550 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

idspisp0pd wrote...
I'm sure for the Paladin that it would be similar to the effect with a sniper rifle (i.e. completely negligible), since the Paladin also does lots of damage per shot. I would guess that it would only be noticeable in-game with something like an SMG or the Geth Pulse Rifle or something, where all those little damage reductions on each shot would really start to add up after you empty a clip or two. I'm sure that was the intended effect, since they wanted those kinds of weapons to be less effective against armor. I have no idea about the particle rifle since (a) I don't have the DLC and ( I gather that it uses a beam, rather than firing "bullets," so I have no idea how a per-shot damage reduction would work with it.

Hmmm.... I think I'll still use the penetration mods on the two weapons for the sake of cover penetration. Neither weapon really gains all that much from barrel extensions and I don't have AP ammo. Still, good to know the Concentration/Barrel Mod combo on my Valiant is still the optimal choice.

P.S. Props on getting the Doom reference! Glad I'm not the only person who remembers that game.

It has the distinction of being the third cheat I've ever used (after IDDQD and IDKFA )

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

Hmmm.... I think I'll still use the penetration mods on the two weapons for the sake of cover penetration. Neither weapon really gains all that much from barrel extensions and I don't have AP ammo. Still, good to know the Concentration/Barrel Mod combo on my Valiant is still the optimal choice.

I played significant amount of time with Valiant with AP mod and AP ammo modded to penetration, I'd say it works approximately same way as barrel mod. Maybe it's just me but I wasn't able to detect that much of a difference. I mean maybe barrel mod rifle chipped one block of enemy life/armor/shields bar more, but results are same, I still either needed second shot or not. It's like that old joke about tanks mass - whether it should be 50 tons or 60.

And regarding Particle rifle - did it actually penetrates anything? I tried to use it several times against thin cover (glass, those folding pop-up covers from ME2) - no effect.

[idspisp0pd]

Rudy Lis wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Hmmm.... I think I'll still use the penetration mods on the two weapons for the sake of cover penetration. Neither weapon really gains all that much from barrel extensions and I don't have AP ammo. Still, good to know the Concentration/Barrel Mod combo on my Valiant is still the optimal choice.

I played significant amount of time with Valiant with AP mod and AP ammo modded to penetration, I'd say it works approximately same way as barrel mod. Maybe it's just me but I wasn't able to detect that much of a difference. I mean maybe barrel mod rifle chipped one block of enemy life/armor/shields bar more, but results are same, I still either needed second shot or not. It's like that old joke about tanks mass - whether it should be 50 tons or 60.

And regarding Particle rifle - did it actually penetrates anything? I tried to use it several times against thin cover (glass, those folding pop-up covers from ME2) - no effect.

Yeah, I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in-game either, but there is enough for it to be visible on the health/armor bar. I did a test with the BW on the monastery level, since there's a place you can save right by a weapon bench, and immediately after which you get a couple of banshees and a bunch of cannibals.

I noticed it more with the cannibals, where I had about 15-20% extra health taken off for a body shot (very rough estimate just form eyeballing it) with the barrel mod vs. the piercing mod. (Side note: slapping Liara's warp ammo added almost exactly the same amount of extra damage as the barrel did.) Obviously, the Cannibals probably have no damage resistance, so that wasn't helping the piercing mod, but the barrel did noticeable damage. It was harder to notice on Banshees for a variety of reasons (it's hard to get good test conditions when your squad ignores your orders and starts shooting at them), but I think I saw a difference. Still, it's not like picking one of the other will make or break your strategy.

Modifié par idspisp0pd, 11 avril 2012 - 09:55 .

[Rudy Lis]

idspisp0pd wrote...

Yeah, I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in-game either, but there is enough for it to be visible on the health/armor bar. I did a test with the BW on the monastery level, since there's a place you can save right by a weapon bench, and immediately after which you get a couple of banshees and a bunch of cannibals.

Also Mars is good place to test, right after Bench. On +game mostly (otherwise arsenal will be highly limited), but still. Plus lack of armor sets allow to test raw weapon power. Speaking of which - it's just me or game somewhat adjust enemies lifebars according to Shepard level? It did that back in ME1, I really didn't noticed anything back in ME2, but here I got same impression as I had in ME1.
Also Geth Dreadnought is not that bad shooting gallery. Yes, no bench, but there are placed to change layout at least. That and Turian bomb were the places where I run most of my "tests on seashells". N7 missions could work too.

idspisp0pd wrote...

I noticed it more with the cannibals, where I had about 15-20% extra health taken off for a body shot (very rough estimate just form eyeballing it) with the barrel mod vs. the piercing mod. (Side note: slapping Liara's warp ammo added almost exactly the same amount of extra damage as the barrel did.) Obviously, the Cannibals probably have no damage resistance, so that wasn't helping the piercing mod, but the barrel did noticeable damage.

IMHO Incendiary ammo adds more damage on naked enemies such as cannibals, even if percentage stated in character menu is same (+21% IIRC). Not sure for cryo, though, I got impression it was on par with disruption ammo - a bit worse than AP.

idspisp0pd wrote...

It was harder to notice on Banshees for a variety of reasons (it's hard to get good test conditions when your squad ignores your orders and starts shooting at them), but I think I saw a difference. Still, it's not like picking one of the other will make or break your strategy.

Partners could be either killed in some way, or sent on upper level and dumbed via pea-shooters and manual-power usage. Annoying as hell, but at least it works. Sometimes.

IMHO Bioware should make shooting range on Citadel with mode allowing us to manually adjust targets' parameters to known enemies and reflecting game difficulty. Maybe not realistic, but hey, a lot of things makes zero sense in ME3.  At least that'd make tests easier.

[Big I]

Javelin. It does full damage shooting through cover, and it's scope outlines things behind cover you can shoot at. Stack it's cover penetration with AP ammo and an armor piercing mod and you can shoot anything, anytime.

[Rudy Lis]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Javelin. It does full damage shooting through cover, and it's scope outlines things behind cover you can shoot at. Stack it's cover penetration with AP ammo and an armor piercing mod and you can shoot anything, anytime.

Except Kai Leng.

[All-a-Mort]

Rudy Lis wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Javelin. It does full damage shooting through cover, and it's scope outlines things behind cover you can shoot at. Stack it's cover penetration with AP ammo and an armor piercing mod and you can shoot anything, anytime.

Except Kai Leng.

Yes well, you couldn't hit that chap if used the Cain at point blank range.

[Rudy Lis]

All-a-Mort wrote...

Yes well, you couldn't hit that chap if used the Cain at point blank range.

Even if we used three Blackholes at once.

[icemount]

Hmmm best SR.. I'd say Carnifex X
OK, really I went for Valiant (semi, dmg, low recoil) at first and switched to Black Widow in later stages.
I also found Raptor to be useful against swarms of enemies, especially with cryo ammo. Kinda weapon crowd control.

[Rudy Lis]

icemount wrote...

Hmmm best SR.. I'd say Carnifex X

Paladin taking the field!

[icemount]

Rudy Lis wrote...

icemount wrote...

Hmmm best SR.. I'd say Carnifex X

Paladin taking the field!

Ha, arguably
I prefer Carn, due to higher capacity and ROF. Small dmg increase in Paladin, was not worth these offsets.

[All-a-Mort]

icemount wrote...

Rudy Lis wrote...

icemount wrote...

Hmmm best SR.. I'd say Carnifex X

Paladin taking the field!

Ha, arguably
I prefer Carn, due to higher capacity and ROF. Small dmg increase in Paladin, was not worth these offsets.

Or the absurd cost

[Rudy Lis]

icemount wrote...

Ha, arguably
I prefer Carn, due to higher capacity and ROF. Small dmg increase in Paladin, was not worth these offsets.

After my Shep killed two guardians through their shields with one shot...
Not sure if someone died from heart attack, though.

All-a-Mort wrote...

Or the absurd cost

But the priiiice!

One thing we learned back in uniform days: eqiupment and life has no price.

[SaturnRing]

If the black widow and the widow are taken out of the conversation, the javelin ( or the mantis that i consider to be its cheaper version - worth every penny ) would be an obvious choice - the kind that a shooter within a sniper team would use ( long range engagements only ) the bolt action - sort of - at that point would be the only trade off; from a spotter perspective within that same team, the raptor would be the obvious choice as it allows for a smoother transition between long range and mid range engagements while maintaining a fairly easy target acquisition. 

Modifié par SaturnRing, 12 avril 2012 - 01:35 .

[All-a-Mort]

I was properly trying the BW last night on the Tuchanka missions against Cerberus and without the armour piercing mod I usually use. Felt that the recoil was too extreme, half the time when aiming for th head the recoil was such I couldn't even see where the shot impacted. And I dunno, but with Barrel extension and not AP mod, it didn't seem nearly as effective in taking out enemies. I actually ran of ammo despite landing shots for once. Thinking that Valiant is my SR of choice in the end.

[nocbl2]

I like the Raptor, but the Saber is better than any SR.

[zeypher]

icemount wrote...

Rudy Lis wrote...

icemount wrote...

Hmmm best SR.. I'd say Carnifex X

Paladin taking the field!

Ha, arguably
I prefer Carn, due to higher capacity and ROF. Small dmg increase in Paladin, was not worth these offsets.

You do realize paladin lvl 1 has more damage than carnifex lvl 10. So no it is not a small increase in damage

[JaegerBane]

All-a-Mort wrote...

I was properly trying the BW last night on the Tuchanka missions against Cerberus and without the armour piercing mod I usually use. Felt that the recoil was too extreme, half the time when aiming for th head the recoil was such I couldn't even see where the shot impacted. And I dunno, but with Barrel extension and not AP mod, it didn't seem nearly as effective in taking out enemies. I actually ran of ammo despite landing shots for once. Thinking that Valiant is my SR of choice in the end.

This was very much my experience. When I heard that the Widow had a semi-auto cousin I was like 'EPIC WTFPWNAGE OMGZ0RZ' but in reality, its recoil largely cancels out any advantage you get from it being semi-auto in the first place.

In comparison, the Valiant felt like a hybrid of the Viper and the Spectre HMWSR from ME1. Its just a much more practical piece of kit.

[JaegerBane]

zeypher wrote...

icemount wrote...

Rudy Lis wrote...

icemount wrote...

Hmmm best SR.. I'd say Carnifex X

Paladin taking the field!

Ha, arguably
I prefer Carn, due to higher capacity and ROF. Small dmg increase in Paladin, was not worth these offsets.

You do realize paladin lvl 1 has more damage than carnifex lvl 10. So no it is not a small increase in damage

The question is, is its RoF any faster. I was under the assumption that the Carnifex and Paladin share everything except damage per shot and clip capacity.

I do have to admit some scepticism for the scale of the Paladin's damage. I've seen the numbers of the Paladin and Carnifex's damage per shots, but they don't seem to translate into gameplay.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 12 avril 2012 - 04:21 .

[Serp86]

I love the Raptor alot of Bullets , fast fire , "OK" damage when you combine that with the bullet time in sniper mode it just makes SP easy and alot faster. Fast reload is also extremely nice to have.  And if for whatever reason enemies come close it can be used as a decent Assault Rifle.

Modifié par Serp86, 12 avril 2012 - 05:12 .

[Leon Zweihander]

JaegerBane wrote...

All-a-Mort wrote...

I was properly trying the BW last night on the Tuchanka missions against Cerberus and without the armour piercing mod I usually use. Felt that the recoil was too extreme, half the time when aiming for th head the recoil was such I couldn't even see where the shot impacted. And I dunno, but with Barrel extension and not AP mod, it didn't seem nearly as effective in taking out enemies. I actually ran of ammo despite landing shots for once. Thinking that Valiant is my SR of choice in the end.

This was very much my experience. When I heard that the Widow had a semi-auto cousin I was like 'EPIC WTFPWNAGE OMGZ0RZ' but in reality, its recoil largely cancels out any advantage you get from it being semi-auto in the first place.

In comparison, the Valiant felt like a hybrid of the Viper and the Spectre HMWSR from ME1. Its just a much more practical piece of kit.

     I might be using the BW differently, but in what situation is its recoil an issue?  It's not even what I'd consider semi-auto since it has a fire rate of 60 compared to Widow / Javelin's 70.  Four targets that I can recall using more than one shot (excepting the geth since they only have two missions at the most) include: Atlas, Banshee, Brute & Ravager.  All of them either move slowly or are large enough where moving the reticle for the 2nd/3rd shot is not an issue, all this while holding the fire button. 

[idspisp0pd]

Leon Zweihander wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

All-a-Mort wrote...

I was properly trying the BW last night on the Tuchanka missions against Cerberus and without the armour piercing mod I usually use. Felt that the recoil was too extreme, half the time when aiming for th head the recoil was such I couldn't even see where the shot impacted. And I dunno, but with Barrel extension and not AP mod, it didn't seem nearly as effective in taking out enemies. I actually ran of ammo despite landing shots for once. Thinking that Valiant is my SR of choice in the end.

This was very much my experience. When I heard that the Widow had a semi-auto cousin I was like 'EPIC WTFPWNAGE OMGZ0RZ' but in reality, its recoil largely cancels out any advantage you get from it being semi-auto in the first place.

In comparison, the Valiant felt like a hybrid of the Viper and the Spectre HMWSR from ME1. Its just a much more practical piece of kit.

     I might be using the BW differently, but in what situation is its recoil an issue?  It's not even what I'd consider semi-auto since it has a fire rate of 60 compared to Widow / Javelin's 70.  Four targets that I can recall using more than one shot (excepting the geth since they only have two missions at the most) include: Atlas, Banshee, Brute & Ravager.  All of them either move slowly or are large enough where moving the reticle for the 2nd/3rd shot is not an issue, all this while holding the fire button. 

I think the issue they are describing is with lining up headshots for regular enemies, i.e. you can't pull off three headshots in quick succession without re-aiming after each one. This has never bothered me in the least, since lining up a new shot is still way faster than reloading, but I see what they are saying.

[JaegerBane]

Leon Zweihander wrote...
     I might be using the BW differently, but in what situation is its recoil an issue?  It's not even what I'd consider semi-auto since it has a fire rate of 60 compared to Widow / Javelin's 70.  Four targets that I can recall using more than one shot (excepting the geth since they only have two missions at the most) include: Atlas, Banshee, Brute & Ravager.  All of them either move slowly or are large enough where moving the reticle for the 2nd/3rd shot is not an issue, all this while holding the fire button. 

The recoil becomes an issue in virtually any situation where you need more than a single shot to kill a target, and since the way the defence mechanic in this game works effectively precludes isolated OSOKs on anything above a basic trooper of each enemy group (i.e. anything without a defence), I'd say that covers a *lot* of enemies. Once you're having to make more than a single shot, you're absolutely battering your DPS rate as it takes a while to reset from recoil, and any more than three shots and you might as well be using a totally different weapon, as the reload time is very high.

I'm not really sure what significance you think is attached to those RoF values you've mentioned - all three rifles have the maximum reload time and therefore the specifc rates of fire stats for the Widow and Javelin are largely irrelevant to the point at hand, as in practice they'll be nowhere near the BW's firing rate.

Don't get me wrong, the choice between the Valiant and the Black Widow is an ongoing experiment for me and I need to do a bit more work on figuring out which mods would work best with each, but I think I can safely say that the BW's recoil is the largest single issue I have that is preventing it from becoming my go-to sniper rifle.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 12 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[Leon Zweihander]

JaegerBane wrote...

Leon Zweihander wrote...
     I might be using the BW differently, but in what situation is its recoil an issue?  It's not even what I'd consider semi-auto since it has a fire rate of 60 compared to Widow / Javelin's 70.  Four targets that I can recall using more than one shot (excepting the geth since they only have two missions at the most) include: Atlas, Banshee, Brute & Ravager.  All of them either move slowly or are large enough where moving the reticle for the 2nd/3rd shot is not an issue, all this while holding the fire button. 

The recoil becomes an issue in virtually any situation where you need more than a single shot to kill a target, and since the way the defence mechanic in this game works effectively precludes isolated OSOKs on anything above a basic trooper of each enemy group (i.e. anything without a defence), I'd say that covers a *lot* of enemies. Once you're having to make more than a single shot, you're absolutely battering your DPS rate as it takes a while to reset from recoil, and any more than three shots and you might as well be using a totally different weapon, as the reload time is very high.

I'm not really sure what significance you think is attached to those RoF values you've mentioned - all three rifles have the maximum reload time and therefore the specifc rates of fire stats for the Widow and Javelin are largely irrelevant to the point at hand, as in practice they'll be nowhere near the BW's firing rate.

     This applies to Infiltrator for the most part, but Energy Drain and bonus power on Tactical Cloak removes all of those situations minus the four.  I'm mentioning the rate of fire since you said recoil was an issue, which it's not when you take into account its low rate of fire, combined with the Infiltrator and concentration mod's dilation time.  Low-mid enemies' defense can be removed with ED, then killed with a bodyshot, and again the high level enemies are slow as it is.

[Candidate 88766]

Rather predictably, the Black Widow is my favourite - you can take out even the toughest enemies quickly, but can also take out a chunk of a crowd of enemies quickly as well.

I also quite like the Javelin - with the right upgrades you can pretty much shoot through walls, and it makes a great sound.

Apart from them, I rather like the Mantis. High damage - higher than the Black Widow with the right upgrades - but weighing barely anything. With an infiltrator you can carry a Mantis and an SMG and still have a 200% cooldown bonus.