36 réponses à ce sujet

[byzantine horse]

Disregarding which "kind of combat" either game represents, I just want combat that feels engaging, interactive and visceral. It doesn't have to be dumbed down, easy or stupid to achieve that. Nor does it have to be boring, slow or static (though if you fail very badly it can be all of those things > ).

I don't think either game was easy. No I'm not mentally challenged but I never found the Dragon Age combat as easy. Dragon Age 2 was mostly stressful (which isn't inherently bad) while Origins made me feel more like an armchair general (which isn't inherently bad either). I don't want either specifically, while Dragon Age 2 made me feel involved (which Origins failed at) it was too stressful and it was a bit sterile if you will. Origins on the other hand made me feel uninvolved, even if I had control, and was a bit boring after 30+ hours. It felt like KotOR to some extent which has really boring combat (though is excellent in every other way).

I won't (because I can't) say exactly how I hope DA3 will be. I am not a designed and trying to be one won't do my ideas or wishes justice. I just want to feel involved and engaged which I don't think either of the two games fully did. Dragon Age 2 was visceral (as were the cutscene kills in Origins) but it went too far in everything exploding. Wait scratch that, that isn't visceral that is stupid. I don't want stupid combat in the game.

So a run down:
1. Slow combat down from DA2 and scale it up from DAO.
2. Make it more visceral than DAO and more realistic than DA2.
3. Make combat more responsive. DA2 succeeded here but was marred by other issues.
4. Make enemy placement and number realistic/heroic. It isn't heroic to slash down 20 nutjobs with pitchforks just because you can. I would rather feel like the enemies I fight can hold their own, just like any of my companions can. Enemies should feel individually dangerous rather than numerous.

[Dragoonlordz]

byzantine horse wrote...

So a run down:
1. Slow combat down from DA2 and scale it up from DAO.
2. Make it more visceral than DAO and more realistic than DA2.
3. Make combat more responsive. DA2 succeeded here but was marred by other issues.
4. Make enemy placement and number realistic/heroic. It isn't heroic to slash down 20 nutjobs with pitchforks just because you can. I would rather feel like the enemies I fight can hold their own, just like any of my companions can. Enemies should feel individually dangerous rather than numerous.

I see nothing wrong really with this. But I do think some changes could be made to make it better.

5. Less painted on blood where always felt in same locations blood splatters.

6. Less Ninjutsu. Felt out of place in DA2 universe and I know they had closing gap issue but there are better ways around it using tactics and planning. Someone with a bow cannot hit you when behind a rock or around a corner, they only have so many arrows so they will have to come down or around to get better shot or when run out of arrows. A caster should have limited mana pool like a gun running low on ammo there will be a chance for attack.

7. No lego parts style explosions, if parts are to be chopped off make it matter which part you hit and only that part cut. If you slash someones arm why did their head, both legs and both arms fly off. Even in a fantasy world it was taken too far hence the term lego explosions. A little more realism would not hurt.

Lastly elucidating enemy placement and difficulty I already addressed in the past when said...

The 'reinforcement' system should not be used unless your being pitted against an army or vast battlefield, including 'some' boss based battles. The 'wave' or reinforcement system should not be used for every single fight ever in games. It's unrealistic and tedious. The teleporting should be left for mages and spirits and even then through animations that can attribute to casting a teleportation spell else just use the doors and such like supposed to when entering or exiting a place.

There is no real tactical use for implementing the kind of waves in DA2. When applying tactics the enemies must be using clear shown tactics in how came into the battle such as stage by stage type evolution of reinforcement (archers, warriors, casters etc minor and major mobs timed and more exaclty location based different approaches for units and mobs) and not willy nilly drop and spank method using completley random placement and units. Most battles should have set placements (static mobs) amount of units while the major battles (story and location based) should apply reinforcements method only (even then using real tactics to approach not just dropping in random units at random places). That is what I would like to see.

If it comes down to applying difficulty to the combat you improve the tactics using much better implementation of reinforcements AND more to my liking is the DAO approach of to make progression harder through the game via varying strength between different mob types and not auto leveling of all mobs to match your own level regardless of unit type. 

Not a wave system on every fight to make up for lack of difficulty. Bring in new unit types as progress, stronger specific units as the game progresses while keeping the older models and units weak as you out level them, more cannon fodder to back up the new stronger ones as progress in battles as opposed to linking the weak random bandits to your maximum level hero's.

I believe they took some feedback into account with DLC they produced for DA2, I have yet to play through them myself but I think they went part way in the right direction from what read. I plan to try them out when get around to it myself in near future.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 avril 2012 - 09:58 .

[sea-]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If you can roleplay, then the game is an RPG.

Alan Wake is an RPG because you can roleplay as Alan?

Microsoft Flight Simulator is an RPG because you can roleplay as a pilot?

Forza 3 is an RPG becaues you can roleplay as a driver?

Tiger Woods PGA Tour is an RPG because you can roleplay a caddy?

Chess is an RPG because you can roleplay a battlefield commander?

Guess Who is an RPG because you can roleplay as one of the characters on the game board?

Batman: The Animated Series is an RPG because you can roleplay as Robin?

Scrubbing Bubbles is an RPG because you can roleplay as a bottle of soap?

Modifié par sea-, 09 avril 2012 - 09:33 .

[cJohnOne]

sea- wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If you can roleplay, then the game is an RPG.

Alan Wake is an RPG because you can roleplay as Alan?

Microsoft Flight Simulator is an RPG because you can roleplay as a pilot?

Forza 3 is an RPG becaues you can roleplay as a driver?

Tiger Woods PGA Tour is an RPG because you can roleplay a caddy?

Chess is an RPG because you can roleplay a battlefield commander?

Guess Who is an RPG because you can roleplay as one of the characters on the game board?

Batman: The Animated Series is an RPG because you can roleplay as Robin?

Scrubbing Bubbles is an RPG because you can roleplay as a bottle of soap?

Pretty much yes that is role playing to me.

[Maria Caliban]

I like to role-play when I play Civilization V. I try to imagine how various leaders would plan out their civilizations and react to what's happening 'in character.'

It's not an RPG, but I am role-playing. Likewise, I can have both action and adventure in non Action-Adventure games. Or have puzzles in non-Puzzle games.

[Dragoonlordz]

sea- wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If you can roleplay, then the game is an RPG.

Alan Wake is an RPG because you can roleplay as Alan?

Microsoft Flight Simulator is an RPG because you can roleplay as a pilot?

Forza 3 is an RPG becaues you can roleplay as a driver?

Tiger Woods PGA Tour is an RPG because you can roleplay a caddy?

Chess is an RPG because you can roleplay a battlefield commander?

Guess Who is an RPG because you can roleplay as one of the characters on the game board?

Batman: The Animated Series is an RPG because you can roleplay as Robin?

Scrubbing Bubbles is an RPG because you can roleplay as a bottle of soap?

Any game where play in the role of another person, protaganist can be called role playing. However this is not to be confused with role playing games tend to be based on role playing 'elements' and gameplay 'mechanics'. Elements and mechanics for the purpose of expanding the title into a more complex and enhanced experience. Think customisation from equipment, skills, appearance, voice and choices the ability to shape the persona of your character and alter the progression of the story are role playing elements within a game that has the user playing the role of a character. Those mechanics and elements define the genre.

It is the importation and exportation of those elements between titles that has diluted the genres. It is not something I like or look forward to as the industry becomes nothing more than blended soup of lost identity. The player no longer can make a choice of the things they enjoy because they all become a mix and match of random elements like a person who orders tomato soup and get tomato, steak and peanut butter soup all in the same bowl.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 avril 2012 - 10:23 .

[sickpixie]

sea- wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If you can roleplay, then the game is an RPG.

Alan Wake is an RPG because you can roleplay as Alan?

Microsoft Flight Simulator is an RPG because you can roleplay as a pilot?

Forza 3 is an RPG becaues you can roleplay as a driver?

Tiger Woods PGA Tour is an RPG because you can roleplay a caddy?

Chess is an RPG because you can roleplay a battlefield commander?

Guess Who is an RPG because you can roleplay as one of the characters on the game board?

Batman: The Animated Series is an RPG because you can roleplay as Robin?

Scrubbing Bubbles is an RPG because you can roleplay as a bottle of soap?

Any game that gives you multiple options for defining your character's personality and also acknowledges those decisions (even just superficially, as Bioware usually does) is a role playing game. I enjoy tabletop simulators too but they're not the end-all be-all and we've had a decade of awkwardness because so many developers choose to uphold RPG audience expectations and ideas of how RPGs "should" be over the actual playing experience.

[Kileyan]

StElmo wrote...

I actually want DA3 to be more action oriented (not clickfest like DA2) but actually with the strategic Pause>Tactics>Play mechanics of a Mass Effect game.

I want full control over my character, and I would love to see a power wheel/power bar type mass effect dealie.

I wouldn't mind a birds eye view for commanding followers on PC too, but my main problem is that DA2 (what I have played of it) is very clicky and chaotic.

Think of this as a good scenario for DA3:

The player character (lets presume they are using a sword and shield) can "Strike" "Power Strike" "Block" and "Bash" - this would make up the real time weapon combat (maybe with some dodge moves for good measure). Then you have "Powers" like in ME1 2 3, where you can use the power wheel/bar to send off spells, special moves (like charge) and swap out potion and weapon powers.

Meanwhile, your followers are all commanded from the power wheel or birds eye view (depending on whatever system you are on)

Powers, moves and other things shouldn't be stripped down for this system to work, simply apply full control to the player character and allow for a more accessible pause system.

I don't like to feel as if I am playing WoW.

IMHO, to put it simply, I'd like the return of the overhead tactical view and slow the action down to about 60 percent of the DA2 combat speed. Plenty fast enough to feel the impact of actions, but not a click fest. I like the better mobility of DA2's combat, just thought it was a bit too fast.

Ideally why not just give us a slider or option setting to slow down or speed up the combat speed to our liking. Bad in the old days, it was almost a standard for many turn based games to have a speed setting for combats and such, we aren't talking crazy new technology.

[Tsuki-san16]

I really liked the changes they made to combat in DA2, Especially for rogues, which I found painful to play in DA:O (thank you for not making archers carry arrows anymore!). I would absolutely HATE it if they made it a tactical RPG. I don't want to sit and input commands and then watch them play out, I like feeling like I'm in the midst of battle hacking and slashing and burning my way through enemies. I don't like strategy all that much, I just wanna play.

Of course, I know not everyone agrees with me on this.

I will say DA2 had some flaws, definitely, but I don't get why people are hating on it so much. I enjoyed it a lot.

P.S. If DA3 doesn't let my character talk and have a personality, I'm gonna be pissed.

[Sir Caradoc]

I don't understand this desire to design every rpg out there to be action focused

What did happen to combat strategy? Things like

-Positioning your party members in different kind of attack or defence formations
-Scouting areas ahead, discovering enemy positions and planning your next action. Perhaps setting up ambushes on your own and luring enemies on them or doing full frontal assault from 2 different directions? Rogue discovering a hidden path straight into enemy base while warriors and mages give the guards a proper distraction..
-Using each party member's skills and abilities cleverly to overcome the impossible odds.
-Using high ground or other type of terrain for your party's advantage.
-Sneaking past enemy ambushes and avoiding combat altogether
-Stealth killing important enemies before the attack
-Using traps, poisons, bombs, potions etc
-Building blockades and barricades
-Spells that disable and weaken foes, counterspells, spell combinations

Just few examples. Make each combat encounter somewhat meaningfull. Don't just throw enemies from the sky. And slow the pace of combat and get rid of the ninja rogues. Combat should feel realistic and painfull at all times.

Modifié par Sir Caradoc, 10 avril 2012 - 01:38 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

^ you'd hate it if they made DA a 'tactical RPG'?

It IS a tactical RPG! What do you think you're playing? And you wanna 'hack and slash' through battle? I bet you wanna see explosions and female NPC's with J-cups too right? God, I wanna throw up. This is a prime example of what was caught in the net of DA2 that Laidlaw through out. Plenty of FPS and war games out there, but you still demand that RPGS be dumbed down as well so you can mash through a game.

[RockSW]

i liked hitting a button for every strike, just wish i hadn't spent 7 years in kirkwall