550 réponses à ce sujet

[Wyatt Shepard]

JaegerBane wrote...

SmittyLovesYou wrote...

The valiant is by far the best. Light weight, good damage, low recoil, quick reload and multiple shots per clip.
For the most part that is all I carry, no smg, no pistol, just the valiant.

The mantis is my back-up. Light weight, good damage, and with the infiltrator's time dilation getting the headshots isn't hard. Got to have a back up though for the close to mid range, phalanx is preferred (please bring back the laser sight, I hate that scope)

P.S. - I really don't know why people love the widows, they're sooo heavy. And they're so inefficient unless your going up against Brutes, Primes, or mechs.

I think the thing with the Valiant is that its less of a traditional video game sniper rifle (MUST 1S1K EVERYTHING) and more a dedicated, specialised long range weapon. Full power scope, suppressed recoil, semi-auto firing, relatively high impact rounds, fast reload and access to all the sniper mods - it feels like it was designed to allow the user to engage any opponent under any conditions at long range... hence its very flexible. In comparison, the widows and the javelin feel like they were more orientated towards purely 1S1K approach... which is a much narrower niche and, once the Valiant has been upgraded, its not even worth anything as the Valiant ends up 1-shotting the majority of the enemies the Widows/Javelin 1-shot.

I have to admit that I can see the draw of the Black Widow at least... I just don't think its really worth the 250k over and above the Valiant. Hell, I'm not convinced the Black Widow is actually better than the Valiant at all.

Agreed. The Black Widow has more stopping power, a bit, but it's slow reload and massive weight meant I eventually dumped it and when back to the Valiant, which is a lighter, more flexible weapon.

[Kiadaw]

So many pages!!

I think its fair to say Bioware did a great job in the weapons, that no one weapon is outright superior than others. Not to mention each weapon have a unique feel & purpose to it.

I do enjoy experiment with the different weapons.

[SaturnRing]

JaegerBane wrote...

SmittyLovesYou wrote...

The valiant is by far the best. Light weight, good damage, low recoil, quick reload and multiple shots per clip.
For the most part that is all I carry, no smg, no pistol, just the valiant.

The mantis is my back-up. Light weight, good damage, and with the infiltrator's time dilation getting the headshots isn't hard. Got to have a back up though for the close to mid range, phalanx is preferred (please bring back the laser sight, I hate that scope)

P.S. - I really don't know why people love the widows, they're sooo heavy. And they're so inefficient unless your going up against Brutes, Primes, or mechs.

I think the thing with the Valiant is that its less of a traditional video game sniper rifle (MUST 1S1K EVERYTHING) and more a dedicated, specialised long range weapon. Full power scope, suppressed recoil, semi-auto firing, relatively high impact rounds, fast reload and access to all the sniper mods - it feels like it was designed to allow the user to engage any opponent under any conditions at long range... hence its very flexible. In comparison, the widows and the javelin feel like they were more orientated towards purely 1S1K approach... which is a much narrower niche and, once the Valiant has been upgraded, its not even worth anything as the Valiant ends up 1-shotting the majority of the enemies the Widows/Javelin 1-shot.

I have to admit that I can see the draw of the Black Widow at least... I just don't think its really worth the 250k over and above the Valiant. Hell, I'm not convinced the Black Widow is actually better than the Valiant at all.

In a perfect world, W and BW aren't the type of weapon that i would take hiking - for their lack of versatility - unless they can be easily taken apart(M99) and carried by the whole squad. To me they fit situations that  require a concealed fixed firing position - allowing the shooter/spotter to gain from a relatively low rof without having to waste time constantly reacquiring targets - more accuracy form bolt action(Mantis/W/Javelin) vs faster rof from semi-auto(BW) totally up to the player. Being able to engage materials and personnels from "relative security" is what, to me, they were designed for. That unfortunately involves carrying a secondary weapon (AR or SMG) for clearing/securing potential FP, or insertions/evac operations. I wish stealth(suppressed weapons) was implemented in the gameplay to make all those functions a little more defined.   

Modifié par SaturnRing, 24 mai 2012 - 03:22 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

I wish stealth(suppressed weapons) was implemented in the gameplay to make all those functions a little more defined.   

Suppressed weapon doesn't fits hypersonic rounds, sound barrier, shockwave and all that.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

I wish stealth(suppressed weapons) was implemented in the gameplay to make all those functions a little more defined.   

Suppressed weapon doesn't fits hypersonic rounds, sound barrier, shockwave and all that.

There has to be a way to implement the "silencer concept" to ME weapons.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

There has to be a way to implement the "silencer concept" to ME weapons.

Bullet should be subsonic, otherwise I don't know how.
Well, in theory - ingame weapon is somewhat silent - victim shouldn't be able to hear your shot if you OSOK her.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Bullet should be subsonic, otherwise I don't know how.
Well, in theory - ingame weapon is somewhat silent - victim shouldn't be able to hear your shot if you OSOK her.

 Weird feeling receiving contact before sound. Not that the victim would care at that point.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

 Weird feeling receiving contact before sound. Not that the victim would care at that point.

Aren't most modern rounds supersonic already, so victim will receive contact before sound anyway? It's not she we care about, it's her company - we don't want to notify them of our presence.

Anyway, main factors of noise:
- Moving weapon parts.
- Projectile breaking sound barrier.
- Propellant gases.

Apparently there are no gases ("expanding hot mass effect field"?), few if any moving parts, so there is only projectile. Since those projectiles rely on velocity, not mass, to keep energy... Well, I don't think we will be able to have suppressed weapons in game, otherwise we'll have to carry solid chunks of metal, to keep energy level of projectile acceptable to dealing enough damage. Add shields with unknown minimal blocking velocity...

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

 Weird feeling receiving contact before sound. Not that the victim would care at that point.

Aren't most modern rounds supersonic already, so victim will receive contact before sound anyway? It's not she we care about, it's her company - we don't want to notify them of our presence.

I was talking real weapons. And being under fire wierd dynamic. 

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Anyway, main factors of noise:
- Moving weapon parts.
- Projectile breaking sound barrier.
- Propellant gases.

Apparently there are no gases ("expanding hot mass effect field"?), few if any moving parts, so there is only projectile. Since those projectiles rely on velocity, not mass, to keep energy... Well, I don't think we will be able to have suppressed weapons in game, otherwise we'll have to carry solid chunks of metal, to keep energy level of projectile acceptable to dealing enough damage. Add shields with unknown minimal blocking velocity...

So ME weapons shouldn't generate so much noise in the first place.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

I was talking real weapons.

Likewise.

SaturnRing wrote...

So ME weapons shouldn't generate so much noise in the first place.

Comparing to that loud "PheweeeeBOOOM!" sounding every time you using Mass Relay - I don't think so.


Plus, if there is software and hardware, allowing you to aim better, I think it will be stupid to not have software and hardware to detect incoming fire direction. I think French have them already, as anti-sniper measures - since you can hide that "propellant" crack, hide muzzle blast, but you never cannot hide sounds, made by flying bullet.

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


Comparing to that loud "PheweeeeBOOOM!" sounding every time you using Mass Relay - I don't think so.


Plus, if there is software and hardware, allowing you to aim better, I think it will be stupid to not have software and hardware to detect incoming fire direction. I think French have them already, as anti-sniper measures - since you can hide that "propellant" crack, hide muzzle blast, but you never cannot hide sounds, made by flying bullet.

So more emphasis should be put on deception, from a sniper/SR standpoint; like tech feeding the enemy with wrong(altered) direction/velocity readings...
Edit: A little like what the Geths used in ME1 to jam Shepard's radar.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 24 mai 2012 - 05:24 .

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

So more emphasis should be put on deception, from a sniper/SR standpoint; like tech feeding the enemy with wrong(altered) direction/velocity readings...

That's ECM, not weapon related. And you you know - I like gun. 

In theory you can have drone with lightweight sniper rifle with modded ammo, generating a lot of noise and traces. Drone moving somewhere away from your position and draw attention away a few moments before your own shot.
Yet IMHO it should be at relatively your angle, otherwise secondary tracer could, well, "Trace" your shot by weaker signature.
AFAIR Stinger targetting system was able to tell heat of Soviet engines from heat of their flares, so...

SaturnRing wrote...

Edit: A little like what the Geths used in ME1 to jam Shepard's radar.

I'm not sure how that radar worked at all, if Geth, unlike Glocks, mostly polymer. What, 87%? Plus radar detected every enemy. Maybe it detected mass effect field from weapon generator? But it also detecter missile turrets and varrens. Very high-tech ****, eh?

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 24 mai 2012 - 05:26 .

[SaturnRing]

Rudy Lis wrote...


That's ECM, not weapon related. And you you know - I like gun. 

In theory you can have drone with lightweight sniper rifle with modded ammo, generating a lot of noise and traces. Drone moving somewhere away from your position and draw attention away a few moments before your own shot.
Yet IMHO it should be at relatively your angle, otherwise secondary tracer could, well, "Trace" your shot by weaker signature.
AFAIR Stinger targetting system was able to tell heat of Soviet engines from heat of their flares, so...

A Stinger is scary enough. AFAIR, well...
To get back to tracing signatures, that device has to pretty cumbersome and has to be carried around. Take it out and then...although by the time we hit 2154 it'll be miniaturized and install on suit's computers. i'm thinking more about something that would alter readings; that combined with a more permanent cloaking ability. Enemy radar in general don't seem to have long range capabilities.
I'm so speculating at this point.

I'm not sure how that radar worked at all, if Geth, unlike Glocks, mostly polymer. What, 87%? Plus radar detected every enemy. Maybe it detected mass effect field from weapon generator? But it also detecter missile turrets and varrens. Very high-tech ****, eh?

Yeah probably 80 - 85% polymer. I'm not thinking denying intel but more bouncing it around.

[Rudy Lis]

SaturnRing wrote...

To get back to tracing signatures, that device has to pretty cumbersome and has to be carried around. Take it out and then...although by the time we hit 2154 it'll be miniaturized and install on suit's computers. 

Aha. For example, suit could have sensors on wrists, anklesm chest/back plates, maybe helmet. With highly sophisticated processing powers and/or working together with group computers, there will be more than enough sensors to triangulate sniper position. So it will be one-shot anyway.
Even for close combat - after each shot enemy should have a links to tracers, telling him from which directions he's been fired at.

SaturnRing wrote...

i'm thinking more about something that would alter readings; that combined with a more permanent cloaking ability.

To alter enemy readings, outcoming signal should be quite powerful, no? Maybe if this is "directional" i.e. very narrow signal, guiding to enemy receiver, isolated somehow from others, then it could be less powerful, but still, pretty much high-tech, in case enemy have more powerful processing powers, allowing them to ignore your ECM.

And speaking of cloaking - I'm not sure how it works, but if now there are system amplifying light coming through optical sights (again, counter-sniper stuff), why there can not be something similar, analazying cloaked patterns with existing pibedals silhouettes, since cloaked figures still maintain it? Actually I was hoping for some headgear with it, one effects of which we could personally saw, but no, IR exist only on Garrus' visor. Pfeh.

SaturnRing wrote...

Enemy radar in general don't seem to have long range capabilities.

40 metres in general. 400 for our Mako.
Given on enemies behavior, I think most of them are scripted to those 40 metres. And our allies as well. So stupid.

SaturnRing wrote...

I'm so speculating at this point.

Aren't we all?

SaturnRing wrote...

Yeah probably 80 - 85% polymer. I'm not thinking denying intel but more bouncing it around.

I think it comes from Legion's response to Quarians on Rayya, when you got there for Tali's loyalty mission.

[capn233]

You guys are talking about all sorts of random stuff now

It is interesting that some say the BW isn't worth the money over the Val. Maybe, maybe not. For those that don't have the Val it is definitely worth the cash. I think it is even if you have the Val.

As for sound, a couple things. Yeah if these rounds are supersonic you should still get a sonic boom. They are supposed to be "significant fractions of c" in speed, so we need to ignore the gameplay mechanic where sniper bullets only travel at 30mph. I wouldn't discount discharging high voltage capacitors and running a big current through the rails either. Maybe I am making a poor assumption about the current required for the rail, perhaps it is all used in the ME field generator. Half of that is not knowable, but a real railgun is still pretty loud, even if it is quieter than a propellant powered gun of half the energy.

All of that said, I was still a proponent of a "suppressor" mod way back when people were creating wish lists for the weapon mods but envisioned it more as some other odd future tech instead of a can like we have nowadays. At least the variable choke I suggested made it in, although I am not claiming they necessarily got that idea from me.

Stinger uses a UV sensor in combination with the IR to discriminate countermeasures vs target. No space magic. For all the stuff in the future armor, the sensor suites are somewhat limited in comparison. That's ok, I play the game for fun, not sensory overload.

[Kronner]

Valiant is such a boring weapon though. It has no recoil, and it's way too easy to score headshots with it. Where's the fun in that?

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

You guys are talking about all sorts of random stuff now

Not random - "collaterally" it is related to sniping and stealth. Since comparing "future" in ME and "present" in games like Splinter Cell, GRAW (both consoles, so "saving memory" doesn't count - they both older, looks better and provide better "techy stuff") and ArmA makes "future" looks pale in comparison.

capn233 wrote...

It is interesting that some say the BW isn't worth the money over the Val. Maybe, maybe not. For those that don't have the Val it is definitely worth the cash. I think it is even if you have the Val.

Well, difference is that you have to pay real money for Valiant. And for me those 20 bucks difference is the only "valid" purchase.

Comparing BW and Valiant is meaningless, since one and only case when Valiant will lose is one when it's empty.  I'm not kidding - Valiant loses to BW only for longer fights against heavily armoured targets, without ammo powers active AND without ability to resupply. If you have decent ammo power (IA/AP/WA) or/and lurk near ammo cache, then Valiant is practically unstoppable, since as long as you have ammo, you will deliver damage faster, even without ammo powers, mods, Glyph and Armour bonuses, thus dealing with enemies faster. And somewhat big-game is easier to shoot at, since "wherever you shot - it hurts same".

capn233 wrote...

As for sound, a couple things. Yeah if these rounds are supersonic you should still get a sonic boom. They are supposed to be "significant fractions of c" in speed, so we need to ignore the gameplay mechanic where sniper bullets only travel at 30mph. I wouldn't discount discharging high voltage capacitors and running a big current through the rails either. Maybe I am making a poor assumption about the current required for the rail, perhaps it is all used in the ME field generator. Half of that is not knowable, but a real railgun is still pretty loud, even if it is quieter than a propellant powered gun of half the energy.

Hmm. If there are no gases, but electricity discharge, then why it's not possible to detect that discharge, instead of expelling gases? It's still signature, probably withing certain limits - all you need is to upload known weapon signatures into sensors scan for them. Of course that could lead to create discharging countermeasures as well.
And, as you said - even if there is no discharge, there is still "BOOM"

capn233 wrote...

All of that said, I was still a proponent of a "suppressor" mod way back when people were creating wish lists for the weapon mods but envisioned it more as some other odd future tech instead of a can like we have nowadays. At least the variable choke I suggested made it in, although I am not claiming they necessarily got that idea from me.

Existing mods look a bit odd and out of place, especially if we begin our comparison between Paladin/Carnifex and W/BW size/weight/power.

capn233 wrote...

Stinger uses a UV sensor in combination with the IR to discriminate countermeasures vs target. No space magic.

I know. I was telling about instant lack of efficiency of old flares. New flares were eventually developed, but it took years. So I was wondering, how long it will took for someone to develop new system to "clog" (if jamming or bypassing won't work) sensor's channels. And long it will took to develop countermeasures for that.
And how expensive it all be, till Council show their pretty arses and say that's violation, right after salarians will copy everything.

capn233 wrote...

For all the stuff in the future armor, the sensor suites are somewhat limited in comparison.

If modern "old and cumbersome" systems are "jeep-portable", I think modern ones could be quite man-portable. More sophisticated systems could be IFV/APC portable, since given ME1 projeticles velocities, I think this is only way to detect vehicle shooting from hull-down and retreating into deeper cover after shot.

capn233 wrote...

That's ok, I play the game for fun, not sensory overload.

And I want to know how all that works. I don't believe in "space magic" explanation.

Kronner wrote...

Valiant is such a boring weapon though. It has no recoil, and it's way too easy to score headshots with it. Where's the fun in that?

What the fun carry big, long, heavy, slowfiring gun with big muzzleflip, that fires four times slower and deal less damage?
Right - Jedem das Seine.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 25 mai 2012 - 08:38 .

[Leon Zweihander]

BW superiority over Valiant may be limited to Infiltrator, since that's the only class I've played. No matter how fast the Valiant fires and reloads, it can't beat the BW's dps when all it needs is a bodyshot compared to the Valiant's headshot. As for the heavy mobs, two shots with Tactical Cloak goes to BW again thanks to its higher base damage. Power recharge is only the Valiant's saving grace for the Infiltrator, even then you're looking at milliseconds saved on Tactical Cloak (Powers will be taking advantage of TC6's bonus power). Imo it's not worth it, again this is limited to the Infiltrator.

[Kronner]

Also, Black Widow synergizes with Cloak much better than Valiant:
With Black Widow it's shot-shot-shot, reload cancel with Cloak, shot-shot-shot etc.
Valiant reloads much quicker, so you will either wait for cloak to cooldown or be exposed.

Not to mention Valiant is super boring sniper rifle that requires little to no skill. In my opinion anyway.

Modifié par Kronner, 25 mai 2012 - 01:11 .

[SaturnRing]

capn233 wrote...


All of that said, I was still a proponent of a "suppressor" mod way back when people were creating wish lists for the weapon mods but envisioned it more as some other odd future tech instead of a can like we have nowadays. At least the variable choke I suggested made it in, although I am not claiming they necessarily got that idea from me.

Really cool.
As for a Valiant/BW matchup, it only depends on what i wanna do with my SR. As the primary shooter, i would carry the BW - if i don't mind the weight; however its cumbersome(ness) would confine me to a more specialized role and i'd be forced to carry a backup weapon; its caliber is well suited for hard targets but overkill on soft ones( it does depend on the difficulty level); although not as lethal the Valiant (from what i've gathered) is lighter and more flexible. Perfect for my role as the secondary shooter. It offers an easier transition from long/mid to close range engagements. Relying on a backup gun is less of a necessity. Only my humble opinion - based on my playing style rather than the guns real capabilities. 

Modifié par SaturnRing, 25 mai 2012 - 02:01 .

[Rudy Lis]

Kronner wrote...

Also, Black Widow synergizes with Cloak much better than Valiant:
With Black Widow it's shot-shot-shot, reload cancel with Cloak, shot-shot-shot etc.
Valiant reloads much quicker, so you will either wait for cloak to cooldown or be exposed.

I was comparing guns, and guns with mods, Glyph and armour bonuses and ammo powers. I didn't used my Adrenaline Rush, for example.

Kronner wrote...

Not to mention Valiant is super boring sniper rifle that requires little to no skill. In my opinion anyway.

Da wot?
Delivering headshots at 50 metres and beyond without time dilation requring no skill?
I'm hopeless.

[Kronner]

Rudy Lis wrote...

I was comparing guns, and guns with mods, Glyph and armour bonuses and ammo powers. I didn't used my Adrenaline Rush, for example. 

 

I wasn't commenting on your test. I merely added some additional info to a post directly above.

Rudy Lis wrote... 
Da wot?
Delivering headshots at 50 metres and beyond without time dilation requring no skill?
I'm hopeless.

What I mean is that Valiant makes it way too easy to snipe thanks to the fact that no recoil is present. Just bores me to death in a matter of minutes.

[Rudy Lis]

Kronner wrote...

I wasn't commenting on your test. I merely added some additional info to a post directly above.

Well, I can't say much to Infiltrator, really, but if it has same amount of health and shields as Soldier, I see no problems to be exposed a little.

Kronner wrote...

What I mean is that Valiant makes it way too easy to snipe thanks to the fact that no recoil is present.

Yeah, but it requires very precise work from you to turn most of the game on Insanity to Narrative, otherwise there will be no OSOK.

Kronner wrote...

Just bores me to death in a matter of minutes.

If you up to the challenge - play Indra, Raptor or Incirsor without ammo powers. Very refreshing - empty whole Indra ammo supply to Banshee and see how that thing is not even a half-way dead.
Not too much recoil, but a lot of splashes from points of impact, very distracting. And obstructing.

[capn233]

I am not on board with the idea that Val is better than BW except before you can afford BW. You get Val for free and basically right away. That's nice. It does very good DPS and it has little recoil. It does about 61% the damage per shot of the BW though and that indeed is important.

Practically speaking, you are nearly never able to take advantage of the higher DPS on the Val anyway as you will be reacquiring a new target unless you are talking about large targets, and there I still do not think you will bring a whole lot of advantage to bear on the enemy, at least not if you have the massive Cloak bonus or even ARush's bonus on the BW.  And there is the consideration of passive cover penetration you get on BW that does indeed damage Atlases faster (slight exploit).

For soldier specifically, Val is decent for supplying DPS under ARush because reloads are fast. But firing 6 Black Widow shots in quick succession doesn't leave much left on any of the battlefields in the game either. And in the few fights were there are enough enemies where that doesn't make a sizable dent, you aren't going to be staying out of cover firing the Val much longer anyway since you won't be able to take all the return fire.

These two weapons are still fairly similar in MP as to SP, unlike many others, and there I find the Val a lateral move from the BW on an infiltrator, and still basically a wash on Soldier. On any of the other classes Val is probably better because it is much lighter.  MP seems to vindicate burst damage (not necessarily burst dps) over dps when choosing your weapon though, which is partly why I am still partial to BW overall.

Modifié par capn233, 25 mai 2012 - 10:38 .