550 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

DJCS wrote...

^ Using the Javelin to shoot through cover/walls/other enemies is not really overkill due to the reduced damage.

True, but its not like its rocket science to get a shot at someone hiding behind a wall. Half the time they're not even in cover enough for it to be worth anything in the first place.

[mad_yojik]

DJCS wrote...

^ Using the Javelin to shoot through cover/walls/other enemies is not really overkill due to the reduced damage.

Well it can through the wall, from the cloak oneshot anything smaller on Hardcore (and if you aim for the head it instapops centurions without one), I'd say its overkil nonetheless.  Javelin is also nice againist Phantoms, especially w/concentration mod. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie] . Sucks againist reapers tho (their "meat" are a way too numerous and rarely "duck and cover"), the BW/Raptor rules here. Dumped Javelin mainly because of ammo/weight issues...

[Wulfram]

I think the Javelin is really cool, so I use it. At least, on hardcore.

[Saodade]

I'm faithfull to the Mantis because it is  light,  and do big damages, even if  it is slow. But the spectre one (who look like a roquet launcher ) is a good one too. Just too heavy for a  ingeneer shepard.

Modifié par Saodade, 18 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

mad_yojik wrote...

DJCS wrote...

^ Using the Javelin to shoot through cover/walls/other enemies is not really overkill due to the reduced damage.

Well it can through the wall, from the cloak oneshot anything smaller on Hardcore (and if you aim for the head it instapops centurions without one), I'd say its overkil nonetheless.  Javelin is also nice againist Phantoms, especially w/concentration mod. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie] . Sucks againist reapers tho (their "meat" are a way too numerous and rarely "duck and cover"), the BW/Raptor rules here. Dumped Javelin mainly because of ammo/weight issues...

The Javelin and Black Widow weigh the same, and the Javelin can have 37 rounds with the spare thermal clip mod V. Its Surperior cover piercing abilities and thermal vision make it so you can use your mods to vastly improve it, while the Black Widow needs mods just to match its abilities.

Modifié par DJCS, 18 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Leon Zweihander]

While Javelin is useful for killing targets in cover, BW outpaces Javelin in terms of burst damage. Three back to back kills with bodyshots is very hard to outdamage, which is why I prefer it to the other rifles. Smoke and cover are for the most part situational.

[JaegerBane]

DJCS wrote...

mad_yojik wrote...

DJCS wrote...

^ Using the Javelin to shoot through cover/walls/other enemies is not really overkill due to the reduced damage.

Well it can through the wall, from the cloak oneshot anything smaller on Hardcore (and if you aim for the head it instapops centurions without one), I'd say its overkil nonetheless.  Javelin is also nice againist Phantoms, especially w/concentration mod. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie] . Sucks againist reapers tho (their "meat" are a way too numerous and rarely "duck and cover"), the BW/Raptor rules here. Dumped Javelin mainly because of ammo/weight issues...

The Javelin and Black Widow weigh the same, and the Javelin can have 37 rounds with the spare thermal clip mod V. Its Surperior cover piercing abilities and thermal vision make it so you can use your mods to vastly improve it, while the Black Widow needs mods just to match its abilities.

And yet you can kill three times the targets in the same amount of time using the BW by virtue of the fact that the Javelin takes a while to shoot, a while to reload, and has to do both every time you attack a targets. No matter how you slice it, the Javelin's advantages over the BW are weighted towards situational use and do not contribute a great deal to actually knocking targets down.

The thermal vision is nice but lets not pretend that its a vital aspect of sniping.

You say the Black Widow needs mods to match the Javelin's strengths - while this is literally true, this is hardly a point against the Black Widow, since there are no mods available that allow the Javelin to match the BW's strengths. You're stuck with the charge up and the single-shot clip, which will always cap the number of targets you can drop well below what the BW is capable of.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 18 avril 2012 - 08:10 .

[thegamefreek78648]

Eragondragonrider wrote...

N7 Valiant with time-slow and +weapon dmg also have armor rounds.

Yes.

[capn233]

This thread is still on-going?

[Dark Penitant]

Evidently.

[headcr4b]

If you aren't counting the Widow/Black Widow, I'm going to have to say its between the Javelin and the Valiant. Javelin wins by a hair. I love seeing through walls.

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

JaegerBane wrote...

DJCS wrote...

mad_yojik wrote...

DJCS wrote...

^ Using the Javelin to shoot through cover/walls/other enemies is not really overkill due to the reduced damage.

Well it can through the wall, from the cloak oneshot anything smaller on Hardcore (and if you aim for the head it instapops centurions without one), I'd say its overkil nonetheless.  Javelin is also nice againist Phantoms, especially w/concentration mod. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie] . Sucks againist reapers tho (their "meat" are a way too numerous and rarely "duck and cover"), the BW/Raptor rules here. Dumped Javelin mainly because of ammo/weight issues...

The Javelin and Black Widow weigh the same, and the Javelin can have 37 rounds with the spare thermal clip mod V. Its Surperior cover piercing abilities and thermal vision make it so you can use your mods to vastly improve it, while the Black Widow needs mods just to match its abilities.

And yet you can kill three times the targets in the same amount of time using the BW by virtue of the fact that the Javelin takes a while to shoot, a while to reload, and has to do both every time you attack a targets. No matter how you slice it, the Javelin's advantages over the BW are weighted towards situational use and do not contribute a great deal to actually knocking targets down.

The thermal vision is nice but lets not pretend that its a vital aspect of sniping.

You say the Black Widow needs mods to match the Javelin's strengths - while this is literally true, this is hardly a point against the Black Widow, since there are no mods available that allow the Javelin to match the BW's strengths. You're stuck with the charge up and the single-shot clip, which will always cap the number of targets you can drop well below what the BW is capable of.

But the Javelin will take out most targets with one shot, while the Black Widow needs at least 2 against any enemy with defences. Not only that, but it can blast through cover and walls to take out targets that you wouldn't even be able to hit yet with the Black Widow. That saves way more tim in the long run.

[idspisp0pd]

DJCS wrote...

But the Javelin will take out most targets with one shot, while the Black Widow needs at least 2 against any enemy with defences. Not only that, but it can blast through cover and walls to take out targets that you wouldn't even be able to hit yet with the Black Widow. That saves way more tim in the long run.

Every sniper needs at least two shots against enemies with defenses, at least if you're playing on insanity (which I'd guess the vast majority of people on this forum are). Per-shot damage is largely irrelevant with sheild gating at 100%. And both weapons have cover penetration without a mod, I'm not sure why you think the Javelin has some huge advantage there.

All of this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, this discussion isn't really adding anything new.

Modifié par idspisp0pd, 18 avril 2012 - 11:30 .

[Unit-Alpha]

Black Widow, no contest.

Big clip size, plenty of spare ammo, powerful, and balanced enough to use as the main weapon on a Soldier playthrough.

If you don't want to include that, Raptor, probably.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 18 avril 2012 - 11:43 .

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

idspisp0pd wrote...

DJCS wrote...

But the Javelin will take out most targets with one shot, while the Black Widow needs at least 2 against any enemy with defences. Not only that, but it can blast through cover and walls to take out targets that you wouldn't even be able to hit yet with the Black Widow. That saves way more tim in the long run.

Every sniper needs at least two shots against enemies with defenses, at least if you're playing on insanity (which I'd guess the vast majority of people on this forum are). Per-shot damage is largely irrelevant with sheild gating at 100%. And both weapons have cover penetration without a mod, I'm not sure why you think the Javelin has some huge advantage there.

All of this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, this discussion isn't really adding anything new.

Thats because it does. If you don't believe me theres vidoes on youtube that compare the piercing abilities of the Javelin and the Widow at the the same level. The Javelin was able to take out half an enemy's health, while the Widow couldn't even pierce the cover.

Modifié par DJCS, 18 avril 2012 - 11:55 .

[Fortack]

DJCS wrote...

Thats because it does. If you don't believe me theres vidoes on youtube that compare the piercing abilities of the Javelin and the Widow at the the same level. The Javelin was able to take out half an enemy's health, while the Widow couldn't even pierce the cover.

Sure, but this doesn't matter much. Enemies who are behind cover do not shoot Shep & friends so why "waste" shots when there are other enemies around that are dangerous presently and who also are "easy" targets (and take full damage)?

Playing SP means you should have options to get enemies out of cover before taking the shot anyway. Piercing ability is nice, but effectively (for gameplay) it has little added value beyond killing guardians through their shields - which is something the (black) widow can do without mods (and the BW can kill 3 guardians - they travel in packs - in one cycle).

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

Fortack wrote...

DJCS wrote...

Thats because it does. If you don't believe me theres vidoes on youtube that compare the piercing abilities of the Javelin and the Widow at the the same level. The Javelin was able to take out half an enemy's health, while the Widow couldn't even pierce the cover.

Sure, but this doesn't matter much. Enemies who are behind cover do not shoot Shep & friends so why "waste" shots when there are other enemies around that are dangerous presently and who also are "easy" targets (and take full damage)?

Playing SP means you should have options to get enemies out of cover before taking the shot anyway. Piercing ability is nice, but effectively (for gameplay) it has little added value beyond killing guardians through their shields - which is something the (black) widow can do without mods (and the BW can kill 3 guardians - they travel in packs - in one cycle).

Because they're not shooting at you. 
Take em down nice and easy before they become a threat. Besides, any weapon can take out an enemy out of cover.

[capn233]

If you think cover penetration (which is different than armor piercing in this game) is useless, then you aren't being imaginative enough.

One of the more interesting uses I have for this ability is shooting enemies through Shepard's cover (like if you are standing behind relatively tall cover). Alternatively, you can kill or damage multiple enemies per shot, which is always nice.

As for the difference in penetration, Javelin is supposed to have a passive 100cm of cover penetration and Black Widow is supposed to have 60cm, with the Widow somewhere around 75cm if I remember correctly. In game there aren't many places that you can actually penetrate with 100cm that you can't with 60cm (because most cover is relatively thin, or it is exceedingly thick). However, if you stack on an extra 135cm from SR Piercing, then you do have a few more possibilities.

None of those rifles are supposed to have innate Armor Piercing (negating armor's damage reduction) although given how much damage they each do it isn't relevant.

And regarding one shotting enemies, there basically is not an enemy on Insanity that can be one-shotted with a Javelin that cannot be one-shotted with the Black Widow. However, Black Widow has much greater rate of sustained fire and low tier or high tier enemy kills due to the higher number of shots per clip.

I like the Javelin because it has "character," but for pure usefulness Black Widow is superior 99.9% of the time.

Modifié par capn233, 19 avril 2012 - 01:33 .

[CountSnackula]

Not sure about best.
But I always find myself returning to the Mantis. The weight, the damage, and the sound effect make it awesome. Just has too long of a reload animation.
Not sure why the Javelin has that delay on it, but I find it more trouble than it's worth because of that.
Widow's my favorite, but the weight (unless in NG+) sends me back to the Mantis.
Black Widow...eh. I don't enjoy feeling like I'm carrying a supergun.

[ShadowSoldier89]

I can't believe how many people actually use concentrator mods...

BW all the way, everything just drops dead, not to mention constant double kills on weak enemies

[JaegerBane]

capn233 wrote...

If you think cover penetration (which is different than armor piercing in this game) is useless, then you aren't being imaginative enough.

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting its useless, we just don't understand why DJCS thinks that it introduces some sort of revolution in sniping and is worth cutting your killing rate in half 99% of the time.

The Javelin is saddled with some painful disadvantages that mean that even if you're one-shotting targets you'll still struggle to keep up with the BW - the issue is that DJCS seems to think that being able to hit an enemy behind cover makes up for the fact that you can kill multiple enemies in the same amount of time.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 19 avril 2012 - 04:26 .

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

CountSnackula wrote...

Not sure about best.
But I always find myself returning to the Mantis. The weight, the damage, and the sound effect make it awesome. Just has too long of a reload animation.
Not sure why the Javelin has that delay on it, but I find it more trouble than it's worth because of that.
Widow's my favorite, but the weight (unless in NG+) sends me back to the Mantis.
Black Widow...eh. I don't enjoy feeling like I'm carrying a supergun.

Same here, I usually don't use the heavier rifles. My personal favorite is the Mantis.

[capn233]

I agree the difference in penetration between Black Widow and Javelin is not worth trading in for the Javelin.

But penetration is one reason Black Widow is arguably better than Valiant.

Modifié par capn233, 19 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

JaegerBane wrote...

capn233 wrote...

If you think cover penetration (which is different than armor piercing in this game) is useless, then you aren't being imaginative enough.

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting its useless, we just don't understand why DJCS thinks that it introduces some sort of revolution in sniping and is worth cutting your killing rate in half 99% of the time.

The Javelin is saddled with some painful disadvantages that mean that even if you're one-shotting targets you'll still struggle to keep up with the BW - the issue is that DJCS seems to think that being able to hit an enemy behind cover makes up for the fact that you can kill multiple enemies in the same amount of time.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

[capn233]

DJCS wrote...

CountSnackula wrote...

Not sure about best.
But I always find myself returning to the Mantis. The weight, the damage, and the sound effect make it awesome. Just has too long of a reload animation.
Not sure why the Javelin has that delay on it, but I find it more trouble than it's worth because of that.
Widow's my favorite, but the weight (unless in NG+) sends me back to the Mantis.
Black Widow...eh. I don't enjoy feeling like I'm carrying a supergun.

Same here, I usually don't use the heavier rifles. My personal favorite is the Mantis.

Mantis is an excellent rifle.  Lot of people think the single shot rifles are useless, but I played most of my Infiltrator game with Mantis and Predator.