143 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

Aaleel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Thori wrote...

Although a DAO fan, crafting system is actually the one thing ( besides voiced protagonist) in DA2 that I liked. I used to spend hours, making potions and runes for me and my companions, comparing ones with others, experimenting. While it IS highly rewarding as OP says, it is also, VERY time consuming. And as much as I love locking myself up in my room and playing DAO all day and night, I simply can't afford myself to spend so much time thinking about potions and runes when there are more important things i should do. Both in game and IRL. Maybe some things should be added to DA2 system, but it should be preserved in basis.

I don't see how crafting taking a lot of time can be a reason to streamline it basically into non-existence.  Crafting is not mandatory, it's optional.  People who want to craft can craft, and people who don't can buy items from a merchant or make due with what they pick up as loot, or some combination of the two. 

Not quite, in DAO one sidequest (Exotic Methods) it is not optional. The sidequest is optional but you must have a party member who is a master hebalist to create the dwarven regicide antidote. Otherwise the quest cannot be completed

It's a sidequest it's optional.  Same way there are quests you couldn't do without someone who could make traps, or make poisons, or had survival, or pickpocket, or lockpick.  Heck you can't even open chests without being or having a rogue in the party.

If you don't need it to finish the main storyline it's optional.  Having certain skills present should get you extra things, most basic example is getting loot out of locked chests.

Did you miss in my post where I said the sidequest is optional, but if you do the sidequest being a master hebalist is not optional and it does matter to completists which a great many on this forum happen to be.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's a simplification of the process.  BioWare seems to be systematically reducing or eliminating inventory management as an aspect of gameplay.

Glorious, isn't it?

It's dreadful.  Is your character a packrat or a minimalist?  Does she care more about accruing wealth, or is she more concerned with convenience?

I have more than one character. They're typically unconcerned with wealth but my warrior Hawke cared about it a great deal because of her mother's desires (to reclaim the family estate) and because of the utterly false suggestion that wealth might help protect her sister.

But with any given character, inventory management is a tool with which you can express that character's personality.

A character who hoards wealth might collect every piece of loot and worry about how to carry it all back to a merchant and how to maximse his return.  A character who values convenience, though, might leave loot behind because she couldn't be bothered to deal with it and it would clutter up the carefully arranged inventory she already has.

Inventory management is just another way in which your character design can affect the story.  And I want more of those, not fewer.

And there lies the dilemma, you want more others want less so Bioware will have to find the balance. No one is going to get everything they want. It going to require compromise.

[Chromie]

Realmzmaster wrote...

And there lies the dilemma, you want more others want less so Bioware will have to find the balance. No one is going to get everything they want. It going to require compromise.

Well Bioware has trouble finding the middleground. ME1 bad inventory so instead of working on it they removed in ME2. ME3 finally had a good system not the best and could use some work but it's definitely an improvement.


DA:O just had limit on different items instead of a grid based system so that gives a lot of freedom which makes it easier for a crafter but instead of improving upon it they decided it was too much trouble for us and just give us an infinite supply of mats obviously the way the world was designed you can't really just hunt for materials but it's as if Bioware thinks in extremes. 

[Anomaly-]

Filament wrote...
The player is allowed to do it either way. It's fundamentally the same "gameplay" as Origins had, allowing you to "craft" items normally unavailable from merchants by finding recipes and ingredients, except the "hunting down" is streamlined and you don't need to carry around sacks of ingredients. So the difference is not whether the gameplay itself is available to the player (though it has variations, as noted), but whether the player's character can personally craft the item.

The gameplay, to me, is the act of gathering and managing ingredients, and investing in a skill proficiency. That's not available to me. Sure, I had to find at least 1 "node" in order to purchase things, but that's so arbitrary a requirement it's hardly any different from the requirement of having to find a merchant before you can purchase things from them. Nothing in that "system" allows me to differentiate between characters who are skilled or unskilled in crafting, nor allows me access to any different form of gameplay. As a result, it doesn't interest me in the slightest.

Given that difference, it seems the comparison would only be appropriate if DA2 had an imp who followed Hawke around and used its magic to shapeshift Hawke on command. Hawke doesn't personally know shapeshifting magic, but the player still has access to shapeshifting gameplay. And I'd be down with calling that a "shapeshifting system."

My comparison wasn't strictly accurate, because yes the player can benefit from a supposed crafting system, but I wouldn't say the gameplay is available to them. At least in your example, I can see ways shapeshifting like that might actually change up the gameplay. If, however, all the imp did was change you cosmetically, and it was freely available to any character, I wouldn't call that a gameplay system, and I would find it rather pointless. Finding a node before I can use a merchant is really no different from finding a merchant before I can use them, mechanically. There is no difference in gameplay, nor character.

Recipe
Skill OR craftsman fee
Material x,y,z OR crafthall fee

Both fees together would amount to the same cost as DA2's system, since that's what DA2's system represents. If you don't have a node for x,y, or z, or the materials themselves, you can't craft it.

That wouldn't be too terrible, as long as the player has an actual reason to invest in a crafting skill, and the gameplay differs as a result.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's a simplification of the process.  BioWare seems to be systematically reducing or eliminating inventory management as an aspect of gameplay.

Glorious, isn't it?

Besides what Sylvius said about character personality, it seems pointless mechanically to even have an inventory limit when it becomes less and less of an issue to manage it.

Realmzmaster wrote...
Did you miss in my post where I said the sidequest is optional, but if you do the sidequest being a master hebalist is not optional and it does matter to completists which a great many on this forum happen to be.

Having certain things only available to certain character types is a large part of what makes those choices matter. Wasn't it a huge problem to a lot of people that there was no consequence for playing a Blood Mage in DA2? When they talked about making class and specialization choice matter more at the PAX panel, I suspect this is the kind of thing they were talking about. That's perfectly fine with me, I think it's dumb that I can complete the College of Winterhold quests in Skyrim despite being completely unskilled in any magic. At least I can't do both the Imperial and Stormcloak quests, that would be a joke.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 12 avril 2012 - 06:12 .

[Realmzmaster]

Anomaly- wrote...

Having certain things only available to certain character types is a large part of what makes those choices matter. Wasn't it a huge problem to a lot of people that there was no consequence for playing a Blood Mage in DA2? When they talked about making class and specialization choice matter more at the PAX panel, I suspect this is the kind of thing they were talking about. That's perfectly fine with me, I think it's dumb that I can complete the College of Winterhold quests in Skyrim despite being completely unskilled in any magic. At least I can't do both the Imperial and Stormcloak quests, that would be a joke.

Herbalist was not limited to a particular character type. Mages simply started with one point already in the skill. Any party member could be a herbalist and achieve master herbalist. The only quests that were class specific in DAO were the ones given by Slim Couldry for the rogue. That decision upset a great many gamers because there were no quests like that for the other classes.

The problem with blood mages is a continuation from DAO. You can give Wynne the Blood mage specialization without a peek from her and no consequence, which makes no sense given the story, but does allow for player agency.

The warden can be a Blood mage but is plot shielded because he/she is a grey warden. Wynne and Leliana  will still follow the warden. Wynne mentions it only once that if the warden is a blood mage she should leave and attack the party, but it does not happen. It only happens if the warden deflies the scared ashes. 

I already in other posts state that the story for mages should have been different from warrior and rogue. That the mages would have to be sneaked into Kirkwall to meet with the smugglers or merecenries would provide them with protection from the templars and guards (by payoffs) and ways to disguise their skill in public.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 12 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[Realmzmaster]

Skelter192 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

And there lies the dilemma, you want more others want less so Bioware will have to find the balance. No one is going to get everything they want. It going to require compromise.

Well Bioware has trouble finding the middleground. ME1 bad inventory so instead of working on it they removed in ME2. ME3 finally had a good system not the best and could use some work but it's definitely an improvement.


DA:O just had limit on different items instead of a grid based system so that gives a lot of freedom which makes it easier for a crafter but instead of improving upon it they decided it was too much trouble for us and just give us an infinite supply of mats obviously the way the world was designed you can't really just hunt for materials but it's as if Bioware thinks in extremes. 

You liked the DAO system others like the DA2 system. Like it or not that is going to require compromise or the implementation of both systems or hybird of the two systems. Unless Bioware decides to anger one side or both sides, but that is a decision Bioware has to come to grips.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

And there lies the dilemma, you want more others want less so Bioware will have to find the balance. No one is going to get everything they want. It going to require compromise.

DAO was the compromise.  I'm not willing to give any more ground.

[Anomaly-]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Herbalist was not limited to a particular character type. Mages simply started with one point already in the skill. Any party member could be a herbalist and achieve master herbalist. The only quests that were class specific in DAO were the ones given by Slim Couldry for the rogue. That decision upset a great many gamers because there were no quests like that for the other classes.

Well yes, I didn't mean literally class/specialization as defined in the game. If you choose to invest in herbalism, your character specializes in herbalism, whether or not the game literally defines it as such. As a result, some quests should only be available to you if you or anyone in your party possesses a skill applicable to it. I have no problem with this, as it makes perfect sense to me.

Personally, I really don't care if a Rogue character has 118 potential quests to experience, while a Warrior has 116. What is more important is that the experience is noticeably different. I think that one particular instance was just a result of no longer having Chaotic Good, etc, and instead assuming that only a Rogue would not morally object to it.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

And there lies the dilemma, you want more others want less so Bioware will have to find the balance. No one is going to get everything they want. It going to require compromise.

DAO was the compromise.  I'm not willing to give any more ground.

Then one side or the other must prepare for disappointment.

[Maria Caliban]

Anomaly- wrote...

Besides what Sylvius said about character personality, it seems pointless mechanically to even have an inventory limit when it becomes less and less of an issue to manage it.

Agreed. I've said they should get rid of inventory for years now, but getting rid of inventory limit would also be a good move.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 avril 2012 - 09:39 .

[Realmzmaster]

Anomaly- wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Herbalist was not limited to a particular character type. Mages simply started with one point already in the skill. Any party member could be a herbalist and achieve master herbalist. The only quests that were class specific in DAO were the ones given by Slim Couldry for the rogue. That decision upset a great many gamers because there were no quests like that for the other classes.

Well yes, I didn't mean literally class/specialization as defined in the game. If you choose to invest in herbalism, your character specializes in herbalism, whether or not the game literally defines it as such. As a result, some quests should only be available to you if you or anyone in your party possesses a skill applicable to it. I have no problem with this, as it makes perfect sense to me.

Personally, I really don't care if a Rogue character has 118 potential quests to experience, while a Warrior has 116. What is more important is that the experience is noticeably different. I think that one particular instance was just a result of no longer having Chaotic Good, etc, and instead assuming that only a Rogue would not morally object to it.

Still does not explain why Bioware did not include quests for the other classes for balance. Actually 4 of the quests are available to other classes if they have a point in stealing. They simply will not be very good at it uness they get at least to level 3. The other 4 quests involve stealth which only the rogue could do.
I like your suggestion but the way Bioware writes the story at least one of your companions will have the skill which means all quests will be open. In a single character game it may make a difference.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 12 avril 2012 - 09:52 .

[Realmzmaster]

Anomaly- wrote...

Besides what Sylvius said about character personality, it seems pointless mechanically to even have an inventory limit when it becomes less and less of an issue to manage it.

You do understand that Sylvius ideal inventory management system would be based on weight restrictions like what is done in D & D mechanics. The weight restriction would included all armor worn and any items carried. Everything would have weight. (as it should). D & D got partially around that restriction by having gem bags and bags of holding. Just about everything in DAO is a compromise to him.

I am in the same group, but tend to be a little more flexible. My favorite games being Temple of Elemental Evil, Legend, Ultima, Wizardry, Might & Magic and Pool of Radiance Myth Drannor. I am playing Eschalon II which is also a throw back to the old ways, which is why I talk about trial and error and failure in alchemy or herbalism. Eschalon II has those mechanics.

[Anomaly-]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Agreed. I've said they should get rid of inventory for years now, but getting rid of inventory limit would also be a good move.

Another aspect of gameplay completely gone? It's clear we're just not going to see eye to eye on this.

Just out of curiosity, why do you play these games?

Realmzmaster wrote...
You do understand that Sylvius ideal inventory management system would be based on weight restrictions like what is done in D & D mechanics. The weight restriction would included all armor worn and any items carried. Everything would have weight. (as it should). D & D got partially around that restriction by having gem bags and bags of holding. Just about everything in DAO is a compromise to him.

That would be fine with me, it's ridiculous that there is no difference between carrying 80 daggers and 80 breastplates.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 12 avril 2012 - 10:41 .

[Aaleel]

I wouldn't mind a weight system like the Witcher or Skyrim, where everything has a different weight specific to the type of item it is.

Also I would like to see certain items only attainable by those who partake in a certain skills. Either you should be able to make something a far less cost than buying it from a merchant and/or there should be certain items that can only be obtained through skills.

If there's no benefit to leveling a certain skill what's the point in putting skill points and time into it. You may as well streamline the skill tree down to nothing but combat, which sadly is where I think we're headed.

Modifié par Aaleel, 12 avril 2012 - 10:49 .

[Jackel159357]

It annoyed me you had to pay money for the 'crafted' potions in DA2, I thought the idea of crafting was you made it yourself so you could save some gold you could then spend on high end items from shops.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You do understand that Sylvius ideal inventory management system would be based on weight restrictions like what is done in D & D mechanics. The weight restriction would included all armor worn and any items carried. Everything would have weight. (as it should). D & D got partially around that restriction by having gem bags and bags of holding. Just about everything in DAO is a compromise to him.

I'd sacrifice weight limits if doing so got me individual inventories (rather than a single group inventory).  Or even just a sortable inventory that didn't force me to navigate that damn list every time.

Many people assume that weight limits would require individual inventories, but that's not true.  Wizardry 8 had both weight limits and a group inventory.

When I say DAO was the compromise, I mean that I now want something back for every good feature I give up.  Things I'd like to see that DAO didn't have include:

Non-regenerating health or mana
The ability to use any party member as party spokesperson
Resting
Individual inventories
Sortable inventory
Size and weight limits in inventory
Free travel between areas
Symmetrical combat mechanics
Full documentation of combat mechanics
A combat log
A shallower power curve
Non-cinematic dialogue
Slower rate of advancement (perhaps 1 level per 10 hours of gameplay).
No XP gain for unused companions
Full customisation of all playable characters
A less obvious main plot

Of those, DA2 gave us only the last one.  That doesn't begin to make up for all of the negatives added to DA2, like the loss of the tactical camera, the enforcement of combat roles by class, the voiced protagonist and paraphrase system, the even more assymmetrical combat mechanics, the overly stylised art and animations, the linear corridor level design, the loss of non-combat stealth, the restriction of combat casting to combat, the inability to ambush anyone, the area re-use, the fixed companion appearances, the broken friend-rival system, the limited range party members could wander from each other... the list goes on.

DA2 did improve the tactics page, and it did make the main plot less obvious.  Those are both good things.

But the price of everything we lost was far too steep.

[Pzykozis]

I'm suprised anyone actually crafted in Origins.. no I really am, I didn't touch it at all.

I actually did craft in 2 though, so essentially this thread is like please Bioware remove crafting from your game!

And inventory management is dull, I'm never sure how to approach the idea that either playing unchallenging tetris or having to continually backtrack is fun or really adds to a game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pzykozis wrote...

I'm suprised anyone actually crafted in Origins.. no I really am, I didn't touch it at all.

You could earn income from crafting in DAO.  You could turn a profit.

And inventory management is dull, I'm never sure how to approach the idea that either playing unchallenging tetris or having to continually backtrack is fun or really adds to a game.

It's dull for you.  Is it dull for your character?  Is managing his inventory important to him?

As a general rule, anything that creates a possible difference between any two possible PCs is a good feature.

[Amycus89]

Pzykozis wrote...

I'm suprised anyone actually crafted in Origins.. no I really am, I didn't touch it at all.

I actually did craft in 2 though, so essentially this thread is like please Bioware remove crafting from your game!
.

Maybe for you, but for me it was the opposite. I never even crafted any potions or anything in DA2, while I crafted almost all my consumables in DA:O.

[Pzykozis]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

I'm suprised anyone actually crafted in Origins.. no I really am, I didn't touch it at all.

You could earn income from crafting in DAO.  You could turn a profit.

And inventory management is dull, I'm never sure how to approach the idea that either playing unchallenging tetris or having to continually backtrack is fun or really adds to a game.

It's dull for you.  Is it dull for your character?  Is managing his inventory important to him?

As a general rule, anything that creates a possible difference between any two possible PCs is a good feature.

Eh? I don't really understand your question if something is not fun it's not fun, I won't be all masochistic about it. Maybe a fundamental discord between non-rp'ers and rp'ers? I;m the latter for the record. The character doesn't exist in so much as the character is me to whatever extent.

I can see how choices defining differences between PCs is good for replayability and the like but, I don't see how inventory factors in to it, you have to handicap yourself by refusing to pick up loot on the grounds that it makes this character different from another.. that just doesn't really make sense to me.

@Amy fair enough, I didn't craft all that much in DA2 either (but not much crafting is still a lot more than none), though Sky fight in MotA on nightmare without bombs and poisons is pretty painful. I just never found the use for them in Origins but then I didn't know you could make money from it.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 12 avril 2012 - 11:18 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pzykozis wrote...

Eh? I don't really understand your question if something is not fun it's not fun, I won't be all masochistic about it. Maybe a fundamental discord between non-rp'ers and rp'ers? I;m the latter for the record. The character doesn't exist in so much as the character is me to whatever extent.

I think you meant former.

When I roleplay, I have the character do what the character wants to do.  Ultimately I'm responsible for having created that preference, but once created it no longer matters whether I enjoy doing it.

I can see how choices defining differences between PCs is good for replayability and the like but, I don't see how inventory factors in to it, you have to handicap yourself by refusing to pick up loot on the grounds that it makes this character different from another.. that just doesn't really make sense to me.

You're not handicapping yourself, you're playing your character.  If your character's behaviour is such that he would leave the loot behind, then you should leave the loot behind.  If your next character's behaviour is different, then play him differently.

[Vaeliorin]

Amycus89 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...
I'm suprised anyone actually crafted in Origins.. no I really am, I didn't touch it at all.

I actually did craft in 2 though, so essentially this thread is like please Bioware remove crafting from your game!

Maybe for you, but for me it was the opposite. I never even crafted any potions or anything in DA2, while I crafted almost all my consumables in DA:O.

I pretty much only crafted runes in both games beyond my initial couple playthroughs of DA (mostly because I had no need for all the consumables...more than enough dropped for my needs.)

I'd love to see a good crafting system in DA3.  There haven't been, in my experience, many (if any) good crafting systems in single-player RPGs that I've played.  Drakensang had rudimentary crafting (items required + skill + recipe + crafting table = crafted item.)  NWN2 also had an okay crafting system, though it could have used more depth (admittedly, it wasn't that far off from the basic crafting rules in 3.X D&D.)  KOA has a crafting system that is interesting in terms of customization, but sadly takes the difficulty of the game and snaps it into little tiny bits.

As previously mentioned in the thread, Vanguard had an excellent crafting system (though I'd have liked to have gotten rid of some of the restrictions in regards to what enchantments you could put on what items...I wanted a striking bladed staff, darn it!) that allowed not only for failure, but varying grades of success when crafting an item.  I really like crafting in most games that have it, but it's not as fun when it doesn't allow much in the way of customization, or produce items that are truly useful, but not overpowered.

[Meris]

Filament wrote...

Are you suggesting the PC's crafting should be superior to what a dedicated craftsman could do? I don't see that.

Being a Master trap maker seemed to imply a lot of dedication on my Warden's part.