550 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
As I say, trying to muddy the waters by bringing in extra factors just obscures the original point of the comparison in the first place.

But comparisons that do not consider actual gameplay are useless.

BW + Energy Drain vs Valiant by itself is a comparison that doesn't consider actual gameplay. Its purely an arbitrary argument that hasn't got any basis in the gameplay itself.

In fact you're more likely to be put into the opposite situation due to the lesser effect on cooldown the Valiant has.

That's the point. You always have powers regardless of which SR you take, so trying to bring them in on one option but not the other is, as you say, useless - precisely why I pointed it out.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 30 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[capn233]

I'll bite. What makes the Valiant so much better than the Black Widow?

Is it the recoil thing? I always get around that on BW by unscoping and rescoping.

As for the energy drain combination, I didn't find that I needed that to use the Black Widow effectively. Cloak or Adrenaline Rush made it ridiculously good, but I ran it on my engineer for a couple missions and it was fine that way too.

[JaegerBane]

capn233 wrote...

I'll bite. What makes the Valiant so much better than the Black Widow?

I'm not totally convinced there is anything that makes it so much better - I'm more inclined to believe that they're equal in raw capability and the choice for the player boils down to which characteristics they prefer. I only picked up on Leon's point because his argument wasn't properly reasoned.

Is it the recoil thing? I always get around that on BW by unscoping and rescoping.

I actually just got used to the reset.

As for the energy drain combination, I didn't find that I needed that to use the Black Widow effectively. Cloak or Adrenaline Rush made it ridiculously good, but I ran it on my engineer for a couple missions and it was fine that way too.

You don't need it for the BW to be effective - you just need ED to make one-shots of anything shielded. Leon's argument was that the BW had some major advantage when it came to 1S1K when, in fact, it can only do that on the same enemies the Valiant can one-shot too - anything more requires ED.

Personally, the BW is my choice, but that's because I carry the Paladin too, which is largely equivalent to the Valiant at shorter ranges.

[capn233]

Black Widow theoretically would have a marginal advantage in one-shotting low tiered enemies due to extra damage per shot. But again without looking at the numbers it is difficult to see if this translates into an actual advantage. Quantized damage and discreet health and all.

Interestingly, his argument for Black Widow may be similar to arguments I have heard for Wraith or Paladin...

Modifié par capn233, 30 avril 2012 - 08:08 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

BW + Energy Drain vs Valiant by itself is a comparison that doesn't consider actual gameplay. Its purely an arbitrary argument that hasn't got any basis in the gameplay itself.

I did not come up with the BW+ED example. I actually agreed with you that it should not be considered. However, I did write that you have to consider squad powers, because you always have a squad with you in combat.

[capn233]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

BW + Energy Drain vs Valiant by itself is a comparison that doesn't consider actual gameplay. Its purely an arbitrary argument that hasn't got any basis in the gameplay itself.

I did not come up with the BW+ED example. I actually agreed with you that it should not be considered. However, I did write that you have to consider squad powers, because you always have a squad with you in combat.

You could always have Energy Drain on Shepard after your first game as well

[Kronner]

capn233 wrote...
You could always have Energy Drain on Shepard after your first game as well

Sure, and I actually think it is the best BP for Infiltrator, but "not everyone uses it", whereas the squad is with you regardless 

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

BW + Energy Drain vs Valiant by itself is a comparison that doesn't consider actual gameplay. Its purely an arbitrary argument that hasn't got any basis in the gameplay itself.

I did not come up with the BW+ED example. I actually agreed with you that it should not be considered. However, I did write that you have to consider squad powers, because you always have a squad with you in combat.

No, I know, I wasn't saying you did - my point was purely that creating lop sided comparisons doesn't actually mean anything. I only quoted your post because it sounded like you were claiming that not including powers in the comparison meant any comparison was useless, which wasn't what I was arguing - I was just saying that including powers is only worthwhile if you're going to include them on both sides of the comparison.

[Leon Zweihander]

I included ED as an example of an ability that makes defenses moot, and because realistically most builds will use powers/bonus powers that complements sniper rifles. Otherwise you're just not utilizing snipers to their full potential, imo. I've tested BW more times than I have the Valiant, and have come to agree with JaegerBane on the fact that BW outpaces Valiant on grunts, but only after I have found it can do bodyshot kills. BW's bodyshot kills > Valiant's faster reload/fire rate, it's that simple; there's just no way the Valiant can keep pace.

[Dieb]

Ever since ME2 it's just the Widow that stuck with my shep as his "signature weapon" (even though it's rather Legion's). The very fact that it is a single shot rifle with painfully long reload time is what makes the fun of it. Same reason I also do not use the concentration mod (scope + thermal clip instead). I like the challenge of carefully placing every single shot - if you catch a tiger by the tail, don't fail.

As with squadmates, I believe it is really just a matter of personal taste and style. There are somewhat beneficial combinations, but thank god there is no such heavy emphasis on "the perfect build/skillset/party for class/race/level" in this game.


The BW to me is redundant, regarding the efforts to get it, and the simple fact that the Viper (yes) does the trick just as good. If you really aim. Ask Garrus.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 30 avril 2012 - 11:52 .

[JaegerBane]

Leon Zweihander wrote...

I included ED as an example of an ability that makes defenses moot, and because realistically most builds will use powers/bonus powers that complements sniper rifles. Otherwise you're just not utilizing snipers to their full potential, imo.

My issue wasn't really that you brought ED into the equation - it was more that your brought it in as an excuse to ignore the BW's main disadvantage, but didn't do the same for the Valiant. You keep saying that the Valiant 'can't keep up the pace' but if we're going down the powers route, taking Stasis both increases damage and makes headshots child's play, so if pace was actually your concern, the Valiant would close that gap pretty quickly if you do what you did with the BW and bring in powers tailored to address their weaknesses. The damage the BW does is significant but its DPS is actually significantly lower - in the time it takes to fire three BW rounds, you could have fired 7 Valiant rounds. That's a race that the BW is not going to win if it goes on beyond three enemies.

In fact, the whole powers thing is really not something that sits in the BW's favour, as using that weapon will reduce your cooldowns.

This is basically my point - I personally see both rifles as roughly equal in the grand scheme of things, and the BW has slowly but surely won me over as my preferred SR after getting rid of weight mechanics, but it isn't helping anyone by coming up with unfair comparisons, as they're meaningless.

[Rudy Lis]

Well, I've been playing with Indra recently, testing different ammo, mods, etc, also tested other SR for comparison (BW, W and Valiant, to be more specific) and so far I have quite hilarious results, actually. Not sure why's that - because I had to beat game twice to got access to X weapon from beginning and those two ending sessions made quite a blow on my sanity, psychic and morale integrity, or because of some other reason.
Those results, however, are true only for soldier, who relied mostly on guns, not abilities (though I tested few as well). I don't want to say these results are 100% true and correct, since I used same approach for all of my consecutive playthroughs but even there - targets weren't static, so I couldn't repeat my actions with 100% "authenticity".

[capn233]

JaegerBane wrote...
The damage the BW does is significant but its DPS is actually significantly lower - in the time it takes to fire three BW rounds, you could have fired 7 Valiant rounds. That's a race that the BW is not going to win if it goes on beyond three enemies.

Hmmm

The Val has a ROF of 100, BW is 60.  It only takes 2 seconds to fire three BW shots if the first is at time zero, or 4 shots with the Val.

But Val does have less recoil and faster reload.  That is an acceptable trade for doing about 60% the damage per shot as the BW.  At least the BW is more ammo efficient.

Modifié par capn233, 03 mai 2012 - 01:17 .

[Rudy Lis]

Regarding ammo efficiency.
Here are some numbers I've gathered. Most of them are "arithmetic mean range" gathered for 3 consequtive playthroughs and repeatitive playthroughs of some specific moments.
Common elements for tests: Cerberus armor, all ammo powers evolved via squad/30% spare. Tested both versions of 6th step of ammo evolution. Weapons and mods were maximum level available - V, VII or X (mostly).
Proving grounds - Mars, Lesuss, Gellix, N7 missions. Various story mission, if situation allowed (Eden Prime, Citadel coup).
I tested all ammo variants, brushed off CA and DA, because it either I royally sucks with them, or their raw damage sucks. Could be both, of course.
Sorry, if I offended your feelings.

Banshee.
With stripped barrier - armour only.

IA.
Widow - 7-8.
BW - 10-12.
Valiant - 15-17.
Indra - 85-90.

AP.
Widow - 8-9.
BW - 12-15.
Valiant - 15-20.
Indra - 125-150.

WA.
Widow - 9-10.
BW - 11-14.
Valiant - 18-21.
Indra - 180-200.

Regarding OSOK.
Without full HK armor set and/or Barrel+Concetration mod, W, BW (HK required), J do not deliver OSOK on body or extremities shots on CAT or Cannibal, so headshot required.
Valiant with Cerberus armour but without  Barrel+Concetration mod do not deliver OSOK even with headshots for Cannibals, but do that for CAT and, in case of slot shot - Guardian. Two headshots from Valiant are enough to dispose of Engineer or Centurion.

Gathering and sorting out additional info on other types of enemies now, if someone is interested, I will list it later.
General info on Indra.
AP/IA (any of 6th step variants) - generally destroy Atlas' armour in 4 mags (each mag strips 3 bars of armour or so.
CAT is killed via 5 headshots or ~10 body shots.
Centurion, Guardian (with AP ammo or mod), Engineer, Marauder - with 1 mag of bodyshots. Guardian could be killed via 10 more or less careful slot shots.
Cannibal - 7-8 careful "near headshots" or 11-13 of body shots (generally 2 Cannibals from 1 mag).
Ravager - 1.5-2 mags.
Nemesis and Phantom, under Stasis wiped out via 2 mags, or with Overload/Energy drain with one mag (IAE preferable for AoE and generally for "afterburn"), but really - GPS makes bringing knives to gunfight obsolete much better.
Calculating proper number for Brutes and Harvesters a little bit more difficult due presense of teammates there, but generally 4-5 mags are enough.
On Menae, in Victus camp, I was able to destroy brutes before they crossed place where Blackstar located. No other rifle, even Valiant allowed me to do that. Well, maybe I royally suck with other guns, can be.

Numbers on Geth are under processing now, but generally they lie within ranges stated above.

[capn233]

No Javelin?

Maybe DA's raw damage isn't all that great, but it is nice for when a target started to regenerate some small amount of shields so you don't waste yet another shot or an ability.

[Kanaris]

 I like the Javelin it's more or less a Mega powered water gun if you read it's description.
It's kind of a slap in the face to your enemies they were just killed by WATER. 

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

No Javelin?

Hey, I only got insomnia, not 47 hours in day.
Plus, I mentioned it. I wasn't able to inflict OSOK on body/extremities shot on Cannibals, for example.

capn233 wrote...

Maybe DA's raw damage isn't all that great, but it is nice for when a target started to regenerate some small amount of shields so you don't waste yet another shot or an ability.

That's Valiant for - kill enemy before he'll regenerate.
Plus, I generally slap DA for SMG, since I use them for shield/barrier stripping anyway.

Kanaris wrote...

I like the Javelin it's more or less a Mega powered water gun if you read it's description.
It's kind of a slap in the face to your enemies they were just killed by WATER.

Not water, but ferrofluid.

[Kanaris]

you got me there but they are still getting killed by liquid

[Jog0907]

Kanaris wrote...

you got me there but they are still getting killed by liquid

incredibly hot liquid traveling at insanely fast speeds that can penetrate trough most things

[Kanaris]

Jog0907 wrote...

Kanaris wrote...

you got me there but they are still getting killed by liquid

incredibly hot liquid traveling at insanely fast speeds that can penetrate trough most things

Yep I love the Javelin I wish you could get it earlier then the Admiral Koris mission but sadly it's a geth weapon second playthroughs FTW 

[PlatonicWaffles]

Valiant or Black Widow.

[Rudy Lis]

Small update on Brutes. Numbers are even more approximate, since it's hard to hide teammates there.
Same conditions as before.

IA.
Widow - 4-5.
BW - 6-7.
Valiant - ~12.
Indra - ~50.

AP.
Widow - 4-5.
BW - 6-7.
Valiant - ~15.
Indra - ~75.

[capn233]

Rudy Lis wrote...
Hey, I only got insomnia, not 47 hours in day.
Plus, I mentioned it. I wasn't able to inflict OSOK on body/extremities shot on Cannibals, for example.
 

True enough. Basically in SP it is weaker than the Widow anyway (opposite of in MP) so if a Widow can't do it the Javelin won't.  But it does get innate "1m" cover penetration and a free enhanced scope.

I like it just because it has "character," which includes it's crappy trigger.  Black Widow and Valiant are much more effective though.

Modifié par capn233, 03 mai 2012 - 06:41 .