550 réponses à ce sujet

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

True enough. Basically in SP it is weaker than the Widow anyway (opposite of in MP) so if a Widow can't do it the Javelin won't.  But it does get innate "1m" cover penetration and a free enhanced scope.

I like it just because it has "character," which includes it's crappy trigger.  Black Widow and Valiant are much more effective though.

My only pet peeve with this rifle is trigger "mechanism". IMHO firing should occur on releasing LMB, not "tad after pressing it".

Regarding penetration - well, after about 5 games with AP>Penetration modded ammo, I think there are coded issues with penetration, since more than once I've seen how relatively thin cover (like those ME2 style "pop-up" cover plates (now they not moving, though)) blocked my shots - and that with Javelin (or W/BW), AP mod and AP ammo. Maybe it was fixed with latest patch (or whatever it was there April, 30 - May, 1; one and only thing I noticed, was purple Liara), don't know.

[capn233]

Interesting. It could be map design though. I think occasionally there are invisible objects that block shots, although I notice this more in certain MP maps than SP.

The thin plates are one of the few things that I seem to reliably penetrate in game with any of them, although I have much more time behind the Mantis w/ mod or the Black Widow than the Widow or Javelin.  I probably have comparable time behind a Viper w/ penetration as compared to the last two. But I very rarely am stacking AP ammo on top of penetration mods, except for on Garrus's rifle. It's pretty funny to see the streak come from off screen and go straight through an enemy I was targeting and keep whizzing on.

I think somebody else thought that the Widow penetration numbers weren't working right and that the penetration mod decreased it's value, but I can't remember if that was supposed to be in MP or SP. However, I have to take some of the MP knowledge with a grain of salt since I have heard 3 different things that supposedly occur when you put a smart choke on a GPS, and two are not consistent with my own experience.

Modifié par capn233, 03 mai 2012 - 07:32 .

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

Interesting. It could be map design though. I think occasionally there are invisible objects that block shots, although I notice this more in certain MP maps than SP.

I don't play multiplayer, but yes, some of those things occured on N7 missions and if those maps used "as is" in SP and MP, that could be map-maker decision.

capn233 wrote...

The thin plates are one of the few things that I seem to reliably penetrate in game with any other them. But I very rarely am stacking AP ammo on top of penetration mods, except for on Garrus's rifle. It's pretty funny to see the streak come from off screen and go straight through an enemy I was targeting and keep whizzing on.

It was one of the reasons why I switched from IA to AP, yes, it is less powerful (though numbers shows +21% damage to health and armour on both of them), but sometime it was pure fun to piercing enemies through in rows. Well, technically columns, don't remember where we actually flank enemy, only if in London, when we assisted one company which was "pinned down".

capn233 wrote...

I think somebody else thought that the Widow penetration numbers weren't working right and that the penetration mod decreased it's value, but I can't remember if that was supposed to be in MP or SP. However, I have to take some of the MP knowledge with a grain of salt since I have heard 3 different things that supposedly occur when you put a smart choke on a GPS, and two are not consistent with my own experience.

That's why I put those testings in first place. I saw that table with numbers, but something telling me they are "detached" from reality, so I decided to test and evaluate things personally. Should we have proper gun range, with adjustible targets (if not visually, then at least with Shield/Armour/Barrier/Health equal to existing targets, but I really see no reason why we should have visually identical targets, given EDI supreme powers), I could be done faster and more accurately. And without two mandatory evil casper visits.

[capn233]

Rudy Lis wrote...

That's why I put those testings in first place. I saw that table with numbers, but something telling me they are "detached" from reality, so I decided to test and evaluate things personally. Should we have proper gun range, with adjustible targets (if not visually, then at least with Shield/Armour/Barrier/Health equal to existing targets, but I really see no reason why we should have visually identical targets, given EDI supreme powers), I could be done faster and more accurately. And without two mandatory evil casper visits.

I can't quote the numbers for all of them, but BW is I think 60 and Javelin is 100, with Widow in the middle around 75 maybe.  In theory these are game centimeters.  I think they do calculate it along the shot's vector though, so oblique angles will make the object appear "thicker" (which is realistic).

Most of the time to me it seems pretty close to what would be a real distance, but it is hard to tell.  I can't pick up a measuring tape at Elkoss Combine even though I know they carry them...

Modifié par capn233, 03 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

I can't quote the numbers for all of them, but BW is I think 60 and Javelin is 100, with Widow in the middle around 75 maybe.  In theory these are game centimeters.  I think they do calculate it along the shot's vector though, so oblique angles will make the object appear "thicker" (which is realistic).

Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe because ME modding is not that user-friendly as OFP/ArmA was/is, but like I said, some of cover seems to be impenetrable even for AP ammo/mod. Yet, not all of it - for example on Menae, in Victus camp, on right hand side, near place where Blackstar is, there is stack of, not sure what it is - containers, barrels - something, where Marauders like to hide. That cover is easily penetrated by AP mod V (SR or AR, doesn't matter) or AP ammo. Or both.

capn233 wrote...

Most of the time to me it seems pretty close to what would be a real distance, but it is hard to tell.  I can't pick up a measuring tape at Elkoss Combine even though I know they carry them...

There are ways to measure sizes even without tape.  Not sure it is really needed, though, since thinnest cover (glass, Guardian shields) generally pierced with AP mod I.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


IA.
Widow - 7-8.
BW - 10-12.
Valiant - 15-17.
Indra - 85-90.

AP.
Widow - 8-9.
BW - 12-15.
Valiant - 15-20.
Indra - 125-150.

WA.
Widow - 9-10.
BW - 11-14.
Valiant - 18-21.
Indra - 180-200. 

If you don't take into account moving targets - thus eliminating the time it takes to acquire/reacquire them - what weapon did achieve that (reducing the same target/same(?) conditions/reload time included) in the least amount of time?
The Widow obviously is at a disavantage because of its bolt action and the necessity to take the eye of the scope to load a new therm clip after each shot - although, unless you move around, there isn't really a need to reajust(i'm still going with the assumption that targets are fixed); between the BW, the Valiant and the Indra, wich one, according to you, felt more accurate - muzzle raize due to a high rate of fire(even though we're talking semi-auto) will certainly factor into you approximation, as you'd have to naturally reacquire your target with the less accurate of those guns.  

Modifié par SaturnRing, 04 mai 2012 - 01:04 .

[dr888]

Valiant for Infiltrator on Insanity: 3x 1s1k (for unshielded Cerberus), 2 headshots for Marauders/Centurions, even without Disruptor ammo, and on lvl V.
Mantis V for Soldier: 1s1k -> Adr.Rush (auto reload) ->1s1k.
Black widow is too heavy for my taste

[Rudy Lis]

Hello, SaturnRing. Nice to see fellow enthusiast.

SaturnRing wrote...

If you don't take into account moving targets - thus eliminating the time it takes to acquire/reacquire them - what weapon did achieve that (reducing the same target/same(?) conditions/reload time included) in the least amount of time?

Well, I cannot not to take moving targets into account, because, they, well, move, unless we talk about Turret or slowpoking Atlas.

But by my runs, with IA, especially IEA, Indra is fastest, then Valiant.  With AP ammo gap between them and between single-shot rifles and those semi-autos' is shortening. With WA it's even closer. I didn't tested CA and DA on Banshee and on small game (CAT, Cannibals) those ammo types proves themselves less effective. (i.e. single-shot guns could kill them faster, actually).

"Practical" RoF for Indra:
For 6 seconds she can fire ~38 shots (between 35 and 40): 25>R>13.
For 15 seconds, she can fire ~85 shots: 25>R>25>R>25>R>10.

But during "life fire exercise", it's a bit easier to correct Indra's tracers and thus hits, plus 4X scope is actually an advantage on shorter ranges - you don't have to unzoom to find where your target moved.

After my previous post in this thread, I tried to replay Menae, it seems possible to dispose Brutes with Valiant before they cross that "Blackstar line", but dealing with Marauders requires more time and precision. Indra is somewhat more forgiving with that, even without IEA.

SaturnRing wrote...

The Widow obviously is at a disavantage because of its bolt action and the necessity to take the eye of the scope to load a new therm clip after each shot - although, unless you move around, there isn't really a need to reajust(i'm still going with the assumption that targets are fixed);

Well, you probably saw my "practical RoF" comparison from page 11, so it's safe to say any single-shot rifle is off.
Taking eye off the scope has little to do with it - you still have to do that with any rifle, but "big guns" sort of less dependable on ammo, armour and mods, yet even there it is important to deliver headshot. For example in "naked" state (no ammo, mods and armour bonuses), Valiant is unable to perform OSOK with one headshot (two needed), Indra takes around 30 bodyshots or 12 headshots and W/BW actually could kill enemy via one headshot.

SaturnRing wrote...

between the BW, the Valiant and the Indra, wich one, according to you, felt more accurate - muzzle raize due to a high rate of fire(even though we're talking semi-auto) will certainly factor into you approximation, as you'd have to naturally reacquire your target with the less accurate of those guns.  

Good question.
I say "technically" all SR have similar spread, while horizontal part of spread is easier to notice. Also, they all return to point of aim (relatively to previously mentioned horizontal "sway") for next shot.
There are three exceptions of this "rule": Raptor, Indra and Valiant.
Raptor is just less accurate then the rest - on thirty metres it has spread around human-size chest. It is possible to land some of them into head, but it's quite challenging. So I'd say it's bodyshot weapon.

Indra and Valiant has one thing in common - they are only two SR that have not just muzzle flip (and subsequent return to line of sight) but constant muzzle climb, i.e. their "new" point of aim will be higher. For Valiant that climb at 50 metres is equal to distance between crosshair and small tick mark/dot on vertical line below crosshair. There are three those dots on each sides from crosshair, six in total. For Indra that climb is half of that distance. For one shot, of course - whole mag will rise Indra's barrel quite high (not as high as Hurricane, of course).
Also, when fired in full-auto, Indra got quite a spread. I'd say it's a bit more "tight" than Raptor's, but somewhat "more consistent", i.e. less random.

So if I had to choose rifle suiting my needs - it will be Valiant. He's not "surgically" accurate (there still spread), so I'd say "practically" accurate - almost like ME1 SR, PoA=PoI (relatively) so all misses I "scored" with Valiant are my and only my fault. Quite easy to check on shielded enemies, like Centurions, Engineers or Marauders.
Don't get me wrong - almost any other rifle will allow you to lend shot of same accuracy, but that's combination of acceptable climb, very good RoF, both cyclic, combat and practical.

Indra is just pure fun to use - she still quite accurate, if you'll able to squeeze single shot from single LMB click, because full-auto just adds spread and I'd say quite significant spread.
Also Indra has 4X scope, not 6X, but I'd say it's advantage - you still can aim into Banshee belly or chest or that spine area of Brute, even on large distance (though in London during that "SCUD defense" scene it's a bit harder to lay accurate full auto fire on those distances, but semi-auto will save the day), yet it is huge advantage on shorter ranges.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 04 mai 2012 - 02:35 .

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Good question.
I say "technically" all SR have similar spread, while horizontal part of spread is easier to notice. Also, they all return to point of aim (relatively to previously mentioned horizontal "sway") for next shot.
There are three exceptions of this "rule": Raptor, Indra and Valiant.
Raptor is just less accurate then the rest - on thirty metres it has spread around human-size chest. It is possible to land some of them into head, but it's quite challenging. So I'd say it's bodyshot weapon.

Indra and Valiant has one thing in common - they are only two SR that have not just muzzle flip (and subsequent return to line of sight) but constant muzzle climb, i.e. their "new" point of aim will be higher. For Valiant that climb at 50 metres is equal to distance between crosshair and small tick mark/dot on vertical line below crosshair. There are three those dots on each sides from crosshair, six in total. For Indra that climb is half of that distance. For one shot, of course - whole mag will rise Indra's barrel quite high (not as high as Hurricane, of course).
Also, when fired in full-auto, Indra got quite a spread. I'd say it's a bit more "tight" than Raptor's, but somewhat "more consistent", i.e. less random.

So if I had to choose rifle suiting my needs - it will be Valiant. He's not "surgically" accurate (there still spread), so I'd say "practically" accurate - almost like ME1 SR, PoA=PoI (relatively) so all misses I "scored" with Valiant are my and only my fault. Quite easy to check on shielded enemies, like Centurions, Engineers or Marauders.
Don't get me wrong - almost any other rifle will allow you to lend shot of same accuracy, but that's combination of acceptable climb, very good RoF, both cyclic, combat and practical.

Indra is just pure fun to use - she still quite accurate, if you'll able to squeeze single shot from single LMB click, because full-auto just adds spread and I'd say quite significant spread.
Also Indra has 4X scope, not 6X, but I'd say it's advantage - you still can aim into Banshee belly or chest or that spine area of Brute, even on large distance (though in London during that "SCUD defense" scene it's a bit harder to lay accurate full auto fire on those distances, but semi-auto will save the day), yet it is huge advantage on shorter ranges.

Nice to be here.
Almost instinctively i came to adopt that approach of aiming at the center mass, and let spread and muzzle flip work they way to the head. And then reacquire center mass...I found that the Raptor gives me more flexibility as well as a x6 optic generally speaking. Then again if don't have the Indra or the Valiant. Yet.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 04 mai 2012 - 03:40 .

[Kanaris]

The Valiant is ok but it's rate of fire could be higher I'm using it on My infiltrator right now least till I get my Raptor.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

Nice to be here.

Likewise.

SaturnRing wrote...

Almost instinctively i came to adopt that approach of aiming at the center mass, and let spread and muzzle flip work they way to the head. And then reacquire center mass...

Incirsor experience, I guess. One and only rifle I didn't mention for obvious reason - burst is murdered in game. It has a way too big flip and climb together. Could be used with IEA, though. Quite funny in this combo.

SaturnRing wrote...

I found that the Raptor gives me more flexibility as well as a x6 optic generally speaking. .

Raptor doesn't have 6X optic.
Strange. I just checked images and it seems pistol, SMG, AR, Raptor and Indra scopes are 3.6X, while rest SR scopes are 8.2X. Yes, I just used scale-to-screen method.

SaturnRing wrote...

Then again if don't have the Indra or the Valiant. Yet.

Erhm... You mean you play on console and have "non-CE" edition?

[Kanaris]

The Valiant comes with the DDE wasn't the Indra a Pre-Order or Alienware promo weapon?

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Incirsor experience, I guess. One and only rifle I didn't mention for obvious reason - burst is murdered in game. It has a way too big flip and climb together. Could be used with IEA, though. Quite funny in this combo.

That's exactly the gun i was refering to. Synonymous to lost potential.

Raptor doesn't have 6X optic.
Strange. I just checked images and it seems pistol, SMG, AR, Raptor and Indra scopes are 3.6X, while rest SR scopes are 8.2X. Yes, I just used scale-to-screen method.

I use openings(doors, windows)/human proportions ratio for distances/scopes...hmm.

Erhm... You mean you play on console and have "non-CE" edition?

Yep. Splinter Cell "Chaos Theory" last vestige.

[Rudy Lis]

Kanaris wrote...

The Valiant comes with the DDE wasn't the Indra a Pre-Order or Alienware promo weapon?

Well, Valiant is part of DDE, that's for sure - I have one. Indra from Alienware.

SaturnRing wrote...

That's exactly the gun i was refering to. Synonymous to lost potential.

Vindicator suffered more, IMHO. But I haven't played with Incirsor much in ME2 - I borrowed friend's game once. Still like old Viper, which is new Valiant, basically.

SaturnRing wrote...

I use openings(doors, windows)/human proportions ratio for distances/scopes...hmm.

Likewise. But you still need to compare them somehow - be that pixels in paint or millimetres on scale.

SaturnRing wrote...

Yep. Splinter Cell "Chaos Theory" last vestige.

They have Chaos Theory on PC too!
But I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. I almost bought Xbox for myself, but before that tried to play at friend's home - seems after service I can't use gamepad for long periods of time, 15 minutes, tops.
Pity - I like Halo series.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

That's exactly the gun i was refering to. Synonymous to lost potential.

Vindicator suffered more, IMHO. But I haven't played with Incirsor much in ME2 - I borrowed friend's game once. Still like old Viper, which is new Valiant, basically.

Interesting. i thought the Viper was the most balanced SR in ME2. How many shots does a thermal mag(for the Valiant) allow? 

Modifié par SaturnRing, 05 mai 2012 - 01:03 .

[Jon The Wizard]

I don't use sniper rifles because I'm terrible, I leave those to Garrus or god-help-me Ashley (on a playthrough where I didn't nuke her speciesist backside).  If I do, though, I bring along the N7 Valiant or Widow.  Widow because I bought the No-Collectors-Included Collector's Edition and I am downright determined to get my money out of it and the Widow because it's not a point-and-shoot weapon, it's a point-and-kill weapon.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

Interesting. i thought the Viper was the most balanced SR in ME2.

He was. Not anymore in ME3 - RoF is too slow, mag capacity halved, damage sucks.

SaturnRing wrote...

How many shots does a thermal mag(for the Valiant) allow? 

3.
Viper now has 6, but, like I said - his RoF is horrible:
For 6 seconds he can make 6 shots and reload (I'd say seventh shot hit right after timesplit): 6>R.
For 15 seconds he can make 16 shots: 6>R>6>R>4.
And damage is quite low - maybe I royally sucked with it, but I wasn't able to deliver OSOK with headshot on Cannibal (3 health bar remained) or CAT (1 health bar remained). Centurions' and Engineers' shields also required two shots to take them down even for headshots (leaving same 1 bar after first hit). 

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...

3.
Viper now has 6, but, like I said - his RoF is horrible:
For 6 seconds he can make 6 shots and reload (I'd say seventh shot hit right after timesplit): 6>R.
For 15 seconds he can make 16 shots: 6>R>6>R>4.
And damage is quite low - maybe I royally sucked with it, but I wasn't able to deliver OSOK with headshot on Cannibal (3 health bar remained) or CAT (1 health bar remained). Centurions' and Engineers' shields also required two shots to take them down even for headshots (leaving same 1 bar after first hit). 

IIRC the figures work out as the Viper doing 50% less damage per shot at roughly the same RoF. It really isn't worthwhile.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

IIRC the figures work out as the Viper doing 50% less damage per shot at roughly the same RoF. It really isn't worthwhile.

50% less damage relative of what?
I didn't test it on big-game, really (well, tested, but only couple of times, not more then a two dozen as with other rifles), so I can't tell how it'll perform on long run of removing chips, so to speak.
But it's RoF plainly sucks.

Minor update.
Just checked on my records - with IEA it took 24/26 shots from Viper X with Concentration + Barrel to chip away Banshee's armour. Like I said, I did it only two times - had 24 and 26 shots respectively.
But it took a helluva time to make those run and I probably never ever ran that much (it was on Lesuss).

Dig out few more numbers.
Raptor did same faster, I'd say third fast after Indra and Valiant (again, two runs with IEA only) - 73/75 shots.
For 6 seconds Raptor is capable to make ~30 shots: 15>R>15.
For 15 seconds Raptor is capable to make ~71 shot: 15>R>15>R>15>R>15>R>11.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 05 mai 2012 - 04:12 .

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
50% less damage relative of what?

Valiant. I can't check the SP figures as the spreadsheet has been updated with MP stuff, and I've no idea if its changed.

I didn't test it on big-game, really (well, tested, but only couple of times, not more then a two dozen as with other rifles), so I can't tell how it'll perform on long run of removing chips, so to speak.
But it's RoF plainly sucks.

Minor update.
Just checked on my records - with IEA it took 24/26 shots from Viper X with Concentration + Barrel to chip away Banshee's armour. Like I said, I did it only two times - had 24 and 26 shots respectively.
But it took a helluva time to make those run and I probably never ever ran that much (it was on Lesuss).

I honestly don't understand what the actual purpose of the Viper is, now. Its description implies it hasn't changed from ME2 but in-game, its prior niche has been taken by the Raptor and its had its fire rate slowed down.... but there's rifles that do that particular role *vastly* better.

I mean, seriously, 24 shots? What's the point in a high calibre rifle that takes *that* much time to take down a hard target?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 mai 2012 - 04:19 .

[capn233]

The Indra...

I just took it on the Palaven mission but on that one you don't have SR Piercing yet, and to top it off my character didn't have maxed Incendiary. So it was absolutely pitiful against the Brutes at the end. Although if my Blackstar didn't screw me I wouldn't have had to shoot them at all

The Viper's spec's were screwed up because they decided to take the ME2 Viper and separate it into the Raptor and the Valiant. Then they made a new crappy rifle that looks like an ME2 Viper and called it Viper just to mess with people. I just don't know why they made the ROF so low. It is semi-decent against standard enemies if you get all headshots. It is even not too terrible against warp debuff'ed Brutes if you have Ext Barrel and SR Piercing. But there are much better choices from mid-tier enemies on up.

[JaegerBane]

capn233 wrote...
The Viper's spec's were screwed up because they decided to take the ME2 Viper and separate it into the Raptor and the Valiant. Then they made a new crappy rifle that looks like an ME2 Viper and called it Viper just to mess with people. I just don't know why they made the ROF so low. It is semi-decent against standard enemies if you get all headshots. It is even not too terrible against warp debuff'ed Brutes if you have Ext Barrel and SR Piercing. But there are much better choices from mid-tier enemies on up.

I have a feeling the Viper was balanced purely against the rifles available in the base game. If you assume the Valiant didn't exist then it isn't that bad a sniper rifle, for what it is - a closer equivalent to a real-world battle rifle.

Where it kind of falls apart is that the Valiant fits the same role but does it way better, while the BW, in modifying the orginal design of the Widow to make it more flexible, has the effect of moving onto the Viper's new patch by accident. And then, of course, we have powerful long-range pistols like the Carnifex and Paladin getting access to scopes, along with the sniper-orientated AR in the Saber. Hence you have three rifles and two pistols that are just better choices when considering the new Viper's role.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 mai 2012 - 04:51 .

[SaturnRing]

JaegerBane wrote...

I honestly don't understand what the actual purpose of the Viper is, now. Its description implies it hasn't changed from ME2 but in-game, its prior niche has been taken by the Raptor and its had its fire rate slowed down.... but there's rifles that do that particular role *vastly* better.

I mean, seriously, 24 shots? What's the point in a high calibre rifle that takes *that* much time to take down a hard target?

I couldn't agree more. It's trigger mechanism notably would be best fitted for a heavy duty high caliber SR. So with the Viper, you basically get a less user friendly trigger without the destructive power to go with it. 

[SaturnRing]

JaegerBane wrote...

I have a feeling the Viper was balanced purely against the rifles available in the base game. If you assume the Valiant didn't exist then it isn't that bad a sniper rifle, for what it is - a closer equivalent to a real-world battle rifle.

Where it kind of falls apart is that the Valiant fits the same role but does it way better, while the BW, in modifying the orginal design of the Widow to make it more flexible, has the effect of moving onto the Viper's new patch by accident. And then, of course, we have powerful long-range pistols like the Carnifex and Paladin getting access to scopes, along with the sniper-orientated AR in the Saber. Hence you have three rifles and two pistols that are just better choices when considering the new Viper's role.

From its description, I was expecting the Raptor to fit in that role. It kinda does...but delivering more kinetic energy down range would have made it the perfect fit.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

Valiant. I can't check the SP figures as the spreadsheet has been updated with MP stuff, and I've no idea if its changed.

Well, according to my tests it's not 50% - I never was able to took down Banshee in 12 shots from Valiant. But that's not that important really, since it's pretty close to it.

JaegerBane wrote...

I honestly don't understand what the actual purpose of the Viper is, now. Its description implies it hasn't changed from ME2 but in-game, its prior niche has been taken by the Raptor and its had its fire rate slowed down.... but there's rifles that do that particular role *vastly* better.

Well, I think Raptor is a bit weaker - I'd say Raptor is compromise between Mattock and Viper, especially after they slap a spread on ME3 Mattock (what, really, worse than AK?). And cut some Mattock's damage down.

JaegerBane wrote...

I mean, seriously, 24 shots? What's the point in a high calibre rifle that takes *that* much time to take down a hard target?

It doesn't feel like it's high-calibre rifle at all. I don't even know what analogy to find. Gun designed to train future Widow riflemen, where 90% of power redirected to recoil and only 10% right to shot? 
Should it be more powerful than Valiant - fine, I'd agree with such RoF, at least from "balance" point of view. Should it have Raptor-alike RoF with existing power (maybe not as fast, but faster than it is now) and higher mag capacity - again, I'd agree to that. But with existing form? 
I'd say "Viper: Avatar of Wrong" - "guide how not to make sniper rifle".

capn233 wrote...

The Indra...

I just took it on the Palaven mission but on that one you don't have SR Piercing yet, and to top it off my character didn't have maxed Incendiary. So it was absolutely pitiful against the Brutes at the end. Although if my Blackstar didn't screw me I wouldn't have had to shoot them at all

Can you specify skills/weapons layout?
I just don't remember any problems even with Indra I. But maybe it's karma - I really love that rifle. Recently managed to take down Banshee's armour with 74 rounds, which is now my new record.

capn233 wrote...

The Viper's spec's were screwed up because they decided to take the ME2 Viper and separate it into the Raptor and the Valiant. Then they made a new crappy rifle that looks like an ME2 Viper and called it Viper just to mess with people. I just don't know why they made the ROF so low. It is semi-decent against standard enemies if you get all headshots. It is even not too terrible against warp debuff'ed Brutes if you have Ext Barrel and SR Piercing. But there are much better choices from mid-tier enemies on up.

I don't know, I think Viper just worst rifle out there on any serious difficulty. IIRC with HK armour kit + recon hood it can OSOK CATs on headshots (but not Cannibals), alas, that RoF murdered rifle totally - now Viper is like that Soviet Shovel-Mortar - not mortar, not shovel. I mean it could shoot and dig, but there are tools making those jobs better. Sad.

JaegerBane wrote...

I have a feeling the Viper was balanced purely against the rifles available in the base game. If you assume the Valiant didn't exist then it isn't that bad a sniper rifle, for what it is - a closer equivalent to a real-world battle rifle.

Well, after ME3 "connection issued" and block my access to CE and pre-order content, I had to play without Valiant and Crusader (not that I missed Argus or Raider, really). Viper is still out of place, totally meaningless for any serious job - neither one-shot damage dealer, neither quick follow-ups.

JaegerBane wrote...

Where it kind of falls apart is that the Valiant fits the same role but does it way better, while the BW, in modifying the orginal design of the Widow to make it more flexible, has the effect of moving onto the Viper's new patch by accident. And then, of course, we have powerful long-range pistols like the Carnifex and Paladin getting access to scopes, along with the sniper-orientated AR in the Saber. Hence you have three rifles and two pistols that are just better choices when considering the new Viper's role.

With all my love to ME2 Viper, I'm afraid ME3 Viper role is doomed to be mothballed in gun locker. As much as I don't like single-shot rifles in ME3 mechanics, I don't like Viper even more. Especially having access to Paladin/BW, not limited by any "connection issues" - just gather 250K gold credits and you got it.
Plus, Sabre, though available quite late, fires slow and with severe muzzle climb, at least packs quote powerful punch and climb could be negated by dampner. Paladin is off the charts totally - it's practically BW in pistol's package (.500 S&W looks pale in comparison, no?). And since we can get Raptor pretty early, I say Viper is rifle with one of the shortest service history in ME3.
Though I doubt there will be Renaissance for Viper, like it happened with M14.

SaturnRing wrote...

I couldn't agree more. It's trigger mechanism notably would be best fitted for a heavy duty high caliber SR. So with the Viper, you basically get a less user friendly trigger without the destructive power to go with it.

Well, I doubt it's "trigger mechanism" - somehow I'm not sure we have that RoF because of long pull and enourmous take-up. Agree on rest - Sabre, though not quite "fast" gun, at least powerful. Mattock lost ME2 punch and accuracy, but at least damage is decent, accuracy is somewhat acceptable, and RoF is perfect.

Doubtless, designer of ME3 Viper had worked within approved specifications; even so he must have had an off day.

SaturnRing wrote...

From its description, I was expecting the Raptor to fit in that role. It kinda does...but delivering more kinetic energy down range would have made it the perfect fit.

Yeah. Even if we remove high-power pistols out of equation, Raptor doesn't fit into BR role. BR is sort of more powerful, less tendy to "spray and pray" policy, more values well placed single shot. ME2 Mattock fitted that role, in ME3 only Sabre fits normally.
Raptor is too weak, IMHO, it's more fitting role of light carbine, like M4 with green tips, where you just send rounds downrange and hope for the best.
Valiant with that 3 round mag looks totally odd (I'd say he's normal SR, like modified M14, only being imported from anti-gunners' state with that low capacity anti-gunner state magazine).
Mattock is murdered with that accuracy, yet power is somewhat acceptable. Should they abort their faulty and wrong "pre-order bonus" games and just gave Mattock Argus' single shot power - it had more meaning and we had good BR. Because Argus' accuracy and "LE" description makes me laugh, really.

Even if they wanted to implement "enormous recoil" - thus justifying that delay between shots, I say it's wrong way to do. Either show us how Shepard "endures" recoil, or make guns as quick as player presses LMB and add normal crosshair sway, to indicate that currently it is not best time to make the shot. Adding huge delay is just odd. IMHO, of course.