550 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Leon Zweihander wrote...
     This applies to Infiltrator for the most part, but Energy Drain and bonus power on Tactical Cloak removes all of those situations minus the four.  I'm mentioning the rate of fire since you said recoil was an issue, which it's not when you take into account its low rate of fire, combined with the Infiltrator and concentration mod's dilation time.  Low-mid enemies' defense can be removed with ED, then killed with a bodyshot, and again the high level enemies are slow as it is.

Well, realistically, there are a 1001 different combinations of powers, bonus powers, classes and whatnot to use alongside the BW itself to make things easier and tilt stuff in your favour, but that isn't really the question at hand. I'm really just speaking about the rifle itself.... that is the point behind the thread, after all. We're comparing rifle vs rifle, not rifle vs rifle plus the optimum selection of mods/class/powers.

What I need to look at is exactly how much damage the BW does per shot vs how much the Valiant does. If its any less than double then I'll likely stick with the Valiant as getting two shots on a single head using the Valiant is a piece of cake, even while under fire.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 12 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

What I need to look at is exactly how much damage the BW does per shot vs how much the Valiant does. If its any less than double then I'll likely stick with the Valiant as getting two shots on a single head using the Valiant is a piece of cake, even while under fire.

IIRC, less than double (about 40%). In vanilla state (no mods, no upgrades) BW one and only real advantage is built-in piercing.
Valiant easily beats it via RoF, no muzzle climb and quick reload.

[XTR3M3]

Depends on which mission. I use the Viper for missions with lots of low level baddies like husks and the BW for missions with harder enemies. The Viper with it's quick reload and 6 shot clip makes short work of low level baddies especially if you have the slow down mod and the headshot bonus from Infiltrator and armor combos....pretty much the same reason for the BW but for high HP, slower moving enemy levels.

I have them all including the ones released in the free MP DLC. It was easy to add them via Gibbed's SGE. I didn't like the delay on the harpoon thrower. The valiant kinda shoots...off for me so I don't use that one either.

[Leon Zweihander]

I've finally tested the Valiant on Thessia with Infiltrator / Insanity. It may have the advantage in rof and low recoil over BW, but BW's higher damage tops it imo. Headshots are needed to kill low-mids, where a bodyshot from BW does the job, negating its higher rate of fire/reload. Against high-level targets they're more or less the same. Bottom line it's more of a preference, damage from BW vs. faster power recharge for Valiant.

Modifié par Leon Zweihander, 13 avril 2012 - 12:01 .

[All-a-Mort]

Headshots with BW is fine, but the recoil makes it too slow to line them up. For enemies still protected at all, getting that second shot out quick matters, and BW is just too slow compared to Valiant. I can easily nail consecutive headshots with valiant and general secondary target acquisition is faster. BW may kill in one body shot sometimes, but when I have to deal with clustered enemies I want to be able to shoot quickly, even if it takes more shots to kill one guy. With BW, after the first shot, pause, second shot, pause, I've lost sight of some enemies.
That said, I liked BW against Reaper forces, as they move more slowly, but I think on any mission involving Cerberus, then Valiant will get the nod. I guess it is whatever tool suits the job, as per a quote from Deniro in Ronin about his 'favourite' gun.

I tried the Viper this evening on the N7 Cerberus Abductions side mission...dreadful really. Nowhere near powerful enough for the horrible rate of fire and ammo.

Modifié par All-a-Mort, 13 avril 2012 - 12:20 .

[idspisp0pd]

I'm surprised that so many people use two shots to take down shielded enemies. I always use overload or energy drain to strip shields first and then pop them in the head while they're staggered, so the issue of recoil never even occurred to me. Then again, I didn't buy the CE, so I've never had to choose between the BW and the Valiant.

[Leon Zweihander]

idspisp0pd wrote...

I'm surprised that so many people use two shots to take down shielded enemies. I always use overload or energy drain to strip shields first and then pop them in the head while they're staggered, so the issue of recoil never even occurred to me. Then again, I didn't buy the CE, so I've never had to choose between the BW and the Valiant.

     With the new defense gate mechanic for ME3, defense stripping is almost mandatory.  If you don't have an ability to remove shields or barriers pick one that does it otherwise you're seriously gimping your sniper build. I was doubtful of it at first but having Energy Drain gave me the 1 shot 1 kill playstyle I had from ME2 all over again. 

Modifié par Leon Zweihander, 13 avril 2012 - 01:29 .

[Sidney]

Leaving out the Widow and BW then it is just the good old Mantis. Hits like a brick. If I am taking the time to snipe something I want it dead in one shot.

[Delta_V2]

Leon Zweihander wrote...

     With the new defense gate mechanic for ME3, defense stripping is almost mandatory.  If you don't have an ability to remove shields or barriers pick one that does it otherwise you're seriously gimping your sniper build. I was doubtful of it at first but having Energy Drain gave me the 1 shot 1 kill playstyle I had from ME2 all over again. 

Yeah, Energy Drain is definitely one of the best bonus powers. 

Disruptor ammo does give you a little leeway with shields/barriers though (since its damage is applied first).  If an enemy is down to a few bars of shields, it can be enough to get around the shieldgate.

[JaegerBane]

Leon Zweihander wrote...

idspisp0pd wrote...

I'm surprised that so many people use two shots to take down shielded enemies. I always use overload or energy drain to strip shields first and then pop them in the head while they're staggered, so the issue of recoil never even occurred to me. Then again, I didn't buy the CE, so I've never had to choose between the BW and the Valiant.

     With the new defense gate mechanic for ME3, defense stripping is almost mandatory.  If you don't have an ability to remove shields or barriers pick one that does it otherwise you're seriously gimping your sniper build. I was doubtful of it at first but having Energy Drain gave me the 1 shot 1 kill playstyle I had from ME2 all over again. 

You're thinking in circles here, Leon. Defence stripping is only mandatory with the single-shot sniper rifles, and the BW. Defences don't really last long enough for them to be an issue when you're repeatedly getting headshots. Its hardly an issue for all sniper rifles.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

You're thinking in circles here, Leon. Defence stripping is only mandatory with the single-shot sniper rifles, and the BW. Defences don't really last long enough for them to be an issue when you're repeatedly getting headshots. Its hardly an issue for all sniper rifles.

Plus there team-mates (unless they are dead, of course), who can either strip defense on their own, or chip enemy a bit before your shot, allowing you to finish it, or vice versa. In my playthroughs I worked fine without ED (not to be confused with EDI).
Just sayin.

[Leon Zweihander]

It's more efficient using ED to strip off a defense than wasting a bullet for a 2nd shot (and making you reload more frequently), whether it's Valiant or Black Widow. With 2 shots you're waiting around a second whereas power + head or bodyshot guarantees a fast kill.

Modifié par Leon Zweihander, 13 avril 2012 - 02:22 .

[JaegerBane]

All-a-Mort wrote...

Headshots with BW is fine, but the recoil makes it too slow to line them up. For enemies still protected at all, getting that second shot out quick matters, and BW is just too slow compared to Valiant. I can easily nail consecutive headshots with valiant and general secondary target acquisition is faster. BW may kill in one body shot sometimes, but when I have to deal with clustered enemies I want to be able to shoot quickly, even if it takes more shots to kill one guy. With BW, after the first shot, pause, second shot, pause, I've lost sight of some enemies.
That said, I liked BW against Reaper forces, as they move more slowly, but I think on any mission involving Cerberus, then Valiant will get the nod. I guess it is whatever tool suits the job, as per a quote from Deniro in Ronin about his 'favourite' gun.

Thats an interesting point about Reaper forces - the majority of my tests have been conducted against Cerberus. Though I have to admit that, if anything, Reapers always seemed faster than Cerberus (particularly the Brutes and Husks).

But yeah, you're absolutely right about clustered enemies. I think this has got as much to do with reload time as it has to do with recoil, though - Valiant reloads don't last long enough for enemies to make much movement before you're ready to fire again.

I tried the Viper this evening on the N7 Cerberus Abductions side mission...dreadful really. Nowhere near powerful enough for the horrible rate of fire and ammo.

Quite. The poor Viper has had quite a spectacular fall from grace since ME2 - its recoil isn't horrendous but when you consider its doing, what, 0.75 times the damage of Paladin round? Yeah, one of the worst sniper rifles this time round.

I think I would have been a lot more annoyed had the Valiant not been around - as it is, I'm of the opinion of 'meh'. :happy:

[JaegerBane]

Leon Zweihander wrote...

It's more efficient using ED to strip off a defense than wasting a bullet for a 2nd shot (and making you reload more frequently), whether it's Valiant or Black Widow. With 2 shots you're waiting around a second whereas power + head or bodyshot guarantees a fast kill.

What is efficient depends largely on the situation you find your own character in, there isn't any hard and fast rule stating that one must take x bonus power and use like y.

Besides, trying to bring powers into the argument doesn't work in the BW's favour - comparing power + valiant vs power + BW is pointless as an efficiency argument as your powers won't recharge as fast using the BW, so again, you're back into the situation of having to wait longer to do the same thing.

[therussianviking]

Javelin. I can always see enemies, can penetrate cover, and the slight firing delay helps me compensate better for moving or twitchy enemies.

[All-a-Mort]

I favour BW against Reapers mostly because so many of them are immune to headshots anyway, so the heavier damage per shot of BW is useful there when I have to just hit body shots. In those circumstances recoil isn't such a factor as I don't need so much accuracy (and don't really get any reward if I did snap of headshots). Only on Cerberus do headshots become more efficient and the less recoil or the valiant more important as I can make use of the ability to fire rapid accurate shots and thin out the lower ranked mooks quickly whilst I use ED and squadmates on the Guardians, Phantoms, Centurions etc.

I should probably point out I am slumming it on a console for ME3 (started on console, so figured I'd finish on it. I would buy the PC version but then I'd not have the 'extras'). As such, pin-point accuracy is not so easy to get. Granted the BW, Javelin and Widow can kill in a centre mass shot, but even allowing for headshot difficulty in aiming, Valiant still adds up to more DPS for me and better control of the battlefield. It is sometimes harder to land a BW headshot in ME3 at about 50 yards than it is to land a headshot in Arma 2 (or OA) from 700 yards facturing in realistic ballistics and windage using a mouse.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

Thats an interesting point about Reaper forces - the majority of my tests have been conducted against Cerberus. Though I have to admit that, if anything, Reapers always seemed faster than Cerberus (particularly the Brutes and Husks).

To be honest I generally prefer not to use SR on melee-only opponents, unless they are far enough or there is very good opportunity (read "lot of place to maneuver"). Of course if someone is worth shooting it is brute.

JaegerBane wrote...

Quite. The poor Viper has had quite a spectacular fall from grace since ME2 - its recoil isn't horrendous but when you consider its doing, what, 0.75 times the damage of Paladin round? Yeah, one of the worst sniper rifles this time round.

If in ME2 Viper was somewhat AR-15 > little muzzle flip, decent power, RoF and accuracy, now it is moved somewhat to SVD place. But if SVD is quite powerful (at least 7.62x54R  vs .223/5.56x45), Viper's power looks odd in comparison with Valiant - it's faster, yet more powerful. And small magazine seems more than worthy trade-off for me.

JaegerBane wrote...

I think I would have been a lot more annoyed had the Valiant not been around - as it is, I'm of the opinion of 'meh'. :happy:

Meh too.

JaegerBane wrote...

Besides, trying to bring powers into the argument doesn't work in the BW's favour - comparing power + valiant vs power + BW is pointless as an efficiency argument as your powers won't recharge as fast using the BW, so again, you're back into the situation of having to wait longer to do the same thing.

I tested that issue on Tuchanka cannon mission and fuel depot/reactor (Captain Reiley:D) mission. With Valiant and minimal usage of powers (teammates' powers, my soldier has nothing other than ammo) it was easier to keep enemies farther away from team than with BW. In Depot mission barriers adds some odds, but still.

Of course it is not exact copy - different layout and "marching order", but still. For me BW is a bit more practical AMR rifle, but I'd gladly payed it's price for doubling Valiant ammo supply.
Just sayin.

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
I tested that issue on Tuchanka cannon mission and fuel depot/reactor (Captain Reiley:D) mission. With Valiant and minimal usage of powers (teammates' powers, my soldier has nothing other than ammo) it was easier to keep enemies farther away from team than with BW. In Depot mission barriers adds some odds, but still.

Of course it is not exact copy - different layout and "marching order", but still. For me BW is a bit more practical AMR rifle, but I'd gladly payed it's price for doubling Valiant ammo supply.
Just sayin.

That actually doesn't surprise me at all, albeit for reasons totally unrelated to recoil and power. Hitting an opponent with an SR round (even a Viper round) appears to have a high chance of staggering or interrupting whatever they're doing - so even if it doesn't kill them, it likely will stop them charging or hurling a grenade.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

That actually doesn't surprise me at all, albeit for reasons totally unrelated to recoil and power. Hitting an opponent with an SR round (even a Viper round) appears to have a high chance of staggering or interrupting whatever they're doing - so even if it doesn't kill them, it likely will stop them charging or hurling a grenade.

If someone has access to ingame resources and some free time maybe he could lend a hand a unburrow some tech-specs from ingame files.
But generally I agree, even without ammo powers or my fav AP, there is quite high chance to stagger (if not kill) opponent. And, with Valiant, better chances to finish it off outright. Viper could be a bit slow for this. Not sure for Raptor or Incirsor, though. Friend of mine praises Indra, but he is IA fan.
However, in my tests I was able to do OSOK on most weaker enemies (not always, though and I don't know what is it - me, being lame, or they have such hit-box model or just differential armor), only obvious targets (Marauders, Centurions, Engineers) required something more than one headshot.

[All-a-Mort]

Raptor I found is just too weak to be used as a sniper weapon. Took it on the Tuchanka bomb mission and ditched it it quick, just took way too many shots to down even the basic Cerb troopers. Compared to other weapons in the class it was like using .22. Couldn't really see the use as a Sniper class weapon. Didn't even seem as effective when scoring headshots than with a Scoped Mattock.

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
If someone has access to ingame resources
and some free time maybe he could lend a hand a unburrow some tech-specs
from ingame files.
But generally I agree, even without ammo powers
or my fav AP, there is quite high chance to stagger (if not
kill) opponent. And, with Valiant, better chances to finish it off
outright. Viper could be a bit slow for this. Not sure for Raptor or
Incirsor, though. Friend of mine praises Indra, but he is IA fan.
However,
in my tests I was able to do OSOK on most weaker enemies (not always,
though and I don't know what is it - me, being lame, or they have such
hit-box model or just differential armor), only obvious targets
(Marauders, Centurions, Engineers) required something more than one
headshot.

Precisely. I find the Valiant to be almost the opposite to how I orginally felt the weapon handled - originally I thought it was a poor hybrid that lacked the firing rate and capacity of the semi-auto rifles but lacked the hitting power of the single-shots, being stuck in the middle and unable to do everything well.

After Athenau mentioned some stats I went back in and tested it to death, and found it was, far from being an unhappy medium, actually accurate and fast enough to gain stagger benefits like the semi-autos but hit hard enough to one-shot mooks under certain circumstances and mods. All with a generous ammo capacity and zero recoil. It is truly worthy of its N7 logo (unlike some other weapons...)

All-a-Mort wrote...

Raptor I found is just too weak to be used as a sniper weapon. Took it on the Tuchanka bomb mission and ditched it it quick, just took way too many shots to down even the basic Cerb troopers. Compared to other weapons in the class it was like using .22. Couldn't really see the use as a Sniper class weapon. Didn't even seem as effective when scoring headshots than with a Scoped Mattock.

I think its safe to say that the Raptor is only going to be chosen by players who aren't actually bothered about sniping and instead prefer an ME2 Mattock with an added scope. It isn't a sniper rifle at all.

[Rudy Lis]

All-a-Mort wrote...

Compared to other weapons in the class it was like using .22.

In New Vegas .22 quite effective. I even earned achievement for taking Deathclaw with it.

JaegerBane wrote...

Precisely. I find the Valiant to be almost the opposite to how I orginally felt the weapon handled - originally I thought it was a poor hybrid that lacked the firing rate and capacity of the semi-auto rifles but lacked the hitting power of the single-shots, being stuck in the middle and unable to do everything well.

In my first playthrough I chose Viper and was pretty happy until first fight (right there, on airfield). Slowed RoF, not to mention mag cap and damage, almost killed that rifle for me in ME3.
I never liked Mantis and other 1-shot rifles, I like to trace surround through scope, but game seems to ignore what I want and force reload. Power is good, though, but Valiant valiantly conquered his place in my arsenal. It was luv at first sight mag.

JaegerBane wrote...

After Athenau mentioned some stats I went back in and tested it to death, and found it was, far from being an unhappy medium, actually accurate and fast enough to gain stagger benefits like the semi-autos but hit hard enough to one-shot mooks under certain circumstances and mods. All with a generous ammo capacity and zero recoil. It is truly worthy of its N7 logo (unlike some other weapons...)

Yeah, I was so disappointed with Eagle (figures) and especially Valkyrie, so I didn't even tested Valiant on Mars, kept Mantis. After Menae I replayed Mars and understood how wrong I was.
IMHO Valiant only problem is some bug (if it is) with total carried ammo - it always 30 until you apply Ammo power (why they not kept like in ME2, btw?) or pick-up first thermal clip, if you have some armor with extra pouches (so to speak) or install spare ammo mod for rifle itself. And upgrading Valiant doesn't seem to offer more ammo (if it is supposed to).

JaegerBane wrote...

I think its safe to say that the Raptor is only going to be chosen by players who aren't actually bothered about sniping and instead prefer an ME2 Mattock with an added scope. It isn't a sniper rifle at all.

ME2 Mattock had not only accuracy, but punch. What Raptor has to offer? Cerberus emblem?

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 13 avril 2012 - 04:51 .

[OriginalTibs]

That Salarian Eezo-paintball pistol with a scope and clip upgrade may well be my favorite in single player.

It is my most wished-for sidearm in multiplayer.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 13 avril 2012 - 05:14 .

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
Yeah, I was so disappointed with Eagle (figures) and especially Valkyrie, so I didn't even tested Valiant on Mars, kept Mantis. After Menae I replayed Mars and understood how wrong I was.
IMHO Valiant only problem is some bug (if it is) with total carried ammo - it always 30 until you apply Ammo power (why they not kept like in ME2, btw?) or pick-up first thermal clip, if you have some armor with extra pouches (so to speak) or install spare ammo mod for rifle itself. And upgrading Valiant doesn't seem to offer more ammo (if it is supposed to).

Hard to say. I've never really felt 30 rounds to be all that restrictive on a weapon like the Valiant, partially because it recovers ammo at a very high rate for a sniper rifle (~7 rounds a clip pickup?), but I do have to admit it seems a little odd that weapon upgrades do not offer an increase in ammo. The issues with armour and mod ammo boosts have not really been an issue I've investigated, as the best mods for the Valiant seem to be Concentration and Extended Barrel mods and I wear cooldown-reduction armour.

I haven't actually upgraded Warp Ammo enough to see what the ammo boost actually does, but to be fair, I was more likely going to go for the headshot upgrade. Apparently the N7 Defender armour boosts it?

ME2 Mattock had not only accuracy, but punch. What Raptor has to offer? Cerberus emblem?

Provided the Raptor is used like an ME2 Mattock and you install the right mods, its actually a very effective weapon, thanks to its large ammo supply. The biggest issue in my eyes is the fact that it needs to be used nothing like a sniper rifle to make it work, even a semi-auto one, which defeats the object of taking a sniper rifle IMO.

That said, I personally think the sniper rifle mods are better than any other weapon class mods.