143 réponses à ce sujet

[Anomaly-]

Filament wrote...
Well it was horrible, that's true. I'm in favor of bringing back skills, but how do you want to "hunt down" ingredients? Do you want DA games to be more open world? Because the DA worlds as they are currently presented really don't offer much in the way of "hunting down" anything.

True, it needs improvement. At least in it's current (DA:O) state, it requires you pay attention to your surroundings and explore off the beaten path. However, what I'd like is something similar to Kingdoms of Amalur, where ingredients are littered around the landscape and grow back over certain periods of time. Of course, this is better served by a less linear game, but it could still work in the current design similarly to how merchant inventories work. Not to mention, they've hinted the design could be slightly less linear in the future. That would be great, but as I said, there is no reason it couldn't be done even now.

Additionally, I'd like to see improvements to gathering with a certain amount of skill investment. Things like more (quantitative) useful ingredients harvested from a given plant, and/or the ability to cultivate your own stockpile at some location.

I don't recall being able to discover recipes in any particular way other than just finding them in DA, but being able to experiment with resource combinations would be interesting.

Yeah, that's a good point to touch on. Skyrim and KoA focused more on experimentation, with recipes available but not actually necessary to make an item. The Witcher 2 (as well as DA:O), by contrast, required a recipe to make anything. I'm really not certain which I'd prefer, as I've enjoyed both approaches. I think it depends on the overall implementation, and just what kinds of craftable items are available. Experimentation makes more sense in Skyrim or KoA where the majority of crafting is consumables, while TW2 allows for crafting of more specific things.

Realmzmaster wrote...

The crafting system used in the Witcher 1 and 2 is interesting but is not really different from the one in DAO and DA2 except you can use trial and error in TW1. Both games require the ingredients and a recipe (formula in DAO and DA2. Scrolls (TW1) and diagrams (TW2)).

Mechanically they're pretty much the same, yes. I think when people talk about TW2 crafting being different, what they're actually talking about is the ability to craft many more things besides consumables. At least, that's what I'm talking about.

You can have both systems. If the player finds a node of an ingredient then the PC can direct the craftman to go gather the necessary ingredients from the nodes and make the potion for a fee. Or the PC can travel to the nodes.
Gather the ingredients from the nodes and make the potion with their portable lab provided their hebalism skill is high enough.

Except those 2 systems are quite different in implementation. If you're going to have an actual skill tied to crafting (as you should), it should also affect the skilled character's effectiveness when using those items. As I said before, this solves the problem of having party member craft mules.

BillsVengenace wrote...

Two Worlds has one of the best crafting system I've seen. BioWare should look to that for inspiration.

Anyone here played Vanguard? I loved the crafting there. But again, as great as that would be, I wouldn't get my hopes up for Bioware to make that radical of a change. Right now, I just think a return to skill investment and meaningful sacrifice/reward is a good start.

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

honestly the crafting system is practically identical to each other, the only problem is you have to pay for a recipe to even make anything in Origins, so you are paying either way.

Edit: acutally i remebered that you pay for recipes in DA2 also, but you can find them elsewhere to.

You may want to read the rest of the thread before you come to that conclusion.

naughty99 wrote...
Fortunately, the "potion drinking system" with its lengthy cooldowns is much improved over DA:O, where you could
simply spam potions to get through any battle.

That's a simple matter of adjusting cooldowns and/or having shared cooldowns between potions with similar effects. I did this when modding DA:O.

And I really liked the fact that enemy rogues could steal your potions in DA2.

That is a nice touch, though unfortunately it's just another way that the player character(s) and enemies are governed by separate rulesets in DA2. Bring back stealing, please.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 10 avril 2012 - 11:34 .

[Aaleel]

Can we please stop calling the Dragon Age 2 system crafting. If I gather ingredients, give them to someone else to cook, and then pay to get a meal back, did I cook? NO. DA2 did not have crafting, you just had the convenience of shopping from home instead of walking to a merchant stand.

Bring back crafting period, and as a skill. I liked being able to craft on mycharacters, or having other party members being able to craft if I decided to pick another skill. I also like being able to craft in the field.  I also wouldn't mind having something like Skyrim where I have an alchemy table in the house where I could use ingredients I gathered and make items without cost.

Modifié par Aaleel, 11 avril 2012 - 02:49 .

[Maria Caliban]

Aaleel wrote...

Can we please stop calling the Dragon Age 2 system crafting.

I liked the Dragon Age 2 crafting system, and I'm not going to stop calling it that because you dislike it.

[Aaleel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Can we please stop calling the Dragon Age 2 system crafting.

I liked the Dragon Age 2 crafting system, and I'm not going to stop calling it that because you dislike it.

Has nothing to do with like or dislike, but the fact that it's not crafting by any definition of the word.  Crafting means that you make it yourself.  You don't make anything yourself in DA2 you buy it.  If you like being able to purchase items so you don't have to make them yourself, more power to you.  But it's not crafting, it's shopping.

Modifié par Aaleel, 11 avril 2012 - 03:29 .

[Realmzmaster]

Aaleel wrote...

Can we please stop calling the Dragon Age 2 system crafting. If I gather ingredients, give them to someone else to cook, and then pay to get a meal back, did I cook? NO. DA2 did not have crafting, you just had the convenience of shopping from home instead of walking to a merchant stand.

Bring back crafting period, and as a skill. I liked being able to craft on mycharacters, or having other party members being able to craft if I decided to pick another skill. I also like being able to craft in the field.  I also wouldn't mind having something like Skyrim where I have an alchemy table in the house where I could use ingredients I gathered and make items without cost.

Let's not call either DAO or DA2 system crafting. Crafting implies the possibility of failure. There is no possibility of failure in either system. In DAO the character cannot even attempt the formula without the requisite level in hebalism which means no failure. Crafting also allows for trial and error which is not present in either system.

The only difference is that once the ingredients are found in DA2 Hawke does not have to continually run around to different locations buying the ingredients and does not mix them . I doubt very few people went around gathering deep mushrooms once they knew Ruck had an endless supply. The same with the elves and elfroot or the Quartermaster in the Circle Tower and lyrium dust. Once those locations were found it was simply a trip to either location to get what is necessary (grocery shopping).

Both systems require the finding of ingredients. Both systems require a recipe before the potion can be made. The only difference is who does it. So if you want to call DAO crafting then DA2 is crafting also. If one chooses not to call  DA2's system crafting that is fine., but DAO system is really not that different.

The crafting system in Eschalon 1 and 2 is closer to a true crafting system than either DAO or DA2. The system has an alchemy skill to which points are assigned that allows for trial and error with the possibility of failure (which causes damage to the character). 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 11 avril 2012 - 03:46 .

[Chromie]

Anomaly- wrote...
Anyone here played Vanguard? I loved the crafting there. But again, as great as that would be, I wouldn't get my hopes up for Bioware to make that radical of a change. Right now, I just think a return to skill investment and meaningful sacrifice/reward is a good start.

*brofist*

Vanguard had a great crafting system but the best crafting I have ever tried will always be Star Wars Galaxies. Bioware learned nothing from that system for Old Republic.


Anyway I still say something like Kotor 2's system would be best unless Bioware would actually spend the time to make skills dedicated to crafting and a system that is more robust.

Modifié par Skelter192, 11 avril 2012 - 04:58 .

[Anomaly-]

Aaleel wrote...

Can we please stop calling the Dragon Age 2 system crafting. If I gather ingredients, give them to someone else to cook, and then pay to get a meal back, did I cook? NO. DA2 did not have crafting, you just had the convenience of shopping from home instead of walking to a merchant stand.

I agree with you, and that's essentially what this thread is all about.

Realmzmaster wrote...

Let's not call either DAO or DA2 system crafting. Crafting implies the possibility of failure.

I don't think the possibility of failure is what really defines a crafting system. For me, what makes crafting crafting is the requirement of skill investment. That's what actually sets characters apart. You can now identify this character as someone who specializes in crafting things, while on subsequent playthroughs where you do not invest in that skill, that character is someone who does not. There is a tangible difference there, both from a gameplay perspective, and a roleplaying one.

Having a possibility of failure is just a design decision, but I agree that it should be there. Sadly, few recent games are designed with that in mind. I'd like to see a possibility of failure based on the crafter's skill level, and relative complexity of the item they are attempting to craft.

Crafting also allows for trial and error which is not present in either system.

Again, that's a design decision. In Skyrim and KoA for example, you can experiment with formulas and fail to your heart's content, because the design doesn't require that you know a formula beforehand. In DA:O and TW2, because they require a recipe, they see a chance of failure as redundant. Which it isn't, imo. Vanguard had a great in-depth
crafting system where you needed a recipe to attempt something, but your chances of successfully making it (as well as the quality of the finished item) were heavily influenced by your skill. And literally everything was craftable in that game. Equipment, houses, furnishings, ships. But again, I don't expect that kind of scope here.

The only difference is that once the ingredients are found in DA2 Hawke does not have to continually run around to different locations buying the ingredients and does not mix them .

Which is quite a large difference from both a roleplaying and mechanic sense, along with the aforementioned skill investment.

I doubt very few people went around gathering deep mushrooms once they knew Ruck had an endless supply. The same with the elves and elfroot or the Quartermaster in the Circle Tower and lyrium dust. Once those locations were found it was simply a trip to either location to get what is necessary (grocery shopping).

Yes, that's a great example of a flaw in DA:O's system that should have been improved, instead of utterly scrapped. Merchant supplies should not be so integral to ingredient gathering.

So if you want to call DAO crafting then DA2 is crafting also. If one chooses not to call  DA2's system crafting that is fine., but DAO system is really not that different.

It's hugely different the way I see it. Sure, DA:O had flaws that prevented it from being a real crafting system you talk about. However, it had potential, and instead of improving on those flaws DA2 instead went the opposite direction and utterly stripped it down to pretty much nothing. Now we really don't have crafting in any capacity.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 11 avril 2012 - 05:13 .

[Anomaly-]

Skelter192 wrote...
Vanguard had a great crafting system but the best crafting I have ever tried will always be Star Wars Galaxies. Bioware learned nothing from that system for Old Republic.

Yeah, I never played SWG, but I always heard great things about the crafting system there too.

[Maria Caliban]

Aaleel wrote...

Has nothing to do with like or dislike, but the fact that it's not crafting by any definition of the word.  Crafting means that you make it yourself.  You don't make anything yourself in DA2 you buy it.  If you like being able to purchase items so you don't have to make them yourself, more power to you.  But it's not crafting, it's shopping.

I didn't make anything myself in DA:O either and I often bought the materials for the potions.

If I didn't craft in DA II by any definition of the word then I didn't craft in DA:O by any definition of the word. The only difference is whether I paid money when I bought the ingredients or whether I paid money when the potion was made.

I'll ask you the same question I asked someone up thread.

If instead of the game portraying Hawke as paying someone else to make the potions, the ordering table was an 'alchemy table' and the money you bought was the material cost of the items, would you consider it a crafting system?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 avril 2012 - 06:31 .

[Realmzmaster]

Aaleel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Can we please stop calling the Dragon Age 2 system crafting.

I liked the Dragon Age 2 crafting system, and I'm not going to stop calling it that because you dislike it.

Has nothing to do with like or dislike, but the fact that it's not crafting by any definition of the word.  Crafting means that you make it yourself.  You don't make anything yourself in DA2 you buy it.  If you like being able to purchase items so you don't have to make them yourself, more power to you.  But it's not crafting, it's shopping.

By the definition of the word crafting does not imply that the PC or party members must have the skill. It simply requires someone who is skilled in the craft to make the item in question. DA2 simply has someone who is not a party member craft the item. Hawke has collected the recipe and ingredients. The work is performed by someone Hawke hires to perform the task. 
The same happens in DAO and DA:A where Wade crafts different armors or weapons. The warden bought Wade the materials from the grocery list Wade provided. The item is crafted for the warden. Wade is a craftsmen for hire.

Given the rune crafting in Awakenings, I would have preferred someone else making the runes. The warden would supply the blueprint and materials. The work would be performed by someone else.  

From a roleplaying point of view it may be important to some, but for me with no possibility of failure or a method of trial and error (where I could create a potion without the formula) I would rather simply have someone else do the work. 

[Chromie]

Maria Caliban wrote...
If instead of the game portraying Hawke as paying someone else to make the potions, the ordering table was an 'alchemy table' and the money you bought was the material cost of the items, would you consider it a crafting system?

I do the same when I order from a deli.

[naughty99]

Anomaly- wrote...

naughty99 wrote...
Fortunately, the "potion drinking system" with its lengthy cooldowns is much improved over DA:O, where you could
simply spam potions to get through any battle.

That's a simple matter of adjusting cooldowns and/or having shared cooldowns between potions with similar effects. I did this when modding DA:O.

Do you honestly think there is any likelihood DA3 will ship with a level editor / toolset?

[Anomaly-]

Filament wrote...
There's significantly more involvement on Hawke's part than simply going to K-mart.

I'd say it's more like going to Costco. You can buy as much of something as you want in bulk, the only requirement being that, at some point in time, you got your hands on a club card.

Maria Caliban wrote...
I'll ask you the same question I asked someone up thread.

If instead of the game portraying Hawke as paying someone else to make the potions, the ordering table was an 'alchemy table' and the money you bought was the material cost of the items, would you consider it a crafting system?

You weren't talking to me, but I'll reply the same way I did before.

No, the biggest fundamental difference is the skill investment (or lack thereof).

Realmzmaster wrote...
By the definition of the word crafting does not imply that the PC or party members must have the skill. It simply requires someone who is skilled in the craft to make the item in question. DA2 simply has someone who is not a party member craft the item. Hawke has collected the recipe and ingredients. The work is performed by someone Hawke hires to perform the task.

Right, but do you hire someone to do your fighting for you?

Honestly, DA2's "crafting" to me is akin to taking out all the talent trees and saying "everyone swings a sword now, that's a combat system". It's entirely dull and uninteresting to me, and I can't see how anyone who actually wants to craft (even just potion making) could find that appealing.

From a roleplaying point of view it may be important to some, but for me with no possibility of failure or a method of trial and error (where I could create a potion without the formula) I would rather simply have someone else do the work.

Would the possibility of failure be enough for you to support a more robust (actual) crafting system?

naughty99 wrote...
Do you honestly think there is any likelihood DA3 will ship with a level editor / toolset?

I'm doubtful, but I sure hope it does.

Anyway, the point was that adjusting the cooldowns was all they needed to do.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 11 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

This thread is reminiscent of the arguments regarding Inventory and Equipment Management in Mass Effect 1/2.

[SirGladiator]

I really liked the DA2 crafting system, this was one of the best upgrades in the game. I hope they take that system, and upgrade it even further for DA3. It'd be nice if maybe you could craft some super rare and powerful weapons and/or armor, in addition to the various useful items. It was such a pleasant surprise, how good the crafting system in DA2 was, and I'm definitely hopeful it will be awesome in DA3 as well.

[Aaleel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Has nothing to do with like or dislike, but the fact that it's not crafting by any definition of the word.  Crafting means that you make it yourself.  You don't make anything yourself in DA2 you buy it.  If you like being able to purchase items so you don't have to make them yourself, more power to you.  But it's not crafting, it's shopping.

I didn't make anything myself in DA:O either and I often bought the materials for the potions.

If I didn't craft in DA II by any definition of the word then I didn't craft in DA:O by any definition of the word. The only difference is whether I paid money when I bought the ingredients or whether I paid money when the potion was made.

I'll ask you the same question I asked someone up thread.

If instead of the game portraying Hawke as paying someone else to make the potions, the ordering table was an 'alchemy table' and the money you bought was the material cost of the items, would you consider it a crafting system?

You buy materials in real life when you craft.  Wood, stain, glue, etc, what does that have to do with anything?  But the main point is that in the end, you make the chair or whatever yourself, which is what you did in DA:O.

You don't buy the materials, give them to someone else, let them make the chair, and then say you made a chair.  You didn't make anything.   This is basically what you're doing in DA2.  Big difference from the first example.

As for the last question, the whole idea of magical connections to stores in the home just seems dumb to me.  So no, you came to the table with no ingredients in pocket/pouch, paid money and got an item back.  If you find ingredients lying around you should be able craft them into an item.

Modifié par Aaleel, 11 avril 2012 - 11:27 .

[Aaleel]

Realmzmaster wrote...

By the definition of the word crafting does not imply that the PC or party members must have the skill. It simply requires someone who is skilled in the craft to make the item in question. DA2 simply has someone who is not a party member craft the item. Hawke has collected the recipe and ingredients. The work is performed by someone Hawke hires to perform the task. 
The same happens in DAO and DA:A where Wade crafts different armors or weapons. The warden bought Wade the materials from the grocery list Wade provided. The item is crafted for the warden. Wade is a craftsmen for hire.

Given the rune crafting in Awakenings, I would have preferred someone else making the runes. The warden would supply the blueprint and materials. The work would be performed by someone else.  

From a roleplaying point of view it may be important to some, but for me with no possibility of failure or a method of trial and error (where I could create a potion without the formula) I would rather simply have someone else do the work. 

While I would like the idea of being able to figure out recepies like in Skyrim, I just want to be able to take ingredients I've found to a table, or in the field make an item.  Like I said earlier if someone likes having another person make something for them so they don't have to do it, more power to them, but Hawke crafted zero items in DA2.

They should have let people who wanted to craft be able to craft materials they found into items, and people who didn't want to craft just buy them.

[sickpixie]

Anomaly- wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Let's not call either DAO or DA2 system crafting. Crafting implies the possibility of failure.

I don't think the possibility of failure is what really defines a crafting system. For me, what makes crafting crafting is the requirement of skill investment. That's what actually sets characters apart. You can now identify this character as someone who specializes in crafting things, while on subsequent playthroughs where you do not invest in that skill, that character is someone who does not. There is a tangible difference there, both from a gameplay perspective, and a roleplaying one.

Having a possibility of failure is just a design decision, but I agree that it should be there. Sadly, few recent games are designed with that in mind. I'd like to see a possibility of failure based on the crafter's skill level, and relative complexity of the item they are attempting to craft.

A random chance of failure in a game where you can save/load anywhere is pointless and just leads to many people saving and reloading every time they fail to craft something. I don't see anything wrong with thresholds. Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir had one of my favorite implementations of crafting (even if some recipes were broken and could lead to overpowered characters, which is par for the course with crafting systems) and there was never any chance of failure as long as you met the skill requirements.

Anyway I think the current system can be improved by mostly keeping it as it is and tying it to a skill threshold only the player character can access. They're bringing back noncombat skills, so it'd fit with them, and this could also bring back and potentially improve noncombat applications for crafting (see the Exotic Methods quest in Origins for example).

[Jackel159357]

The thing with DA2 system was it was basically just the a way of buying from shops without the need to worry about stock so long as you found the resource nodes.

I bet in DA3 they will cut that out and just have shops with unlimited stocks of potions.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

DA 2 crafting seemed pretty lame to me, and DA:O crafting was okay, if not uninspired. I do like crafting items, whether armors, weapons, potions or other items. It can add to the character or even open up roleplay options if the developers have the presence of mind to allow it. Sadly, I'm not sure Bioware is bringing back anything like crafting. They seem to like to streamline everything these days. I hope they prove me wrong and add back some crafting mechanics.

[Maria Caliban]

Skelter192 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
If instead of the game portraying Hawke as paying someone else to make the potions, the ordering table was an 'alchemy table' and the money you bought was the material cost of the items, would you consider it a crafting system?

I do the same when I order from a deli.

To be sure, if I order cheese, meat, and bread from a deli, go home, and assemble it into a sandwich, you wouldn't consider that my crafting a sandwich?

If that's the case, I'm not sure how the DA:O system is crafting either.

[Realmzmaster]

sickpixie wrote...

Anomaly- wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Let's not call either DAO or DA2 system crafting. Crafting implies the possibility of failure.

I don't think the possibility of failure is what really defines a crafting system. For me, what makes crafting crafting is the requirement of skill investment. That's what actually sets characters apart. You can now identify this character as someone who specializes in crafting things, while on subsequent playthroughs where you do not invest in that skill, that character is someone who does not. There is a tangible difference there, both from a gameplay perspective, and a roleplaying one.

Having a possibility of failure is just a design decision, but I agree that it should be there. Sadly, few recent games are designed with that in mind. I'd like to see a possibility of failure based on the crafter's skill level, and relative complexity of the item they are attempting to craft.

A random chance of failure in a game where you can save/load anywhere is pointless and just leads to many people saving and reloading every time they fail to craft something. I don't see anything wrong with thresholds. Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir had one of my favorite implementations of crafting (even if some recipes were broken and could lead to overpowered characters, which is par for the course with crafting systems) and there was never any chance of failure as long as you met the skill requirements.

Anyway I think the current system can be improved by mostly keeping it as it is and tying it to a skill threshold only the player character can access. They're bringing back noncombat skills, so it'd fit with them, and this could also bring back and potentially improve noncombat applications for crafting (see the Exotic Methods quest in Origins for example).

In my post I also want trial and error which is not present in either system. As far as reloading there is nothing stopping gamers from doing that. In fact gamers do it now when a battle or decision made goes bad. Why should I have to craft an item if there is no possible way to fail. I can simply hand that task off to someone else and pay for it. It is simply a waste of skill points. Where is the sense of accomplishment?

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 11 avril 2012 - 06:14 .

[Pasquale1234]

Realmzmaster wrote...

In my post I also what trial and error which is not present in either system. As far as reloading there is nothing stopping gamers from doing that. In fact gamers do it now when a battle or decision made goes bad. Why should I have to craft an item if there is no possible way to fail. I can simply hand that task off to someone else and pay for it. It is simply a waste of skill points. Where is the sense of accomplishment?

You can also call a plumber everytime the toilet is plugged and hire a lawn service instead of mowing it yourself.  Where is the sense of accomplishment?

Some people prefer hiring work done, others are do-it-yourselfers.

[Thori]

Although a DAO fan, crafting system is actually the one thing ( besides voiced protagonist) in DA2 that I liked. I used to spend hours, making potions and runes for me and my companions, comparing ones with others, experimenting. While it IS highly rewarding as OP says, it is also, VERY time consuming. And as much as I love locking myself up in my room and playing DAO all day and night, I simply can't afford myself to spend so much time thinking about potions and runes when there are more important things i should do. Both in game and IRL. Maybe some things should be added to DA2 system, but it should be preserved in basis.