125 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

Hopefully this thread adds something useful to the autodialogue discussion.

I want to stress that my proposal requires no – zero, zilch, nada, 0 – changes to the story, plot, or even decision trees in dialogues, unless BioWare wants to do that of their own accord. I will not ask for any. This is strictly ‘cosmetic’, and in order to not affect those already happy with the level of autodialogue they get, these changes could be introduced in a “classic RPG” dialogue setting – there're different levels already anyway!

If you like these suggestions, please show your support by adding a comment…it'll give visibility.


There's a compiled list of suggestions at the bottom of this post, but first a little background:

I'd like to propose that BioWare include some dialogue enhancements in the Extended Cut. I think it would be relatively easy (inasmuch as anything about game development is) for a big gain with the roleplaying enthusiasts. I'd even go so far as to promise that the community could make a list of the various places where such changes, if that would make things easier.

There are two main categories of changes:

1. More dialogue wheel. There're already three levels of dialogue interaction, so adding a classic RPG/Story mode would work fine (or modifying an existing one, but that's not optimal). Ideally, I'd be able to select an option for each individual discussion segment or question, but just adding some would go a long way. There are some pretty long autodialogues that would definitely benefit from breaks.

I want to be really clear here: if there's a question to Shepard and the dialogue wheel pops up with just a single option instead of autodialoguing it, I'd love it. I just want to click on it. I mean it's better if there are actually multiple options, but even that's not necessary. I'm completely, 100%, serious. OK, I’m not entirely serious…but having multiple options that produce the same line of dialogue is fine, as the player still gets to ascribe tone to it via  the dialogue option.

No additional voice acting required, because the lines are all there. You'd just break them up. In some cases additional dialogue lines can be added by strictly reusing old lines, requiring no new ones (but this is not strictly necessary). Also, the people who are happier with fewer choices are unaffected as they can just use the existing modes. In many cases, if it seems that multiple slightly different options could work, they can map to the same spoken line (or existing lines can be reused).


2. Additional responses. In many cases in ME3, Shepard's roleplayability (and replayability) would benefit from an additional answer style (many of the dialogue wheels we do get even only have a Paragon/Renegade, no Neutral option). Again, there wouldn't be a need to add anything to the decision trees, it could just be mapping different statements to the same outcomes.

This is obviously more intensive, since it may require additional voice acting in some cases where existing or cut VA lines (from ME/ME2/ME3) can't be reused, but maybe it could be done along with the other possible VA work that will go into the Extended Cut and/or other DLC?

As an example, I and many others felt that many of Shepard's statements in ME3 were too Earth-centric. For some Shepards, it's out of character to be so gung ho about Earth rather than the entire galactic community. For others it's completely in character, and that's perfectly fine.

So, a good option would be to add additional dialogue options with a little more neutral statement: instead of the various ”we must save Earth because it's the home of humanity”-style statements, Shepard could say “we must concentrate on Earth because the Reapers are concentrating their forces there” or that it'd somehow be especially bad strategically for Earth to fall. Something more militarily oriented. Again, this would not need to affect gameplay in any way: it could be mapped to be the exact same, reaction-wise and for paragon/renegade, as if you'd argued using the pro-Earth statement. The important effect is the player's feeling of ownership over the character.


Please keep any plot-changing discussion elsewhere Also, when making suggestions about things to add/change, try to give as few spoilers as possible (although there seems to be plenty of spoiler content on General anyway…)

This thread has a general potential for spoilers even though attempt is made to be as inspecific as possible while still accurately pointing to the dialogue. You've been warned.

SPOILERS MAY EXIST IN THIS POST BELOW HERE, even though I try to keep them as vague as possible. Warning if you
absolutely don't want to risk it.

Divided into breaks and additions, listed in a somewhat chronological order (mainly differentiating between Priority missions only because the other order may vary, unless it's something that seems specific to a mission), grouped by location or person.


Dialogue Wheel/Break

• Vancouver
  • Add a dialogue wheel with a couple different wordings for “I'll return” (may all end up the same VA dialogue
    line).
  • Vega: wheels for the “we're leaving” and “without help, war is over” (see also Additional).
• Mars
  • Mission
    • Kaidan: add a wheel to either "OK" or to ask why about the radio (should be obvious to Shepard)
    • Shortwave: wheel on the answer.
    • Hologram: wheels for “what do you want”, “I've seen your solution”, “improved?”, and reason for keeping/abandoning base.
    • Vega: add wheel to either dress him down or not.
  • Debrief
    • Liara: wheel for using “major Alenko” or “Kaidan”
    • Liara: wheel for “will it get worse?”
    • Liara: wheel for “worth trying?” – needs a less confrontational option. (Can reuse lines)
• Normandy
  • Priority: Palaven
    • Cortez: Wheel for “shuttle pilot AND procurer?”
    • Vega: Response wheel to how the council went, and the follow-up question.
    • Vega: Response wheel to service records.
    • Vega dance: Paragon to blaming oneself.
    • Vega: Wheel for letting Lola go.
    • Adams: Wheel for “what're you doing here” and for asking Adams' opinion.
    • Traynor: Wheel for just to see how she was doing. The toothbrush response may seem a little harsh, maybe an “I see” wheel?
  • Post-Palaven
• EDI (AI Core): wheels for asking if EDI is around, whether she's still in the ship, whether she's going somewhere, and to not worry about the crew being wary. I think the latter three could be put in an investigate style wheel.
• EDI: response wheel for whether Shepard will answer questions (maybe yes/ask me later)
• Traynor: to “was it bad?”, response wheel for either talking about whether it was bad, or asking about EDI.
• Garrus: alternate response wheel to relating, w/o kid or about Victus.

[*] Post-Sur'Kesh

• EDI: wheel for Krogan breeding and related questions.
• Traynor: wheel/investigate option for asking how she's doing and how the systems are doing
• Eve: wheels for the responses to her.

[*] Post-Tuchanka

• Javik: Wheels for talk about prothean ability to read thing, and for evolution. Also for Liara. And about
  victory.

[*] Before Cerberus

• Javik: wheels for having something in common, and about Javik's reasons.

[*] (Timeframe needs to be determined)

• When speaking with Eng. Adams about plans, allow to explicitly agree (or disagree also, possibly).
• Kaidan: wheel on statements about “strength in camaraderie” and on “good to have you back”.

[/list][*] Citadel

• Initial visit.
  • Bailey: about Eclipse, should first have to trigger the conversation manually, and secondly not just say “it's classified” automatically
  • Bailey: wheel to whether offence taken about escorting nobs, also wheel for goodbye options.
  • Allers: add wheel to ask why Normandy, or just agree.
  • Council: Add a wheel to just accept the council not being able to help rather than insistently argue about
    Earth. (See also Additional.)
  • Udina: Add wheel to pick responses to “are they blind” and “playing politician in war” (See also Additional)
  • Khalisa, reporter: At Bailey's office, wheel to either say “maybe later” or just close the door on her.
  • Thane (Huerta): one or two initial wheels for the questions in the start, and for asking about his son.
• After Palaven, Sur'Kesh
  • Kaidan (Huerta): the conversation could be broken by one or two wheels, and there should be a direct answer to
    whether things are OK after Mars.
• Cerberus
  • Discussion with council needs two wheels for the responses without.
• (Timeframe needs to be determined)
  • Add wheels to prompts/questions when speaking to Joker in Purgatory.
  • Din Korlack, both for the entry (just a reused “stop!”, maybe?), and for the conversation.
  • Garrus at the shuttle cars: add a wheel at the docks and one or two in the sequence topside.
  • Cortez, wheel when the Turian ship is first mentioned, and then again when he mentions the wall.
  • Cortez at the Wall: add wheel for the first comfort statement (maybe needs additional?)
  • Discussing the departing Balak with officer Noles needs a wheel for Shepard's lines.
  • Javik, wheel on the response to query about races sharing power.
  • Miranda's holomessage: one wheel before the question about her father, and two for the responses after that. And one for the departing line. (See also Additional.)
  • Jacob: wheel on Crucible progress, on the family information, and on the name question.

[*] Tuchanka

• Turians
  • Victus replies needs at least 3-4 dialogue wheels or ren/para breaks.
  • Debrief: needs 1 wheel for Hackett, and 2 for the Primarch.
  • Debrief: wheel for response to Wrex.
• Bomb
  • Debrief: Garrus needs a wheel.
  • Debrief: Hackett needs 2 wheels.
  • Debrief: Wrex/Victus needs response wheels.
• Shroud
  • Debrief: Responses about sleeping to Garrus need a decision wheel.
• Post-mission
  • Salarian: wheel for first response.

[*] Priority: Palaven

• Wheel for choice between situation on the ground and asking about the primarch.
• Wheel for getting the tower vs. investigate.
• Garrus: wheel for asking about Victus (along with maybe another greeting thing, how've you been etc.)
• Joker: wheel for responding “can this wait” vs. “go ahead”
• Vega: wheel for how the summit will work and how easy it is or isn't.
• Victus: two wheels for going off-planet, and the summit.
• Victus: maybe persuasion for rallying his support.
• Garrus: wheels for whether it's possible to win w/o Victus, and giving it the best shot.
• Victus: wheel for “need Krogans” to go with default, or indicate you might know “someone” if Wrex is alive.
• Debrief
• Wheel for issues being old, and making the case for the krogans.

[*] Sur'Kesh

• Debrief
• Mordin: open a wheel one or two responses earlier when asking about the timeframe.
• Victus: pressuring on the turian ship should have additional wheel.
• Wrex: wheel for response about “female ideas”

[*] Cerberus Lab

• Jacob: introducing to the doctor: wheel to ask about ex-ness right away.
• Jacob: wheel to ask about wound when he's going upstairs.
• Upstairs: interject immediately when Brynn mentions refugees.
• Jacob, med-bay: wheel on both questions about roof.
• Brynn: wheel to whether pro/anti Cerberus existence is strange.
• Upon returning dowstairs, wheels for inquiry about chances, and for Jacob's opinion.
• Post-mission: wheel on question about joining.

[*] Quarians

• Initial meeting
  • Add a “WTF?!” interjection upon being informed of the new development (could also be P/R trigger? See also Additional.)
• Geth Dreadnaught Debriefing
  • Needs several wheels for responses and questions if Shepard is upset.
• Geth Server (and Debrief)
  • wheel for responding OK to enter.
  • wheel right at the start for response in debriefing.
• Koris (and Debrief)
  • Saving: wheel on “we've got to go”
  • Saving Debrief: wheel on first and last statements.
• Geth Base
  • Add response wheels for initial conversation with Legion.
  • Big Fight: wheels for “pull over” and Normandy's weaponry.
• After Geth Base on the Cliff
  • Wheel for “Do We Deserve Death?
  • Charm/Paragon option to rally needs one or two wheels.
  • Response to property question needs a wheel.

[*] Monastery

• Mission
  • Wheel to ask about whether trying to kill or save. (The answer can be same.)
  • There should be a wheel in the response before the paragon interrupt, in the end sequence.
• Debriefing w/ Asari Ambassador
  • Wheel to ask about the Catalyst.

[*] Thessia

• Normandy
  • When Liara demands to go, add wheel with “OK”, “Are you sure”, and maybe a “You shouldn't” (but the result is
    always the same).
• Thessia
  • Kurin says they're leaving needs a wheel or interrupt to tell them no.
  • The holoball sequence could maybe use one or two response wheels.
• Debriefing
  • Tali: add wheel on the response about doubts.

[*] Horizon

• Sanctuary
  • H. Lawson: add a wheel for both responses.
  • Miranda: add wheels for the “I understand”, “can stop running”, “thanks”, and “what's next?”
• Debriefing
  • Add wheel to select whether intel was or was not worth it. (Same result either way.)

[*] Cerberus

• Pre-mission
  • EDI: Wheel for either asking for reason, or saying OK right away. (Same result.)
• Mission
  • VI: Wheel for querying about Catalyst.

[*] London

• Pre-mission
• Mission
  • Reaper: add active prompt to ask for Normandy's targeting.

[/list]
Additional Dialogue Options

• Vancouver
  • Vega: Maybe slightly less confrontational and more explanatory lines for reason for leaving.
• Mars
  • After crash, yell if the affected are OK (especially LI if any), they say yes.
• Tuchanka
  • If you've concealed a secret until the last minute, option to say you're
    sorry, but you couldn't risk discussing it in front of the others.
  • Earlier decision points about the secret, also show the neutral option
    “wait until you can speak privately”.
• Post-mission, speaking to Hackett after Salarian: ask about Udina. (No effect).
• Citadel
  • Council: Alternative arguments for the council to help instead of just “But it's Earth!”. “Reapers are concentrated, we should concentrate too”.
  • Udina: Add more options to the initial “are they blind” and “playing politician in war” comments after the council
    visit. Some Shepards would understand.
  • Hit on Joker in jest in Purgatory.
  • Upon speaking to Kaidan, mention that he also had his gun…
  • Miranda's holomessage could use some variant answers. Should be able to reuse lines at least for the farewell.
• Palaven
  • Debrief
    • Summit: Genophage: convince by pointing out that Wrex is a special case (no effect, just additional)
• Quarians
  • Additional questions in the vein of “WhoTF thought this was a good idea?” in the initial meetup.

Changes

• 4/27 Citadel.
• 4/22 Post-Sur'Kesh.
• 4/22 Post-Palaven.
• 4/21 Palaven.
• 4/18 Pre-Palaven.
• 4/16 A couple post-Tuchanka Citadel/Normandy.
• 4/15 Tuchanka.
• 4/13 Citadel (initial)
• 4/13 Mars.
• 4/13 Cerberus, Earth.
• 4/12 Horizon.
• 4/12 Thessia.
• 4/12 Monastery, Asari Ambassador, Cortez, Vancouver.
• 4/10 Spoiler cleanup, Rannoch additions, Cortez.
• 4/9 A few Citadel, Normandy, and Quarian additions, cleanup.
• 4/8 Initial.

Modifié par lillitheris, 20 juin 2012 - 08:36 .

[Eclipse merc]

I don't think there will be any voice acting in extended cut. I could be wrong though.

[lillitheris]

Eclipse merc wrote...

I don't think there will be any voice acting in extended cut. I could be wrong though.

I'm pretty sure they said they were adding more VA. Kinda have to, for anything meaningful, unless they happen to have tons of material that they cut.

But I admit, it definitely is a step beyond just adding extra dialogue wheeling as far as resources required. I'd be happy with just that, and 2. would be an awesome bonus.

[jbadm04]

beside of other problems I have with the ME3 ending, I see no problems with this so called "lack of dialogue options"... what is this all about? You actualy ever played ME1 and 2?

WHen there is something important to discuss with an NPC, I get 3-5 dialogue options (like in ME1/2), that lead to 1-3 new options that can lead to another 1-3 options.

If there are decisions to make, I have the regular 2 "white" standard options and paragon/renegade (depending on fame). Whats the problem here?

And to this autolines, I got sick to go thorugh the whole dialogue wheel of a squadmate to see if s/he got anything new to say (during me1/2... SHepard/Wrex/SHepard/Wrex is kinda funny, but at some point its just annoying). NOw I just have to pass by and "activate" and see what happens. Autodialogue? Who cares, do you realy want to pamper EDI and her ton of "nice" but "useless" comments? The same to questgivers, I pass by, catch the quest, finish it, and say the questgiver where to pick it up, there is not more to say, deal with it?

I see no problem with "autodialogue".

[lillitheris]

jbadm04 wrote...

beside of other problems I have with the ME3 ending, I see no problems with this so called "lack of dialogue options"... what is this all about? You actualy ever played ME1 and 2?

Yes. I've actually replayed through ME, ME2 and now in ME3 again in the last 3 weeks or so. It's very noticeable for me.

I see no problem with "autodialogue".

OK, that's fine! If you're happy with the level that you get now, you can just stick with the current mode and nothing changes for you. That's the awesome part.

[lillitheris]

Ah, yes, forgot to write example cases for additional options:

Personally, I felt that many of Shepard's statements in ME3 were too Earth-centric. For me – and many others – it's out of character for Shepard to be so gung ho about Earth rather than the entire galactic community. For others it's completely in character, and that's perfectly fine.

So, a good option would be to add additional dialogue options with a little more neutral statement: instead of the various ”we must save Earth because it's the home of humanity”-style statements, Shepard could say “we must concentrate on Earth because the Reapers are concentrating their forces there” or that it'd somehow be especially bad strategically for Earth to fall. Something more militarily oriented.

Again, this would not need to affect gameplay in any way: it could be mapped to be the exact same, reaction-wise and for paragon/renegade, as if you'd argued using the pro-Earth statement.

The important effect is the player's feeling of ownership over the character.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

I support that.
Even if its only cosmetic, without actual story changes, I'd prefer to play my Shepard forced by circumstances instead of having to pick from like 2 Bioware's Shepards forced on me.

[The Razman]

We know they already recorded more lines than they included in the finished product, so more dialogue options or extended dialogues in that final scene is most likely.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

I think OP didn't mean only final scene though. Neither do I.
You can't help that notice ME3 a lot more pruned dialog trees, especially compared to ME1

[lillitheris]

The Razman wrote...

We know they already recorded more lines than they included in the finished product, so more dialogue options or extended dialogues in that final scene is most likely.

That's true, definitely, there could even be material already. Plus the written dialogue doesn't need to correspond 1:1 so they might have some items that are close enough even without re-recording.

[Red Dust]

answers.yahoo.com/question/index 

[antony1197]

I approve

[Guldhun2]

You really think BiowareEA is going to add Voice Acting throughout the entire game for an extended cut version? EA has never done that, and never will.

[lillitheris]

Guldhun2 wrote...

You really think BiowareEA is going to add Voice Acting throughout the entire game for an extended cut version? EA has never done that, and never will.

Honestly? Not really, but I don't think a reasonable amount of additional lines would be out of the question when they're adding VA anyway. (Or lines that were already recorded but were discarded for whatever reason.)

Like I said, I understand that it's basically an order of magnitude bigger in terms of implementation; I'd be happy with just the additional wheel-clicking, but one can always hope!

[lillitheris]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

I think OP didn't mean only final scene though. Neither do I.
You can't help that notice ME3 a lot more pruned dialog trees, especially compared to ME1

Correct, yes, I do indeed mean throughout! It seems to get worse as the game progresses.

[lillitheris]

If anyone feels like tracking points in their game where additional dialogue breaks or more dialogue options would work, feel free to add them here.

SPOILER (Additional) If you've concealed sabotage until the last minute, option to say you're sorry, but you couldn't risk discussing it in front of the others. In fact, the earlier decision points could also use the neutral option “wait until you can speak privately”.

[BatmanPWNS]

The autodialogues are a crime to any renegade player it's so sad.

[lillitheris]

SPOILER: (Dialogue Break) Upon trying to release the Eclipse leader, should first have to trigger the conversation manually, and secondly not just say “it's classified” automatically.

(Dialogue Break): Add breaks when speaking to Joker in the Purgatory bar.
(Additional Option): Hit on Joker in jest only.

SPOILER: (Additional or Break): Upon speaking to Kaidan, mention that he also had his gun drawn…

Modifié par lillitheris, 09 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[lillitheris]

Possible Citadel SPOILERS, though I try to keep these vague.

(Dialogue Break): Din Korlack, both for the entry (just a reused “stop!”, maybe?), and for the conversation.

(Dialogue Break): When speaking with Eng. Adams about plans, allow to agree (or disagree also, possibly).

(Dialogue Break): Add a wheel when you talk to Garrus at the shuttles in the Citadel, and one or two in the sequence topside.

(Dialogue Break): Cortez, break when the Turian ship is first mentioned, and then again when he mentions the wall.

(Dialogue Break): Discussing batarian Balak with officer Noles needs a wheel for Shepard.

Modifié par lillitheris, 09 avril 2012 - 03:20 .

[lillitheris]

SPOILERS.

(Dialogue Break): Javik, on the response to query about races sharing power.

(Dialogue Break(s)): Miranda's holomessage: one break before the question about her father, and two for the responses after that. And one for the departure.

(Additional Options): Some variant answers for Miranda's holomessage. Should be able to reuse lines at least for the departure.

(Dialogue Break): Jacob: introducing to the Dr. Ask about ex-ness right away, also one about the wound. Upstairs, interjection about family should break.


Edit: I'll start collecting these to the top…

Modifié par lillitheris, 09 avril 2012 - 08:51 .

[lillitheris]

Added a few more and collected in first post.

[SynheKatze]

I made a post about this not long ago:

We all know the dialogue options have been reduced, no more neutral options (a lost oportunity, given the new morality sistem), less investigate options (which I think is fine, since, even if reduced, you can get a decent briefing of the situation without affecting the flow of the conversation), but, the worst thing is the reduced number of prompts. That reduced number of prompts creates smaller variation (thus making the dialogue tedius after the third go) and restricts our chances to flesh out our character.

All of this has been discussed before, and given how much I dislike redundancy, I'll give it a new approach: the lost chances. Yeah, lost chances, often, when you choose a dialogue options we know Shepard will go on and on, but have you noticed how many differences there are between picking R or P? I'll give you and example, and I can tell you this happens A LOT MORE than I expected.

Take, for example you pick a renegade option, and Shepard and the NPC begin talking, and let's say Shepard says three sentences (automatically,of course) , it goes like this:

SRR-NPCATR-SRR-NPCATR-SRR-NPCATR.

*SRR= Shepard's renegade response. NPCATR= NPC's answer to renegade.

And if you pick a paragon approach, it goes like this.

SPR-NPCATP-SPR-NPCATR-SPP-NPCATP

*SPR= Shepard's paragon response. NPCATR= NPC's answer to paragon.

Meaning, that unlike in most of the previous game's, when Shepard says a sentence, she gets different responses from the NPC, instead of a somewhat common filler. We've gotta admit that the differences aren't really that wild or drastic, but hell, it's a difference. Now let's get back to the point: doing some simple math you will realize that the game in it's current state only allows for two different ways to continue the conversation, but if there were promps to every one of Shepard's answers we would EIGHT different conversations. Much more flexible, much more varied, much less boring and more importantly, rpgish. For example, we could have, based only in Shepard's answers:

SPR-NPCATP-SRR-NPCATR-SPP-NPCATP
SRR-NPCATR-SPR-NPCATP-SPR-NPCATP
SPR-NPCATR-SRR-NPCATR-SRR-NPCATR

... and we could go on until we got the eight total, and real variations to the conversation, just following that simple model.

The point of this post is to catch your attention, and then, if enough people cares, catch BW's attention and make them work their asses a little. Because of the following reasons:

1) The have a solid base.
2) They could implement it into the game without going through many hardships (as what is crucial for this to work is ALREADY in the game.
3) It would be a vast improvement over the current state, giving us the chance to feel more in control of our Shepards and the way we wanted to shape through the entire franchise.
4) This would add to the game's RPG elements and will not squander the magnificent work made by the writers.

I hope some of you pay the attention it deserves. Thank you if you've read this far.

[ADDENDUM] Some people are questioning the economical or financial viability of the changes suggested in this thread. I guess that is due to some lack of exposition on my ideas, so I will try and clarify this.

I don't want the dialogue wheel to be everywhere and in every interaction with the characters, I know, that given the current structure of the game, going back is nearly impossible. However, I think it'd be VERY possible to add prompts to those conversations that require the use of the dialogue wheel from the very beginning. And that, I think, is viable economically without much effort, it'd only be using the senteces already existing in the game and then give us the choice to tell Shepard what to say. I don't want them to add more content, more dialogue lines or develop different conversations. I just want more control over the ones that already exist, nothing more.

You're not alone on this :c

[lillitheris]

Excellent info and thinking there, thank you. If you have any specific cases to add to the list, it'd be great – or, if you have examples of conversations where the pattern you describe works very well, we could open a third ‘category’ of dialogue changes with that info.

[SynheKatze]

I remember that the first conversation with Tali in the Normandy (the one in which you invited her to your quarters) follows this pattern to an extent. Also, the first conversation with TIM in Mars does this, for example, when he says:

-Shepard, don't interfere with my plans. I won't warn you again.

If you chose paragon before he even says that (in the previous prompt), she will automatically say: 'Dully noted'.
However, if you chose renegade, she will automatically say: 'Go to hell!'

In both cases you do not get to select what she's going to say, and it's determined on what you chose a pair of phrases ago.

Modifié par SynheKatze, 09 avril 2012 - 12:36 .