550 réponses à ce sujet

[Rudy Lis]

[quote]capn233 wrote...

Technically I don't have the Hurricane , but I only meant to give one example of a non-AR with muzzle climb anyway.  Sure Hurricane would be a candidate.  Even so, Vindicator especially is fairly easy for me to use out of cover.  Add to the fact that PC users have mouse sensitivity settings to help us.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. But I wasn't able to find vertical/horizontal speed split, since I don't want to perform about turn while compensating Hurricane muzzle climb (yes, I'm exagerrating). And by my opinion that climb is just another sign how much they value their PC part of market, since it's definitely overthought.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I don't like defining recoil as delay between shots, not in game or real life. [/quote]

Me neither, and IRL it's definitely not. And I don't see any explanation of that "phenomenon".


[quote]capn233 wrote...

At least not if we are talking the rate of fire limits imposed on the designs on the in game weapons.  Like Viper.  Or even the Carnifex or Paladin.  The recoil in game is actually represented by reticle bloom and muzzle climb, which are counteracted by separate mods.  This is something of a two variable approximation of actual weapon behavior I suppose.  Depending on how decent a shooter you are then I suppose you would always rapidly return on target in between shots, with the delay corresponding to the "recoil" of the weapon.  With these little rail guns you would assume capacitor charging, or something of that nature, is what is really limiting the actual rate of fire and why they are slower between shots than a semi-automatic.[/quote]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Not your theory (I thought same direction) - game implementation.
Shepard is N7 (though in ME3 I begin to doubt that), so he should be proficient with anything that shoots, so any gun should have Mattock/Raider style delay between shots. If there is delay - make it "feelable", like that charge on Arc Pistol, Geth Plasma Shotgun or Javelin. There is even no description on Palnifex slow RoF, no to mention Viper, which is my biggest pet peeve, because his ME2>ME3 transition is worst of all. Mattock lost only accuracy (yet on body shots it's still decent) and gamage, GPS,,, Did it lost anything? Phalanx lost power, yet compensated it with mag capacity and still quite fast and accurate.
Raptor on his own doesn't make sense - Nemesis uses him like Javelin, so should we, but no, Raptor is just Mattock wannabe in SR slot. So, instead of giving us one decent rifle, they murdered ME2 veteran, made questionable Mattock analgue in SR slot,and gave us almost good old Viper, but - only for CE/DDE and with magazine, imported from some anti-gunner state with capacity cut down to 25% and broken total amount of spare ammo? Too much for "tons of guns".


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I play with the Carnifex and Paladin a whole lot more in MP than in SP (slight divergence, but applicable) and no, the similar accuracy and reticle bloom does not make sense from a 21st century weapon perspective.  My bigger issue with them is that they do not remind me of any handgun above .357 magnum levels of power in terms of usable rate of fire.  Maybe I am demonstrating that I am a poor pistol marksman, but really they just seem like a hotter semi-auto cartridge with ROF artificially limited based on the how essentially full accuracy has returned by the time you are ready for the next shot, despite how wild the reticle looks in the period where you can't fire anyway.  I know recoil is all relative anyway, an Airweight snub in .38 might feel like more recoil than a heavy 4 inch .357mag, despite the difference in power.[/QUOTE]

Well, you said it yourself - airweight. Should there be difference in weight between Paladin and Carnifex, than, from logic point of view same felt recoil and somewhat delay between shots could be explained via that difference.
Joke is - it is Paladin who supposedly "compact concealed carry" pistol with great power (and trade-off power/capacity seems logical, but not it's grade), so his recoil should be enormous. But no, no difference. And what I definitely not get - why's compact? Carnifex folds himself into pretty small shape.
Regarding reticles - them damn show it to us. I don't demand OFP/ArmA style shaking, especially when character is wounder (yet ME1 sniper scope sway was greater), but show that crosshair moving then. All I see is pretty compact crosshair, yet I can't shoot.
And speaking of power - my favorite "banshee drill". Phalanx - 48 rounds, Paladin - 16 rounds, Carnifex - 18 rounds (yes, that little difference). As usual, grade X, mod V, mods - AP and barrel, IEA, Cerberus Armour.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Now I am getting lost, but that comment was back to the Raptor discussion about M4 vs my claim of pistol caliber carbine.  From the perspective relative to the Widow as .50BMG it looks like it is about 5.56 levels of muzzle energy so perhaps you were right all along.  I made that comment without looking at all the damages, and really by applying the wrong analogy to the Predator (9mm).[/QUOTE]

Well, Predator could be our space-age 9mm, but we need to build a consensus on what IRL ammo we will use as our reference point for future calculations. Maybe Eagle should be chosen as 9mm, since I fail to imagine any decent military grade handgun with anything smaller (if only those 4.6x30mm and 5.7x27mm but they approximately from same grade of muzzle energy).


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I'll just drop discussion about various 5.56 ammo and effectiveness in real life as having limited bearing on in game weapons.  Even if I think a particular ammo is probably effective w/i 150m and even if some authority says it is good to 656m.[/QUOTE]

656? so if I'm 657 from M4 armed guy with 5.56 I'm absolutely safe?  Just kidding, of course.
Ammo efficiency agains live targets (since I think I know your "point of reference") is quite "unsolid" because those live targets quite sturdy and upredictable. I think we both can list several cases when somebody with apparently lethal wounds survived or somebody with apparently harmless wound died. One of my former LE colleagues like this saying: "tickets to better of worlds are sold elsewhere".
So I'd choose ballistic gelatin. Or soap. Wet newspapers also will work. But I doubt any "respectable" ammo manufacturer will use "it penetrates three feet of soap!" ad.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

As for AP, I don't think that should have happened unless you had AP ammo or Pistol Piercing equipped.  If so then you can shoot them both.  [/QUOTE]

I had. Both. AP penetrative and AP mod. IIRC I was able to duplicate that trick once on Eden Prime, but with Barrel and without AP mod, only with ammo. But I can't say for sure, on Eden Prime I haven't seen secong Guardian healthbar at all, maybe he got heart attack.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I think your question is how does it do damage and kill them if it doesn't transfer energy to them though.  In that case the real answer is that energy transfer is not the mechanism of wounding, despite pontification on the subject.  Penetration of vital structures causing loss of CNS function or hemodynamic collapse is.  I know this doesn't help us with a computer game model of enemies with a certain amount of points that you subtract.  I am avoiding hydrostatic shockwaves for the purposes of the above.[/QUOTE]

Well, my question, actually, was from "wut?" category, sort of "whadafuq" this gun is, if I can do that with pistol, but cannot do with rifle? I like pistols, but I know their limitations.
Speaking of rest real-live corellation of bullet wounds and ballistic doesn't makes pretty much sense. And if you can blame Reaper forces and Geth for denying our reality and substituting it with their own, it's hard to do with humans. Maybe a bit reaperized, yet still human, at least from bullet point of view.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

ME weapons were supposed to fire projectiles the size of a grain of sand at "significant" fractions of c.  I suppose if they do actually transfer energy then that would cause wounding.  Consider that a 124gr 9mm bullet would have 10kt of kinetic energy if it was moving at a third of c.  I personally think the effect if you shot someone would be a lot closer to shooting them with 9mm NATO than a tactical nuclear weapon though.  At any rate, maybe that means I am agreeing with you, I don't know.[/QUOTE]

honestly I don't really got that weapon concept well, I know, I join army to avoid univercity, (though generally people doing exactly opposite thing), so I'm not proficient with that "high-tech mumbo jumbo" yet with my limited knowledge of practical physics I still don't get the idea of grains sped up to hypervelocities. Especially ME2 hypervelocity of 50 metres per second.
And regarding nuke equvalent - it doesn't makes practical sense. Especially in case of immediate stop (what by my limited knowledge means full energy transfer - what will be with shields and how bout temperature increase in point of impact, i.e. will it blend melt?


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Paladin or Carnifex are way too powerful for those.  Especially since .45 ACP isn't really energetically superior to 9mm anyway (with decent loads in each).  10mm would be a whole lot closer, even if it still doesn't have the energy... I don't know.  If I have some time later maybe I will do a pure pistol list and stratify it.[/QUOTE]

Well, .45 ACP isn't champ when it comes to muzzle energy, but it has good energy transfer (a.k.a. stopping power). 45-70 on the other hand has energy, yet I find it quite... ehm... questionable for fitting into concealed carry police pistol.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

As for the Indra, used it on Cerberus Attack and Turian Platoon yesterday.  Ridiculous in the hands of a soldier.  But I am not prepared to call it the best SR.  I still think BW and Val are better in that role, and better across more classes.  Indra is very good on Soldier though (if you have SR Piercing and "Inferno" ammo of course). [/quote]



I never said it was best, I said it is fastest with decent ammo (IA/AP) and with IEA - it's is definitely the funniest, since one and only problematic enemy for her in whole game is phantom, for obvious reasons.
With other types of ammo she's not that shiny - DA is decent when it comes to stun naked enemies and quite funny, but raw damage is weak and I don't get purpose of CA - on small game both versions of 6th step are more or less decent, but on big game it's like there is no ammo at all. WA is shine only when it comes to rip through the barrier, since raw damage again, quite low, yet better than DA/CA.



[quote]capn233 wrote...

Alright, this list is not the end all and be all... I did get it from a single source (Winchester, with one exception) but as it is across lines, actual numbers are just representations.

.38 spl 158gr - 271J
9mm 124gr - 525J
.45 ACP 230gr - 604J
.410 Judge 000 - 637J
.40 SW 165gr - 645J
.357 SIG 125gr - 686J
.357 Magnum 158gr - 725J
10mm Auto 175gr - 880J
.44 Magnum 250gr - 1175J
.454 Casull 260gr - 2535J
.500 SW magnum 400gr - 3377J

Assuming Paladin is .500 SW, listing base damage for level X (if my numbers are right) you get something somewhat interesting...

Eagle - 53.1 - 408J - This is lower than cheap 115gr 9mm, unless out of a short barrel. Higher than .38spl and .380 though.
Arc Pistol - 71.7 - 547J - sort of hot 9mm
Predator - 73.5 - 567J - actually moderate .45 ACP energy (Federal Hydrashok 230gr...)
Talon - 90.1 - 692J - a bit higher than what the Judge puts out, but in the neighborhood
Phalanx - 143.5 - 1104J - little weaker than the .44 mag load above
Carnifex - 345.1 - 2657J - a little hotter than that .454 Casull load
Paladin - 438.7 - 3377J defined as .500 SW from above

Weird how it goes. Granted those energy numbers aren't exact. You can get several hundred joule swings...


[/quote]


Here is list I mentioned ("Banshee drill"):

Phalanx - 48 rounds.
Talon - 17 (shoot from 25 metres and closer).
Arc pistol - 68
Scorpion - 15
Predator - 72
Paladin - 16
Eagle - 90
Carnifex - 18.

Now "internet damage table":

Phalanx - 143.
Talon - 90 (per pellet, I think there are 6 of those).
Arc pistol - 71 (non-charged, I assume)
Scorpion - 469.
Predator - 73 (lvl X?)
Paladin - 438
Eagle - 53
Carnifex - 345.

As you say, let's take Paladin as 100% [in brackets - weapon power relative of Paladin, according to my T&E]

Phalanx - 32.65% [33.33%]
Talon - 123.29% (per 6 pellets) or 20.55% (per pellet). [94.12%]
Arc pistol - 16.21% [23.53%]
Scorpion - 107.08% [106.67%]
Predator - 16.67% [22.22%]
Paladin - 100% [100%]
Eagle - 12.1% [17.78%]
Carnifex - 78.76%. [88.89%]

If we choose Eagle as 100%, then table will look like [in brackets - weapon power relative of Eagle, according to my T&E]

Phalanx - 269.81% [187.5%].
Talon - 760.56% (per 6 pellets) or 126.76% (per pellet) [529.41%]
Arc pistol - 133.96% [132.35%]
Scorpion - 884.91% [600%]
Predator - 137.74% [125%]
Paladin - 826.42% [562%]
Eagle - 100% [100%]
Carnifex - 650.94% [500%]

Total damage fired (single shot power according to internet table multiplied via number of shots fired)
Phalanx - 6864.
Talon - 9180.
Arc pistol - 4828.
Scorpion - 7035.
Predator - 5256.
Paladin - 7008.
Eagle - 4770.
Carnifex - 6210.

Now to IRL muzzle energy. If Eagle is our 9x19 (non +), then, if we assume that energy as 520 J, our table will look like:
Phalanx - 1403J.
Talon - 3955J.
Arc pistol - 691J.
Scorpion - 4602J.
Predator - 716J
Paladin - 4297J
Eagle - 520J
Carnifex -3385J.

Let's check ammo tables now.

7.62×25mm Tokarev - 760J could be Predator
.500 S&W Special or .44 Magnum are about 1200-1700J. Phalanx?
.45 ACP 600-700J, Arc Pistol?
.357 SIG - same about 700J, could be Arc too.
.45-70 - 2300 - 4600 J, could be Talon, Paladin, Scorpion and Carnifex

Of course, Arc Pistol, Talon and Scorpion could be thrown out due their projectiles.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 07 mai 2012 - 09:27 .

[capn233]

Rudy Lis wrote...
Indeed. But I wasn't able to find vertical/horizontal speed split, since I don't want to perform about turn while compensating Hurricane muzzle climb (yes, I'm exagerrating). And by my opinion that climb is just another sign how much they value their PC part of market, since it's definitely overthought.

They are all easier if not fired from the hip.  Personally I don't think they thought about PC's at all when coming up with the system.  I am not really sure what they were thinking when they were making 90% of this game though.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Not your theory (I thought same direction) - game implementation.
Shepard is N7 (though in ME3 I begin to doubt that), so he should be proficient with anything that shoots, so any gun should have Mattock/Raider style delay between shots. If there is delay - make it "feelable", like that charge on Arc Pistol, Geth Plasma Shotgun or Javelin. There is even no description on Palnifex slow RoF, no to mention Viper, which is my biggest pet peeve, because his ME2>ME3 transition is worst of all. Mattock lost only accuracy (yet on body shots it's still decent) and gamage, GPS,,, Did it lost anything? Phalanx lost power, yet compensated it with mag capacity and still quite fast and accurate.
Raptor on his own doesn't make sense - Nemesis uses him like Javelin, so should we, but no, Raptor is just Mattock wannabe in SR slot. So, instead of giving us one decent rifle, they murdered ME2 veteran, made questionable Mattock analgue in SR slot,and gave us almost good old Viper, but - only for CE/DDE and with magazine, imported from some anti-gunner state with capacity cut down to 25% and broken total amount of spare ammo? Too much for "tons of guns".

Well too bad

Without a post from the devs it is speculation.  However, if you were desigining a weapon to have a certain amount of damage per shot (maybe bc you had a damage target or some such) and you have a weight and size target, you might not be able to get more rate of fire.  Mattock fires a whole lot less damage per shot than the Carnifex or Paladin, with longer rails.  That means it needs less current per shot if it is anything like a railgun.

Do I agree with how they have balanced the weapons, nope.

Well, you said it yourself - airweight. Should there be difference in weight between Paladin and Carnifex, than, from logic point of view same felt recoil and somewhat delay between shots could be explained via that difference.
Joke is - it is Paladin who supposedly "compact concealed carry" pistol with great power (and trade-off power/capacity seems logical, but not it's grade), so his recoil should be enormous. But no, no difference. And what I definitely not get - why's compact? Carnifex folds himself into pretty small shape.
Regarding reticles - them damn show it to us. I don't demand OFP/ArmA style shaking, especially when character is wounder (yet ME1 sniper scope sway was greater), but show that crosshair moving then. All I see is pretty compact crosshair, yet I can't shoot.
And speaking of power - my favorite "banshee drill". Phalanx - 48 rounds, Paladin - 16 rounds, Carnifex - 18 rounds (yes, that little difference). As usual, grade X, mod V, mods - AP and barrel, IEA, Cerberus Armour.

Now I am going to have to go back and run those two pistols without the scope to see what is going on again.

But yes, the compact weapon should have more "recoil" than the lower powered one.  But both actually weigh the same in SP so perhaps the difference wouldn't be all that substantial, but it should be there.  Interestingly, in the sheet I am looking at the Paladin does have higher numbers for "recoil" (.437 vs .262), "zoom recoil" (0.612 vs .437),  but what those numbers actually do is beyond my understanding at the moment.

Well, Predator could be our space-age 9mm, but we need to build a consensus on what IRL ammo we will use as our reference point for future calculations. Maybe Eagle should be chosen as 9mm, since I fail to imagine any decent military grade handgun with anything smaller (if only those 4.6x30mm and 5.7x27mm but they approximately from same grade of muzzle energy).

 I am glad I don't have the Eagle.

656? so if I'm 657 from M4 armed guy with 5.56 I'm absolutely safe?  Just kidding, of course.
Ammo efficiency agains live targets (since I think I know your "point of reference") is quite "unsolid" because those live targets quite sturdy and upredictable. I think we both can list several cases when somebody with apparently lethal wounds survived or somebody with apparently harmless wound died. One of my former LE colleagues like this saying: "tickets to better of worlds are sold elsewhere".
So I'd choose ballistic gelatin. Or soap. Wet newspapers also will work. But I doubt any "respectable" ammo manufacturer will use "it penetrates three feet of soap!" ad.

Ha I think that is supposedly the "maximum" range, maybe my number is off.  It seems a little far, esepcially for something that was not designed for a carbine in the first place.  Fortunately M855 and M193 are at least as good as any other available 5.56 loads, or even 6.8 SPC... even out of a carbine...

This is too off-topic maybe, I dunno.  It would never had been a discussion if the US didn't insist on 7.62 after WWII and forced that on NATO instead of adopting .270 or .280 British.

I had. Both. AP penetrative and AP mod. IIRC I was able to duplicate that trick once on Eden Prime, but with Barrel and without AP mod, only with ammo. But I can't say for sure, on Eden Prime I haven't seen secong Guardian healthbar at all, maybe he got heart attack...

Well, my question, actually, was from "wut?" category, sort of "whadafuq" this gun is, if I can do that with pistol, but cannot do with rifle? I like pistols, but I know their limitations.

I think I am missing something here.  I know you can do two Guardians with a Widow because I have done that in single and multiplayer.  Also killed multiples with the Black Widow too (with help).  In game it only seems that total cover penetration distance matters, minus damage reduction from doing so.

honestly I don't really got that weapon concept well, I know, I join army to avoid univercity, (though generally people doing exactly opposite thing), so I'm not proficient with that "high-tech mumbo jumbo" yet with my limited knowledge of practical physics I still don't get the idea of grains sped up to hypervelocities. Especially ME2 hypervelocity of 50 metres per second.
And regarding nuke equvalent - it doesn't makes practical sense. Especially in case of immediate stop (what by my limited knowledge means full energy transfer - what will be with shields and how bout temperature increase in point of impact, i.e. will it blend melt?

I only mention that example because I calculated it one time to see how fast a 9mm bullet would have to go to have that much energy.

No it doesn't make much sense perhaps.  It almost certainly could never transfer that much energy.

Well, .45 ACP isn't champ when it comes to muzzle energy, but it has good energy transfer (a.k.a. stopping power). 45-70 on the other hand has energy, yet I find it quite... ehm... questionable for fitting into concealed carry police pistol.

Perhaps .45 ACP is pretty good.  It is certainly better than 9mm supressed, but I don't know about at full velocity.  At any rate, I don't think energy transfer is all that important outside of using work to penetrate the target and damage something.

I never said it was best, I said it is fastest with decent ammo (IA/AP) and with IEA - it's is definitely the funniest, since one and only problematic enemy for her in whole game is phantom, for obvious reasons.
With other types of ammo she's not that shiny - DA is decent when it comes to stun naked enemies and quite funny, but raw damage is weak and I don't get purpose of CA - on small game both versions of 6th step are more or less decent, but on big game it's like there is no ammo at all. WA is shine only when it comes to rip through the barrier, since raw damage again, quite low, yet better than DA/CA.

I know you didn't.  Some people earlier in the thread said it was best.  I did soften my opinion on it a bit using it more.

pistols

Doh, I bungled the Talon calc if the base is per pellet.

I still prefer .500 SW magnum for top end.  It can certainly hit 4000J in a pistol (even though the ammo I referenced didn't).

Modifié par capn233, 07 mai 2012 - 11:17 .

[Rudy Lis]

[quote]capn233 wrote...

They are all easier if not fired from the hip.  [/QUOTE]

I don't fire from the hip. I don't fire from cover without aiming. That's my protests!


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Personally I don't think they thought about PC's at all when coming up with the system.  I am not really sure what they were thinking when they were making 90% of this game though.[/quote]

Finally! I thought I was alone!


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Well too bad [/QUOTE]

What, where? 


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Without a post from the devs it is speculation.  [/quote]

Nope, it's calibrations computations. Unfortunately they are busy now and not interested into talking to us, while we stomping on their artistic integrity.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

However, if you were desigining a weapon to have a certain amount of damage per shot (maybe bc you had a damage target or some such) and you have a weight and size target, you might not be able to get more rate of fire.  Mattock fires a whole lot less damage per shot than the Carnifex or Paladin, with longer rails.  That means it needs less current per shot if it is anything like a railgun.[/quote]

Well, equation involving damage, RoF, mag capacity, mag reload time, total amount of ammo carried is quite interesting, actually.
Still, I don't buy concept of pistol being more powerful than rifle. Regardless of currents, mass effect mumbo-jumbo and "but the balance". Even if we use ingame values of masses/weights of weapons, somehow I doubt we will be able to correlate them somehow to battery charge or anything. Plus dem heatsinks.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Do I agree with how they have balanced the weapons, nope. [/quote]

Consensus built. Will fortify?


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Now I am going to have to go back and run those two pistols without the scope to see what is going on again.

But yes, the compact weapon should have more "recoil" than the lower powered one.  But both actually weigh the same in SP so perhaps the difference wouldn't be all that substantial, but it should be there.  Interestingly, in the sheet I am looking at the Paladin does have higher numbers for "recoil" (.437 vs .262), "zoom recoil" (0.612 vs .437),  but what those numbers actually do is beyond my understanding at the moment.[/quote]

Those numbers give me nothing, actually. Yes, I noticed that Paladin's muzzle climb is bit higher than Carnifex's, not sure for RoF: 
Paladin can do 7 shots per 6 second: 4>R>3.
Carnifex can do 9 shots per 6 second: 6>R>3.
With mag extention.
Paladin 9 shots: 7>R>2.
Carnifex 10 shots: 10>R.

Paladin empties extended mag (7 rounds) in about 4 seconds. For same time Carnifex shots... 7 rounds.

So yes, slightly higher muzzle climb is present, Id say 30% (visually), but RoF appers to be nearly same.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I am glad I don't have the Eagle.[/quote]

Why? It's pretty funny one. Requires IEA, of course, or long distance where enemy can't get you and AP.



[quote]capn233 wrote...

Ha I think that is supposedly the "maximum" range, maybe my number is off.  It seems a little far, esepcially for something that was not designed for a carbine in the first place.  Fortunately M855 and M193 are at least as good as any other available 5.56 loads, or even 6.8 SPC... even out of a carbine... [/quote]

IIRC M885 IS green tip. Penetration-based mostly, not stopping power. We don't have access to them and cannot use them for hunt, but can use "better stoppers" from 5.56/.223 plethora, well, when it comes to stopping power - those rounds better be layed off, if you expect something really bigger than, say, wolf.
Not that I don't like those rounds or, say, AR-15 platform, quite the contrary.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

This is too off-topic maybe, I dunno.  It would never had been a discussion if the US didn't insist on 7.62 after WWII and forced that on NATO instead of adopting .270 or .280 British.[/quote]

Maybe, I've read interesting things on that cartridge, actually. But as world "developes in cycles" you'll never know where it'll twist.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I think I am missing something here.  I know you can do two Guardians with a Widow because I have done that in single and multiplayer.  Also killed multiples with the Black Widow too (with help).  In game it only seems that total cover penetration distance matters, minus damage reduction from doing so.[/quote]

Well, I really like to see real formulaes for calculating "ignoring armour" and other stuff on all that thread.
But my point was mostly "why pistol is so powerful"? I know it's game and "but the balance", but I still don't like that idea. Good stopping power on soft targets, staggering on armoured ones - fine, totally up for it. Being able to deal with armour like that? Ahem, when I see how sometimes supposedly AMR can't do **** versus relatively weak target - it makes me laugh.
Plus whole idea of lot of enemies without protection. I know it was PITA in ME2 to strip defences from everyone to use some tech/biotic combos or at least whach pack of husks with concussive shot but seeing whole lot of Cerberus Assault Troopers going "naked" - without shields or armour? What's that - whole new meaning of "going commando"?


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I only mention that example because I calculated it one time to see how fast a 9mm bullet would have to go to have that much energy.

No it doesn't make much sense perhaps.  It almost certainly could never transfer that much energy.[/quote]

It depends on how it will be stopped.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Perhaps .45 ACP is pretty good.  It is certainly better than 9mm supressed, but I don't know about at full velocity.  At any rate, I don't think energy transfer is all that important outside of using work to penetrate the target and damage something.[/quote]

Well, .45 ACP is subsonic, 9x19 is supersonic.
And energy transfer is very important thing, actually. If you see enemy - he sees you, so it's in you best interests to neutralize him as fast as possible. If bullet with uber-energy just flies throught target leaving minimal energy in the target, I doubt it will stop it. At least that what they read us on lectures.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I know you didn't.  Some people earlier in the thread said it was best.  I did soften my opinion on it a bit using it more.[/quote]

I think she is fastest. Plus don't really needed that Barrel/Scope stuff, so you can pack spare ammo (and that will be a huge pyle of it - about 200 rounds, yay!) and AP mod by default. I think my Indra + IEA walkthrough is at least 30 minutes shorter than any of Valiant's (not to mention BW's). Yet I didn't do "solo" Indra - I used GPS/Stasis on Phantoms, which actually sole problematic enemy for Indra, threw some frags here and there (generally against Nemesis and Phantoms on Citadel and Cronus) and used Tempest/Locust on Banshee's barriers occasionally, but I did same thing for Valiant. However, with Indra Ammo supply that is the problem only in London, rest missions provides an ample supply of spare clips on the go.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

Doh, I bungled the Talon calc if the base is per pellet.[/quote]

If it was for whole volley, I doubt anyone would use it.


[quote]capn233 wrote...

I still prefer .500 SW magnum for top end.  It can certainly hit 4000J in a pistol (even though the ammo I referenced didn't).
[/quote]

Not that I don't like revolvers, but I think relying on revolver ammo for semi-autos (and they, supposedly are, only Talon is revolver) seems strange. Yes, I know, we have no other options. .223 pistol  "I revenged for Pugsley" from Fallout anyone?

[Hellfire257]

Javelin, because of ZWWHOOPP!

Hey Rudy, if you're looking for awesome 556 rounds check out the Mk.262.

[Rudy Lis]

Hellfire257 wrote...

Javelin, because of ZWWHOOPP!

So, that's who was that guard from Noveria...

Hellfire257 wrote...

Hey Rudy, if you're looking for awesome 556 rounds check out the Mk.262.

I doubt I find it in local hunter's stores. And even if I will, local ammo prices are exorbitant. But I'll try, thanks.

[capn233]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Those numbers give me nothing, actually. Yes, I noticed that Paladin's muzzle climb is bit higher than Carnifex's, not sure for RoF: 
Paladin can do 7 shots per 6 second: 4>R>3.
Carnifex can do 9 shots per 6 second: 6>R>3.
With mag extention.
Paladin 9 shots: 7>R>2.
Carnifex 10 shots: 10>R.

Paladin empties extended mag (7 rounds) in about 4 seconds. For same time Carnifex shots... 7 rounds.

So yes, slightly higher muzzle climb is present, Id say 30% (visually), but RoF appers to be nearly same.

Bought a Paladin and shot at some targets at the range with it and the Phalanx actually.

I think the "recoil" numbers are what cause muzzle climb in these, without the logical return to target.  Basically just pressing fire walks the shot up if you don't reaim.  This is a lot worse for Paladin than Phalanx.  I didn't have the Carnifex at this point.  I guess reticle bloom is a different variable, although practically it should be affected by recoil.

At any rate, the main problem is the bloom is basically back to "zero" by the time you can fire again with Paladin anyway so you are still accurate.  With the Phalanx, the group size opened significantly if I fired before it settled.

So I don't know what to say other than the Carnifex and Paladin are too easy to use for their damage output.

IIRC M885 IS green tip. Penetration-based mostly, not stopping power. We don't have access to them and cannot use them for hunt, but can use "better stoppers" from 5.56/.223 plethora, well, when it comes to stopping power - those rounds better be layed off, if you expect something really bigger than, say, wolf.
Not that I don't like those rounds or, say, AR-15 platform, quite the contrary.

M855 w/SS109 bullet is green tip I thought.  Designed to penetrate a few milimeters of steel at 600m out of a 20" barrel.  It isn't great out of a carbine, none of the standard ones are.  In this respect it is much better to be a civillian or in LE because there is so much more available.  My later comment comes from the "conclusion" from the study of 6.8mm vs 5.56mm ammo and the position that the issued ammo is at least as good as the alternatives, despite nearly all the top ten performers being various 6.8mm and number 7 being Mk262 (Black Hills 77gr OTM).

Ah well, it is a decent caliber when it is within it's envelope, but that is sort of narrow.

Well, I really like to see real formulaes for calculating "ignoring armour" and other stuff on all that thread.
But my point was mostly "why pistol is so powerful"? I know it's game and "but the balance", but I still don't like that idea. Good stopping power on soft targets, staggering on armoured ones - fine, totally up for it. Being able to deal with armour like that? Ahem, when I see how sometimes supposedly AMR can't do **** versus relatively weak target - it makes me laugh.
Plus whole idea of lot of enemies without protection. I know it was PITA in ME2 to strip defences from everyone to use some tech/biotic combos or at least whach pack of husks with concussive shot but seeing whole lot of Cerberus Assault Troopers going "naked" - without shields or armour? What's that - whole new meaning of "going commando"?

Yeah the pitols are overpowered.  I just wanted to say that I have hit more than one target with the SR's (haven't killed with one shot out of AR's, but they will damage multiple targets).

It depends on how it will be stopped.

Well a 124gr moving that fast probably won't be stopped in a human.  It would overpenetrate than whiz off into space as it has more than escape velocity

And energy transfer is very important thing, actually. If you see enemy - he sees you, so it's in you best interests to neutralize him as fast as possible. If bullet with uber-energy just flies throught target leaving minimal energy in the target, I doubt it will stop it. At least that what they read us on lectures.

Of course.  It's just personally I haven't been too impressed with differences between any of the service calibers as it relates to effectiveness.  Of course this is anecdotal, but to me it seems like there is hardly any difference between 9mm and .45 ACP.  There is a big difference in what happens when they are put in different places.

Sort of what I was getting at with energy transfer.  You can't knock someone down with bullet momentums or energies, so you have to damage something important.  That is basically penetration.  Granted, a .45 ACP certainly has enough penetration to cause damage usually, actually more than 9mm in some cases.

I think she is fastest. Plus don't really needed that Barrel/Scope stuff, so you can pack spare ammo (and that will be a huge pyle of it - about 200 rounds, yay!) and AP mod by default. I think my Indra + IEA walkthrough is at least 30 minutes shorter than any of Valiant's (not to mention BW's). Yet I didn't do "solo" Indra - I used GPS/Stasis on Phantoms, which actually sole problematic enemy for Indra, threw some frags here and there (generally against Nemesis and Phantoms on Citadel and Cronus) and used Tempest/Locust on Banshee's barriers occasionally, but I did same thing for Valiant. However, with Indra Ammo supply that is the problem only in London, rest missions provides an ample supply of spare clips on the go.

Indra is pretty quick bc of DPS with Inferno.  It doesn't seem like it could be as fast as Val against regular enemies, at least not to me.  Not with single-headshots anyway

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

Bought a Paladin and shot at some targets at the range with it and the Phalanx actually.

I think the "recoil" numbers are what cause muzzle climb in these, without the logical return to target.  Basically just pressing fire walks the shot up if you don't reaim.  This is a lot worse for Paladin than Phalanx.  I didn't have the Carnifex at this point.  I guess reticle bloom is a different variable, although practically it should be affected by recoil.

At any rate, the main problem is the bloom is basically back to "zero" by the time you can fire again with Paladin anyway so you are still accurate.  With the Phalanx, the group size opened significantly if I fired before it settled.

If it was to me, then I'd say that Phalanx has muzzle climb about 25% of Paladin's, while Carnifex is about 75%. That's for X grade (since I have them). Distance 25 metres, Citadel shooting range.
Regarding group size - in very rapid-fire session from Phalanx, on above mentioned distance, spread s about two black silhouettes width. Just a tad slower (still faster than Palnifex; no exact numbers now, I removed my watches and don't want to make noise in other room, and I haven't measured that up before, actually, only fastest RoF possible) - then about black silhouette. Caradin is about same black silhouette horizontally and about twice that vertically.
Yet I still lean toward Phalanx, I think - Paladin is uber-powerful, yet for some cases it's just too powerful. Same overshot dilemma I mentioned on previous page. Plus, with kill/spare ammo rate, I think Phalanx is a bit better. Just a bit. Affected by armour and 30% ammo modification, if present, of course.
Speaking of accuracy - Predator is damn accurate even if rapid-fire session. Eagle is pretty decent too, but suffer from muzzle-climb - for same conditions as before it will travel from bottom of the target's sheet to top in just five shots.
Arc pistol climbs same distance in about 9 shots and in terms of accuracy lies between Phalanx and Predator.

capn233 wrote...

So I don't know what to say other than the Carnifex and Paladin are too easy to use for their damage output.

I agree on that.

capn233 wrote...

M855 w/SS109 bullet is green tip I thought.  Designed to penetrate a few milimeters of steel at 600m out of a 20" barrel.  It isn't great out of a carbine, none of the standard ones are.  In this respect it is much better to be a civillian or in LE because there is so much more available.  My later comment comes from the "conclusion" from the study of 6.8mm vs 5.56mm ammo and the position that the issued ammo is at least as good as the alternatives, despite nearly all the top ten performers being various 6.8mm and number 7 being Mk262 (Black Hills 77gr OTM).

Ah well, it is a decent caliber when it is within it's envelope, but that is sort of narrow.

IIRC there are several "green tips" something like "armour piercing" type of ammo - as rounds and weapons were modified, so were bullets, yet colour-coding is still present.
No comment in Mk262, never seen it.

capn233 wrote...

Yeah the pitols are overpowered.  I just wanted to say that I have hit more than one target with the SR's (haven't killed with one shot out of AR's, but they will damage multiple targets).

AR are seriously underpowered, yet, as you said, with AP ammo or mod it is possible to hit several target at once. Not sure for killing - if they wounded, than yes. Killed several Cannibals or CATs or Husks from Mattock with IEA due AoE/AP. Damn, those abbreviations!

capn233 wrote...

Well a 124gr moving that fast probably won't be stopped in a human.  It would overpenetrate than whiz off into space as it has more than escape velocity

Maybe it won't. Maybe it will desintegrate. Maybe it will be melted on such speed. Maybe it will rip poor human apart or make a huge hole. Ballistic calculator gave me "Err" code.

capn233 wrote...

Of course.  It's just personally I haven't been too impressed with differences between any of the service calibers as it relates to effectiveness.  Of course this is anecdotal, but to me it seems like there is hardly any difference between 9mm and .45 ACP.  There is a big difference in what happens when they are put in different places.

Back when I still wore uniform there was a saying, regarding 5.45/7.62 mm calibre war: "if you hit bad guy's left arm with 5.45 and right arm with 7.62 - he won't be able to tell the difference". 

capn233 wrote...

Sort of what I was getting at with energy transfer.  You can't knock someone down with bullet momentums or energies, so you have to damage something important.  That is basically penetration.  Granted, a .45 ACP certainly has enough penetration to cause damage usually, actually more than 9mm in some cases.

I'd say it's combination between penetration and stopping power. If some small round got deep (say those 12 "necessary" inches), but didn't touched anything important, nor form substential cavity, then that round may actually didn't stop target. Since only civilians (and cops are civilians) allowed to kill each other with different sorts of expansive ammo, that creates problem for modern militaries, limited to relatively "sabot" types of bullets. So military wish to get themselves "bigger guns" is somewhat due to that. Should they have access to all range of ammunition available for civvies, well, I don't know.

capn233 wrote...

Indra is pretty quick bc of DPS with Inferno.  It doesn't seem like it could be as fast as Val against regular enemies, at least not to me.  Not with single-headshots anyway

Missions filled not only with small game Valiant can one-shot. And if my statistic tells me Indra is faster - than she is. Yes, it's not much, generally 1-2 minutes (for short missions). I think difference begins where mid and big game rolls in (minus Phantoms, if soloing them with Indra - for obvious reasons) and where Indra's big ammo supply allows you not to care too much about 33 rounds you have. And I'm speaking for Valiant without concentration mod - to prevent time-dilation affecting mission time. Same goes for BW, btw.

[capn233]

I haven't kept detailed records, so maybe my memory isn't as reliable.

I did "Cure the Genophage" today, but I had the Valiant and Raider. At this point in the game the Val could kill the Cannibals with a single shot. The Ravagers seemed to take longer than they should have with the Valiant. Brutes went down quickly though... but that was partly because I might have been using my squad better then. Actually the hammer fight was pretty easy this time. I was killing Brutes with 5 shots from the Black Widow (2 standard then ARush reload and 3 more, with help from Liara's Warp) in my last Soldier game, but unfortunately I didn't count the number of Valiant shots.  Not that it would have been a good comparison, because I was also using Proxi Mine and Carnage on them this time as well.

Also did Citadel Coup, but I switched out my Valiant for the Revenant when I picked it up just because it has been a while since I used it in SP

Modifié par capn233, 08 mai 2012 - 05:56 .

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

I haven't kept detailed records, so maybe my memory isn't as reliable.

Well, I keep records just in case I'll forget something. With that amount of blows I missed in my head... [Here should be Minsc&Boo image.]

capn233 wrote...

I did "Cure the Genophage" today, but I had the Valiant and Raider. At this point in the game the Val could kill the Cannibals with a single shot. The Ravagers seemed to take longer than they should have with the Valiant. Brutes went down quickly though... but that was partly because I might have been using my squad better then. Actually the hammer fight was pretty easy this time. I was killing Brutes with 5 shots from the Black Widow (2 standard then ARush reload and 3 more, with help from Liara's Warp) in my last Soldier game, but unfortunately I didn't count the number of Valiant shots.  Not that it would have been a good comparison, because I was also using Proxi Mine and Carnage on them this time as well.

http://social.biowar...754/14#11842545
IIRC in other places Brutes have approximate same rate of, ehmm... "dying". No, AdR, no Warp, no other abilities used, just pure firepower.
And since I turned off PC with my tables, I don't remember numbers on Ravagers, 3-4 Valiant mags and 3-4/4-5 shots for W/BW, IIRC. Don't really remember (that's why I record them in first place).

capn233 wrote...

Also did Citadel Coup, but I switched out my Valiant for the Revenant when I picked it up just because it has been a while since I used it in SP

I really tried to like Revenant and eve used it back in ME2 in couple of playthroughs. Here - I see no reason at all. I tried, but it's just so unfitting for my playstyle...

[SaturnRing]

Lot of catching up to do. Excited to go through the last two pages. I'll comment on it if i have anything relevant to say.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

Lot of catching up to do. Excited to go through the last two pages. I'll comment on it if i have anything relevant to say.

You can do that already. For example: "hey, why there are no SMG and AR tables" or "why only IEA, where are other ammo", or "why armor, ammo, and mod bonuses, test guns only!"
Unfortunately some guns are running out of ammo before I manage to kill Banshee, so word of advice: use ammo powers.


So as not to be unfounded...

AR table. Banshee drill, Cerberus Armour, weapon grade X, mod grade V. IEA. All rifles had AP mod installed, also, Vindicator, Argus, Revenant and Valkyrie had Dampner mod installed also (without them results are far worse and/or slower). Distance - 25 metres and closing. All numbers are arithmetical mean, rounded up (to whole larger number).

Avenger - 95 rounds.
Geth Pulse Rifle - 146 rounds.
Phaeston - 125 rounds.
Mattock - 66 rounds.
Argus - 63 rounds.
Vindicator - 54 rounds.
Valkyrie - 62 rounds.
Saber - 18 rounds.
Revenant - 113 rounds.
Falcon - 17 rounds.
Particle rifle ~ 150 "rounds"

Slowpokes - Argus, Falcon (not so with extra mag mod), Saber. Lightning gun - Vindicator, Particle rifle.

Time table. 6 Seconds range.

Avenger has fired 50 rounds: 30>R>20.
Geth Pulse Rifle has fired 80 rounds, timesplit comes right on reloading.
Phaeston has fired 55 rounds: 50>R>5.
Mattock has fired 32 rounds: 16>R>16.
Argus has fired 21 round, timesplit comes between last burst and reload.
Vindicator has fired 36 rounds: 24>R>12.
Valkyrie has fired 28 rounds: 16>R>12.
Saber has fired 8 rounds, timesplit comes on reloading.
Revenant has fired 60 rounds, timesplit comes right before reloading.
Falcon has fired 6 rounds: 4>R>2.
Particle rifle has fired ~ 140 "rounds". Tested with extended mag mod, obviously.

Time table, 15 seconds range.
Avenger has fired 156 rounds: 30>R>30>R>30>R>30>R>30>R>6.
Geth Pulse Rifle has fired 160 rounds:80>R>80, timesplit comes right on reloading.
Phaeston has fired 120 rounds: 50>R>50>R>20.
Mattock has fired 72 rounds: 16>R>16>R>16>R>16>R>8.
Argus has fired 42 round: 21>R>21, timesplit comes between last burst and reload.
Vindicator has fired 81 rounds: 24>R>24>R>24>R>9.
Valkyrie has fired 56 rounds: 16>R>16>R>16>R>8.
Saber has fired 16 rounds:8>R>8, timesplit comes on reloading.
Revenant has fired 120 rounds:60>R>60, timesplit comes right before reloading.
Falcon has fired 15 rounds: 4>R>4>R>4>R>3.
Particle rifle has emptied charge in 9 seconds, then 5 seconds recharge cooldown. It is possible to spent about 20 charges more until 15 seconds period expires.


SMG table on Banshee Drill (no mods).
Hornet - 96 rounds.
Shuriken - 228 (ranges above 25 metres generally).
Hurricane - 280 (ranges 30 metres and closing).
Tempest - 150.
Locust - 160 (ranges above 25 metres generally).

Time table for 6 seconds.
Hornet has fired 48 rounds: 24>R>24>R.
Shuriken has fired 72 rounds: 36>R>36>R.
Hurricane has fired 80 rounds: 40>R>40>R.
Tempes has fired 60 rounds: 50>R>10.
Locust has fired 50 rounds: 20>R>20>R>10.

Time table for 15 seconds.
Hornet has fired 120 rounds: 24>R>24>R>24>R>24>R>24>R.
Shuriken has fired 114 rounds: 36>R>36>R>36>R>6.
Hurricane has fired 180 rounds: 40>R>40>R>40>R>40>R>20.
Tempest has fired 135 rounds: 50>R>50>R>35.
Locust has fired 110 rounds: 20>R>20>R>20>R>20>R>20>R>10.


Power tables on those guns will be added later.


And here I gathered some interesting numbers. Since I have no idea how you westerners call it, I named it weight of fire - total damage inflicted over period of time or rounds spent. Those are table numbers, received through minimal testing, and mostly via arithmetic.
Now I'll keep it to SR only.

Weight of 6 seconds fire:

Black Widow - 1927.8 
Raptor - 2931
Viper - 1720.2
Valiant - 3172
Mantis - 1539
Javelin - 1987.4
Indra - 2276.2
Incirsor - 2544
Widow - 2167.6

Weight of 15 seconds fire:

Black Widow - 5783.4 [there was mistakes in my listing before - for 15 seconds BW does only 9, not 12 shots] 
Raptor - 6936.7
Viper - 4587.2
Valiant - 8326.5
Mantis - 3847.5
Javelin - 4968.5
Indra - 5091.5
Incirsor - 5088
Widow - 5419

Weight of "total ammo carried" fire:

Black Widow - 17992.8
Raptor - 14264.2
Viper - 14908.4
Valiant - 13084.5
Mantis - 15390
Javelin - 19874
Indra - 14975
Incirsor - 13992
Widow - 19508.4

Weight of "Banshee Drill" fire [these numbers are not entirely corrects, since number of rounds I've fired based upon wearing Cerberus Armour, having minor bonuses from Glyph, using passive bonuses from skills and ammo, plus most of rifles from this test (minus Indra) had Concentration/Barrel extentions mods]:

Black Widow - 6426 [10 shots]
Raptor - 7132.1 [73 shots]
Viper - 6880.8 [24 shots]
Valiant - 5947.5 [15 shots]
Mantis - 7695 [10 shots]
Javelin - 5962.2 [6 shots]
Indra - 4492.5 [75 shots]
Incirsor - 7632 [90 shots]
Widow - 7586.6 [7 shots]

"Naked" Banshee Drill - N7 armour only, no research from Glyph (if they were they went to ammo capacity, power recharge rate or weren't used), no mods on weapons, no ammo powers. Every weapon has been through 3 successful runs, results are given through slashes.

Black Widow -16/16/17
Raptor ~ 232/237/244
Viper - 58/60/60
Valiant - 36/37/41
Mantis - 15/16/16
Javelin - 10/10/11
Indra ~ 574/602/647 [had to deal with three cannibals in third run, each took about 20 rounds Indra]
Incirsor ~ 287/301/294
Widow - 11/11/12.

Raptor, Indra and Incirsor numbers are approximate, since I had to fire fast and stopped only when saw Banshee's desintegration.

Weight of "Naked Banshee drill" fire (on minimal amount of rounds fired):

Black Widow - 10281.6
Raptor - 22666.4
Viper - 16628.6
Valiant - 14274
Mantis - 11542.5
Javelin - 9937
Indra - 34382.6
Incirsor - 24337.6
Widow - 11921.8

Just for comparison - with IEA activated, it took ~130 rounds to bring down Banshee (without barrier, of course). Compare it with ~600 without ammo.

If we take damage dealt by Javelin as "real" total damage dealt, than comparing amount of "Table" damage dealt with number of shots fired, we can approximate power of each shot for every rifle:

Black Widow ~ 621.06
Raptor ~42.83
Viper ~ 171.33
Valiant ~ 276.03
Mantis ~ 662.47
Javelin - 993.7 [that's our reference point]
Indra ~ 17.31
Incirsor ~ 34.62
Widow ~ 903.36

I don't have in-game tables, but that's my computation of "damage per shot" without armour, intel or weapon mods bonuses, going through Banshee's armour.

And here percentage table of those damage, relatively to their "table" damage, i.e. "damage dealt" versus "table damage":

Black Widow ~ 69.65%
Raptor ~43.84%
Viper ~ 59.76%
Valiant ~ 69.62%
Mantis ~ 86.09%
Javelin - 100% [that's our reference point]
Indra ~ 28.90%
Incirsor ~ 40.83%
Widow ~ 83.35%


And now, should we compare our "weight of fire per time" with this percentage we will have more or less "effective damage dealt".

"Effective" weight of fire over 6 seconds:

Black Widow - 1863.19
Raptor - 1284.96
Viper - 1027.97
Valiant - 2208.22
Mantis - 1324.93
Javelin - 1987.4
Indra - 657.85
Incirsor - 1038.71
Widow - 1806.73


"Effective" weight of fire over 15 seconds:

Black Widow - 5589.56
Raptor - 3041.07
Viper - 2741.24
Valiant - 5796.58
Mantis - 3312.33
Javelin - 4968.5
Indra - 1471.51
Incirsor - 2077.42
Widow - 4516.82

"Effective weight of fire on total ammo carried:

Black Widow - 17389.75
Raptor - 6253.46
Viper - 8909.03
Valiant - 9108.92
Mantis - 13249.33
Javelin - 19874
Indra - 4327.96
Incirsor - 5712.91
Widow - 16260.55


I think those numbers speak for themselves, so to speak, and will help someone to choose rifle which suits their needs. If not - well, sorry for your time, at least I had fun testing all that.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 09 mai 2012 - 08:11 .

[KrisDude]

The Javelin For Sure Especially If You Sniper Level your Character It Is The Most Damaging And Can Take Out Most Enemies In One Shot Kills, Pyros In 2 And Usually Boss Characters In 3 Especially If You Head Shot Enemies.

[Nicksta92]

Valiant

[capn233]

KrisDude wrote...

The Javelin For Sure Especially If You Sniper Level your Character It Is The Most Damaging And Can Take Out Most Enemies In One Shot Kills, Pyros In 2 And Usually Boss Characters In 3 Especially If You Head Shot Enemies.

The Widow does more damage than the Javelin in SP.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

You can do that already. For example: "hey, why there are no SMG and AR tables" or "why only IEA, where are other ammo", or "why armor, ammo, and mod bonuses, test guns only!"
Unfortunately some guns are running out of ammo before I manage to kill Banshee, so word of advice: use ammo powers.

It make sense to prioritize IEA from a soldier pov. As a hardcore Infiltrator, it's the one ammo i wish was available for my class. But i like the challenge in having to work around that and maximize others powers
.

So as not to be unfounded...

AR table. Banshee drill, Cerberus Armour, weapon grade X, mod grade V. IEA. All rifles had AP mod installed, also, Vindicator, Argus, Revenant and Valkyrie had Dampner mod installed also (without them results are far worse and/or slower). Distance - 25 metres and closing. All numbers are arithmetical mean, rounded up (to whole larger number).

Avenger - 95 rounds.
Geth Pulse Rifle - 146 rounds.
Phaeston - 125 rounds.
Mattock - 66 rounds.
Argus - 63 rounds.
Vindicator - 54 rounds.
Valkyrie - 62 rounds.
Saber - 18 rounds.
Revenant - 113 rounds.
Falcon - 17 rounds.
Particle rifle ~ 150 "rounds"

Slowpokes - Argus, Falcon (not so with extra mag mod), Saber. Lightning gun - Vindicator, Particle rifle.

Vindicator numbers are surprisingly good,considering that it falls under the same kind of downgrade we've seen for the Viper(both were perfect in ME2; ammo scarcity was the only trade off back then). To my satisfaction the Avenger's performance isn't bad either, considering it's fairly light/low caliber. I find even more pertinent the fact that those 95 rounds can be delivered on target in a fast(large mag) and accurate fashion (i maybe overstating a little). The Mattock pretty much hovers where it should. The Saber is pure devastation and the case could be made that it should have been a SR. The Phaeston, the Geth Pulse Rifle and Particle Rifle respective 125, 146 & 150 rounds can be delivered the fastest. How fast is what will determine how efficient they are.

Time table. 6 Seconds range.

Avenger has fired 50 rounds: 30>R>20.
Geth Pulse Rifle has fired 80 rounds, timesplit comes right on reloading.
Phaeston has fired 55 rounds: 50>R>5.
Mattock has fired 32 rounds: 16>R>16.
Argus has fired 21 round, timesplit comes between last burst and reload.
Vindicator has fired 36 rounds: 24>R>12.
Valkyrie has fired 28 rounds: 16>R>12.
Saber has fired 8 rounds, timesplit comes on reloading.
Revenant has fired 60 rounds, timesplit comes right before reloading.
Falcon has fired 6 rounds: 4>R>2.
Particle rifle has fired ~ 140 "rounds". Tested with extended mag mod, obviously.

Time table, 15 seconds range.
Avenger has fired 156 rounds: 30>R>30>R>30>R>30>R>30>R>6.
Geth Pulse Rifle has fired 160 rounds:80>R>80, timesplit comes right on reloading.
Phaeston has fired 120 rounds: 50>R>50>R>20.
Mattock has fired 72 rounds: 16>R>16>R>16>R>16>R>8.
Argus has fired 42 round: 21>R>21, timesplit comes between last burst and reload.
Vindicator has fired 81 rounds: 24>R>24>R>24>R>9.
Valkyrie has fired 56 rounds: 16>R>16>R>16>R>8.
Saber has fired 16 rounds:8>R>8, timesplit comes on reloading.
Revenant has fired 120 rounds:60>R>60, timesplit comes right before reloading.
Falcon has fired 15 rounds: 4>R>4>R>4>R>3.
Particle rifle has emptied charge in 9 seconds, then 5 seconds recharge cooldown. It is possible to spent about 20 charges more until 15 seconds period expires.

This what i basically came up with based on you numbers for the Banshee drill:

Avenger 11.4sec
Geth Pulse Rifle 10.9sec
Phaeston 13.6sec
Mattock (24.7sec?)
Argus 18sec
Vindicator 9sec (wow)
Valkyrie 13.2sec
Saber 13.5sec
Revenant 11.2sec
Falcon 16.9sec
ParticleRifle 6.42sec (Damn!)

Edit: This is all based on the 6 sec drill; i would have to take the 16 sec into account and make more calculations. I went with that first considering that the particular task could be performed under 16 sec for most weapons.
It'll take me a few more sec to crunch SMG numbers. I'll get back to you shortly

Modifié par SaturnRing, 09 mai 2012 - 05:29 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

It make sense to prioritize IEA from a soldier pov. As a hardcore Infiltrator, it's the one ammo i wish was available for my class. But i like the challenge in having to work around that and maximize others powers

Garrus' AP is not that bad, I used it quite long. Only big game adds problems, especially in large numbers (packs of Banshees) for relatively "weaker" weapons. That's why I'm wondering how exactly that "armour weakening/negating" happens, since WA/DA/CA are even worse.

SaturnRing wrote...

Vindicator numbers are surprisingly good,considering that it falls under the same kind of downgrade we've seen for the Viper(both were perfect in ME2; ammo scarcity was the only trade off back then).

Vindicator is quite fast and accurate with dampner, so you concentrate on placing shots where they belong, not ot using your mouse as plane, correcting muzzle climb.

SaturnRing wrote...

To my satisfaction the Avenger's performance isn't bad either, considering it's fairly light/low caliber. I find even more pertinent the fact that those 95 rounds can be delivered on target in a fast(large mag) and accurate fashion (i maybe overstating a little). 

You don't, Avenger is pretty fast and accurate on long range. What I really want - SR/Shotgun "spare ammo mod", since mag increase is not that meaningful, by my opinion. Of course, I'm aware of GPR/Mag/AdR trick.

SaturnRing wrote...

The Mattock pretty much hovers where it should.

I'd say she should be more accurate.
Plus her RoF based on you solely, like in case with Raptor, Predator and Arc Pistol. If you able to click fast, then those guns could be quite devastating.

SaturnRing wrote...

The Saber is pure devastation and the case could be made that it should have been a SR.

Saber requires dampner (or sitting in cover), otherwise you'll spent more time correcting muzzle climb. It's fine with very big target on areas where you can move around, but dealing with raving charging banshees...
Partly because of this, plus delay between shots, Saber is quite slowpokey in killing Banshee. And unlike most other rifles, that "blow-back", when "Scintillating" banshee is knocked back by damage inflicted upon it, happens not that often with Saber. Maybe it's just me - karma and all that.
OF course, the weaker ammo power you use, the more powerful Saber will be.

SaturnRing wrote...

The Phaeston, the Geth Pulse Rifle and Particle Rifle respective 125, 146 & 150 rounds can be delivered the fastest. How fast is what will determine how efficient they are.

Phaeston left impression of being slower than GPR and Avenger.
GPR is quite good for IEA and not so much without it, since main damage, like in case with Indra or SMGs comes from IEA, not weapon itself.
Particle rifle is quite funny weapon - laser accurate, yet very touchy to battery charge, since should you spent all supply, you'll have to wait 5 seconds without firing AND pressing spacebar, since this will cancel reload. So, no running, no rolling, no taking cover. Not sure for high-risk/high-reward, really.

SaturnRing wrote...

This what i basically came up with based on you numbers for the Banshee drill:

Avenger 11.4sec
Geth Pulse Rifle 10.9sec
Phaeston 13.6sec
Mattock (24.7sec?)
Argus 18sec
Vindicator 9sec (wow)
Valkyrie 13.2sec
Saber 13.5sec
Revenant 11.2sec
Falcon 16.9sec
ParticleRifle 6.42sec (Damn!)

Not exactly. Don't forget - it is impossible to make every test run identical to previous. Of course, I tried to use same "constants", but in few cases it was a bit difficult to do. Sometimes you have to dodge projectiles they throwing at you, if you lucky, it happens during reload, if not - you have to wait in cover, plus they moves, so sometimes you have to move yourself.

My general table is next (all rifles had AP mod and extra mag cap mod):

Avenger - 15 sec (1 dodge (actually hiding behind cover), dodge taken about 3 seconds)
Geth Pulse Rifle - 11 sec
Phaeston - 15 sec (1 reload, took around 3 sec)
Mattock - 13 sec (2 reloads)
Argus - 21 sec (1 reload)
Vindicator - 14 sec (1 reload combined with dodge (about 4 sec))
Valkyrie - 19 sec (2 reloads)
Saber - 21 (1 reload)
Revenant - 15 sec (1 reload)
Falcon - 17 sec (2 reloads)
ParticleRifle - 7 sec.

SaturnRing wrote...

Edit: This is all based on the 6 sec drill; i would have to take the 16 sec into account and make more calculations. I went with that first considering that the particular task could be performed under 16 sec for most weapons.

Unfortunately there are much more variables we have to take into consideration. And since they didn't give us hammer and nails to nail those things to one place, I doubt even with many repeatitions we will be able to perform accurately.

SaturnRing wrote...

It'll take me a few more sec to crunch SMG numbers. I'll get back to you shortly

I'll be waiting.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


Not exactly. Don't forget - it is impossible to make every test run identical to previous. Of course, I tried to use same "constants", but in few cases it was a bit difficult to do. Sometimes you have to dodge projectiles they throwing at you, if you lucky, it happens during reload, if not - you have to wait in cover, plus they moves, so sometimes you have to move yourself.

My general table is next (all rifles had AP mod and extra mag cap mod):

Avenger - 15 sec (1 dodge (actually hiding behind cover), dodge taken about 3 seconds)
Geth Pulse Rifle - 11 sec
Phaeston - 15 sec (1 reload, took around 3 sec)
Mattock - 13 sec (2 reloads)
Argus - 21 sec (1 reload)
Vindicator - 14 sec (1 reload combined with dodge (about 4 sec))
Valkyrie - 19 sec (2 reloads)
Saber - 21 (1 reload)
Revenant - 15 sec (1 reload)
Falcon - 17 sec (2 reloads)
ParticleRifle - 7 sec.

Overall the Particle Rifle seems to perform particularly well; it makes sense considering that it's advanced tech even by ME standard. Same for the Geth Pulse Rifle - consistent with the Synthetics technological state
I didn't want to include variables in my previous assessement - there're just too many to take into consideration - but i can see a certain pattern: burst weapon seem to be a little more challenging to operate - except for the Vindi. 

[capn233]

Armor weakening for the ammo powers only applies to the shot from the weapon that fired it. So if you are running Garrus's AP Ammo, you will get a bonus to armor. Same with Cryo or Warp, the armor weakening is the percentage it cuts off the 50pt damage reduction per shot of armor on Insanity, for example. The question is how bad does the 50% effectiveness ruin it for you? That's why if Shepard has something that works basically as well you should consider running it instead.

On Infiltrator I did not miss incendiary ammo one bit, but I was running Mantis and Predator most of the game. For trying to work around shield gate Disruptor is much more useful than Incendiary, and that goes doubly so for the slow firing weapons that can't really take advantage of the explosive evolution.  And I can run the SR Piercing mod and avoid having to rely on AP ammo.

One last bit is that the headshot damage bonus for ammo powers works on any defense, not just the ones that the ammo power is keyed for.  Something else to keep in mind.

Modifié par capn233, 10 mai 2012 - 02:31 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

Overall the Particle Rifle seems to perform particularly well; it makes sense considering that it's advanced tech even by ME standard. Same for the Geth Pulse Rifle - consistent with the Synthetics technological state
I didn't want to include variables in my previous assessement - there're just too many to take into consideration - but i can see a certain pattern: burst weapon seem to be a little more challenging to operate - except for the Vindi. 

Particle rifle is interesting, but, like I said, in intense battle you should be very aware of remaining charge, otherwise you'll end up with empty rifle, that requires you not to use spacebar (or whatever key is responsible on console for "do-everything") for 5 seconds. No sprint, no rolls, no taking cover (unlike ME1 you can't just walk into one, if it's short cover).
Geth Pulse Rifle with IEA is devastating - extra-mag cap mod+AP mod and you will be walking apocalypse's little brother (Indra is superiour here, by my opinion).

For burst weapon - well, my opinion is next:
Valkyrie could be quite accurate with Optics and Dampner. On 30 metres you could land two headshots with it. But both those mods are necessary, IMHO. Same for Saber, btw, though Saber could live without optics, yet as pseudo-sniper rifle it should welcome it (and it does).
Vindicator doesn't need optics, but Dampner is more than welcomed - it will reduce muzzle climb from human-sized figure at 30 metres to human chest size figure. Not as good as in ME2, but at least not Viper.
Argus is off the damn charts, it's just broken - without Dampner bullets fly wherever they wish. With Dampner it has about human-size spread and that just vertically (about two human sizes - horizontally). Optics doesn't help much (1.5 human sized figures now - makes better?). Add slowpoking RoF and long, 3 second reload and here you go - this gun will makes you think twice for future pre-orders (well, I still pre-ordered new Alan Wake).

capn233 wrote...

Armor weakening for the ammo powers only applies to the shot from the weapon that fired it. So if you are running Garrus's AP Ammo, you will get a bonus to armor. Same with Cryo or Warp, the armor weakening is the percentage it cuts off the 50pt damage reduction per shot of armor on Insanity, for example. The question is how bad does the 50% effectiveness ruin it for you? That's why if Shepard has something that works basically as well you should consider running it instead.

Those 50 points for Insanity are correct? If yes, then I don't get something. According to that formulae, my APP should reduce armour efficiency by 75%, reducing those 50 to 12.5, right? If yes, than, say, for Indra amount of damage per shot going through should be 47 instead of 59, if it's simple substraction. But according to numbers of rounds spent - generally about 150, it seems that armour block is reduced by ~ 20% only. Those numbers for WA/CA makes even less sense. Comparing those computations with "naked" tests only adds up "wut" moments.

capn233 wrote...

On Infiltrator I did not miss incendiary ammo one bit, but I was running Mantis and Predator most of the game. For trying to work around shield gate Disruptor is much more useful than Incendiary, and that goes doubly so for the slow firing weapons that can't really take advantage of the explosive evolution. And I can run the SR Piercing mod and avoid having to rely on AP ammo.

I haven't played as Infiltrator, but during my Javelin/Widow/Black Widow runs I wasn't missing IA much as well, I was pretty fine with AP. Even with Valiant runs I wasn't missing IA.
Regarding IEA and slow firing weapons, well, according to my tests - they actually can, since using IEA with them reduces amount of shots required to deal with big game (10-12 for BW with IEA, 12-15 for other ammo and 16-17 without, I'd say that's difference). On small game it is definitely irrelevant.

capn233 wrote...

One last bit is that the headshot damage bonus for ammo powers works on any defense, not just the ones that the ammo power is keyed for. Something else to keep in mind.

Banshee has headshot damage?
Regardless, it doesn't fits me, I choose 30% always, so only headshot bonus I have is from Combat Mastery.

[capn233]

Are we talking about the Banshee still? What stage of the game, since enemy health is variable? It is supposed to work like I explained, as I got that from the sticky about gameplay data and mechanics. Things off the top of my head... what rank Indra? And what base damage are you applying the AP ammo bonuses to for your calculation? In ME2 (where it was perhaps simpler) ammo powers were derived from the base damage of the weapon before the upgrades were factored in. The only damage formula I have seen was "empirically derived," but apparently base in this game is the upgraded value.  I do not know if Banshees have another Damage Reduction applied when their "aura" is up. They very well could, as Phantoms supposedly have 30%DR when they have their hand up with the damage reduction barrier. But that is gross speculation on my part.

I was incorrect in one of my statements above though, it seems that armor weakening may apply to the whole party, but the duration of the effect is short.

As for the slow firing weapons, it depends. Incendiary has a bonus to armor so it should be better against armor. It didn't seem better against shields or barriers though. Interestingly I don't recall a practical difference in killing banshees between using Disruptor or Incendiary on my Black Widows as a soldier. But I am usually using as many squad powers as possible, so that will skew the results somewhat. For a Brute I always had Incendiary equipped.

Regarding the last bit, no Banshees do not have heads for the purpose of the bonus. Nor do Brutes. I was simply adding another bit about ammo powers since you guys were talking about them. I always take the damage though. Mainly because I feel like the "ammo" pool for a weapon is fine by level V.  Additionally, the headshot bonus for ammo powers appears to be a global damage multiplier, unlike the other headshot bonuses from passive or armor that are the standard additive type.  Cryo is the least useful though because the target has to be frozen before it applies.

Here was the thread on weapon damage that I had seen before:
http://social.biowar.../index/10639449

Modifié par capn233, 10 mai 2012 - 07:37 .

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

Are we talking about the Banshee still?

For the purpose of "Banshee drill" test? Of course not.

capn233 wrote...

What stage of the game, since enemy health is variable?

Let's say Lesuss.

capn233 wrote...

what rank Indra?

All guns rank X, all mods rank V and Cerberus armour. Just for ease of use and "remembering". Outside of "naked" test - there N7 armour (with helmet, if that's important) and no mods, nor ammo.

capn233 wrote...

And what base damage are you applying the AP ammo bonuses to for your calculation?

One from table. 59.9 if we talk about Indra.

capn233 wrote...

In ME2 (where it was perhaps simpler) ammo powers were derived from the base damage of the weapon before the upgrades were factored in. The only damage formula I have seen was "empirically derived," but apparently base in this game is the upgraded value.  I do not know if Banshees have another Damage Reduction applied when their "aura" is up. They very well could, as Phantoms supposedly have 30%DR when they have their hand up with the damage reduction barrier. But that is gross speculation on my part.

As well as on mine, since I haven't attempted to perform "Banshee drill" without ammo powers. With them (mainly IEA), I wasn't able to notice significant difference I could put my finger on and say "yep, this is it". I mean I'm no perfect, I missed some shots, so I can't tell whether that scintillating aura adds some significant DR or not. But if it is - it is within 1 Indra's mag margin.

capn233 wrote...

I was incorrect in one of my statements above though, it seems that armor weakening may apply to the whole party, but the duration of the effect is short.

It's irrelevant for my "Banshee drill" test since I either hid partners away, or they died before Banshee's barrier was down, so I doubt they somehow affected "purity" of my tests.

capn233 wrote...

As for the slow firing weapons, it depends. Incendiary has a bonus to armor so it should be better against armor. It didn't seem better against shields or barriers though. Interestingly I don't recall a practical difference in killing banshees between using Disruptor or Incendiary on my Black Widows as a soldier. But I am usually using as many squad powers as possible, so that will skew the results somewhat. For a Brute I always had Incendiary equipped.

Like I said, I was interested in damage inflicted by weapon Shepard wields and by different ammo types, not total damage inflicted by party or "fastest way to make Brute stew". That's why I decided to begin those tests in first place.
During my standard test (with mods and armour), I'd say at average it takes about 4 mags of DA6LUU to took down Banshee barrier. Yet with IA6LUL (that's IEA), it takes 5. And like I said, I can "score" some of those misses, since I don't wait till it comes to point blank - mainly because DA simply strips barrier down, yet IEA can knockback Banshee, not sure what is official term for that. So if it jerked back - I generally miss, because it's hard to see things through Banshee's own scintillating and IEA explosions. 

capn233 wrote...

Regarding the last bit, no Banshees do not have heads for the purpose of the bonus. Nor do Brutes. I was simply adding another bit about ammo powers since you guys were talking about them. I always take the damage though. Mainly because I feel like the "ammo" pool for a weapon is fine by level V.  Additionally, the headshot bonus for ammo powers appears to be a global damage multiplier, unlike the other headshot bonuses from passive or armor that are the standard additive type.  Cryo is the least useful though because the target has to be frozen before it applies.

Well, on one we can agree - Valiant Ammo supply is irrelevant to Valiant's grade - it's will be 30. Stability is the sign of Excellence.
But jokes aside - I do not like their system. Plus, it's something I learned on service: there are no such things as "too much ammo", "too much time" and "too much distance toward enemy". Civilian version usually replaces latter with "too much money".
Anyway, I still don't like their system and, outside of "naked" series of tests, there were few occasions where I was running dry, that's true. And as I don't believe in space magic - I prefer to carry more guns.

capn233 wrote...

Here was the thread on weapon damage that I had seen before:
http://social.biowar.../index/10639449

I think I read that thread.

[SaturnRing]

capn233 wrote...

Armor weakening for the ammo powers only applies to the shot from the weapon that fired it. So if you are running Garrus's AP Ammo, you will get a bonus to armor. Same with Cryo or Warp, the armor weakening is the percentage it cuts off the 50pt damage reduction per shot of armor on Insanity, for example. The question is how bad does the 50% effectiveness ruin it for you? That's why if Shepard has something that works basically as well you should consider running it instead.

I'm taking note of that for my next Infiltrator run. I usually pick WA or APA as a bonus power for my sniper. While APA is pretty straight forward, i find WA a little more difficult to wrap my head around. Once the biotic barrier is taken care of, it's difficult to read; i get mixt result and pretty much am in the dark. 
On a more general approch it's not uncommon for me to constantly switch ammo for a same target: one to take out barriers/shields and IA or CA to finish it off.  

On Infiltrator I did not miss incendiary ammo one bit, but I was running Mantis and Predator most of the game. For trying to work around shield gate Disruptor is much more useful than Incendiary, and that goes doubly so for the slow firing weapons that can't really take advantage of the explosive evolution.  And I can run the SR Piercing mod and avoid having to rely on AP ammo.

Very much  a double edged sword for me. But using the Mantis does force me to find the right "rhythm".
 

One last bit is that the headshot damage bonus for ammo powers works on any defense, not just the ones that the ammo power is keyed for.  Something else to keep in mind.

I tend to forget although headshot is always the preferable solution.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 10 mai 2012 - 03:19 .

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

For burst weapon - well, my opinion is next:
Valkyrie could be quite accurate with Optics and Dampner. On 30 metres you could land two headshots with it. But both those mods are necessary, IMHO. Same for Saber, btw, though Saber could live without optics, yet as pseudo-sniper rifle it should welcome it (and it does).
Vindicator doesn't need optics, but Dampner is more than welcomed - it will reduce muzzle climb from human-sized figure at 30 metres to human chest size figure. Not as good as in ME2, but at least not Viper.
Argus is off the damn charts, it's just broken - without Dampner bullets fly wherever they wish. With Dampner it has about human-size spread and that just vertically (about two human sizes - horizontally). Optics doesn't help much (1.5 human sized figures now - makes better?). Add slowpoking RoF and long, 3 second reload and here you go - this gun will makes you think twice for future pre-orders (well, I still pre-ordered new Alan Wake).

I used it once and i was done. I see it more as a HMG/ LMG(at least its full auto version), like the Revenant...possible to utilize( if enemy AI was succepible and reacted to cover fire.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 10 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

I'm taking note of that for my next Infiltrator run. I usually pick WA or APA as a bonus power for my sniper. While APA is pretty straight forward, i find WA a little more difficult to wrap my head around. Once the biotic barrier is taken care of, it's difficult to read; i get mixt result and pretty much am in the dark. 

Somewhat I agree with this - my tests gave quite ambiguous results - IEA is rules supreme, AP generally second "best" in terms of raw damage, WA is generally third, yet sometimes it is second, DA and CA somewhat near each other and behind WA, so I really don't know which one to choose, but due versatility I'd chose DA - at least it can strip shields and barriers.
That's from raw damage of "Shepard/Weapon combo" point of view only. Not sure for crowd control abilities of CA, since I think most of small game could be OSOK'ed via Valiant or Viper or at least dealt major damage and left to team-mates to finish them off. BW could do that trick too, as well, of course - simply put I see no reason to freeze enemies if you can kill them with same rate and less ammo spent.

SaturnRing wrote...

On a more general approch it's not uncommon for me to constantly switch ammo for a same target: one to take out barriers/shields and IA or CA to finish it off.  

Well, I don't do that - I don't want to lose those +30% bonus ammo from skill, which I always lost if I switched to another ammo type. Plus, I use SMG to strip enemies shields and barriers. I'd say DA is more effective here, of course (well, Warp is more effective to destroy barrier), but until I train it, IEA/AP works pretty fine.

SaturnRing wrote...

Very much  a double edged sword for me. But using the Mantis does force me to find the right "rhythm".

 
My tests proves otherwise - IEA is most effective, regardless of weapon type.

SaturnRing wrote...

I used it once and i was done. I see it more as a HMG/ LMG(at least its full auto version), like the Revenant...possible to utilize( if enemy AI was succepible and reacted to cover fire.

Sorry, but I disargee on this. We already have "some-MG" - that's Revenant. Argus has quite small mag, just 21 round, and yes, I've heard of M15.
More than that - Argus presented as LE weapon. AFAIK LE modus operandi is to "do no harm" to innocent, bystanders and civilians in general - unlike militaries we consider, say protesters or rioters or any citizens involved into public disorder just as citizens who needs to be called to order (or brought to it, carefully, yet efficiently), not as enemy you need to maim or kill. Thus different training, equipment and general approach.
I have no problems with Argus single shot stopping power and I should that should be - little penetration yet very good stopping power, but that burst not just makes no sense - it's make negative amount of sense, since that gun is just horrible in terms of "accuracy". Should Argus be like old Mattock (or Mattock had her accuracy back) - that would be good LE rifle. Probably with greater modifiers against health, and fewer versus armour (not sure for shields, since IMHO with old ME shields widespread it should be efficient against them too). But even if it had 1.0 modifier against everything except health and, say, 1.5-2.0 modifier against it, plus default staggering/stunning ability (say alike Disruptor ammo by default with stunning mod) - that could be very good LE rifle - accurate, with relatively big ammo supply and with LE-based background.
My 2 coppers, of course.

[capn233]

I don't see how IAE is the most effective regardless of type of weapon, especially considering what defense you are going up against.

Maxed Disruptor should grant you 15% bonus to health and 60% to shields and barriers. Incendiary maxed with explosive burst would be 20.5% to health and armor, applied to health as DOT (after the bullet damage, which makes this ammo power unique), and Explosive Burst is supposedly a 50% chance per projectile. Additionally, supposedly EB doesn't actually apply damage to targets with shields or barriers, but I haven't tested that. It did seem relatively underwhelming on a GPR on the Rescue Koris mission though, so I am inclined to believe the info that it isn't applied is true, which means it uses the defense multiplier (1 or 0) just as the ammo power bonus does.  There is also a question of whether Incendiary has reduced damage to synthetic health as it did in ME2 (fire damage had a .25 multiplier in that game to synthetics).

At any rate, with the Mantis at 769.5 damage the Disruptor bonus to shields and barriers would be superior to a single explosive burst if it even applied damage to the shields (461.7 vs 105, or more likely 0). Against armor or health perhaps Incendiary is better.

Then there is the issue of the shield gate which plagues the single shot rifles anyway, which is better countered by Warp or Disruptor ammo. But as he is talking Infiltrator anyway that is somewhat moot. You don't get Incendiary on an Infiltrator.

As to the question about Warp Ammo, Warp should be superior against armor compared with AP with high damage per shot weapons because the extra armor damage offsets the smaller armor weakening bonus. On lower damage per shot weapons AP Ammo should give you more damage.

Modifié par capn233, 11 mai 2012 - 12:37 .