550 réponses à ce sujet

[SaturnRing]

incinerator950 wrote...

Gibb the Valiant in if you don't have it, its on Disc.

Black Widow, followed by Valiant. I don't use Sniper Rifles, but I generally like to test weapons out, Black Widow wins.

I would love to. But it is such risky biz on 360.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

Precisely. The absence of a barrel concept - as we know it - is what i had in mind. There don't seem to be a need for a linear component layout.  That's why i find the bullpup concept even more attractive. Although i don't see any practical advantages in weight or manoeuvrability. You would pretty much get what you see: a shorter weapon.

The only problem that concept doesn't work, basically - Widow and Black Widow have same size-weight, as far as we can see, yet latter is less powerful per shot (~60%), but more powerful per "reload". In same time, Paladin pistol, which is much lighter and smaller has 2/3 of Black Widow power per shot. Of course, both Widows have some innate AP, but Mantis, with relatively same barrel length and about 70% of Widow's power per shot - doesn't. Yet it much lighter than Widow.
Or take Mattock and Argus - basically same "chassis", yet Argus more powerful per shot, holds more ammo, have greater ammo supply, but has accuracy... Well, it can hit barn only if you standing inside that barn. And yes, I noticed that Argus is slower.

SaturnRing wrote...

I had something like a bolt action version of the M99 in mind for an anti material SR; which would essentially  translate into a bullpup Widow in the game. Or if you choose a lighter caliber, then i'm thinking a semi auto version of the DSR-1; which in turn would be closer to a bullpup Viper (or a Mattock with an extended barrel with mounted optics instead of  the handle)

Well, KSVK is - bullpap, AMR, and magazine bolt action (i.e. not single-shot).
I'd like to see really working concept of size and weight in game, i.e. really affecting your Shepard's movement, agility, handling, reloading speed and accuracy "regeneration", as well as proper power for AMR, but with existing system... Well, I doubt we'll ever see it.

[XoningOut]

This may be an odd choice, but I like the incisor for lengthy engagements. Take out infantry in two pulls of the trigger , and it can carry a lot of ammo.And I love when I aim for the chest, then the shots climb up and finish with a headshot.

[SaturnRing]

XoningOut wrote...

This may be an odd choice, but I like the incisor for lengthy engagements. Take out infantry in two pulls of the trigger , and it can carry a lot of ammo.And I love when I aim for the chest, then the shots climb up and finish with a headshot.

Pretty much. That's how i get the most out of it.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


Well, KSVK is - bullpap, AMR, and magazine bolt action (i.e. not single-shot).
I'd like to see really working concept of size and weight in game, i.e. really affecting your Shepard's movement, agility, handling, reloading speed and accuracy "regeneration", as well as proper power for AMR, but with existing system... Well, I doubt we'll ever see it.

I heard about the KSVK. But i can't say i'm familiar with any of it's spec.
About movement/reload/speed penalty, i would agree if wielding a SR was indispensable in certain specific situations. But there pretty much always a way to work around that and not carry one at all..

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

I heard about the KSVK. But i can't say i'm familiar with any of it's spec.
 

It big, loud and kicks like you expect from 12x108mm.

SaturnRing wrote...

About movement/reload/speed penalty, i would agree if wielding a SR was indispensable in certain specific situations. But there pretty much always a way to work around that and not carry one at all..

No, it shouldn't only apply to SR - to all equipment you have. Those casters have advantage - their abilities are limitless (no one cares about calories they spent so energy bars and juice exist only in talks), what soldier have? Concussive shot? Go solo CS SCUD defence. Of course, someone could say "there are always clips", yeah, sure, but you have to go to them, and, truth be told - RESPAWNING clips, what, seriously?

My point is next - all equipment you have should have real affect on what Shepard could do. Should you choose to carry AMR (40 kg, really?) then that gun should a) severely limit your mobility, even if you play as soldier (maybe also Infiltrator, but that should be exception), don't have (and that's should concern all SRs) out-of-scope damage penalty (c'mon!), c) one-shot kill almost anything or at least deal severe damage (like Cain back in ME2, only pointy, not all over the place), so two-shot absolutely anything. Maybe three, Okay, but not more - 7 shots to bring down Banshee's armour only? What "materiel" that rifle can actually destroy? Some soldier water canteen? I see pain, but no gain. On the long run Valiant loses only because it will be out of ammo - that 30 rounds bug (or feature), yes. And IIRC there are only 3 components adding you +10% to ammo carried.
Moreover, either they explain us all fuss about weight, barrel length, projectiles physics inside their game, or please - return our good logical physics. When you reduce weapon weight, but increase it's power at same time... Yeah, it should kicks and flips more. So yes, basically second round shot from Hurricane should bring upper receiver in contant with Shepard's mug.
So here we should have "communicating vessels", sort of - basic gun have all parametres linked up. On modding bench or on the go (I see no problems with slapping scopes now) you decide which mods to apply and which parametres to adjust (within logical limits). For example, you don't plan to shoot much, then you can remove some weight from the gun. On the other side - gun will have descresed "accuracy regeneration", since it will be harder for Shepard to bring it back to line of sight. Practially it won't affect rate of fire - cyclic rate should be same, but practical RoF will be lowered. Same should be if you decide to readjust "energy coils" to add some punch.
On the contrary - adding weight will reduce recoil, thus increasing practical RoF and accuracy - somewhat. "proppelant" could also be changed - either into more AP, in exchange for worse stopping power (thus damage to health and chance to stagger enemy), or vice versa.
And for what is still holy - remove that imbecilic innate spread!

[SaturnRing]

[quote]Rudy Lis wrote...

My point is next - all equipment you have should have real affect on what Shepard could do. Should you choose to carry AMR (40 kg, really?) then that gun should a) severely limit your mobility, even if you play as soldier (maybe also Infiltrator, but that should be exception), don't have (and that's should concern all SRs) out-of-scope damage penalty (c'mon!), c) one-shot kill almost anything or at least deal severe damage (like Cain back in ME2, only pointy, not all over the place), so two-shot absolutely anything. Maybe three, Okay, but not more - 7 shots to bring down Banshee's armour only? What "materiel" that rifle can actually destroy? Some soldier water canteen? I see pain, but no gain. On the long run Valiant loses only because it will be out of ammo - that 30 rounds bug (or feature), yes. And IIRC there are only 3 components adding you +10% to ammo carried.
[/quote]

I agree. The only problem is that there's the assumption that even the most hardcore soldier/infiltrator would rely on the use powers 50% of the time; you then get a cumulative penalty effect that would seriously hinder your ability to balanced boths - powers/weapons. I would personally go along with what you're suggesting as i merely use them (powers) 25% of the time or less. But some of it has to do with game limitations too i guess.
"Unrealistic"(i know it's up for debate) weapon damage is the main reason i'm so reluctant to play on Insanity; It seems more logical to me to reduce Shepard shield strengh limiting the time he/she could stay exposed. So i won't argue there.

 [quote]
Moreover, either they explain us all fuss about weight, barrel length, projectiles physics inside their game, or please - return our good logical physics. When you reduce weapon weight, but increase it's power at same time... Yeah, it should kicks and flips more. So yes, basically second round shot from Hurricane should bring upper receiver in contant with Shepard's mug.

[/quote]
You mean like firing the anti-tank Famas ordnance.

[quote]
So here we should have "communicating vessels", sort of - basic gun have all parametres linked up. On modding bench or on the go (I see no problems with slapping scopes now) you decide which mods to apply and which parametres to adjust (within logical limits).
 
[/quote]
I guess tech has its benefits. No need to constantly zero optics.

[quote]

For example, you don't plan to shoot much, then you can remove some weight from the gun. On the other side - gun will have descresed "accuracy regeneration", since it will be harder for Shepard to bring it back to line of sight. Practially it won't affect rate of fire - cyclic rate should be same, but practical RoF will be lowered. Same should be if you decide to readjust "energy coils" to add some punch.
 
[/quote]
That i perfectly agree; let the operator figure out and regulate the best fire rate. AR heavy weight (Valkyrie, Argus) would shoot straighter due to the heavier barrel effect. They have the weight ; it's just not accounted for except for cooldown time. 

[quote]

On the contrary - adding weight will reduce recoil, thus increasing practical RoF and accuracy - somewhat. "proppelant" could also be changed - either into more AP, in exchange for worse stopping power (thus damage to health and chance to stagger enemy), or vice versa.
And for what is still holy - remove that imbecilic innate spread![/quote]

[/quote]

But in the end we're assuming that real life physics aply to ME3 weapons. That's the danger 

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

I agree. The only problem is that there's the assumption that even the most hardcore soldier/infiltrator would rely on the use powers 50% of the time; you then get a cumulative penalty effect that would seriously hinder your ability to balanced boths - powers/weapons. I would personally go along with what you're suggesting as i merely use them (powers) 25% of the time or less. But some of it has to do with game limitations too i guess.

Heh. To use those powers it should be nice to have those powers in first place.
CS feels odd, I beat game 8 times, still can't get used to it. With Indra X yes, you can spam it quite often, but still, it just feels odd. Not sure if it's just me or not, but AoE seems to be ommited - I remember how CS in ME2 could send three (or more) husks flying, in ME3 outside tutorial I don't remember at least one case when CS sent at least two targets flying. Maybe there was damage, but some animation cycle broken, don't know. It feels like it lacks any punch.
Adrenaline Rush is too long for me - 8 seconds to use and 3 to recharge? Choose melee bonus instead duration? Have you tried to sleep on floor, not ceiling? It's much more comfortable this way - 6.20 instead of 7.80, great difference.  I don't ask for 60-75-90% dilation, but I'd prefer manual deactivation of Adrenaline Rush, since I'd like to use it for just one shot. Using just first step? What for, for 30% dilation? I got that from Concentration module.
Grenades, Fitness, Combat Mastery and Ammo powers don't give a damn to cooldown.

SaturnRing wrote...

"Unrealistic"(i know it's up for debate) weapon damage is the main reason i'm so reluctant to play on Insanity; It seems more logical to me to reduce Shepard shield strengh limiting the time he/she could stay exposed. So i won't argue there.

Reduce Shepard's shield? With current "awesome" "do-everything" spacebar, that shield is barely enough.
What makes me laugh, really - ME2 with all it's flaws, felt more dynamic. I mean really dynamic. Shields were gone fast, but they recharged faster (4 seconds). In ME3 it took at least 7 seconds to recharge damn shields and that should happen without taking damage. Seeing how often enemies actually shoot through cover you hiding behind (and they shoot from below), you can safely increase that period.
That aspect actually makes me laugh at Thermal Clips concept - what "practical fire rate" they talking about, if I spend more time behind cover to recharge my shields than it's needed to recharge Particle Rifle? For God's sake, ME1 crappiest gun cooled faster (6 seconds).
"Dynamic"... I wonder what harm that Namic did to them if they want him dead?

And regarding Insanity - I agree that weapon damage is "unrealistic", but don't be reluctant. Of course there are "WTF" moments and tonns of nerd rage, especially for you - without Valiant and Indra, but it's not that hard, really. More annoying and irritating. And that's basically sentence for game for me.

SaturnRing wrote...

You mean like firing the anti-tank Famas ordnance.

AC-58 and some AP/AV something?
I think those were the names - I played Operation Frenchpoint mod for Operation Flashpoint. Outside FDF - my favorite. Scratch that - my favorite, ahead FDF. FDF is just different approach. Highly recommend. Both.

 

SaturnRing wrote...

I guess tech has its benefits. No need to constantly zero optics.

Well, now we only have to explain that to them.

SaturnRing wrote...

That i perfectly agree; let the operator figure out and regulate the best fire rate. AR heavy weight (Valkyrie, Argus) would shoot straighter due to the heavier barrel effect. They have the weight ; it's just not accounted for except for cooldown time. 

Precisely. Plus don't forget "power consumption", if it is applicable - should you make your shots less powerful, shouldn't it reduce amount of heat produced as well?

Speaking of weight. If we took Widow weight as 40 kg and take a look on overload it gives to Shepard and compare that overload to another weapon, we can easily split all ingame guns into few categories based on their weight.

W/BW/J, Crusader, Claymore - first group.
Argus, Valkyrie, Saber, Revenant, Falcon, Particle Rifle, GPS, Raider, Graal - second.
Valiant, Mantis, Indra, Raptor - third.
Viper, Incirsor, GPR, Phaeston, Mattock, Katana, Wraith, Scimitar, Eviscerator, Talon, Arc Pistol, Scorpion - fourth.
Avenger, Vindicator, Hornet, Hurricane, Disciple - fifth.
Tempest, Locust, Paladin, Carnifex - sixth.
Eagle and Phalanx - seventh.
Predator - eigths.

For Grade I weights table will look like:
1 - 40 kg.
2 - 32 kg.
3 - 28 kg.
4 - 24 kg.
5 - 16 kg.
6 - 12 kg.
7 - 9.6 kg.
8 - 8 kg.

For Grade X numbers will be those:
1 - 32 kg.
2 - 22.4 kg.
3 - 16 kg.
4 - 14.4 kg.
5 - 8 kg.
6 - 5.6 kg.
7 - 4 kg.
8 - 3.2 kg.

Logic? Never been there.

SaturnRing wrote...

But in the end we're assuming that real life physics aply to ME3 weapons. That's the danger 

No danger. Well, there is a risk to laugh our asses out in process, if we begin careful examination.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

AC-58 and some AP/AV something?
I think those were the names - I played Operation Frenchpoint mod for Operation Flashpoint. Outside FDF - my favorite. Scratch that - my favorite, ahead FDF. FDF is just different approach. Highly recommend. Both.

 

Can't remember the name. But i remember the broken noses. Back when modularity was determined by how much duck tape you had. Don't know if they still use those AC-58? though.
I haven't played Flashpoint even though i thought it was the most realistic on the market. But i'll give it a try ( I a ghost recon fanatic ). FDF?
I'll give your numbers a closer look and i'll get back to you.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 17 mai 2012 - 06:04 .

[capn233]

Real life physics do apply to these weapons, at least according to the codex and with the small exception of the "mass effect" fields that they use to reduce the mass, and the momentum, of the projectile while it is in the weapon. That is why there is still recoil, conservation of the "reduced" momentum. It is also explained that this is why the recoil is substantially less than what it would be for the same muzzle energy or momentum if no fields were applied.  In that regime extended barrel and high caliber barrels should probably increase the recoil of the weapons.

The radius evolution of CS is not particularly good, 1.5m maybe. The whole power doesn't work very well. Apparently they realized this in development and they decided to go quantity over quality with the ultra fast cooldown.

As for weapons on Insanity, you can beat it with any of them. I have an inkling to do a soldier with just the Avenger and Predator, or do a real Alliance standard issue soldier with Avenger, Predator, Mantis and Katana. Ignoring that, Vindicator is an excellent weapon that I have used through the entire game across many different classes, although it is probably best on a Soldier with ARush and Incendiary ammo.

Those weapon weights were pretty amusing.  My "heavy" polymer pistol weighs 800g.  But in game the weight is really an anti-cooldown mechanic, and I don't think we should really be using the "encumberance" number to represent what is supposed to be their actual weights.

As for your shields, they don't do much for you on Insanity. They didn't do much for you in ME1 or ME2 on Insanity either, but in those games you had Immunity plus high damage protection armor, or Hardened Adrenaline Rush combined with the ability to regen all your health. In ME2 I never worried about my health, I would just keep firing until it was low, then let it refill. In this game you can try to just rely on shield gate and health gate, but that isn't the most reliable method.

And Black Widow is still the best sniper rifle.

Modifié par capn233, 17 mai 2012 - 06:08 .

[SaturnRing]

I'm really torn, but i'll stick with Mantis/Widow. I have to admit the BW was certainlty worth the money.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

I haven't played Flashpoint even though i thought it was the most realistic on the market.

Still is, in form of ArmA2. Aircraft handling is still a bit "meh" - barrel roll and kulbit (a.k.a. Frolov Chakra) from hovering - easy, just have some altitude, plus ArmA driving is less funny and comfortable than OFP one (that's BIS games only, I don't care for those codelamers products), otherwise they great.

SaturnRing wrote...

But i'll give it a try ( I a ghost recon fanatic ).

Ghost Recon!
There is sale on Steam, btw.

SaturnRing wrote...

FDF?

Finnish Defense Force. In this case - giant, no, HUGE mod dedicated to, well, FDF in worlds of OFP, ArmA and ArmA2. OFP FDF is not as beautiful as OFrP, but total amount of modding and content they added...

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


Finnish Defense Force. In this case - giant, no, HUGE mod dedicated to, well, FDF in worlds of OFP, ArmA and ArmA2. OFP FDF is not as beautiful as OFrP, but total amount of modding and content they added...

AmrA was awesome.

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

Real life physics do apply to these weapons, at least according to the codex and with the small exception of the "mass effect" fields that they use to reduce the mass, and the momentum, of the projectile while it is in the weapon. That is why there is still recoil, conservation of the "reduced" momentum. It is also explained that this is why the recoil is substantially less than what it would be for the same muzzle energy or momentum if no fields were applied.  In that regime extended barrel and high caliber barrels should probably increase the recoil of the weapons.

There are many things according to Codex, but, apparently, existing only in Codex. Hypervelocity anywhere? High energy consumption by biotics? Nope.

capn233 wrote...

The radius evolution of CS is not particularly good, 1.5m maybe. The whole power doesn't work very well. Apparently they realized this in development and they decided to go quantity over quality with the ultra fast cooldown.

What was the problem properly write in proper numbers? It's been more than two months, damn, I received my Amazon "hard" copy of CE and sent it back, but they still don't fix it? *shakes head in disbelief*
And ultra-fast cooldown works when you don't have any overload. If you have - no ultrafast. And given "power" of this "power" - I see zero reason to race for short cooldown.

capn233 wrote...

As for weapons on Insanity, you can beat it with any of them. 

It's not about winning - it's about how fast you'll do that and how much pleasure you'll have in process and how much nerves lose in process.

capn233 wrote...

Those weapon weights were pretty amusing.  My "heavy" polymer pistol weighs 800g. 

Springfield XD? S&W M&P? CZ? HK? Or "he who started it all" - Glock?

capn233 wrote...

But in game the weight is really an anti-cooldown mechanic, and I don't think we should really be using the "encumberance" number to represent what is supposed to be their actual weights.

That's all we got. And since I don't believe in space magic, I prefer to believe in arithmetic.

capn233 wrote...

As for your shields, they don't do much for you on Insanity. They didn't do much for you in ME1 or ME2 on Insanity either, but in those games you had Immunity plus high damage protection armor, or Hardened Adrenaline Rush combined with the ability to regen all your health. In ME2 I never worried about my health, I would just keep firing until it was low, then let it refill. In this game you can try to just rely on shield gate and health gate, but that isn't the most reliable method.

I don't know, ME1 shields were pretty decent, unless you go into overcrowded bunkers like those on Luna. Otherwise I don't remember spamming Immunity that often.
In ME2 shields meant nothing on any difficulty, it was just like that: Boom - and they gone.
In ME3... Well, gating is really not reliable - generally if you hear that breaking glass sound then it's too late. And if there is slow-mo and strange sounds, then it's definitely too late, probably right the time to hit "load".
To be honest, I don't think health should be applied in games like that. Humans are just too "unpredictable" in terms of survival - humans are mortal, and what's worse - suddenly mortal. So I'd relied on Halo system>there are shields and if they gone, well, say g'bay.
And yes, I know Halo had health.

capn233 wrote...

And Black Widow is still the best sniper rifle.

After the Valiant, you mean.

SaturnRing wrote...

I'm really torn, but i'll stick with Mantis/Widow. I have to admit the BW was certainlty worth the money.

Since you don't have Indra and Valiant - yes. Otherwise, Raptor is almost as fast as ME2 Viper. Not as powerful, maybe.

SaturnRing wrote...

AmrA was awesome.

I'd say ArmA 2 is even more awesome. Not sure what to expect from ArmA3 - really, that "3" scares the hell out of me since March...

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

capn233 wrote...

Those weapon weights were pretty amusing.  My "heavy" polymer pistol weighs 800g. 

Springfield XD? S&W M&P? CZ? HK? Or "he who started it all" - Glock?

Damn. That low! That's no 1911. That does put ME3 guns weight in perspective - specially the Widow. You're talking space age polymer.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 17 mai 2012 - 08:29 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

Damn. That low! That's no 1911.

Plastic 1911?! That's heresy! Oh, wait!

[capn233]

Off topic, but it is a SIG.

As for Valiant, it is slightly more forgiving than BW, but it isn't better. Not that it matters anyway, I think most people have already formed their own opinion 10 pages ago.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

Damn. That low! That's no 1911.

Plastic 1911?! That's heresy! Oh, wait!

I saw that one coming. It was just a matter of time. Too many complaints about it being a thigh buster. All of a sudden i don't feel so sorry for Shepard hiking with J/W/BW on his/her back.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 17 mai 2012 - 08:51 .

[SaturnRing]

capn233 wrote...

Off topic, but it is a SIG.

As for Valiant, it is slightly more forgiving than BW, but it isn't better. Not that it matters anyway, I think most people have already formed their own opinion 10 pages ago.

Lucky you, specially if it's the 250 ( caliber change. Damn). How many rounds does the Valiant hold? Low mag capacity is what makes it along with the BW a hard sell(as the best SR anyway).

Modifié par SaturnRing, 17 mai 2012 - 08:46 .

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

Off topic, but it is a SIG.

Geez, I was sure I've forgotten someone!
P250 or SP2022?

capn233 wrote...

As for Valiant, it is slightly more forgiving than BW, but it isn't better. Not that it matters anyway, I think most people have already formed their own opinion 10 pages ago.

Actually BW is more forgiving - Valiant requires surgical precision from you.
And it is better as long as you have ammo - on naked runs it will be better and faster.

SaturnRing wrote...

I saw that one coming. It was just a matter of time. Too many complains about it being a thigh buster. All of a sudden i don't feel so sorry for Shepard hiking with J/W/BW on his/her back.

There already were polymer 1911, Bul, for example. I just see no point in them.

SaturnRing wrote...

How many rounds does the Valiant hold? Low mag capacity is what makes it along with the BW a hard sell(as the best SR anyway).

30+3. Always.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

There already were polymer 1911, Bul, for example. I just see no point in them.

Same here. At least not on that 45. From the moment they started chambering them in 9mm...it was expected.

30+3. Always.

They fire faster than the Widow or Mantis; not enough for me to switch.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 17 mai 2012 - 09:21 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

Same here. At least not on that 45. From the moment they started chambering them in 9mm...it was expected.

I've shot some .45 polymers.
And 1911 in 9, well, they kicks and flips less, good for training.

SaturnRing wrote...

They fire faster than the Widow or Mantis; not enough for me to switch.

Not sure I follow - Valiant is fastest SR, since Indra and Raptor are not purely SR.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


Not sure I follow - Valiant is fastest SR, since Indra and Raptor are not purely SR.

They all have a faster ROF than the Mantis/Widow. But even that won't win me over. I'm still "sticking to my guns".

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...


They all have a faster ROF than the Mantis/Widow. But even that won't win me over. I'm still "sticking to my guns".

They are not disposable - they are family?

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


They are not disposable - they are family?

Exactly! I have to start thinking about giving them a name.