)

The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period.
Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species' energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.

All they have to do now is explain why destroying the relays didn't kill everyone and you guys can all have your happy endings.


 
Fuel Concerns

In space, there is virtually nothing slowing down matter once it is in motion.

ME2 Marine Physics Rant


So why is fuel consumed in the galaxy map?

(Quoted from ME1 Codex)

Any long-duration interstellar flight consists of two phases: acceleration and deceleration. Starships accelerate to the half-way point of their journey, then flip 180 degrees and apply thrust on the opposite vector, decelerating as they finish the trip. The engines are always operating, and peak speed is attained at the middle of the flight.

Fuel is thus only consumed when attempting to travel as fast as possible, or when making course corrections. Deceleration is needed because you don't want to be moving at 12[ly/day] when you reach your destination.

If we held at "cruising speed," we wouldn't need any fuel at all to move anywhere. Then the problem comes down to discharge and food sources.


Food Concerns

Joker describes vat-grown meat on human ships, implies it is common. (1:21)

That gives an out for Levo-Amino Acids (Everyone except Quarians and Turians)

(Quoted from ME2 Codex)

There are few wide-open spaces in quarian spacecrafts; liveships are the exception. Each ship is a massive hydroponics facility, growing thousands of tons of genetically modified staple crops under artificial light and in highly enriched soil.
The surface of a liveship is studded with docking bays so as many shuttles as possible can distribute the foods throughout the flotilla on a daily basis. When received, the crops are sterilized with radiation, ground up into nutritious paste, and pumped into quarian suits through feeding tubes. In return, waste products are that could be used as fertilizer or compost are returned to the liveships through an efficient (if odorous) recycling program.
Liveships do not hold animals. The quarians consume a vegan diet, driven not by ethics but by practicality. Captive animals require living space, and consume large amounts of water and plant matter. The quarians cannot afford such an inefficient resource-to-calorie ratio, to say nothing of a live animal's disease or allergen potential. As a result, when the flotilla arrives in a star system where life is based on the same dextro-amino acids that the quarians consume, pastes based on animal proteins fetch highly inflated prices, and the vendors are typically mobbed by quarians wanting a new taste sensation. The sickness that often follows these binges is treated much the same way as hangovers are in human culture; painful, but part of the overall experience of excess.

And that covers Dextros.



 
Synthesis
I'm probably going to catch some flak for this, but synthesis kind of solves the other two problems.

1.)It is possible that "Synthesee's" no longer need to eat.
2.)All the races will presumably work together right away, including the Reapers and Geth.
3.)If we can work with the Reapers, then we have 24[ly/day] tech right away.
Maybe it is the best ending

 The Geth
Assuming you picked Control or Synthesis, and saved them on Rannoch, the Geth can't be taken out of the equation. They have a huge fleet that doesn't need to feed it's own population, and could easily house food production facilities. I'm beginning to see how 16 endings may be possible...

I killed all the Quarians back on Rannoch (accidently!) and destroyed their Liveships. Then I apparently killed off the geth with the control ending.  So...yeah.  Some folks are going to go hungry.

[Flextt]

Why do people always justify the trip back to their homeplanets with the Quarians alive as headcanon? Not that you have factual errors, it is possible, yes, though on the other hand, no one cares about the bigger picture^^

[MyChemicalBromance]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

As long as the crucible + catalyst stay to perform space magic (control/synthesis/destroy - one machine for all, including a critical component you didn't know about when building the machine), you needn't bother coming up with scientific explanations for FTL travel. Mass Effect will not be the same any more.

The Mass Relays themselves are space magic. Creating a "Mass Free Corridor" only explains why there are no collisions and potentially why the ships aren't moving 50,000[ly/second] when they exit. It is never explained how a relay "propels" ships.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Actinguy1 wrote...

I killed all the Quarians back on Rannoch (accidently!) and destroyed their Liveships. Then I apparently killed off the geth with the control ending.  So...yeah.  Some folks are going to go hungry.

And thus we have room for 16+ different endings.

[Warrior Craess]

 Problems with this. 

1) regardless of 30LY or 12ly speeds, current ships must stop frequently to discharge Static buildup. For smaller ships the best thing it to land on a planet, for larger one they must discharge into a planets Atmoshphere. 

This means thatt here is no such thing as a straightline approach to anyones planet. if for no other reason than that the relays made exploration of those straightline rather silly.  Are you really going to splot a direction and assume that there is a planet of sufficient mass to discharge into with an entire fleet?   So the path will be connect the dots between known worlds that are accessible. If such a continuous path is even possible. 

2) Design Cruising speed, also known as the optimum cruise speed, is the most efficient speed in terms of distance, speed and fuel usage.  So over a short period you may way to sacrifice efficiency and fuel use for speed. Over a multiple year journey?  it's the same reason marathoners don't  come anywhere close to a 4 minute mile, much less the speeds of a sprinter. (which is faster than 3 minute miles).  Sorry but Cruising speed is the speed at which everyone would be making this journey.

3) with travel times listed in years rather than days or months, who is really going to care whats happening on another sector? Why should Asari care what happens to earth at this point? or to the solarians?  The time differential is too great to overcome.  Also lets not get into the aging differences of FTL travelers.  So there is no more galactic society. 

As a side note though, no one should care if the krograns breed themselves the most massive army of pissed of dinosaurs anymore.   All the above factors are going to limit their aggresive expansion. (if they don't breed themselves into 4th world status - akin to any number of societies that are perpetually starving)

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 08 avril 2012 - 05:58 .

[Kanon777]

Actinguy1 wrote...
I killed all the Quarians back on Rannoch (accidently!) and destroyed their Liveships. Then I apparently killed off the geth with the control ending.  So...yeah.  Some folks are going to go hungry.

Oh no, my choices have consequences? Bioware must fix this immediatly...

[Warrior Craess]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Actinguy1 wrote...

I killed all the Quarians back on Rannoch (accidently!) and destroyed their Liveships. Then I apparently killed off the geth with the control ending.  So...yeah.  Some folks are going to go hungry.

And thus we have room for 16+ different endings.

invalid statement - we have 3 endings. Who survives the endings doesn't change the endings, though it may change the tone of the ending.   Kelly chambers living or dead doesn't qualify as 2 seperate endings. She had no impact on the decisions of the ending. Neither in fact did killing the Geth or Quarrian. It was still possible to get all 3 endings in either case.  

[MyChemicalBromance]

tobito113 wrote...

Actinguy1 wrote...
I killed all the Quarians back on Rannoch (accidently!) and destroyed their Liveships. Then I apparently killed off the geth with the control ending.  So...yeah.  Some folks are going to go hungry.

Oh no, my choices have consequences? Bioware must fix this immediatly...

lol I know right? "Give me consequences* for my actions!"


*But only if they are good ones.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Warrior Craess wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Actinguy1 wrote...

I killed all the Quarians back on Rannoch (accidently!) and destroyed their Liveships. Then I apparently killed off the geth with the control ending.  So...yeah.  Some folks are going to go hungry.

And thus we have room for 16+ different endings.

invalid statement - we have 3 endings. Who survives the endings doesn't change the endings, though it may change the tone of the ending.   Kelly chambers living or dead doesn't qualify as 2 seperate endings. She had no impact on the decisions of the ending. Neither in fact did killing the Geth or Quarrian. It was still possible to get all 3 endings in either case.  

I'm not saying there are 16+ endings right now, but that they could very easily make 16+ endings, with the clarification dlc, that all tie into your decisions, which we now know are not irrelevant.

[Wulfram]

Pandaman102 wrote...

There are too many assumptions to make regarding the survivability of the dextro-based aliens, but one thing is definite: there is no future for Quarians and Turians on Earth, returning to their homeworld is their only option if their soldiers' wish to return to their normal lives.

Turians don't really need to get back to the homeworld, just their nearest colony.  With Geth working on their immune systems, even the Quarians might be able to set up there too.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Nobrandminda wrote...

 Bioware is the one who forgot to do the math.

Various characters in the game (and the codex in multiple places) say that traveling from one part of the galaxy to another without the Mass Relays would take "decades or even centuries."  In the first few minutes of Mass Effect 1, Nihilus goes so far as to say that without the Mass Relays, interseller travel would be impossible.  Elsewhere it is said that 12 lightyears per day is the cruising speed of your standard space ship.  So there are three possibilities:

- The codex (and dialog) is wrong.
- Space travel is trecherious and requires many detours, meaning the practical time to travel from place to place is about five times longer than the theoretical time.
- Bioware just didn't think it through when they decided that 12 LY per day was the speed.

So Weekes' statement is either a retcon, a mistake, or a retcon of a mistake.

Centuries is the issue there. However, that entry may have been written before 12[ly/day] was the norm (In the Galaxy or within Bioware).

Both entries are from ME1.

[Njald]

Don't worry. All you need is one scene or even a line like this: "This is Admiral Hackett to all fleets. The Crucible have failed and I'm ordering an immediate retreat of all present forces. Further orders will follow shortly."
There you go. All forces are at their home worlds discussing how to plan for extinction. In comes Casey and Macs BS author insertion into our schfi with their little Deus Ex singularity discussion and Poof, everyone survives. (except those colonies that weren't self sustaining).

These are not the problems with the endings. The problems is that Shepard is a bystander, that Shepard loses choice and that narrative, theme and gameplay all gets thrown out because Mac'n'Caseycheese are too lazy or too rushed for doing it properly. We can all thank theyr uncreative heads for this mess and leave the details for the crows to pick over while we decide what we will do with the money we aren't going to spend on EA puppets.

Modifié par Njald, 08 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[Zix13]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


There are "skimmer" ships in Mass Effect, that can take and use Helium 3 from the upper atmosphere of gas giants. As long as the Reapers didn't eat half the planets in Sol, we're good.

Protip: We don't have any " skimmer" ships in Sol. 

You have the combined fleets of the entire Galaxy. Pirates had skimmer ships. I'm pretty sure they have the tech.

Skimmer ships are not warships. Thus there are none in Sol. And having the technology does not mean having the resources or time. There are no facilities in place in Sol at the time of the relays destruction for food, fuel, manufacturing, etc. etc. etc. They have maybe 6-8 days before people start starving to death. They have maybe 4 before people start fighting for resources. Earth is a smoking crater. There is no infrastructure intact on the planet. 

Modifié par Zix13, 08 avril 2012 - 06:12 .