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[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

I am not on board with the idea that Val is better than BW except before you can afford BW. You get Val for free and basically right away. That's nice. It does very good DPS and it has little recoil. It does about 61% the damage per shot of the BW though and that indeed is important.

What's more important, that because of better RoF and lack of muzzle flip, you can make your shots faster, shift fire faster and since you still need two shots do deal with mid-game (Centurions, Marauders, etc) regardless of your weapon, with Valiant you can make those shots faster, thus all - allowing you to dispose of them faster. Now excuse me, I fail to see how BW is better.
I do not take MP into consideration, since I have -273K wishes to play it, so that's about same amount of care I give about MP, sorry.

capn233 wrote...

Practically speaking, you are nearly never able to take advantage of the higher DPS on the Val anyway as you will be reacquiring a new target unless you are talking about large targets, and there I still do not think you will bring a whole lot of advantage to bear on the enemy, at least not if you have the massive Cloak bonus or even ARush's bonus on the BW.  And there is the consideration of passive cover penetration you get on BW that does indeed damage Atlases faster (slight exploit).

Oh, please, don't tell me about practically spoken taken advantages, since I beat game 4 times with Valiant and play endless amount of replays of certain missions with it, testing ammo, armour and mods.
Reacquiring targets is not rocket surgery. Like I said above, I don't care about MP, but since I played on basic N7 maps in SP, I'd say enemies' avenues of approach are relatively narrow, so you don't need to perform about turn each time to deal with somebody.
So all I know - missions I've done with Valiant were faster than missions with another types of weapon (technically Indra with IEA was fastest in most cases). And those were missions with soloing Valiant (outside of few rare cases, like Phantoms, where I prefered to switch to shotgun). Yes, gap is not that big - 1-2-3 minutes, rarely more, but it is there, and for 12-15 minutes mission I'd say it's not that small. I know, I cannot recreate exactly the same conditions as before, but I try to replicate them as close as I could.  
Speaking of Atlas - and how faster BW is? Number of shots, time taken, ammo, mods, armour?

capn233 wrote...

For soldier specifically, Val is decent for supplying DPS under ARush because reloads are fast. But firing 6 Black Widow shots in quick succession doesn't leave much left on any of the battlefields in the game either. And in the few fights were there are enough enemies where that doesn't make a sizable dent, you aren't going to be staying out of cover firing the Val much longer anyway since you won't be able to take all the return fire.

As you know, I don't use Adrenaline Rush.
And even if I did, I fail to see how using it with BW can give you any advantages over not using it or using Valiant - you still need to deliver 1-2 headshots on small and mid-game to dispose of them, regardless of ammo (unless DA works differently on Infiltrator, since I wasn't able to bypass shield gating from anything on anyone (or I simply misunderstood your several pages earlier)) and other "variables". For dealing with big game - well, maybe there is substantial bonus for BW giving way they implemented Adrenaline Rush, I really don't know, never tested it, and do not want, really.
Valiant's mag split is 4 seconds, while BW's 7 (without interrupted reload which I consider a glitch and do not use). I'd say that's almost twice faster. Also Valiant is capable to empty mag in about 2 seconds (and BW can do only two shots for that time), and if those two seconds are enough to strip you of your shield, you either chose wrong position or wrong moment to pop-out (I admit, I did that). I think I don't need to point out that less time you spent out of cover, the less damage you will take, no? Especially thanks to new dual "out of cover" stances, cake to creator of that idea.

I admit, I don't know how guns works under effects of Cloak or Adrenaline (and I find it quite hilarious), but without them, Valiant is faster. As long as you have ammo, of course.

[Seifer006]

I've enjoyed the Indra also

[goofyomnivore]

A Black Widow to me gives better results on the Solider/Infiltrator.. other classes I'd use a Valiant.. but honestly a Carnifex/Paladin can perform the same niche just as well for almost no weight cost.

[SaturnRing]

 I wish they had it in black or camo.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 31 mai 2012 - 01:46 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Valiant is such a boring weapon though.
It has no recoil, and it's way too easy to score headshots with it.
Where's the fun in that?

*scratches head*

Well... I suppose I can see the argument that you have more bragging rights for using the Black Widow... but I really can't see the logic of saying its inferior because its easier to use. But I guess one's opinion trumps all else when we're talking about which weapon one prefers using.

capn233 wrote...
Practically speaking, you are nearly never able to take advantage of the higher DPS on the Val anyway as you will be reacquiring a new target unless you are talking about large targets, and there I still do not think you will bring a whole lot of advantage to bear on the enemy, at least not if you have the massive Cloak bonus or even ARush's bonus on the BW.  And there is the consideration of passive cover penetration you get on BW that does indeed damage Atlases faster (slight exploit).

If we're talking about practical experiences then things really don't sit in the Black Widow's corner - much of the Black Widow's advantages are orientated towards 1S1Ks, and if it doesn't get them (which, practically, it isn't on most defended targets) then the combination of heavy recoil, lower fire rate and lower reload speed all combine to defeat any gain its extra damage would have granted. 'Practically' speaking, the Valiant is going to deliver 6+ rounds in the time it takes the BW to manage three on target plus a reload. Under most scenarios, the Valiant will pull ahead.

That said, if you don't have the Valiant, its definitely a superior sniper rifle to the others. The BW strikes a balance between semi-auto and bolt-action rifles that no other rifle manages. The only other rifle I'd recommend would be the Indra, although it functions more like a scoped assault rifle.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 31 mai 2012 - 06:06 .

[capn233]

JaegerBane wrote...
'Practically' speaking, the Valiant is going to deliver 6+ rounds in the time it takes the BW to manage three on target plus a reload. Under most scenarios, the Valiant will pull ahead.

It's good that this claim has been modified to be closer to reality.

It takes 4.97s to fire 3 Black Widow shots and reload without animation canceling (which is quite viable on every single long period reloading weapon).  In that time you can indeed fire the Valiant 3 times, reload, and then fire 3 times again.  You do not have time to complete the next reload and fire additional shots.  At least you didn't say you could fire 6 or 7 Val shots in the time it takes to fire 3 from the Black Widow...

If you are hitting all your shots at max rate of fire with the Valiant you are a pretty good shot.  Maybe unbelievably so given how the enemies are arranged in most missions.  If you are that good you should be able to compensate for the Black Widow's recoil, and cut the reload time to something like 0.8s with animation canceling.  In any event I do not think the Valiant's rate of fire is that big of an advantage when you consider reacquiring targets and factor in misses (which are more likely as you increase rate of fire).

The Val does give you better DPS at the cost of worse ammunition capacity, at least if you consider that capacity in terms of total damage applied (which is how you should, as damage per shot is different).  It is lighter though, and that is a plus for caster classes.

The Black Widow can kill practically any mid tier enemy in the game with a single cloaked shot after their shield or barrier is gone.  Don't think the Val can do that in SP, it can't in MP.  The faster rate of fire and reload speed also is not much of an advantage on infiltrator where you are waiting 3s in between cloak cycles anyway.  Of course you could continue firing without cloak bonus and either delay the next cloak or cloak at partial capacity, but you aren't taking advantage of the best damage multiplier in the game.  And of course weight isn't all that big of an issue here, especially if you just want to abuse cloak minimum cooldown.

On a Soldier it is a little less clear mainly because ARush's longer duration would tend to favor DPS which on paper is the Valiant.  The problem is that with the instant reload that greatly increases Black Widow's DPS.  3 shots, instant reload with ARush activation, and 3 more shots will kill a Brute in London (if your soldier is spec'd correctly). 2 shots then the ARush 3 if you hit the Brute with Warp first.  Soldier also has enough weight capacity where Black Widow is not a problem (especially if you take the last bonus).

Then there is the issue of the recoil.  Valiant doesn't actually return to neutral despite the small recoil.  On BW you are on target easily if you fire, unscope and rescope.  You don't really even notice the recoil then.  And it seems to be neutral anyway, as long as you aren't jittery and move the mouse during the recoil.

But yes, I do think the Valiant is a good rifle.  It is practically the only one you could make a case for as being as good or better than the Black Widow as a sniper rifle.  But I still do not think it is quite as good overall.  And that is from using them both myself in single and multiplayer on various classes.

[capn233]

Further elaboration, and then I will have finished commenting on this topic.

N7 Cerberus Fighter Base
Infiltrator Level 49
DA 6 - Damage/Headshots/Damage
TC 6 - Damage/Recharge/SR Damage
OM 6 - Weapon Damage/Weight Capacity/SR Damage
N7 Armor + Kuwashii Visor (+5% Weapon Damage, +10% HS damage)
Intel Bonuses: +10% Weapon Damage

Black Widow and Valiant both at Level V with Extended Barrel V and SR Piercing IV. At this level, Black Widow has 3/19 for thermal clip capacity, and Valiant has 3/30 (Val never changes by level).

This mission was done right after Citadel Coup. I played it several times. This is a snapshot in time in a game. NG+ should in theory push the weapons hardest since weapons are capped at Level V and enemies scale with your level. However, there are more damage bonuses from armor available than what I took. There are 3 Hahne-Kedar armor pieces available at this stage of the game, or the Armax shoulders and arms if you prefer the headshot bonus.

Cerberus Assault Troopers: With the Black Widow you could one-shot them with a body shot under cloak bonus. Alternatively it took 1 headshot out of cloak or two body shots. With the Valiant, you can also potentially one-shot them in and out of cloak with headshots, but it takes 2 body shots in cloak, or 3 out of it.

Centurions - Both weapons can kill a Centurion with 2 headshots under cloak bonus. The Black Widow can also kill with 2 uncloaked body shots, whereas the Valiant cannot (it takes 3 body shots under cloak, or 5 without cloak).

Nemesis - Black Widow could kill it with two uncloaked body shots. The Valiant needed headshots to kill it uncloaked in 2 shots, otherwise it took 4 uncloaked body shots.

Engineer - This one is interesting in that I could fairly consistently shoot him through the torso with one shot from the Black Widow and cause his pack to blow up and kill him in a single shot. Otherwise it takes 2 shots if you don't hit the pack. With the Valiant it seemed like it never wanted to penetrate through the engineer and detonate the pack, which I don't understand because SR Piercing 4 should have sufficient cover penetration distance, so it must be the damage reduction that is preventing the pack from blowing up. You can kill the engineer with 2 cloaked shots, 2 uncloaked headshots, or 3 uncloaked body shots.

Guardian - There is only one on this mission and I didn't feel like extensively testing this. You can kill him in a single headshot from either weapon. I did however want to compare cover penetration so I took cloaked shots through the shield into the torso. Black Widow killed him in 2 shots, but Valiant took 4.

Atlas - Since the reload speed of the Black Widow jives well with the cloak cooldown, I only took cloaked shots with it. It took 9 shots to kill the Atlas (this is post patch). The 8th actually broke the canopy and the 9th killed the pilot and exploded the Atlas. Since the Valiant's ROF is higher and it has faster reload, I attempted to simply fire it as fast as possible. Fired 3 shots cloaked, then 3 more, then recloak and fire 3, and repeat. This took 18 shots.  You are of course exposed to the Atlas longer if you fire the Valiant this way.

The Squad and Rifles:
I had Garrus and Ashley come along so I could re-check rate of fire on the Valiant specifically. They seemed to each fire about 1 shot every 3 seconds on average, with no attack order instruction, just parking them where they could see enemies. They would reload after the 3rd shot.

With the Mantis, they also fired an average of 1 shot every 3 seconds despite the fact that they reloaded after every shot. Likewise, the Black Widow also seemed to average about 1 shot every 3 seconds. They would reload after the 3rd shot. The Viper seemed to be fired at it's max ROF for a "burst" that was about 3 shots typically. I did not test them this time, but I know the squad also fired the Raptor and Indra more or less at their max rate of fire in bursts. I also know that Garrus seems to fire the Javelin and Widow similarly to the Black Widow and Mantis from previous games.

Modifié par capn233, 01 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[SaturnRing]

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

Ah! Yes. Camo.

[Gezr]

It would have to be my favourite since ME2, M-98 Widow. Concentration mod and extended barrel, plus the ammo bonus of Cryo ammo and I'm off to 1-hit shatters.

I do use the Indra in MP for it's full auto mode though, but I'd still prefer to go back to 1-hit, 1-kill rifles like the Mantis and the Widow if I ever get better at playing with a dualshock.

[Arctican]

Raptor, for when I just don't give a damn about using powers to strip shields and mow down enemies left and right.

And how did you get that camo? Looks sweet.

[SaturnRing]

Arctican wrote...

Raptor, for when I just don't give a damn about using powers to strip shields and mow down enemies left and right.

And how did you get that camo? Looks sweet.

A friend from another thread. With PC mods. 

[Sriep]

For the infiltrator you want as a single shot as you are going to nip back into cover for a sec or two for your cloak to recharge anyway. the M-92 Mantis until Rannoch then Javelin. Maybe using the M-98 Widow in non Cerberus missions if the aiming thing irritates you. Personally I prefer the Widow.

For soldier you want to get as many shots in as possible during adrenaline rush. Think I go with the M-97 Vipor.

I don't have access to any of the promo ones so have not considered them.

Modifié par Sriep, 06 juin 2012 - 10:59 .

[shards7]

Mantis. Fantastic damage paired with a low weight.

[JaegerBane]

Sriep wrote...
For soldier you want to get as many shots in as possible during adrenaline rush. Think I go with the M-97 Vipor.

The Raptor is a better choice, if that's the case. The Viper has a horrible combination of stats.

[GloryToChaos]

I'm going to have to go with the Indra. I've played quite a few matches with the raptor and I just can't get the hang on the semi-auto. To me it feels like the raptor is a weapon without a class. It's not really powerful enough to take advantage of a Tac Cloak damage bonus and I'm not really accurate enough to land consistent headshots.

The damage difference between the raptor and the Indra is also pretty negligible. Considering you have ten more bullets per clip the potential for more damage and shield destruction is vastly increased. With marksman active the Indra hits with pinpoint accuracy. You can pretty much just take apart infantry with clip after clip of shredding salvos.

And let's be honest, the Indra is just TOO fun to use to be ignored.

[GloryToChaos]

I also feel like the Kishock Harpoon gun is pretty over-looked. Granted, you'll hit with it only once out of every 5 shots you make but when you hit it is both hilarious and awesome.

[Grimez7]

 Black Widow X, good for taking out large enemies and can take out 3 enemies per clip if you aim for the heads.

[BJshepard]

Sniper RIfles have never been a specialty of mine but I have done the best with the raptor based on the ones I have used, because I am much better at getting body shots than head shots despite being fairly good at head shots with an AR which is really ironic.

[RA RA XD]

Necro of the year, mate... A friendly reminder to PLEASE check the dates on past posts before replying 

Hopefully a mod will lock down the thread ASAP.

Modifié par RA RA XD, 08 mai 2013 - 10:14 .

[SaturnRing]

BJshepard wrote...

Sniper RIfles have never been a specialty of mine but I have done the best with the raptor based on the ones I have used, because I am much better at getting body shots than head shots despite being fairly good at head shots with an AR which is really ironic.

Hitting center mass is never a bad idea. You rarely really get that many clear headshots anyway - As long as your weapon is powerful enough to put targets down or allow for fast follow up shots - which is the case with the Raptor. It makes sense that an AR allow for easier target (body parts) acquisition - at least when compared to a SR. 

Modifié par SaturnRing, 21 mai 2013 - 03:27 .

[Brickyracer8655]

Black Widow (esp. level x) is definitely my sniper of choice as an infiltrator, but leaving the widow variants out of the equation then I'd choose the Valiant or the Mantis. I do like to carry a sniper rifle when I play as an engineer, but I don't want weight capacity to be an issue for a power heavy class, so then I use the Indra. I don't think the Viper is terrible, but it isn't even remotely close to how good it was in ME2

 

I know the Javelin is a popular sniper rifle, but I'm just not a fan of charged weapons in general (except the Scorpion pistol). I tried using the Javelin and the only thing I liked about it was the built-in thermal scope (I think that was the Javelin). Personally, I feel that in the short time it takes to charge, a moving target could  compromise the shot. Of course, the lag time might considered an advantage if it allows you to realign a shot when a target moves unexpectedly. A matter of personal preference.

 

I know it doesn't count, but I have used the Executioner Pistol as a substitute mini sniper rifle on a few occasions (really just for kicks) and it got the job done.

[Vazgen]

Mantis X. Hits like a Widow, weighs like a pistol. It just so satisfying to pop out the heatsink after another exploded Cerberus trooper head

[Gladerunner]

After finishing ME3 with the Black Widow several years ago, I switched to Assault Rifles on the Infiltrator. No need for Headshots, just better flanking and power usage. I still carried the M-97 Viper for posterity sake, or for ranges that exceeded the accuracy of the Revenant.

 

That said, I found the Phalanx was more useful and tons lighter, leading me to become disenfranchised with sniper rifles as a whole. As a consequence for time dilation and ruthless accuracy, they had questionable fire rates and sustained damage. Of course, I never had the Valiant in Single Player (but the Valiant X in multiplayers).

 

Being a PC player, I set out to modify the common and uncommon Snipers into some semblance of usability. Modern snipers today have far larger clips and rates of fire, at the disadvantage of bullet drop. Of course, my mindset is very reminiscent of your average Call of Duty player, where the Sniper rifle had enough ammunition, damage and rate of fire to kill several more people than usually possible.

 

I modified the Viper to fire as fast as the Phalanx and hit about 50% harder. It became an EBR, capable of quickly downing anything out of cover. It could take full advantage of a single cloak cycle, was overwhelmingly powerful. I suppose this is what the Raptor should have been, and I may need to change the two around.

 

I modified the Mantis to have a 5 round clip, letting it shoot with impunity without the ridiculous 1 shot 1 reload cycle. It changed little, since most people reload cancel with it.

 

I changed the Incisor to actually fire as advertised - 3 rounds before the recoil settled. I'm surprised it wasn't like this before, but I think it had to do with the weird sound it now makes. It still shoots derps, so the damage needs to be upped.

 

All in all, I do wonder what the point of snipers are, in a game with an engagement distance that favors Shotguns and Assault rifles too much. If Battlefield is anything to go by, the new Frostbite ME4 will have these engagements, and then the Sniper rifle will really shine.

[q5tyhj]

Black Widow is the best. In every situation. 

 

/thread

 

There isn't really any argument to be had here. The thread should be, "what is the SECOND BEST sniper in SP"- at least there's a reasonable discussion to be had on that point.

[CaIIisto]

Prefer the Widow X myself...