Aller au contenu

Photo

Wow..I think every Fan and Bioware employee should study this!


481 réponses à ce sujet

#176
The Anti-Saint

The Anti-Saint
  • Members
  • 389 messages

GdawgTuk wrote...



it's 39 minutes long, but holy cow did it open my eyes to just...everything going on with the ending. It seriously explained why it's so much more than just, "it's sad, I don't like it." Not even close! This seriously says it all, and Bioware employees and fans alike should check this out. 


Outstanding...learned something new while listening to constructive criticism; this guy is dead on. I especially like the part when he's shooting the Starbrat; should superimpose the EA symbol...or just tag it to Starbrats chest for greater dramatic impact.

#177
lofte_2000

lofte_2000
  • Members
  • 318 messages
This is one of the few mature threads that I've seen on here regarding the ending situation, which is why I'm staying here and refreshing every few minutes. The video's pretty much cover everything that is wrong with the endings and then some and the discussion is just that - a discussion, rather than ranting and whining.

#178
Aeowyn

Aeowyn
  • Members
  • 1 988 messages
Just finished watching it. Great video.

#179
DocJill

DocJill
  • Members
  • 177 messages
Yep, the best video pointing out specifically how the ending is a complete debacle. Unless IT is true, of course.

#180
SeanThen1

SeanThen1
  • Members
  • 1 055 messages
Very interesting discussion. I will have to take the time to watch the videa in detail. Allan Schumacher, please do be careful not to say/do anything that could get you into any trouble. That being said, thanks for coming by and discussing the ending. I know you weren't involved, but still, if the actual writers attempted something like what you did, perhaps we could all find some middle ground.

#181
Nykara

Nykara
  • Members
  • 1 929 messages

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

Nykara wrote...

[...]

I understand that there are budget restrictions but heck I would have rathered pay an extra $10 or $20 for the game for it to be able to have had a third disk to include more game play, dialogue options with crew mates and love interests as well as better ending cinematics [...]


One could think that maybe theyre testing how far they can go to squeeze out your wallet. ME is perfect for is as you demonstrate. Players are so attached to it they'd swallow the greatest bull**** just to get what they want.


You know what? I live with a computer game programmer and believe it or not there are actually limits to what a budget can or can't do and still turn over some profit to those who run the show - it is afterall a business. Business doesn't make some profit there's nothing to pay the programmers. No programmers no games.

#182
GdawgTuk

GdawgTuk
  • Members
  • 64 messages

killnoob wrote...

this is the type of critics bioware should listen to, not the at at IGN....

Allan, can you make sure Hudson/Walters see this please.

 

Interrupt his umpteenth play through of Deus Ex and make him put down the notepad lol. After seeing all the old gameplay from ME1 I want to replay it now. Sadly it seems pointless because I wouldn't desire finishing it, and that makes the replay seem shallow. Instead of being invested in what feels like the real living world of mass effect, it now feels fake for the first time.

That is just something I never, ever wanted to see. 

The true shame is if they make a fourth or start a new story within the ME universe I could see advertisement tag lines like "come experience the return to the original story driven experience you fell in love with!" etc etc. basically referencing and using this horrible chain of events against the world of ME as nothing more than a way to relate and entice players purely as an effective way to advertise. 

Some random venting sorry. The last thing I'm trying to do is derail the mature nature of this thread, just frustrated after seeing the latest video about PAX.

Modifié par GdawgTuk, 08 avril 2012 - 03:48 .


#183
Action Bawstard

Action Bawstard
  • Members
  • 81 messages
Wonderful

#184
DocJill

DocJill
  • Members
  • 177 messages

InsaneAzrael wrote...


This is not art

vid from the same vid producer.


Thanks for posting his new vid -- hadn't seen it yet. 

"Why am I shooting this tube?!?!?!?!?"

Excellent.

#185
killnoob

killnoob
  • Members
  • 856 messages
come on Hudson/Walters....communicate with us....

we don't bite

oh wait, some of us do

Modifié par killnoob, 08 avril 2012 - 03:52 .


#186
GdawgTuk

GdawgTuk
  • Members
  • 64 messages

DocJill wrote...

InsaneAzrael wrote...


This is not art

vid from the same vid producer.


Thanks for posting his new vid -- hadn't seen it yet.  

"Why am I shooting this tube?!?!?!?!?"

Excellent.


It really reminds me of Family guy as odd as it sounds. When Peter gets a gun he starts turning off lights by shooting them. Who creates a system that activates via destroying something via gunshot? Could you imagine during the Fukushima power plant disaster in Japan, if that was their solution?

Plant worker: What should we do to stop this?

Man over phone: shoot it....

Plant worker: ....what?

Man over phone: shoot it...

Plant worker: .....

Man over phone: .....*click*

Modifié par GdawgTuk, 08 avril 2012 - 04:00 .


#187
crawfs

crawfs
  • Members
  • 194 messages

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I enjoyed the attempts to add some humor.  In general that was good, although I would have liked to have seen all the questions he had posed that challenged narrative coherence. 

Okay right there I think you're kind of missing the point. He says that lots of little things start showing up "how did they move the citadel above earth" and so on although the one bit about tyhe citadel doesn't break Narrative coherence it plays a part, just like the large beam of light, the illusive man's a ability to indroctinate people, the catalyst so on and so forth.

Though IMO if you have issues with the Crucible in general, it
undermines some of the events that happen in the ending because it's
kind of liking counting twice.  If you think the Crucible is lame, then
it stands to reason you're going to find other aspects of the Crucible
lame as well.

I don't think he really had a problem with the crucible, his problem was with the catalyst and the god child/AI/thing that seemed to have been thrown in at the last minute and introduced a new plot point at the very end of the game...

Apart from those two points (where either you've interpreted the video wrong or maybe I have) you seem to make a valid point. I agree completely that the Reapers shouldn't have received an explanation. It would be like if in the Dragon Age series you tried to explain why the Darkspawn try to kill everything... It just simply wouldn't work very well and would be entirely unnecessary.

#188
lofte_2000

lofte_2000
  • Members
  • 318 messages
A large part of the problem is that we have to assume a lot of things as the endings come to play and we're left with so many questions at the end that really should have been answered within.

#189
GdawgTuk

GdawgTuk
  • Members
  • 64 messages

lofte_2000 wrote...

A large part of the problem is that we have to assume a lot of things as the endings come to play and we're left with so many questions at the end that really should have been answered within.


Quite true. I don't mind having to make a tough choice on the fly based off little info up front, but I would only hope that I would see the outcome to my choice.

#190
SilentWolfie

SilentWolfie
  • Members
  • 202 messages
Despite the post from the DA guy, I just can't support Bioware anymore after buying DA2, ME3 and having both of them snubbed at me in some way.

DA 2 had serious lacks of choice making and there were plenty of flaws in the game. ME3 ending as you know, made it terribly unfulfilling.

*cough*



To yougottawanna, can I ask your opinion on this rewrite?



If I was to rewrite starchild, it would be

- Starchild = collection of scientists super long ago, had a war vs synthetics, created Reapers out of desperation with initial goal to defeat synthetics because organics were losing.
- Reapers = twisted collection of dead alien bodies and machinery, twisted logic of organics always creating synthetics, and therefore exacting order from chaos by removing the two parties. Gives back Sovereign a sense of "you don't understand my logic" too.
- Starchild had no time to create crucible, therefore ended up as catalyst, in hopes that future generations can successfully overcome Reapers by constructing it. Starchild congratulates Shephard for the gathering all the races, reaffirming the efforts to get there.
- Discussion between starchild and shephard, as well as providing Mass Relay technology and hospitable homeworlds so that no one will starve. Ultimately Shephard orders Joker to pick up allies and retreat to safety. Reaper starts to chase after Normandy, no choice but to run away.

Endings

- Destroy. Reaper goes boom boom pow.
- Orders. Shephard fixes Reapers logic and orders them to leave.
- Synthesis. Shephard makes everyone hybrid, Reapers no longer sees them as organics and synthetics, leaves.

In this way nobody hates starchild because of a ridiculous logic, Reaper gets explained, mystery of Mass Relays get written, understand why Joker is running, no mass genocides from Shephard, no starving. Most of the biggest plot holes get coherence and this even makes EMS more relevant (how fast/slow you get to meet crucible for high/low EMS). All the stuff you care about gets some feedback, and the extended endings are now more palatable.

PS: In fact only Reapers should be targeted, adding geth makes you want to add all sorts of machines into it. Including EDI and what not. So all the metal parts? Boom. Quarians die first soon because their life support system fails. Even sci fi should have some form of limit. Super quantum beams rewriting Reapers and ordering them to leave? My sense of disbelief refuses to be suspended.

Deus ex machina, maybe. All along the goal was to create crucible, so it isn't really something of a last minute thing, and all the efforts from distant past to current present, arriving at a certain future of hope.

Is that much better than the current ending, yougottawanna? (am seeking 'clarification' on [my] coherent writing skills.)

Modifié par SilentWolfie, 08 avril 2012 - 04:11 .


#191
Iwillbeback

Iwillbeback
  • Members
  • 1 902 messages
I seen it when it first came and I subscribed back then too.

#192
lofte_2000

lofte_2000
  • Members
  • 318 messages

GdawgTuk wrote...

lofte_2000 wrote...

A large part of the problem is that we have to assume a lot of things as the endings come to play and we're left with so many questions at the end that really should have been answered within.


Quite true. I don't mind having to make a tough choice on the fly based off little info up front, but I would only hope that I would see the outcome to my choice.


How else are we supposed to know if we've made the right decision or not or maybe that's the point? We don't know.  It feels like it's been left on a cliffhanger but then how long are we supposed to wait until we find out?  Are they ever going to tell us? We don't even know that.

#193
Helmchen2010

Helmchen2010
  • Members
  • 62 messages
My name is Commander Helmchen, and this is my favorite must-see video investigating what went wrong with ME3's ending. I sincerely hope ME3's writers will watch this.

#194
Colancio

Colancio
  • Members
  • 322 messages
Great video, I hope the BW team sees it and re-think their "artistic integrity"

#195
Versidious

Versidious
  • Members
  • 583 messages

Laurcus wrote...

For me. Having had time to reflect on the ending. I don't think I hate it as much as I thought I did.

Or rather, some of that hatred is misplaced. I really don't like the concept of the Crucible at all. It's kind of the obvious solution. Back before ME2 came out, I kind of knew it would happen. Or at least I suspected.

Really what made me expect it was Halo. Halo and Mass Effect both have a similar problem. They're sci-fi settings where the good guys are completely outmatched. And no matter how good any one individual soldier is, the enemy is too strong to defeat in a military engagement. In Halo, the problem of the Covenant was solved by the Flood. And the problem of the Flood was solved by Halo.

I realized BioWare had kind of written themselves into a corner. The Reapers were too powerful. They couldn't be defeated without some kind of trump card. And I knew, that if no significant advantage was gained in ME2, BioWare would have to use a Halo style weapon of mass destruction to defeat them. There just aren't many other options, and it's by far the easiest way to wrap of the series. And that last sentence may have been slightly more negative sounding than I meant. I don't mean to imply that BioWare took the easy way out.

I really didn't want to see a repeat of Halo though. And on one level, that's what we got with ME3. So part of my dislike of the ending is definitely just a dislike of the Crucible. So I guess part of it is just that the final story arc of ME just isn't to my tastes.

I've always been more of a fan of Dragonball Z, and stories like that. Where the heroes win through some kind of dramatic act of heroism in straight up combat. Shepard just isn't that kind of hero though, and Mass Effect isn't that kind of story.

I guess, I was hoping that the game would just end with some kind of colossal space battle, with Shepard taking out Harbinger on the ground. And EMS determines if you win the space battle, and if you do win how much you lose. I wanted something less philosophical and unknown, and more grounded in reality.


Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there. They wrote themselves into a bit of a corner with the Reapers, and that is largely because they didn't know what the hell they were doing when they started, which is always dangerous, especially if you are deliberately creating an extremely powerful enemy. But with Halo, I think Bungee knew exactly where they were going - the ingredients for the solution were all there right from the start. It wasn't a last minute deus ex machina, the point of the series *was* the Halo devices.

But there were other options to go with. Off the top of my head, using the Citadel itself against them directly, without introducing a new machine, could have worked quite well. It would have removed all the plot issues of the crucible, and allowed for several different ending scenarios based around retaking./defending the citadel. Whatsisface's scans from the first episode could play a part in moving this along, say in reprogramming the Keepers, and pretty much everything else could have worked in the same way. Involving the Citadel directly this way could also give you a good opportunity to have significant differences based on which council you have.

You could have the Reapers performing some mysterious function involving dark energy (Not Karpyshyn's plot route, but still, they brought it up, it would've been nice if it had been involved), which reveals a way to attack them that can only be coordinated and communicated because the Reapers haven't taken the citadel this cycle. Perhaps make the human Reaper from ME2 a useful way into the Reapers communications. Perhaps explore the 'first civilisation that the Reapers harvested', ruined on some planet somewhere, or 'the crypts of the beings of light' that now supposedly allude to the Catalyst. There are so many directions that could have been taken, but I think they just felt that the crucible was the safest and easiest solution to write. But again, if I had been writing the crucible, I would've written an entire act of trying to hunt down what the hell it is, because it really does feel too easy, too conveniant that in the 'small data cache' described in ME1 were the designs for the most powerful weapon ever conceived (I spent the entire game thinking 'This is obviously some sort of Reaper trap, when will we find that out?').

#196
Versidious

Versidious
  • Members
  • 583 messages

Nykara wrote...

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

Nykara wrote...

[...]

I understand that there are budget restrictions but heck I would have rathered pay an extra $10 or $20 for the game for it to be able to have had a third disk to include more game play, dialogue options with crew mates and love interests as well as better ending cinematics [...]


One could think that maybe theyre testing how far they can go to squeeze out your wallet. ME is perfect for is as you demonstrate. Players are so attached to it they'd swallow the greatest bull**** just to get what they want.


You know what? I live with a computer game programmer and believe it or not there are actually limits to what a budget can or can't do and still turn over some profit to those who run the show - it is afterall a business. Business doesn't make some profit there's nothing to pay the programmers. No programmers no games.


This. I'm OK with paying money for content. If they have to split a story up into different games to make enough money out of the game, I'm fine with that. I just wish they'd be honest about it.

#197
showes13

showes13
  • Members
  • 93 messages
Great video, just finished watching it. I hope Bioware sees it.

#198
alayyubi

alayyubi
  • Members
  • 134 messages
Someone put the link on RetakeME

#199
RollaWarden

RollaWarden
  • Members
  • 135 messages
I really connected with Mrbtongue's example of the Final Fantasy series.  Like Mr.b (the videos' creator), I played FF XII, loved every minute of it,  Since it was my first FF game, I went back and played every other FF game I could get my hands on.  Waited anxiously for FF XIII, got 1/2 through it, and was then so wearied with it that I quit.  Never went back to it.  Have NO interest in FF XIII-2.  And will likely not give a rip about any future FF titles.

My point is, I KNOW that I will now go that way with Bioware.  Loved ME2, but became concerned at all the DLC that was mlking my dollar.  Paid anyway.  Played DAII.  Enjoyed it, flaws and all, but worried about the flaws, and thought the DLC's were poorly written.  Uh oh.  Then ME3 and the endings.  As good as the game was, more felt rushed that didn't feel that way.  And the ending.  Well, we've certainly been all through the ending stuff.

Have already taken Mrbtongues's advice to pick up Witcher 2.  Waiting 8 days for its Xbox release.  And I GUARANTEE you that I'll wait, wait, wait, and watch the forums for REAL reviews on DAIII when it's released.

My point?  I haven't entirely given up on Bioware, but I"m cautious enough to not buy right away.  And if the DLC this summer stinks?  And reviews of DAIII are problematic?  Well, then bye, bye Bioware.  That's how it works, I'll bet, with many, many of us.

I'm really, really keeping my fingers crossed that the videos discussed in this thread reach the ME development team, and they watch MrB's videos--all of them--carefully and thoughtfully.  They should be REQUIRED viewing.before starting work with the summer DLC.

It's the 11th hour, Bioware.  You've dug this hole.  The posters in your own company's forum are offering a ladder.  Want to ask for it?  Or will you foolishly and subbornly think you can climb out of the hole yourselves?

#200
Whapa

Whapa
  • Members
  • 256 messages
This is AWESOME. I'd like to see a pro-ender make a video that explains what they think is good about the ending/game.