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[capn233]

My Indra...

It was Indra V with Concentration Mod I and Enhanced Scope II (I failed to equip my Ext Barrel I). There is no SR Piercing available before Palaven if you are in new character or import game.

As for skills, I think I had AR 5 with Durability and Melee (not Duration, as I want the CD to happen more often), Incendiary 4 (I think) with Damage... I may have had rank 5 with Headshots, but Brute's have no heads. Combat Mastery was only Rank 4 I think, maybe 5.

As for armor, I was all N7 that mission as far as I recall.

Basically what screws you is that without "Inferno" spec or SR Piercing you are getting the full DR from armor, so that brings you down to maybe 10 damage per shot with the mild Incendiary bonus on base damage (estimate, without doing the calcs). On Eden Prime I had SR Piercing I and maxed Incendiary and it was much more effective against the Atlas at the end of that mission than against the last Brutes on Palaven. The only saving grace on Palaven was using Overload to setup up a Tech Burst, then Carnage to do damage and set it off, as well as another Carnage (mine) to do more damage (and set off a Fire Explosion when the Brutes died ).

The main weapon I am comparing performance on Palaven to would be the Vindi, as you get it at the end of Mars, and AR Piercing I is available at the camp before you face Brutes.

As for the Viper, it isn't anything like a Battle Rifle or DMR in this game because of the 70rpm rate of fire, which is laughable. Basically to be a battle rifle you have to have a full power cartridge, which in NATO was 7.62x51mm (.308 Winchester). Granted, if you try to fire a real battle rifle (G3, FAL, M14) as fast as you can you won't be very accurate, but none are limited to only 70rpm. 200rpm would have been less than its ME2 rate, but still low enough that it didn't encroach on the Raptor's 400 effective, and damage would be low enough to justify the difference between it and the Val. And it wasn't as if the ME2 Viper was all that accurate if you were really spraying it at the 240rpm limit, but that ROF did make it versatile.

I actually don't care for the Raptor all that much myself either, as it's damage per shot is fairly weak, but at least it tries to make up for that with more bullets. I agree it isn't like a 5.56mm carbine, it is almost like a pistol caliber carbine.

As for Paladin, yeah it is like a pistol in .338 Lapua (well energy wise) that has the recoil of maybe a .40 S&W. That would be pretty amazing if it existed.

Modifié par capn233, 05 mai 2012 - 11:38 .

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

My Indra...

It was Indra V with Concentration Mod I and Enhanced Scope II (I failed to equip my Ext Barrel I). There is no SR Piercing available before Palaven if you are in new character or import game.

As for skills, I think I had AR 5 with Durability and Melee (not Duration, as I want the CD to happen more often), Incendiary 4 (I think) with Damage... I may have had rank 5 with Headshots, but Brute's have no heads. Combat Mastery was only Rank 4 I think, maybe 5.

As for armor, I was all N7 that mission as far as I recall.

Gah! What I fight!
Yeah, I replayed it. LVL 34>35.

Armor - basic, plus helmet and Kassa chest (shield regen).

Armament:
Shep - Indra V with Concentration and spare ammo.
Team - Indra/Crusader (they also carried Avengers, but didn' used them).

Skills.
 
James: 
- Arms Master 6LLU.
- Carnage 5LL.
- Fortification 1 (inactive, I think). 
- Frag 2.

Garrus:
- Overload 5LL.
- Concussive shot 1. 
- Turian Rebel 6ULL.

Shep:
- Adrenaline Rush 4U (shield and health)
- Incendiary Ammo 5LU (squad/30%)
- Combat Mastery 4U (weapon damage)
- Fitness 6LLL (health and shield)
25 spare SP.

capn233 wrote...

Basically what screws you is that without "Inferno" spec or SR Piercing you are getting the full DR from armor, so that brings you down to maybe 10 damage per shot with the mild Incendiary bonus on base damage (estimate, without doing the calcs). 

Well, I'm not used to concentration on Indra (seriously) and AR generally, so I ****ed up a lot. Anyway, though it was hard to carefully calculate things while running, dodging and rolling, but I think it took 3 mags to chip 2 bars of armour on Brute, maybe 3.5 mag. I aimed for those open ribs on "back".

capn233 wrote...

On Eden Prime I had SR Piercing I and maxed Incendiary and it was much more effective against the Atlas at the end of that mission that against the last Brutes on Palaven. The only saving grace on Palaven was using Overload to setup up a Tech Burst, then Carnage to do damage and set it off, as well as another Carnage (mine) to do more damage (and set off a Fire Explosion when the Brutes died ).

Nah, I prefered direct approach - shoot bastards in their guts! All that techy-stuff is too complicated.  And boring.
Seriously, it's a bit off for T&E purpose - I tested Indra, not tech bursts.
Although I used James frag's and Garrus' Overload on Marauders when I tried to repeat your playthrough.

capn233 wrote...

The main weapon I am comparing performance on Palaven to would be the Vindi, as you get it at the end of Mars, and AR Piercing I is available at the camp before you face Brutes.

Well, I'm not sure why you didn't upgraded IA (or AP as bonus power, if you didn't want IEA splash damage). It's just much faster way to go and you have spare points to do that.
Generally I upgrade my Shep next way: IEA or AP6 LUL, generally via penetration, though sometimes I really want to see how the hell game calculates that "armor weakening". Then Combat mastery via passive damage (generally it's UUL, though on 5th step I sometime choose Headshot damage, but rarely, I'm not egoist, I help team!), then Fitness as I discribed above (you have almost enough points right in Vancouver, minus 1 point for bonus power), then Frags on damage/spare, then either CS or DA, generally 1 point in DA for shield stripping and CS into ULU. then either further DA for better shield stripping or AR for emergency reload and "getthehellouttaheretor".

capn233 wrote...

As for the Viper, it isn't anything like a Battle Rifle or DMR in this game because of the 70rpm rate of fire, which is laughable.

It could be 70 rpm, sort of "practical" or "combat" RoF and I'd be fine with it, should it has proper damage - compare it with BW: for 6 second BW fire 3 shot and reloads, Viper makes twice of that, but they are much more weaker. For 15 seconds, BW makes 12 shots, Viper only 16. What the ****ing point? Is there built-in AP mod, or ultra-high-cap mag, or built-in scope?

capn233 wrote...

Basically to be a battle rifle you have to have a full power cartridge, which in NATO was 7.62x51mm (.308 Winchester). Granted, if you try to fire a real battle rifle (G3, FAL, M14) as fast as you can you won't be very accurate, but none are limited to only 70rpm. 200rpm would have been less than its ME2 rate, but still low enough that it didn't encroach on the Raptor's 400 effective, and damage would be low enough to justify the difference between it and the Val. And it wasn't as if the ME2 Viper was all that accurate if you were really spraying it at the 240rpm limit, but that ROF did make it versatile.

You know worst part of all that? I understand it all.
But seriously, even if we compare AK or SKS for 7.62x39, they somewhat could be called "battle rifles", yet they are less powerful that .308 guns. Not sure for SVD, though. Speaking of which - should Viper had power about halfway between itself and BW, closer to BW a bit, plus bigger mag, back to ME2 - then it could be closer to more or less "acceptable" rifle. I didn't really sat over equations, only sketches.

capn233 wrote...

I actually don't care for the Raptor all that much myself either, as it's damage per shot is fairly weak, but at least it tries to make up for that with more bullets. I agree it isn't like a 5.56mm carbine, it is almost like a pistol caliber carbine.

I can't say .223 kicks that much.
Maybe .30 Carbine (7.62×33mm)?

capn233 wrote...

As for Paladin, yeah it is like a pistol in .338 Lapua (well energy wise) that has the recoil of maybe a .40 S&W. That would be pretty amazing if it existed.

A bit long pause for .40. 10 mm auto maybe? In aluminum frame, or scandium - recoil seems to be quite snappy.
And if Paladin is .338, then what is Valiant? I've read that old table where ther were almost on part, but I never was able to OSOK Guardian via headshot through shield with Valiant, yet I did that with Paladin. Murky mistery.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


Yeah. Even if we remove high-power pistols out of equation, Raptor doesn't fit into BR role. BR is sort of more powerful, less tendy to "spray and pray" policy, more values well placed single shot. ME2 Mattock fitted that role, in ME3 only Sabre fits normally.
Raptor is too weak, IMHO, it's more fitting role of light carbine, like M4 with green tips, where you just send rounds downrange and hope for the best.
Valiant with that 3 round mag looks totally odd (I'd say he's normal SR, like modified M14, only being imported from anti-gunners' state with that low capacity anti-gunner state magazine).
Mattock is murdered with that accuracy, yet power is somewhat acceptable. Should they abort their faulty and wrong "pre-order bonus" games and just gave Mattock Argus' single shot power - it had more meaning and we had good BR. Because Argus' accuracy and "LE" description makes me laugh, really.

Even if they wanted to implement "enormous recoil" - thus justifying that delay between shots, I say it's wrong way to do. Either show us how Shepard "endures" recoil, or make guns as quick as player presses LMB and add normal crosshair sway, to indicate that currently it is not best time to make the shot. Adding huge delay is just odd. IMHO, of course.

Absolutely. You get 20 rounds with the M14 and at least 10 with the M21; 3 for the Valiant is just pure frustration.

I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out where the fire burst pre order weapons fit in the game arsenal. Frankly i hardly see how they can be utilized.  The Valkyrie would make an excellent AR with slightly less power - reduced recoil - and an upgrade from burst to full auto. While i see a fully auto argus fit as devastating light mg sort of an M60 or even better, a Mrk 48 - as long as accuracy can be substantially improved. Although the other way around (both in semi auto) works as well.

On another note i still don't wanna let go of the Incisor. And i keep getting killed. A lot. But  I just love that weapon; its burst however proves as lethal to me as to what i'm shooting at; cannibals and husks are just running around like there's no tomorrow.  

Modifié par SaturnRing, 06 mai 2012 - 12:37 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

Absolutely. You get 20 rounds with the M14 and at least 10 with the M21; 3 for the Valiant is just pure frustration.

It's artistic intergity. I mean but the balance!
Elanee, get the hell out of my computer!

I think I could go with 3 round mag (and did that for 5 playthroughs), what annoys me is lack of total ammo cap upgrade as you upgrade rifle. It will be 30 no matter what.
Given fact that most SR require to spent half of their basic carried ammo, Indra excluded, to deal with Banshee's armour...

SaturnRing wrote...

I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out where the fire burst pre order weapons fit in the game arsenal. 

Mothballed in gun locker. Burst is totally screwed in this game, period. And recoil dampner works only with climb, not spread. It helps, a bit. For Vindicator, mostly.

SaturnRing wrote...

Frankly i hardly see how they can be utilized.  The Valkyrie would make an excellent AR with slightly less power - reduced recoil - and an upgrade from burst to full auto. While i see a fully auto argus fit as devastating light mg sort of an M60 or even better, a Mrk 48 - as long as accuracy can be substantially improved. Although the other way arround (both in semi auto) works as well.
 

Argus should be removed, it's single-shot power should be transferred to Mattock. Full-auto Argus will be like those semi-anecdotes on rapid-fire systems, like Minigun: fire thousand rounds, kill one, scare the rest combined with stories about somedude tried to fire .50 cal from hip. No one saw that dude, but most heard about him.

While there is Avenger I see no place for full-auto Valkyrie. Don't know who will give such innaccurate and heavy rifle for recruits, really. Should it sent both rounds almost simultaneously, sort of Abakan, that could be understandable.

I think those guns, as well as some others, just fell victims of "quantity over quality" policy. There is no normal "shot power" system distribution (a-la .223, 7.62x39, .308) and no feedback and links between weapon parametres. They just "are".
Does that makes me sound like Sovereign?

SaturnRing wrote...

On another note i still don't wanna let go of the Incisor. And i keep getting killed. A lot. But I just love that weapon; its burst however proves as lethal to me as to what i'm shooting at; cannibals and husks are just running around like there's no tomorrow.

Well, since there is no Indra and Valiant for you, I can only recommend IEA. One and only thing that makes Incirsor if not shine, well, at least it removes some dull from it.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 06 mai 2012 - 12:41 .

[capn233]

This is mostly to Rudy, but whoever wants to listen to my ramblings...

Re Indra performance, I just didn't have the points for Incendiary Rank 6... probably because of the way the import already assigned them. I did have Squad Disruptor, which would have allowed me to get rank 6 if I respec'd. Alternatively, I could have avoided going to full rank ARush as soon as I did or had less in Fitness.

As for the combos, basically you can still shoot them while doing the above, which is what I prefer to do. It makes it go faster. But the weapon damage itself without the 2 key ingredients wasn't very good, at least not against armor. That isn't really surprising. However, if I am going to remain in complainer mode then I might as well say that if you go pure Indra in a new game then ammo can get a little thin.

Regarding all my weird bullet analogies, technically 7.62x39 can't be in a battle rifle because it is an intermediate cartridge. So anything chambered in it with select fire and a detachable box mag would be an assault rifle. But maybe if we forgot designations and went with a hierarchy of energies for our analogies it would fit in somewhere with the odd powered rifles.

But as for my crazy correlations between damage and cartridge energy or recoil, well they might not be the most precise. Viper in ME2 seemed like it was sort of a DMR in damage and ROF... maybe an AR platform... I hesitate to say that it would be 5.56mm because base damage was pretty far from the Avenger or Revenant, which is why I arbitrarily said 7.62NATO for a Viper and maybe 5.56 for the Assault Tuna and Revi. Maybe that is imprecise.

For the Raptor I didn't intend to make a claim about the recoil, just that the damage per shot seems pretty weak by rifle standards. I don't know if the figures I am looking at are SP, but Raptor is something like 97 vs 286 for Viper (I think these are supposed to be level X). Perhaps it is sort of like a shorter barrel AR trying to be usable with 5.56mm. Just that it is pretty close to Predator levels of poor damage, and we all know a Predator is a space-9mm (it's actually 20pts higher than the Predator), but I was actually not thinking specifically of a 9mm carbine, but the interesting bit is that Raptor is less powerful than every other pistol per shot. This does get back to fictional game balance and makes our analogies more imprecise, as pistol rounds just don't compete with rifle rounds in terms of energy. But yeah, 5.56 doesn't kick all that much, especially not in the AR platform, but that has a bit to do with the weapon design as well. But then again, you don't lose that much energy going from a 20" to a 14.5" (as in, you aren't quite down to pistol carbine energy).  I dunno what the Raptor is really, maybe it is a .30 carbine.

As for my last oddball comment, basically the Paladin allegedly does 438 damage per shot upgraded, while Valiant is 396. I don't know what is going on with headshots though. In ME2 you could get a bonus on the SR's for headshot damage that wasn't available for others. In this game it is supposedly just a 2.5 multiplier for every weapon, plus bonuses from passive and ammo (which apparently applies even if the ammo normally does 0 damage to the current protection). In terms of energies, I was just throwing out a powerful rifle cartridge. Maybe it is too powerful for a Paladin analogy, but if you make Widow .50 BMG (with ~18000J energy) then .338 is around 6500J or so, it sort of fits. In any case, Paladin energy relative to Widow is a lot closer than .500SW (~4000J) to .50BMG, just going from energy. I realize this is sort of odd when you think about Black Widow at 640 damage per shot or 769 for Mantis. To be honest, I am not all that familiar with too many cartridges between .338 and .50 to assign something to all of them.

For recoil in game with the pistols, I think it isn't bad at all, so I only picked something "above average." But maybe it is more like 10mm instead. At any rate we can still agree that it is a lot less recoil relative to power than any handgun in existence today.

All in all I realize I am just talking energy mostly and that effectiveness and energy aren't exactly the same thing. But it is sort of a way to stratify cartridges and make some crude analogies

Modifié par capn233, 06 mai 2012 - 03:14 .

[capn233]

I know I have been off topic a bit... but just to quickly address ARs (ME's, not Stoner's), I tried out the Valkyrie and Argus and thought they were both rubbish. I love the Vindicator, but I never run it with Stability. In fact, I have given up on stability on AR's because of the fact it only combats muzzle climb. Muzzle climb really only occurs to any degree with a couple weapons, and really only when you are out of cover. I prefer to just aim down when firing the Vindi or Revenant. This means I can run AR Scope and AR Piercing on them. The AR scope is mainly for ease of targeting on the Vindi, and for the Revenant it does noticeably shrink the group size.

Modifié par capn233, 06 mai 2012 - 03:20 .

[Rudy Lis]

I've been digging through my records and sorting them out. These are not on sniper rifles (there just much more data and I haven't finished testing some of rifles (Viper, ahem), I know, it's not belong here, but here are some data I've gathered on shotguns. If you think they are off-topic (and they, apparently, are), tell me and I will remove them.

Practically as before, initial conditions for testing are same - Cerberus armour, Incendiary Explosive Ammo, Weapon grade X, mods V. Mods installed - shredder and barrel.

Banshee test.
Numbers below are arithmetical mean. Fluctuations were minimal. Generally it's one round up or down.
Three guns are exceptions from this rule - GPS, Raider and Graal.
GPS was most stable shotgun, in all runs showed same results.
Raider is very short-range gun, what I generally dislike, but I cannot deny minimal delay between two shots from one mag (probably fastest out there) and power at point blank range. My numbers given here reflect situation when Banshee were closing the distance from 20 metres sometime to point blank.
Graal, on another hand, is quite powerful, accurate but it's projectiles' velocity is slower than on other guns. When there were no lateral movement from target, it was quite accurate and powerful. It there was - it was easy miss. And sometimes Banshee "jerked" back at strange angles. So, those high numbers (read "bad results") are on me, I'm not very proficient with those two guns.

Katana ~ 15.
Geth Plasma Shotgun - 10.
Wraith ~ 12.
Scimitar ~ 12.
Raider ~ 12 (minimal was 6, but there were "interference" from team, but not much, really).
Graal Spike Thrower ~ 11 (minimal was 8).
Eviscerator ~ 12.
Disciple ~ 12.
Crusader ~ 15-16.
Claymore ~ 7.

Now time tables.
No "speedload" a.k.a. interrupted reloads.

6 seconds.
Katana was able to make 5 shots - 5>R.
Geth Plasma Shotgun was able to make 6 shots - 5>R>1.
Wraith was able to make 4 shots - 2>R>2.
Scimitar was able to make 8 shots - 8>R (timesplit happens in middle of reload).
Raider was able to make 6 shots- 2>R>2>R>2.
Graal Spike Thrower was able to make 5 shots - 3>R>2.
Eviscerator was able to make 5 shots - 3>R>2.
Disciple was able to make 6 shots - 4>R>2.
Crusader was able to make 7 to 8 shots - 4>R>3 (timesplit occurs right at moment of fourth (actually eigths shot, so I brushed it off).
Claymore was able to make 2 shots - 1>R>1.

Now 15 seconds range.
Katana was able to make 13 shots - 5>R>5>R>3.
Geth Plasma Shotgun was able to make 11 shots - 5>R>5>R>1.
Wraith was able to make 8 shots - 2>R>2>R>2>R>2.
Scimitar was able to make 17 shots - 8>R>8>R>1 (timesplit happens on moment of seventeenths shot).
Raider was able to make 12 shots- 2>R>2>R>2>R>2>R>2>R>2.
Graal Spike Thrower was able to make 11 shots - 3>R>3>R>3>R>2 (timesplit happens right on moment of twelveths shot).
Eviscerator was able to make 9 shots - 3>R>3>R>3.
Disciple was able to make 13 shots - 4>R>4>R>4>R>1 (timesplit happens right on moment of thirteenths shot).
Crusader was able to make 15 to 16 shots - 4>R>4>R>4>R>3 (timesplit occurs right at moment of sixteenth shot).
Claymore was able to make 5 shots - 1>R>1>R>1>R>1>R>1.

[SaturnRing]

capn233 wrote...

This is mostly to Rudy, but whoever wants to listen to my ramblings...

Like you, I have the Widow chambered in 50 cal. That would leave Lupua Magnum for either BW or Mantis(probably Mantis)...

Edit:

even digging around , i can't think of anything - that would fit the BW - between 338 and 7.62(nato); or between 50 BMG or 338 that would fit the Mantis.

This is how i rank those i'm familiar with(in the game):

Widow(M06/M99) 50BMG
Mantis Lupua 338
Black Widow???
Viper(Mk 11) 7.62nato
Raptor(Mag 12) 5.56
Mattock(AK 47) 7.62
Avenger(AK 74) 5.45
Carniflex(Mk 23) 45acp
Predator(G 17) 9mm...

I never tried the Valiant, but it would probably be similar to a DSR (7.62x67 - just a little over the Viper)
 

Modifié par SaturnRing, 06 mai 2012 - 05:18 .

[Rudy Lis]

Achtung! Wall of text incoming.

[quote]capn233 wrote...

This is mostly to Rudy, but whoever wants to listen to my ramblings...

Re Indra performance, I just didn't have the points for Incendiary Rank 6... probably because of the way the import already assigned them. I did have Squad Disruptor, which would have allowed me to get rank 6 if I respec'd. Alternatively, I could have avoided going to full rank ARush as soon as I did or had less in Fitness. [/quote]

I'm not accusing you in something, I just noticed relatively high amount of spare points I had when tried to mimic your playthrough, so I asked.
Somewhat I had that problem during release day - I had my ME2 Shep maxed out as possible, so when I imported him and checked ME3 skill-deck, I was bit a surprised. After several respects and tries I decided to minimize amount of skills, but maximize their level. And due "new"©™® "improved"©™® weight system, I noticed that my Shep's active abilties sucked. So I decided to avoid them. I'm just getting used to this system and it was a bit surprising when I had to played differently - I have no problems seeing other people characters' builds but playing something totally different with your (in this case - mine) Shepard was quite this.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

As for the combos, basically you can still shoot them while doing the above, which is what I prefer to do. It makes it go faster. But the weapon damage itself without the 2 key ingredients wasn't very good, at least not against armor. That isn't really surprising.  [/quote]

I know, I just don't like it. It's not my form of protest due lack of Michael Beattie, but I just prefer not to rely on abilities as long as I'm able.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

However, if I am going to remain in complainer mode then I might as well say that if you go pure Indra in a new game then ammo can get a little thin. [/quote]

Nope. Ben there, Dan that.  If we speak for ME2 import - haven't tried to play insanity without distributed skills. Hmm... No. Definetely do not want.

IEA + combat mastery via passive damage boost, plus spare ammo and AP mod/barrel turn Indra into... into... I don't know - Apocalypse Ain't Got Nothin': kill anything (and pretty much everything)?
Indra is one of few rifles, if not the only one, that doesn't really needs barrel+concentration to be effective. Yes, when you use relatively weak ammo (well, anything that's not IEA), than those damage boosters could be useful, but really, does it matter that you kill target with 135 rounds instead of 150, when spare ammo mod gives you much more than those 15 rounds you saved?


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Regarding all my weird bullet analogies, technically 7.62x39 can't be in a battle rifle because it is an intermediate cartridge. So anything chambered in it with select fire and a detachable box mag would be an assault rifle. But maybe if we forgot designations and went with a hierarchy of energies for our analogies it would fit in somewhere with the odd powered rifles. [/quote]

My point exactly, because technically M14 and G3 have selective fire and detachable box mags and .308 (well, technically 7.62x51 NATO) is just "kid sized" .30-06.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

But as for my crazy correlations between damage and cartridge energy or recoil, well they might not be the most precise. Viper in ME2 seemed like it was sort of a DMR in damage and ROF... maybe an AR platform... I hesitate to say that it would be 5.56mm because base damage was pretty far from the Avenger or Revenant, which is why I arbitrarily said 7.62NATO for a Viper and maybe 5.56 for the Assault Tuna and Revi. Maybe that is imprecise. [/quote]

I'm not sure Revenant is 5.56, a bit too "splashy" for it (even if by "that table" it's damage is on par with Indra's). Of course in full-auto almost anything won't be surgically precise, but even in short bursts it's a way unnacurate. Should that spread be cumulative - it'll be fine, but for first round sending it "someway overthere"?
And Viper, like I said - it's weaker, and has huge delay between shots. I'm not sure it'll fit into .308 niche.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

For the Raptor I didn't intend to make a claim about the recoil, just that the damage per shot seems pretty weak by rifle standards. [/quote]

That's why I said "green tip". They have almost zero stopping power.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

This does get back to fictional game balance and makes our analogies more imprecise, as pistol rounds just don't compete with rifle rounds in terms of energy.  [/quote]

Like you said, "fictional game balance" is... Well, let's compare apples to apples, not to pineapples.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

For recoil in game with the pistols, I think it isn't bad at all, so I only picked something "above average." But maybe it is more like 10mm instead. At any rate we can still agree that it is a lot less recoil relative to power than any handgun in existence today. [/quote]

It's not only about recoil, it's also about pause between shots. For example, Talon's RoF could be explained via it's purpose and construction, we can assume cylinder rotation, additional venting, etc. Same could go for Scorpion - unpacking projecting, blah-blah scientific mumbo-jumbo.
But Carnifex and Paladin (as well as Phalanx)? Their bore axis is very low, probably lower than any modern gun outside of XX metres pistols for ISSF events. Only Predator's bore axis is somewhat closer to modern guns, like Glock, for example. Yet it seems muzzle flip doesn't affect any of those guns, so you can't blame it for slower RoF - it seems all guns has one muzzle flip angle, yet Predator is extremely fast and Palnifex is quite slowpokey.
And you can't say there is huge shotgun-like recoil, because you can't notice it on animation. And I can't explain why Palnifex is so slow, since I don't see any "high-tech ****" explaining that long delay.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

All in all I realize I am just talking energy mostly and that effectiveness and energy aren't exactly the same thing. But it is sort of a way to stratify cartridges and make some crude analogies
[/quote]

No, I'm fine with it. It's much better than what we have - at least we have basis to work with.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I know I have been off topic a bit... but just to quickly address ARs (ME's, not Stoner's), I tried out the Valkyrie and Argus and thought they were both rubbish. [/quote]

No argument here.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I love the Vindicator, but I never run it with Stability. In fact, I have given up on stability on AR's because of the fact it only combats muzzle climb. Muzzle climb really only occurs to any degree with a couple weapons, and really only when you are out of cover. [/quote]

Ahm. Valiant, Indra and Hurricane are susceptible to that climb even in cover. Plus, sticking to cover is not always an option.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I prefer to just aim down when firing the Vindi or Revenant. This means I can run AR Scope and AR Piercing on them. The AR scope is mainly for ease of targeting on the Vindi, and for the Revenant it does noticeably shrink the group size.[/quote]

Shrink? Well, to Brute-size yes.


[quote]SaturnRing wrote...

Like you, I have the Widow chambered in 50 cal. That would leave Lupua Magnum for either BW or Mantis(probably Mantis)...

Edit:

even digging around , i can't think of anything - that would fit the BW - between 338 and 7.62(nato); or between 50 BMG or 338 that would fit the Mantis.

This is how i rank those i'm familiar with(in the game):

Widow(M06/M99) 50BMG
Mantis Lupua 338
Black Widow???
Viper(SR 25) 7.62nato
Raptor(Mag 12) 5.56
Mattock(AK 47) 7.62
Avenger(AK 74) 5.45
Carniflex(Mark 23) 45acp
Predator(G 17) 9mm...
[/quote]

How we compare them, by muzzle energy?

Lets see:
Widow - 1083.
Black Widow - 642.
Mantis - 769.
Viper - 286.
Incirsor - 84.
Raptor - 97.
Javelin - 993.
Indra - 59.
Valiant - 396.
All present and accounted for? Okay, lets take Widow for 100%.

That's the percentage rate:
Widow - 100.
Black Widow - 59.28.
Mantis - 71.01.
Viper - 26.41.
Incirsor - 7.76.
Raptor - 8.96.
Javelin - 91.69.
Indra - 5.45.
Valiant - 36.57.

Now let's compare muzzle energy. If we take Widow as .50 BMG and took muzzle energy as 20195 Joules, then we will have next table.

Widow - 20195.
Black Widow - 11971.55.
Mantis - 14339.76.
Viper - 5333.12.
Incirsor - 1566.37.
Raptor - 1808.79.
Javelin - 18516.75.
Indra - 1100.19.
Valiant - 7384.32.

So, we only need to find cartridges fitting those powers.
.308 is 3500J and there is nothing nearby.
.300 H&H is around 5100 J, so it's probably Viper (which is quite hilarous).
.408 Chey Tac is about 11000J, so it's probably BW (what is strange, since according to description BW and W should have same power).
300 AAC Blackout is about 1800J, so it'll fit several rifles.
5.56×45mm NATO is around 1700J, so it'll fit several rifles as well. I'd choose it for Raptor.
7.62x39mm is around 2000, so also it could fit some guns.
5.45×39mm is about 1300J, so that's could be for Incirsor.
.30 Carbine (7.62×33mm) is around 1100J and that's fits Indra better.
.700 Nitro Express is around 12000J, so it'll be our Mantis.
12.7×108 mm is about 14000J so it could be Javelin (or Javelin could be other type of .50 BMG), then this could be Mantis.
.476 Nitro Express or .500.Nitro Express (6800-7900J) - Valiant.

I specifically ignored pistols and assault rifles, since Paladin with it's 438 damage will be equal to 8000J and that's somewhere around .470 Nitro Express. Excuse me, I don't believe that's cartridge for concealed carry pistol.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...
How we compare them, by muzzle energy?

Lets see:
Widow - 1083.
Black Widow - 642.
Mantis - 769.
Viper - 286.
Incirsor - 84.
Raptor - 97.
Javelin - 993.
Indra - 59.
Valiant - 396.

 Sounds good. I take your word for it, as i'm thin in that department. That low for the Indra? Situating the BW still feels problematic...so close to the Mantis' (338?), yet...no quite there.  

All present and accounted for? Okay, lets take Widow for 100%.

That's the percentage rate:
Widow - 100.
Black Widow - 59.28.
Mantis - 71.01.
Viper - 26.41.
Incirsor - 7.76.
Raptor - 8.96.
Javelin - 91.69.
Indra - 5.45.
Valiant - 36.57.

Again, solid. And again Indra surprisingly low. With 59.28% of the Widow's, the BW does feel seriously  under powered and closer to the 308 this time.

Now let's compare muzzle energy. If we take Widow as .50 BMG and took muzzle energy as 20195 Joules, then we will have next table.

Widow - 20195.
Black Widow - 11971.55.
Mantis - 14339.76.
Viper - 5333.12.
Incirsor - 1566.37.
Raptor - 1808.79.
Javelin - 18516.75.
Indra - 1100.19.
Valiant - 7384.32.

So, we only need to find cartridges fitting those powers.
.308 is 3500J and there is nothing nearby.
.300 H&H is around 5100 J, so it's probably Viper (which is quite hilarous).
.408 Chey Tac is about 11000J, so it's probably BW (what is strange, since according to description BW and W should have same power).
300 AAC Blackout is about 1800J, so it'll fit several rifles.
5.56×45mm NATO is around 1700J, so it'll fit several rifles as well. I'd choose it for Raptor.
7.62x39mm is around 2000, so also it could fit some guns.
5.45×39mm is about 1300J, so that's could be for Incirsor.
.30 Carbine (7.62×33mm) is around 1100J and that's fits Indra better.
.700 Nitro Express is around 12000J, so it'll be our Mantis.
12.7×108 mm is about 14000J so it could be Javelin (or Javelin could be other type of .50 BMG), then this could be Mantis.
.476 Nitro Express or .500.Nitro Express (6800-7900J) - Valiant.

I specifically ignored pistols and assault rifles, since Paladin with it's 438 damage will be equal to 8000J and that's somewhere around .470 Nitro Express. Excuse me, I don't believe that's cartridge for concealed carry pistol.

Quite the jump for the Viper ( 3500J from my perspective, to 5100/5333 if it's chambered in 300H&H). That also makes the Incisor so close to the Avenger(yikes).
You see! I forgot about the Chey Tac. So you're jumping in the 338 (lower?) echelon(if i'm not mistaken) for the BW. Although it does make sense for its 11000J. I'm still going through your numbers to try and dig out more...  

Modifié par SaturnRing, 06 mai 2012 - 02:35 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

 Sounds good. I take your word for it, as i'm thin in that department. That low for the Indra? Situating the BW still feels problematic...so close to the Mantis' (338?), yet...no quite there.  

Those are not my numbers, they are from "internet table", published quite a time ago.
I can try and calculate relative proportions between guns, base my calculations on shots-to-kill numbers. There, of course, will be no concrete numbers - only percents.
And I'm already working in that direction. But I'm afraid Incirsor won't be there at all - I still can't kill Banshee with it.

SaturnRing wrote...

Again, solid. And again Indra surprisingly low. With 59.28% of the Widow's, the BW does feel seriously  under powered and closer to the 308 this time.

By my opinion Black Widow should have exactly same parametres as Widow, maybe being a tad heavier - space for additional heat-sinks. Because cropping BW power down to 60% of W is barely fitting BW's description about "stopping power". Obviously they are not close.

SaturnRing wrote...

Quite the jump for the Viper ( 3500J from my perspective, to 5100/5333 if it's chambered in 300H&H). That also makes the Incisor so close to the Avenger(yikes).

Well, that makes sense. Well, it would made sense, should we have ultra accurate and fast burst from Incirsor and that'd fit description - not that powerful rifle designed for long range shield stripping.

SaturnRing wrote...

You see! I forgot about the Chey Tac. So you're jumping in the 338 (lower?) echelon(if i'm not mistaken) for the BW. Although it does make sense for its 11000J. I'm still going through your numbers to try and dig out more...  

.338 is tad weaker than .476 Nitro Express - about 6600J. For that cartridge BW should be quite faster, since that weight should absorb .338 recoil.


Update.
This is "relative percentage" table I've wrote about above. Incirsor is here - finally I managed to kill Banshee with it (leitmotif of my exercise: "and I thought Shuriken was bad").

I choose minimal numbers. These are integers or "whole numbers".

Widow - 7
Black Widow - 10
Mantis - 10
Viper - 24
Incirsor - 90
Raptor - 73
Javelin - 6
Indra - 75
Valiant -15

If we took this tab and consider Widow to be our 100% in terms of power, then power table relatively of Widow will look like:

Widow - 100%
Black Widow - 70% (59 by table)
Mantis - 70% (71.01 by table)
Viper - 29.17% (26.41 by table)
Incirsor - 7.78% (7.76 by table)
Raptor - 9.59% (8.96 by table)
Javelin - 116.67% (91.69 by table)
Indra - 9.33% (5.45 by table)
Valiant -46.67% (36.57 by table)

So if you disagree with any of my previous calculations based on internet table or you disagree with my choice of reference points (for example you want to use 14.5×114 mm for Widow or Javelin or .308 for Valiant) - feel free to alter them.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 06 mai 2012 - 05:44 .

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


By my opinion Black Widow should have exactly same parametres as Widow, maybe being a tad heavier - space for additional heat-sinks. Because cropping BW power down to 60% of W is barely fitting BW's description about "stopping power". Obviously they are not close.

When the BW was first introduced, what were the trade offs supposed to be? compare to the Widow...

Update.
This is "relative percentage" table I've wrote about above. Incirsor is here - finally I managed to kill Banshee with it (leitmotif of my exercise: "and I thought Shuriken was bad").

I choose minimal numbers. These are integers or "whole numbers".

Widow - 7
Black Widow - 10
Mantis - 10
Viper - 24
Incirsor - 90
Raptor - 73
Javelin - 6
Indra - 75
Valiant -15

90 for the Incisor is just insane!!!
Edit 
It wouldn't be such a problem even with it's 3 round burst, provided that the recoil could be brought under control. The main problem with Incisor never was muzzle flip: horizontal spread is what kills it for me. It's unfortunate that the stabilizer corrects it vertically for the most part - like someone noted earlier. 

If we took this tab and consider Widow to be our 100% in terms of power, then power table relatively of Widow will look like:

Widow - 100%
Black Widow - 70% (59 by table)
Mantis - 70% (71.01 by table)
Viper - 29.17% (26.41 by table)
Incirsor - 7.78% (7.76 by table)
Raptor - 9.59% (8.96 by table)
Javelin - 116.67% (91.69 by table)
Indra - 9.33% (5.45 by table)
Valiant -46.67% (36.57 by table)

So if you disagree with any of my previous calculations based on internet table or you disagree with my choice of reference points (for example you want to use 14.5×114 mm for Widow or Javelin or .308 for Valiant) - feel free to alter them.

It feels pretty accurate; the thing i notice is how close the numbers are for BW, W an Javelin...


It does further highlight how weak my beloved Incisor and Raptor are(the Raptor makes up for that in speed). At Least the Mantis packs some serious punch. In a way weapon power disparity does make laying down a sound strategy more appealing.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 06 mai 2012 - 07:01 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

When the BW was first introduced, what were the trade offs supposed to be? compare to the Widow...

Apparently none. At least I can't find "this is it" point in ingame description. By my point of view BW's price is that trade-off.

SaturnRing wrote...

90 for the Incisor is just insane!!!

That's fine for Indra, why's it's bad for Incirsor? 75 for Indra is my best score and I played with it three consequtive playthroughs and ton of short replays when done T&E for ammo powers. With Incirsor, as well as with Viper, I played only "do a banshee" test and played it twice. Surprisingly, results were identical for Incirsor. Concentration + Barrel, of course. 

SaturnRing wrote...

Edit
It wouldn't be such a problem even with it's 3 round burst, provided that the recoil could be brought under control. The main problem with Incisor never was muzzle flip: horizontal spread is what kills it for me. It's unfortunate that the stabilizer corrects it vertically for the most part - like someone noted earlier. 

That was capn233 I believe.
Hmm, I didn't noticed that much of horizontal spread, really, Incirsor is quite accurate in this aspect. Muzzle clumb on the other hand is horrible. Plus RoF. That slow "tew... - tew ... - tew" instead of fast "Trrsh"...


 

SaturnRing wrote...

It feels pretty accurate; the thing i notice is how close the numbers are for BW, W an Javelin...

I wouldn't say BW is close, I'd say she and Mantis are on "second league", while Widow and Javelin are "premier".

SaturnRing wrote...

It does further highlight how weak my beloved Incisor and Raptor are(the Raptor makes up for that in speed). At Least the Mantis packs some serious punch. In a way weapon power disparity does make laying down a sound strategy more appealing.

Not sure for laying down (if you mean mothballing, than I got it), but there are two serious factors involved:
- time, i.e. how fast weapon delivers required amount of damage over time.
- overshot and undershot, i.e. how much of weapon's power actually required to kill someone. Sort of using Widow on CATs, since most of the power just wasted.

Both those parameters plus ammo power (and armour, of course) are quite important and not for "damage rate", but kill rate.
Damage rate is also important, but on long run it's a bit irrelevant, because for most rifles, to deal with Banshee's armour (from my test) you have to spend around half of carried ammo supply, sometimes more, sometimes less, but generally that's the amount.
Same pattern is somewhat true for other types of weapons. Maybe not to extent of "half of ammo", but, say "one mag will chip 2 armour bars". NB: those not precise numbers! Not yet, at least.

So at the end what I looking for was exactly kill rate - an equation, involving weapon damage, reload time and how those two combines with actual situation on battlefield, since targets rarely just stand there - that was exactly what you asked, "how fast those guns were".

And if watch on recored missions time-table, it seems that generally my fastest rates happend with Valiant, sometime Indra was faster (generally on IEA) or on par or slower (generally that's APP). I didn't performed massive tests with other ammo powers yet, but those runs I've done were less then welcoming for other ammo powers. Maybe it's just me, of course.


Gah! Damn it, what's wrong with local network today?
So as not to be unfounded - for placeholder (a.k.a. short) missions, like N7 or Tuchanka Bomb, my runs with Indra and Valiant are generally several minutes faster, 12-13 minutes versus 15-17. Longer missions, like "Priority something" fall under this "rule" as well.

So simply put I think single-shot rifles are either too powerful, when you land handshot (and most of the power is wasted, since less powerful Valiant does exactly same job and do it faster), or underpowered, when you don't, since they can't OSOK on body/extremities shot. Given their long reload time (and interrupted reload don't help that much, according to my tests) and general lack of uber-performance when dealing with big-game (Banshee, Brute, Atlas) I find their current characteristics quite questionnable.

Don't get me wrong. Any existing rifle can do the job, only question - how fast she'll do that (and how much ammo it'll take). And if time is unimportant for you, say you on vacation, free weekend or, ahem, insomnia that time could be issue for Shepard, since it's his arse on the risk, not ours and faster you dispose of threat - the better. 

Final note - all those computation are true for soldier, relying on guns, not abilities (even those of team-mates).
My experience with other classes is limited.
If you want to shoot things, but don't have access to ammo power, then single-shot rifles (and I think it'll be Mantis because of weight) may be more worthy for you.

Tables on pistols, SMGs and ARs are in the middle of calibrations calculations and may be available later, if they will be interesting to anybody.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 06 mai 2012 - 08:42 .

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


That was capn233 I believe.
Hmm, I didn't noticed that much of horizontal spread, really, Incirsor is quite accurate in this aspect. Muzzle clumb on the other hand is horrible. Plus RoF. That slow "tew... - tew ... - tew" instead of fast "Trrsh"...


 

 I get the north-east muzzle climb. Vertical climb doesn't bother me so much. I expect some degree of it for most weapons.

 
Not sure for laying down (if you mean mothballing, than I got it), but there are two serious factors involved:
- time, i.e. how fast weapon delivers required amount of damage over time.
- overshot and undershot, i.e. how much of weapon's power actually required to kill someone. Sort of using Widow on CATs, since most of the power just wasted.

Both those parameters plus ammo power (and armour, of course) are quite important and not for "damage rate", but kill rate.
Damage rate is also important, but on long run it's a bit irrelevant, because for most rifles, to deal with Banshee's armour (from my test) you have to spend around half of carried ammo supply, sometimes more, sometimes less, but generally that's the amount.
Same pattern is somewhat true for other types of weapons. Maybe not to extent of "half of ammo", but, say "one mag will chip 2 armour bars". NB: those not precise numbers! Not yet, at least.

So at the end what I looking for was exactly kill rate - an equation, involving weapon damage, reload time and how those two combines with actual situation on battlefield, since targets rarely just stand there - that was exactly what you asked, "how fast those guns were".

And if watch on recored missions time-table, it seems that generally my fastest rates happend with Valiant, sometime Indra was faster (generally on IEA) or on par or slower (generally that's APP). I didn't performed massive tests with other ammo powers yet, but those runs I've done were less then welcoming for other ammo powers. Maybe it's just me, of course.


Gah! Damn it, what's wrong with local network today?
So as not to be unfounded - for placeholder (a.k.a. short) missions, like N7 or Tuchanka Bomb, my runs with Indra and Valiant are generally several minutes faster, 12-13 minutes versus 15-17. Longer missions, like "Priority something" fall under this "rule" as well.

That's pretty much what i was going for as far as sound strategy is involved. That's also why i never thought of the W, BW, Javelin or Mantis(ok maybe the Mantis) as the best SR. No doubt they're the most powerful and they get the job done for most of us. But I'd rather approach things from a versatility stanpoint: and i found the Raptor(well not entirely; more or less) to be ideal(?) in filling the gaps so to speak. I wish i could squeeze the Incisor in too...

  


So simply put I think single-shot rifles are either too powerful, when you land handshot (and most of the power is wasted, since less powerful Valiant does exactly same job and do it faster), or underpowered, when you don't, since they can't OSOK on body/extremities shot. Given their long reload time (and interrupted reload don't help that much, according to my tests) and general lack of uber-performance when dealing with big-game (Banshee, Brute, Atlas) I find their current characteristics quite questionnable.

Don't get me wrong. Any existing rifle can do the job, only question - how fast she'll do that (and how much ammo it'll take). And if time is unimportant for you, say you on vacation, free weekend or, ahem, insomnia that time could be issue for Shepard, since it's his arse on the risk, not ours and faster you dispose of threat - the better. 

Final note - all those computation are true for soldier, relying on guns, not abilities (even those of team-mates).
My experience with other classes is limited.
If you want to shoot things, but don't have access to ammo power, then single-shot rifles (and I think it'll be Mantis because of weight) may be more worthy for you.

Tables on pistols, SMGs and ARs are in the middle of calibrations calculations and may be available later, if they will be interesting to anybody.

ME3 did a superb job when it comes to semi auto guns(Viper? Hmm...). So good(sometime overkill: Paladin) that you come to question the need for a SR if not for W, BW or J destructive power.

[chevyguy87]

Here is what I use on my Infiltrator on Insanity This setup works wonders for me, others will vary.

Bonus Power: Energy Drain - For stripping shields and to provide an extra layer of defense to Shepard if upgraded a certain way.

Weapons:

Mantis X 
Concentration Module V
Extended Ammo V
Upgraded Cryo ammo on Reaper forces 
Upgraded Disruptor ammo on Cerberus forces

I have tried the Javelin and the Widows and I just simply do not like how heavy they are. The Raptor, Incisor, Valiant and Viper do not do enough damage for my liking. The Mantis is my workhorse, I do not use any other rifle.

Predator VII
Pistol Scope V
Extended Magazine V
This is strictly a sidearm, I only use this when I do not want to go overkill on an enemy with low health. And it looks cool in cutscenes. It also doesn't have recoil like other pistols and SMGs do.

Using that weapon setup my Recharge Speed bonus is always at a constant +200%

Armor:
(I play as Femshep and this configuration just looks good on her, she actually looks like a sniper wearing it instead of looking like a bulky juggernaut)

Head: Sentry Interface - For a shield boost which is important since Infiltrators can die very quickly.
Chest: Serrice Council - Improved damage with Energy Drain and Incinerate shots.
Shoulders: Armax Arsenal - For higher headshot damage and a slight increase in sidearm damage.
Arms: Armax Arsenal - Same as above.
Legs: Rosenkov Materials - For increasing the speed with which my tactical cloak recharges.

Any research uprgades aquired (Including the Prejak Peddlefish one) goes into Weapon Damage Shield Strength and Power Recharge with the occasional one going to power damage. Ammo capacity is redundant since both of my ammo powers are upgraded to grant me 30% more.

[capn233]

Lot's of stuff since I replied.

The only thing I care to comment on at this juncture is the muzzle climb bit.

I agree with your examples of other weapons that climb, but there is only AR Stability and I don't find any of the AR's that I use to benefit from it more than from a different mod, so that is why I don't run it.

If there was SMG Stability I probably would run it on the Hornet for example. It is much harder to fight than the Vindi or Revenant.

As for the caliber wars, the listing by energy was pretty interesting. I agree that it is near impossible to do something when you throw in all the weapon classes because the balance is just not "right."  Add effective rate of fire or recoil, and it would be maddening to attempt a precise correlation.

Actually one more thing... M855 should still be around 1600J out of a 14.5" barrel, which isn't horrible from a pure energy standpoint (sort of .44 magnum energy). Granted, the 5.56 has it's magic energy threshold (where it will upset, dependent on a host of factors). Still a whole lot more energy than a 9mm carbine or even a .357 mag lever gun, which was all I was saying.

That was more than one little thing.

edit:
Yeah I am not quite done.

Looking at the damage chart I have again, it just doesn't seem that pistols are reconcilable with rifles.  The list of SR's by energy vs real calibers was pretty cool, but on that scale I can't think of the Predator as a space G17 bc the 73dmg per shot of un upgraded Predator is more than most of the AR's (exceptions being Mattock, Vindicator, Argus, Valkyrie and the fake ARs) and higher than Indra, but approaching Incisor and Raptor.  Oddly this almost makes it seem like the Predator is basically "better" than any pistol service caliber, and is in magnum territory already (1361J).  And again that means the damage of the others is even more absurd.

Modifié par capn233, 07 mai 2012 - 01:27 .

[Athenau]

The Indra is actually not too terrible. One thing I noticed from the stats is that it has no accuracy degradation, so you're pretty much always getting the best possible accuracy when firing from cover. It's actually pretty strong with incendiary explosive since it has decent base dps and ROF, plus you can get continuous headshots from a long way out.

[Rudy Lis]

[quote]SaturnRing wrote...

 I get the north-east muzzle climb. Vertical climb doesn't bother me so much.  [/quote]

Well, then I guess they done it differently on consoles, since when I simply choose point of aim and return crosshair to it, I got nice track of bullet marks going almost vertically up, with slight fluctuations left and right. I think it is actually pretty vertical, maybe between11:55 and 12:05, speaking of clock-face.  Sometimes it's even left "V" mark on the wall. Hmm, gun dreaming of vendetta?


[quote]SaturnRing wrote...

I expect some degree of it for most weapons.[/quote]

I don't. I mean I expect muzzle-flip after every shot, but then I expect return to line of sight, not by weapon itself, of course, but by Shepard's arms (since because that's what I do when shooting). Muzzle-climb could and should be there, but it should be reasonable and cumulative. Indra is good example of it and only lack of return to line of sight slightly bothers me (but not much, same for Valiant). Raptor, on the other hand, is quite funny - should you have concentration mod and try rapid-fire session, you'll notice it will climb, and climb very fast, but at the end it will return to LoS. But, should you wait till time dilation expire or do not use concentration, than Raptor behave quite realistic way - short muzzle-flip and than return to LoS.


[quote]SaturnRing wrote...

That's pretty much what i was going for as far as sound strategy is involved. That's also why i never thought of the W, BW, Javelin or Mantis(ok maybe the Mantis) as the best SR. No doubt they're the most powerful and they get the job done for most of us. But I'd rather approach things from a versatility stanpoint: and i found the Raptor(well not entirely; more or less) to be ideal(?) in filling the gaps so to speak. I wish i could squeeze the Incisor in too...[/quote]

Well, for me - they are not best. Not any one of them.
For me "best" rifle is one that makes it's job without overshot and undershot, do it job fast and accurate way. That's Valiant or Indra. But Indra isn't actually SR, so it's Valiant. He is fast, he allows me to dispose most of small and midgame with one-two headshots (and that's on me - if I miss just a little, there will be no OSOK/TSOK), allow me quick follow-ups, fires and reloads fast and as my practice shows, it doesn't that slow when you deal with big-game (yet ammo consuming). Actually it is faster with IA/AP ammo than big guns.
And for me Mantis is not best of those "big guns" - I don't care about weight (unless I got grade X, I still have about -200% overweight (with X I have -74%), why bother?) and in terms of raw damage/bonuses it has none in comparison with rest three. Of those four it was slowest in of "banshee-drill" and on par with rest single-shots when dealing with small game.
Again, I have to remind - I don't use Adrenaline rush.

Not sure for Incirsor, since I used it only in short missions, and it's not that bad with IEA and small game (Cerberus mostly), but Raptor, as you said, quite "versatile". And since I like Mattock-style trigger, I have no problems with "clicking enemy to his death". And since you don't have Valiant and Indra, I guess that's best choice for you. And since it's possible to deal with Banshee quite fast...


[quote]SaturnRing wrote...

ME3 did a superb job when it comes to semi auto guns(Viper? Hmm...). So good(sometime overkill: Paladin) that you come to question the need for a SR if not for W, BW or J destructive power.[/quote]

For the note - I do not think it did superb job. Far from it. But, from cost-estimator point of view, I say most of guns ingame are arithmetically more or less equal - they generally do same amount of damage for same amount of ammo (relatively of total amount, not "round for round").
Few exceptions from that rule includes Shuriken, which is probably "worst gun out there" (yet I find it relatively useful for shield-stripping on long distances when there is no Tempest or Locust available, since Hornet and especially Hurricane comes with enormous muzzleclimb "out of cover" and latter also has with poor accuracy on any range beyond flash-hider) and Viper, which is now looks like "cadet" model (a.k.a. boot-camp only, not suitable for front lines). Outside of big-game drill, Incirsor is quite decent with IEA (but mostly with it). Viper can get the job done too, but doing it pretty slow and that's an issue for me, since wounded enemies fights as hard as healthy and I don't get my Shepard to be overwhelmed.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Lot's of stuff since I replied.

The only thing I care to comment on at this juncture is the muzzle climb bit.

I agree with your examples of other weapons that climb, but there is only AR Stability and I don't find any of the AR's that I use to benefit from it more than from a different mod, so that is why I don't run it.[/quote]

Well, I'm a bit tired pulling mouse six o'clock contstantly when dealing with muzzle climb, so I pferer to sacrifice some bonus and install dampner. Not that I really use it that often, since with IEA Avenger and GPR are quite shiny without it, and Mattock and Falcon doesn't need it regardless of ammo type chosen. And I don't use other guns, really.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

If there was SMG Stability I probably would run it on the Hornet for example. It is much harder to fight than the Vindi or Revenant.[/quote]

Not Hurricane?


[quote]capn233 wrote...

As for the caliber wars, the listing by energy was pretty interesting. I agree that it is near impossible to do something when you throw in all the weapon classes because the balance is just not "right." Add effective rate of fire or recoil, and it would be maddening to attempt a precise correlation.[/quote]

If we take "recoil" (if you call that delay between shots), then there is no meaning whatsoever, say Caradin (a.k.a. Palnifex) share same size/weight/delay, yet one is more powerful than another. How the hell that fits at all? It's not some Nitro Express revolver.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Actually one more thing... M855 should still be around 1600J out of a 14.5" barrel, which isn't horrible from a pure energy standpoint (sort of .44 magnum energy). Granted, the 5.56 has it's magic energy threshold (where it will upset, dependent on a host of factors). Still a whole lot more energy than a 9mm carbine or even a .357 mag lever gun, which was all I was saying. [/quote]

Well, I listed 5.56x46 there. But like I said, I decided to compare only muzzle energy, so to speak, because how we going to calculate penetrative and stopping powers of existing guns in game and correlate exactly to what and, more important - how? Especially if take AP into consideration - I still remember when one shot from Paladin killed two Guardians through their shields. What the hell energy transfer it was, KPVT?


[quote]capn233 wrote...

That was more than one little thing.[/quote]

It's always like that.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Looking at the damage chart I have again, it just doesn't seem that pistols are reconcilable with rifles. The list of SR's by energy vs real calibers was pretty cool, but on that scale I can't think of the Predator as a space G17 bc the 73dmg per shot of un upgraded Predator is more than most of the AR's (exceptions being Mattock, Vindicator, Argus, Valkyrie and the fake ARs) and higher than Indra, but approaching Incisor and Raptor. Oddly this almost makes it seem like the Predator is basically "better" than any pistol service caliber, and is in magnum territory already (1361J). And again that means the damage of the others is even more absurd.

[/quote]

Well, that's why I think that ingame weapon system is off the balance and we should compare guns only inside same category. But even there I'm not sure what to choose for Paladin and Carnifex - surely not .45 ACP nor 10 mm Auto (though I have quite limited experience with latter, Glock 20 only).


[quote]Athenau wrote...

The Indra is actually not too terrible. One thing I noticed from the stats is that it has no accuracy degradation, so you're pretty much always getting the best possible accuracy when firing from cover. It's actually pretty strong with incendiary explosive since it has decent base dps and ROF, plus you can get continuous headshots from a long way out.[/quote]

IEA turns Indra into walking apocalypse (well, attachment to walking (sometimes running and rolling) apocalypse), pretty much yes, but even with AP she's quite impressive. Without ammo whatsoever - not that much, since "banshee drill" will take about 250 rounds (yup, that's 10 mags).
Not sure for contunuous flow of headshots, even from cover on long ranges. 30 metres tops, I guess, for human size target. For 50 metres about 18 of them will hit. It's a bit hard to calculate - dem targets don't want to stand still and help science!

[SaturnRing]

chevyguy87 wrote...

Here is what I use on my Infiltrator on Insanity This setup works wonders for me, others will vary.

Bonus Power: Energy Drain - For stripping shields and to provide an extra layer of defense to Shepard if upgraded a certain way.

Weapons:

Mantis X 
Concentration Module V
Extended Ammo V
Upgraded Cryo ammo on Reaper forces 
Upgraded Disruptor ammo on Cerberus forces

I have tried the Javelin and the Widows and I just simply do not like how heavy they are. The Raptor, Incisor, Valiant and Viper do not do enough damage for my liking. The Mantis is my workhorse, I do not use any other rifle.

Predator VII
Pistol Scope V
Extended Magazine V
This is strictly a sidearm, I only use this when I do not want to go overkill on an enemy with low health. And it looks cool in cutscenes. It also doesn't have recoil like other pistols and SMGs do.

Using that weapon setup my Recharge Speed bonus is always at a constant +200%

Armor:
(I play as Femshep and this configuration just looks good on her, she actually looks like a sniper wearing it instead of looking like a bulky juggernaut)

Head: Sentry Interface - For a shield boost which is important since Infiltrators can die very quickly.
Chest: Serrice Council - Improved damage with Energy Drain and Incinerate shots.
Shoulders: Armax Arsenal - For higher headshot damage and a slight increase in sidearm damage.
Arms: Armax Arsenal - Same as above.
Legs: Rosenkov Materials - For increasing the speed with which my tactical cloak recharges.

Any research uprgades aquired (Including the Prejak Peddlefish one) goes into Weapon Damage Shield Strength and Power Recharge with the occasional one going to power damage. Ammo capacity is redundant since both of my ammo powers are upgraded to grant me 30% more.

I play as a femshep infiltrator; i also carry around the Mantis and the Predator a lot. As odd as it seems i'm not big in using mods except for stabilizers and extra ammo. I have a question though: is level V where upgrades max out?

Modifié par SaturnRing, 07 mai 2012 - 02:09 .

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

For the note - I do not think it did superb job. Far from it. But, from cost-estimator point of view, I say most of guns ingame are arithmetically more or less equal - they generally do same amount of damage for same amount of ammo (relatively of total amount, not "round for round").
Few exceptions from that rule includes Shuriken, which is probably "worst gun out there" (yet I find it relatively useful for shield-stripping on long distances when there is no Tempest or Locust available, since Hornet and especially Hurricane comes with enormous muzzleclimb "out of cover" and latter also has with poor accuracy on any range beyond flash-hider) and Viper, which is now looks like "cadet" model (a.k.a. boot-camp only, not suitable for front lines). Outside of big-game drill, Incirsor is quite decent with IEA (but mostly with it). Viper can get the job done too, but doing it pretty slow and that's an issue for me, since wounded enemies fights as hard as healthy and I don't get my Shepard to be overwhelmed.

I'm hopeless. The Shuriken is also one of my favorite. I use it all the time. In blind fire I get less climb from the Hornet.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 07 mai 2012 - 02:52 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

I have a question though: is level V where upgrades max out?

Well, even in my third playthrough there is no higher.

SaturnRing wrote...

I'm hopeless. The Shuriken is also one of my favorite. I use it all the time. In blind fire I get less climb from the Hornet.

You not hopeless, I used Shuriken exactly same way - blind fire from afar on the move (generally to strip shields on Cerberus, and sometime Geth, rarely on Reapers). With IEA and both mag upgrades it could bring Banshee down quite fast actually, but almost any other ammo or mods and most SMGs are going to hell on supersonic.
For example, "naked" Tempest uses around 150 IEA rounds to kill Banshee without mods. Locust - around 160 IEA rounds. Shuriken 228, Hornet 96 and Hurricane around 280, but it's far more tricky - Shuriken has quite a delay between bursts, but at least relatively accurate. Hornet has muzzle climb, but if you can negate it, it's quite devastating. Hurricane is worst of all due that muzzle climb and spread. And shooting in short bursts doesn't helps that much. Yet it helps, but firing that way cancels his advantages - RoF and damage output.
Maybe muzzle climb is easier to negate on controller, since you don't actually move it anywhere, unlike mouse I forced to "plane" on my table over and over. Too much for multiplatform, heh.

[capn233]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Well, I'm a bit tired pulling mouse six o'clock contstantly when dealing with muzzle climb, so I pferer to sacrifice some bonus and install dampner. Not that I really use it that often, since with IEA Avenger and GPR are quite shiny without it, and Mattock and Falcon doesn't need it regardless of ammo type chosen. And I don't use other guns, really.
....
Not Hurricane?

Technically I don't have the Hurricane , but I only meant to give one example of a non-AR with muzzle climb anyway.  Sure Hurricane would be a candidate.  Even so, Vindicator especially is fairly easy for me to use out of cover.  Add to the fact that PC users have mouse sensitivity settings to help us.

If we take "recoil" (if you call that delay between shots), then there is no meaning whatsoever, say Caradin (a.k.a. Palnifex) share same size/weight/delay, yet one is more powerful than another. How the hell that fits at all? It's not some Nitro Express revolver.

I don't like defining recoil as delay between shots, not in game or real life.  At least not if we are talking the rate of fire limits imposed on the designs on the in game weapons.  Like Viper.  Or even the Carnifex or Paladin.  The recoil in game is actually represented by reticle bloom and muzzle climb, which are counteracted by separate mods.  This is something of a two variable approximation of actual weapon behavior I suppose.  Depending on how decent a shooter you are then I suppose you would always rapidly return on target in between shots, with the delay corresponding to the "recoil" of the weapon.  With these little rail guns you would assume capacitor charging, or something of that nature, is what is really limiting the actual rate of fire and why they are slower between shots than a semi-automatic.

I play with the Carnifex and Paladin a whole lot more in MP than in SP (slight divergence, but applicable) and no, the similar accuracy and reticle bloom does not make sense from a 21st century weapon perspective.  My bigger issue with them is that they do not remind me of any handgun above .357 magnum levels of power in terms of usable rate of fire.  Maybe I am demonstrating that I am a poor pistol marksman, but really they just seem like a hotter semi-auto cartridge with ROF artificially limited based on the how essentially full accuracy has returned by the time you are ready for the next shot, despite how wild the reticle looks in the period where you can't fire anyway.  I know recoil is all relative anyway, an Airweight snub in .38 might feel like more recoil than a heavy 4 inch .357mag, despite the difference in power.

Well, I listed 5.56x46 there. But like I said, I decided to compare only muzzle energy, so to speak, because how we going to calculate penetrative and stopping powers of existing guns in game and correlate exactly to what and, more important - how? Especially if take AP into consideration - I still remember when one shot from Paladin killed two Guardians through their shields. What the hell energy transfer it was, KPVT?

Now I am getting lost, but that comment was back to the Raptor discussion about M4 vs my claim of pistol caliber carbine.  From the perspective relative to the Widow as .50BMG it looks like it is about 5.56 levels of muzzle energy so perhaps you were right all along.  I made that comment without looking at all the damages, and really by applying the wrong analogy to the Predator (9mm).

I'll just drop discussion about various 5.56 ammo and effectiveness in real life as having limited bearing on in game weapons.  Even if I think a particular ammo is probably effective w/i 150m and even if some authority says it is good to 656m.

As for AP, I don't think that should have happened unless you had AP ammo or Pistol Piercing equipped.  If so then you can shoot them both.  I think your question is how does it do damage and kill them if it doesn't transfer energy to them though.  In that case the real answer is that energy transfer is not the mechanism of wounding, despite pontification on the subject.  Penetration of vital structures causing loss of CNS function or hemodynamic collapse is.  I know this doesn't help us with a computer game model of enemies with a certain amount of points that you subtract.  I am avoiding hydrostatic shockwaves for the purposes of the above.

ME weapons were supposed to fire projectiles the size of a grain of sand at "significant" fractions of c.  I suppose if they do actually transfer energy then that would cause wounding.  Consider that a 124gr 9mm bullet would have 10kt of kinetic energy if it was moving at a third of c.  I personally think the effect if you shot someone would be a lot closer to shooting them with 9mm NATO than a tactical nuclear weapon though.  At any rate, maybe that means I am agreeing with you, I don't know.

Well, that's why I think that ingame weapon system is off the balance and we should compare guns only inside same category. But even there I'm not sure what to choose for Paladin and Carnifex - surely not .45 ACP nor 10 mm Auto (though I have quite limited experience with latter, Glock 20 only).

Paladin or Carnifex are way too powerful for those.  Especially since .45 ACP isn't really energetically superior to 9mm anyway (with decent loads in each).  10mm would be a whole lot closer, even if it still doesn't have the energy... I don't know.  If I have some time later maybe I will do a pure pistol list and stratify it.

As for the Indra, used it on Cerberus Attack and Turian Platoon yesterday.  Ridiculous in the hands of a soldier.  But I am not prepared to call it the best SR.  I still think BW and Val are better in that role, and better across more classes.  Indra is very good on Soldier though (if you have SR Piercing and "Inferno" ammo of course).

[chevyguy87]

SaturnRing wrote...

I play as a femshep infiltrator; i also carry around the Mantis and the Predator a lot. As odd as it seems i'm not big in using mods except for stabilizers and extra ammo. I have a question though: is level V where upgrades max out?

Wow here I thought I was one of a handful who still uses the Mantis and yes level V is the max for weapon mods.

[capn233]

Alright, this list is not the end all and be all... I did get it from a single source (Winchester, with one exception) but as it is across lines, actual numbers are just representations.

.38 spl 158gr - 271J
9mm 124gr - 525J
.45 ACP 230gr - 604J
.410 Judge 000 - 637J
.40 SW 165gr - 645J
.357 SIG 125gr - 686J
.357 Magnum 158gr - 725J
10mm Auto 175gr - 880J
.44 Magnum 250gr - 1175J
.454 Casull 260gr - 2535J
.500 SW magnum 400gr - 3377J

Assuming Paladin is .500 SW, listing base damage for level X (if my numbers are right) you get something somewhat interesting...

Eagle - 53.1 - 408J - This is lower than cheap 115gr 9mm, unless out of a short barrel. Higher than .38spl and .380 though.
Arc Pistol - 71.7 - 547J - sort of hot 9mm
Predator - 73.5 - 567J - actually moderate .45 ACP energy (Federal Hydrashok 230gr...)
Talon - 90.1 - 692J - a bit higher than what the Judge puts out, but in the neighborhood
Phalanx - 143.5 - 1104J - little weaker than the .44 mag load above
Carnifex - 345.1 - 2657J - a little hotter than that .454 Casull load
Paladin - 438.7 - 3377J defined as .500 SW from above

Weird how it goes. Granted those energy numbers aren't exact. You can get several hundred joule swings...