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Please bring back DA:O style crafting


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#1
Anomaly-

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I actually feel this way about pretty much all of the skills that were gutted from DA:O, as my options in character build were significantly lessened in DA2. If I wanted to make a character who specialized in making poisons, I can't do that. Traps? Can't do that. Pets, bribery, stealing, etc? Can't do that. This is one of my single biggest gripes with DA2. I have so few options in what I can build and roleplay. However, for the purposes of this thread, I will concentrate on crafting.

Mr. Laidlaw  made these comments about the crafting (and other skill) changes in this interview: www.gamespot.com/features/dragon-age-ii-final-thoughts-6305575/

GS: The team made some major changes to skill trees and how they branch out, and removed some skill trees entirely. Can you take us back to the early days of Dragon Age II development and how you approached the skill trees?

ML: The removal, such as they were, was really the skills. My opinion of the Origins skills is that they were a little vestigial. They were there, and they certainly served their purpose in terms of putting points into crafting, and as a result of putting points in crafting, I can now make cooler things. That's very good, but the problem is, because we're providing a party where you can have a B team--to use the old Final Fantasy terminology--you could have Oghren as a master herbologist, mixing together all of your potions at camp rather than having you feel like you're making a meaningful sacrifice. You just have a character you simply didn't use who covered that base for you. Again, looking at that, we thought that really wasn't rewarding. It's more just kind of a pain.


I came up with a very simple solution to that when modding DA:O: Have the user's skill level affect the usefulness of the potion/poison at the time it is used. This makes sense logically, as someone who is more skilled with these sorts of things will know how to make the most of it's effects. It also makes sense in terms of balance, as you now have considerable incentive to keep that character in your party. You now have meaningful sacrifice and reward. Simple.

My main problems with DA2's implementation are that it makes no sense, and doesn't require any special investment on the player's part. You happen across a plant, gather it, forget about it, and now all you have to do is pay someone in town to make as many potions/poisons out of it as you like. Like I said, it doesn't make sense, but it also does nothing to flesh out my character and what he/she is good at. Moreover, playing that character is really no different from playing another character who does not "invest" in using potions/poisons. The only change is some arbitrary requirement that you found at least 1 of something before, and you never have to give it any more thought.

like having to manage large quantities of ingredients of varying rarity, planning what to use and take with me where I'm going, and defining my character as someone who is skilled in their use, and therefore, less skilled at other things. This is what makes the experience of playing that character actually different from playing others. Paying someone gold to give me as much of something as I can afford does not accomplish any of that. For those who don't like doing the things I listed above, simply do not invest in crafting skills as that is clearly not the gameplay style you enjoy. Again, simple. DA:O's system should have been improved instead of outright scrapped. Similar systems in Elder Scrolls games, and more recently Kingdoms of Amalur all go into more depth than DA2 and even DA:O, and those systems are enjoyed by many, including myself, so don't tell me people find it too complicated.

So, is there any good reason not to do this? Discuss.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 08 avril 2012 - 07:43 .


#2
Maria Caliban

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Dragon Age II's crafting system was damn near perfect. Don't touch it.

ADD to it? Sure. BG II style crafting for special weapons like the Flail of Ages would be great.

The basic potions, bombs, and enchantments? Keep it the same.

#3
Cultist

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Already posted about alchemy and agree ith you completely. Crafting have several serious problems:
1. Almost everyone i know are sick of carrying 99 elfroots 99 vials and 99 concentrators. Gathering this garbage everywhere is anooying to no end.
2. You get a lot of potions just lying everywhere, and crafted ones are too expensive to be effective.
3. As for awakening - to make a potion, you have to buy required ingridients, exit location and choose a party member with herbalism skill, craft potions, go back and choose party member with which you will go adventuring.
4. Most potions are not worth it.

Mule NPC

I suppose the best solution is to follow Diablo III experience and implement NPC at your camp who can brew potions and potions for you. You can upgrade him via various quests, bring him new recipes etc.
This will solve the problem of a "mule" party member, with all the crafting skills.

99 elfroots

The problem of 99 elfroots. I don't know how to solve it but can brainstorm some ideas, such as
- Reduce their weight and implement separate inventory slot, like a "Ingridient bag" for them.
- Reduce number of ingridients on the maps and make them abdurant - i.e. get N elfroots from one bush. this will eliminate annoying "corner-searching".
- Keep $-for-ingridients system, but make it...reasonable. Example: Have a mage NPC at your camp\\town square\\another easily accessable location where you would not run half a map or make 3 transitions to get there. The mage can use "quick growth magic" if you bring him\\her seeds. Basically, like DA2 but not as dumb. You can "upgrade" NPC and get more ingridients for the same price.

Potion limit
Tricky part. I see there's a way to make potions matter by implementing a potion limit, i.e. no more than 5 healing potions. This will make them more valuable and actualize the skill. For example, higher levels of skill will add to potion limit. but this should be approached very carefully as this may be balance-breaking.

Make Alchemy(or potion making) skill matter.
As you said, make potions have: quicker cooldown, stronger effects, additional effects depending of skill level. Make this skill affect gameplay and quests, i.e. PC can recognize poison of some victim if his Alchemy skill is high enough. Or can heal someone, like with dwarven cure in DAO.

Make potion effects significant
+3 poison damage is nice, but not worth it, when you have to waste 5 minutes to gather ingridients and brew it. Make potion effects important. +20% damage, +30% resistance, +armor, immunity to knockback\\stun and other. they will be expensive, but make potions worth their price.

#4
Wulfram

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Maker, no! Crafting is a horrible addition to story based CRPGs.

#5
Irx

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age II's crafting system was damn near perfect. Don't touch it.

There is no crafting in da2, are you drunk?

#6
Irx

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Wulfram wrote...

Maker, no! Crafting is a horrible addition to story based CRPGs.

Crafting is always optional. Not interesting in it - then don't bother.

#7
Giga Drill BREAKER

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more importantly bring back DAO's fighting style

#8
Maria Caliban

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Irxy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age II's crafting system was damn near perfect. Don't touch it.

There is no crafting in da2, are you drunk?

I guess all the stuff I made came out of Hawke's butt?

BUTT CRAFTING FOR DA III.

#9
andraip

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NO. DAO crafting was annoying, I just don't like walking around the world map to buy tons of ingredients, then get my potionier into the party, and then click hundreds of times on create potion.

It is just annoying.

Not saying that the DA2 approach was perfect or 100% logical but it was still better.

Your idea of having the skill affect the usefullness of a potion is NOT logical. You just have to drink the potion or to put the poison on your weapon, no skill required. Potions were originally intended to used by other persons the the potionier, you know...

I would like to have skills in DA3, but NON-CRAFTING ones.

#10
Lord Nikon 001

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I actually liked the crafting in Origins. Though I agree it wasn't very cost effective. DA2 crafting was too vague. Again, something in the middle would be nice.

#11
Iosev

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I did not like crafting how it was implemented in DA:O. The only items that I crafted were potions for the most part (and those very same potions trivialized much of the encounters), and runes in Awakening.

In DA2, I found myself using much more of a variety of the crafted items. In addition, the process of crafting was made much easier due to inventory changes.

If anything, I'd like to see improvements to crafting from DA2, not reversions to DA:O.

Modifié par arcelonious, 08 avril 2012 - 03:12 .


#12
Zubie

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DA2's system didn't feel like crafting at all.

You found a resource node and all it did was enable you to buy something. As far as I can remember, Hawke never actually crafts anything.

DAO's system was fine though crafting runes in Awakening was a bit ridiculous though.

Modifié par easygame88, 08 avril 2012 - 04:46 .


#13
VanishedFaces

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I liked DAO's crafting way better. I miss trapmaking, too. I generally prefer to play rogue-types, and I loved being able to stealth, sneak into an area and set up a series of traps, and then ambush my enemies. Super fun :D

#14
Gibb_Shepard

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age II's crafting system was damn near perfect. Don't touch it.

ADD to it? Sure. BG II style crafting for special weapons like the Flail of Ages would be great.

The basic potions, bombs, and enchantments? Keep it the same.


There is no crafting in DA2. You find the supplies you want once, and that's it. You basically "unlock" the potion/bomb, and can buy an unlimited supply. That isn't crafting. I don't believe DAO did it the best either.

If anything, i'd personally prefer TW2's style of crafting. You have to continuously find relevant material for your potions and weapons.

#15
Massakkolia

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I just started replaying DAO and for the first time decided to really focus on non-battle skills. So I'm putting most of my points to pickpocketing and poison craft. Useless perhaps but it does have value from the role playing point of view.

While DA2's crafting system is quick and simple, it lacks the feeling of involvement. DAO's system is excessively laborious but I do get a sense of achievement from it. So yep, finding some middle ground would be ideal.

I hope that DA3 brings non-battle skills back but utilizes them properly and makes them entertaining. Not everybody should be able to do for example herbology. It should require a set of skills attained by allocating points like in DAO. However, these skills should be completely separated from battle skills so you would not end up with "camp companions" and "battle companions".

I think DA2 had a good solution to the 99 elfroots problem but it was executed in a very limited way. There should be more recipes, plants, minerals etc. and the rarest ones should be very challenging to find. Of course the rewards from crafting should be significant as well. The system should encourage players to invest in craft skills and not make it too easy to get the best stuff by looting or from stores.

#16
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Ria wrote...

While DA2's crafting system is quick and simple, it lacks the feeling of involvement. DAO's system is excessively laborious but I do get a sense of achievement from it. So yep, finding some middle ground would be ideal.

I think that feeling of involvement would exist if they simply brought crafting skills back but otherwise didn't touch DA2's system. The 'ordering desks' would become 'crafting desks' and the 'ordering costs' would become 'material gathering costs.'

I support the functionality of DA2's system compared to DAO's needless bloat, which is not, in my eyes, a kind of "complexity" that has any value. It's not rocket science, it's just tedious-- ok, I need to buy 32 rune stones to make 32 least runes, then convert those to 16 lesser runes, then convert those to 8 greater runes, 4 master runes, 2 grandmaster runes, and finally a paragon rune-- or, I need to go to that guy who didn't get mugged in Orzammar to buy 5 distilling agents, then to the Tranquil in Denerim for concentrator agents, then the Dalish camp for elfroots, etc. But DA2's could be presented better, in a way that feels like the player has more "RP" customization options.

#17
mesmerizedish

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Filament wrote...

Ria wrote...

While DA2's crafting system is quick and simple, it lacks the feeling of involvement. DAO's system is excessively laborious but I do get a sense of achievement from it. So yep, finding some middle ground would be ideal.

I think that feeling of involvement would exist if they simply brought crafting skills back but otherwise didn't touch DA2's system. The 'ordering desks' would become 'crafting desks' and the 'ordering costs' would become 'material gathering costs.'

I support the functionality of DA2's system compared to DAO's needless bloat, which is not, in my eyes, a kind of "complexity" that has any value. It's not rocket science, it's just tedious-- ok, I need to buy 32 rune stones to make 32 least runes, then convert those to 16 lesser runes, then convert those to 8 greater runes, 4 master runes, 2 grandmaster runes, and finally a paragon rune-- or, I need to go to that guy who didn't get mugged in Orzammar to buy 5 distilling agents, then to the Tranquil in Denerim for concentrator agents, then the Dalish camp for elfroots, etc. But DA2's could be presented better, in a way that feels like the player has more "RP" customization options.


Listen to this bear. He has good ideas.

Unless he starts blathering about ranger or shapeshifter... that's when you know it's time to snap a muzzle on him.

#18
Maria Caliban

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age II's crafting system was damn near perfect. Don't touch it.

ADD to it? Sure. BG II style crafting for special weapons like the Flail of Ages would be great.

The basic potions, bombs, and enchantments? Keep it the same.


There is no crafting in DA2.

I guess all the stuff I made came out of Hawke's butt?

BUTT CRAFT--

Wait, I already did this.

#19
AtreiyaN7

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I don't care what they do so long as it's ultimately not anywhere near as annoying as crafting runes in DA:A.

#20
Atakuma

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I'd prefer they keep it the way DA2 did it, because running around collecting ingredients is nothing but tedious for me.

#21
Realmzmaster

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It made no sense that only the PC could make potions or traps in camp in DAO. If the PC did not have the herbalism or trapmaking skill you had to break camp and add the potion or trap making companion to the party. The party had to go to a different location to make the potions or traps and then back to camp to change out the potion/trap making companion.
Doesn't it make more sense to have a portable work bench or lab in camp where potions or traps can be made. Where is the PC making potions or traps in camp?
The system in DA2 was not perfect either, but once Hawke found the resources it makes sense in a city to get someone else to do the work. Now an option could have been added for the PC to make the potion. (Would require the addition of a herbalism skill).
There should also be a chance of failure if the skill is not high enough. Ordering the potion would ensure no failure possible. The PC making it should have a risk of failure same with traps. There should be a possibility that the potion would fail, the poison would poison the character or the trap injures the character.

#22
Davillo

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Yea Origins crafting was fine but it was getting tedious, and if they bring traps back make them useful, there was no need to use traps whatsoever even on highest difficulty. The amount of inventory space the ingredients to make potions took was ridiculous same for traps. I think they should take from both games and improve on the the next crafting system, even though I had no issue at all in DA:2 buying all my stuff, hell it made sense you were in a city chillin and not in the wilderness surviving.

This is one of your biggest dissapointments with DA:2? Damn kid I wish I had problems of this magnitude with DA:2.

Modifié par Davillo, 08 avril 2012 - 10:27 .


#23
Jackel159357

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They should have a system similar to Diablo 3 whereby you have NPCs or possibly companions in your camp that can craft items/potions. For ingredients you should have a system similar to DAO whereby you pick up ingredients as you go from the environment and from slain enemies. The thing that should go is the fact that you can get shops with unlimited crafting materials, that was stupid and it just meant you had to run around everywhere to get. There should be a limited amount of resources to craft with which would force players to make tactical decision regarding exactly what they want to craft.

#24
Gibb_Shepard

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age II's crafting system was damn near perfect. Don't touch it.

ADD to it? Sure. BG II style crafting for special weapons like the Flail of Ages would be great.

The basic potions, bombs, and enchantments? Keep it the same.


There is no crafting in DA2.

I guess all the stuff I made came out of Hawke's butt?

BUTT CRAFT--

Wait, I already did this.


Did you make anything, or did you buy it from a convenient vendor-desk present in your study?

#25
Maria Caliban

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Did you make anything, or did you buy it from a convenient vendor-desk present in your study?

I paid other people to craft things based on the materials Hawke gathered. It's still a crafting system.

Hawke didn't personally make anything, but my Warden never personally made anything either.