218 réponses à ce sujet

[abaris]

bigbade wrote...

 Seriously, Priestly is a moderator and thus I feel it is normal he doesn't take partake in conversation and simply moderates. Stanley Woo, although not a designated moderator, likes to do the same which is fine.

They can't talk because we're actually talking about a multi million business that is part of a shareholder corporation. Everything they say would be perceived as an official statement. The PR and press department filters every information that's coming from EA or Bioware and that's absolutely usual procedure.

[Erixxxx]

Xrissie wrote...

You scared them away.

[bigbade]

abaris wrote...

bigbade wrote...

 Seriously, Priestly is a moderator and thus I feel it is normal he doesn't take partake in conversation and simply moderates. Stanley Woo, although not a designated moderator, likes to do the same which is fine.

They can't talk because we're actually talking about a multi million business that is part of a shareholder corporation. Everything they say would be perceived as an official statement. The PR and press department filters every information that's coming from EA or Bioware and that's absolutely usual procedure.

Since you only quoted that part, I don't expect Priestly/Woo to partake in discussion because their job is to moderate.

If you meant the whole lot, well I don't think that's true. The PR filters yes sure, but again Gaider's constant posting in the DA forums aren't interpreted as OFFICIAL EA statements. 

Besides, it's nothing a "disclaimer: this is my opinion" can't fix. A DA team member did that earlier today and expressed his views of the ending. 

Sure that disclaimer could be removed by people who want to purposelly twist words, but someone will always call them out on it. 

[abaris]

bigbade wrote...


If you meant the whole lot, well I don't think that's true. The PR filters yes sure, but again Gaider's constant posting in the DA forums aren't interpreted as OFFICIAL EA statements. 

I don't think, he says anything that didn't go through the channels before posting it.

It is absolutely usual procedure that any given corporation speaks with one voice although that voice may disguise itself as some individual.

You know it's true when you work for a corporation. Or if you're working at some place and get the sack over a facebook post. Speaking your mind isn't what corporate life is all about and I wouldn't expect it to be.

In fact, you will notice that moderators are more open to enter a discussion. But not the developer moderators, since they are in fact employees of Bioware and/or EA.

[bigbade]

Amioran wrote...

Maybe they don't do it now because the heat is a little too much.

Maybe they don't do it now because it is futile (as it is).

Maybe they don't do it now because 95% of people here pretend to speak of things they know almost nothing about as if they are the best experts in the world.

In the DA2 forums at beginning devs replied very sparsely for the same exact reasons. Then, when the heat subsided, trolls did go away, people that remained were those that could really help somewhat, only then they began engaging actively on the discussion.

Do you find that illogical?

Also requoting this because this actually lists everything wrong with the situation:

1) The heat is too much, yes, I agree. Do you think it will die down if they remain silent? No. The most they will manage to do is lose customers because 1/10 of the people here claiming "I'm never buying Bioware" WILL actually go through with it. Sure it's a small number, but their rep gets hurt in the process. Less questions would generate less heat, less questions is achieved through more answers.

2) Complete opposite, almost every thread that spawns is questions. Questions, questions, questions. And then more questions. If they answered there wouldn't be questions to ask. 

3) Generalizing. Loud dumb people doesn't make them more numerous than the modest helpful ones. I click through a bunch of threads every day and usually go by thread title to see if it'll be interesting, maybe 1/5 fails to deliver every time. There's lots of good discussion going on and it's very easy to avoid the crappy kind.

4) DA2 forums erupted because the whole GAME didn't live up to expectations (to say the least). People weren't asking questions apart from "what the **** happened?". That's not a question that can really be answered, the ones we're asking are.
 

[BrookerT]

slyguy200 wrote...

Navasha wrote...

What exactly would they say? Nearly everything game related would have to be cleared through channels.

Besides, I have seen how many in this community beat down and belittle even fans who disagree with their opinions. I can't imagine any Dev would want to subject themselves willingly to the "open season" posting in here would be.

They are not ripped apart there falsifications/facts are corrected/proved, devs just don't like to be shown up.

Your both right, David Gaider and Patrick Weeks are misquoted a lot, but people like casey and mac don't like being shown up.

[bigbade]

abaris wrote...

bigbade wrote...


If you meant the whole lot, well I don't think that's true. The PR filters yes sure, but again Gaider's constant posting in the DA forums aren't interpreted as OFFICIAL EA statements. 

I don't think, he says anything that didn't go through the channels before posting it.

It is absolutely usual procedure that any given corporation speaks with one voice although that voice may disguise itself as some individual.

You know it's true when you work for a corporation. Or if you're working at some place and get the sack over a facebook post. Speaking your mind isn't what corporate life is all about and I wouldn't expect it to be.

In fact, you will notice that moderators are more open to enter a discussion. But not the developer moderators, since they are in fact employees of Bioware and/or EA.

Good point, but I'm not even asking for their opinion, I'm asking for their answers. They made this game and it's universe, and therefore story/game related questions aren't something EA would necesarilly want to keep out. I don't think EA even cares about the ME universe a part from the cash it brings in. Now if people were to ask about resource limitations, time constraints, EA "overlords" and all that, then I would never expect an honest answer unless he was my best friend and came over for a BBQ to **** about his work.

Modifié par bigbade, 08 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[Amioran]

bigbade wrote...
In any case, they shouldn't be SAYING we are the co-authors if they don't want us to take it literally, in fact the same thing applies with the ending if it turns out to not be something to take at face value.

Oh, c'mon, don't play the card of the ingenuous. Everyone with at last a minimal IQ can understand that a thing as that is said as a way to thank the fans and to express their gratitude (or similar things) not certainly as a literal affirmation of co-authorship.

That's just twisting words to have a point in something that cannot have any otherwise (as in pretending them to change their work to please your pow).

bigbade wrote...
Some people read what's in front of them and don't feel like looking beyond that, that's just the way some people work.

Then it's not the fault Bioware but of those people. If you are an idiot that if someone say to you something like "oh, go shot yourself" (as a way to say "go away, don't bother me anymore") and you literally take a gun and shot yourself do you think the one that said that it is to blame for something?

bigbade wrote...
I know they've adopted a lot of complaints I read about in ME2/ME1 forums, and I never claimed they weren't listening, but some, like me, are genuinely interested in their replies/ points of view/takes on certain matters. 

Then wait until the mediocrity has passed away and you can talk seriously. Until then expecting them to debate when it's futile is nonsense.

Modifié par Amioran, 08 avril 2012 - 06:25 .

[eoinnx03]

Because they have lives and don't find it worth it anymore, and probably think we just don't get it. I don't blame them. Who likes facing criticism? They should be proud of ME 3 99 percent of it was the best game ever made. FACT.

[bigbade]

Amioran wrote...

bigbade wrote...
In any case, they shouldn't be SAYING we are the co-authors if they don't want us to take it literally, in fact the same thing applies with the ending if it turns out to not be something to take at face value.

Oh, c'mon, don't play the card of the ingenuous. Everyone with at last a minimal IQ can understand that a thing as that is said as a way to thank the fans and to express their gratitude (or similar things) not certainly as a literal affirmation of co-authorship.

That's just twisting words to have a point in something that cannot have any otherwise (as in pretending them to change their work to please your pow).

bigbade wrote...
Some people read what's in front of them and don't feel like looking beyond that, that's just the way some people work.

Then it's not the fault Bioware but of those people. If you are an idiot that if someone say to you something like "oh, go shot yourself" (as a way to say "go away, don't bother me anymore") and you literally take a gun and shot yourself do you think the one that said that is to blame for something?

bigbade wrote...
I know they've adopted a lot of complaints I read about in ME2/ME1 forums, and I never claimed they weren't listening, but some, like me, are genuinely interested in their replies/ points of view/takes on certain matters. 

Then wait until the mediocrity has passed away and you can talk seriously. Until then expecting them to debate when it's futile is nonsense.

What? Go ahead, try and set up a huge multi-million dollar company and come out with a statement which gets misinterpreted then come back with "well you're an idiot for taking me literally". 
I think you have too much faith in the masses man, millions of people have been buying the same exact call of duty game since COD4:MW now, do you really think that everyone likes to thinks things through? Besides, the guy saying he's an actual co-author is using it to bolster his probably poor argument about why the ending didn't satisfy him and he feels betrayed by his 'partners in writing' (me team)'. I'm generalizing, but again those kind of topics are just very very very easy to not click on, and saying that 95% of this forum is those kind of people isn't fair to the huge amount of constructive debate we see every day. 


Again, not debating, answering. I fail to see the futility in their answering questions only THEY have the answer to, they can't be wrong. They can get bashed for it, but they'll still be in the right because they're the only ones with answers right now. Waiting for it to die down is a bad idea, because without answers this thing won't be dying down any time soon. Technically, the extended cut will answer all our questions yes...but what happens if it sucks? 

Modifié par bigbade, 08 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[abaris]

bigbade wrote...

Good point, but I'm not even asking for their opinion, I'm asking for their answers.

But it isn't "their" answers you would get.

It's something the company would want you to know. Just think about it. They're in the process of selling their latest product and possible expansions. And they're in the process of damage control. Everything that's been said now is to be viewed under these premisses.

It's just a friendly warning I'm always issuing when people view replies from the team as something akin to the second coming. I know a bit about the procedures of major companies and so I always urge people to be realistic about what can be expected. Take everything with a grain of salt.

[Echo_V]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Why should they? Every little thing they say and do is ripped apart by butthurt people on the forums. They get threats on Twitter, they're harassed and treated like crap... why the hell SHOULD they talk to you?

Seriously. I'm sure they'd rather slam their dicks in a door than come here and deal with all the drama queens here.

This!
I've read horrible stuff from fans on BSN since ME3`s launch, so I'm actually glad they don't talk to us at the moment.
Even Jessica and Chris get insulted even though they are working FOR the community...
Just read the replies to this thread -.-

[bigbade]

abaris wrote...

bigbade wrote...

Good point, but I'm not even asking for their opinion, I'm asking for their answers.

But it isn't "their" answers you would get.

It's something the company would want you to know. Just think about it. They're in the process of selling their latest product and possible expansions. And they're in the process of damage control. Everything that's been said now is to be viewed under these premisses.

It's just a friendly warning I'm always issuing when people view replies from the team as something akin to the second coming. I know a bit about the procedures of major companies and so I always urge people to be realistic about what can be expected. Take everything with a grain of salt.

With questions about the ending I can see this yes, but I very highly doubt EA has some kind of 'don't talk about it' ban on stuff in codex entries, little plot holes, questions about the universe in and of itself rather than the content? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong lol. 

[killnoob]

PurebredCorn wrote...

bigbade wrote...

David Gaider posts all the time down in DA2 forums, maybe because he wants to avoid DA3 being another catastrophe.
 

Mr. Gaider has always participated in the forums since Baldur's Gate 2, and as much as I appreciate any post made by the writers I always suspect they're a little crazy for doing so considering how ugly some of the fans can get. So I don't blame any of the devs who don't participate in the forums.

because Gaider has the guts...

Modifié par killnoob, 08 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[abaris]

bigbade wrote...

With questions about the ending I can see this yes, but I very highly doubt EA has some kind of 'don't talk about it' ban on stuff in codex entries, little plot holes, questions about the universe in and of itself rather than the content? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong lol. 

Strip it down to it's bare essentials.

Talking about plot holes or codex entries implies talking about the quality of the product or questioning it even.

So, yes, I'm pretty sure they have a contract of not talking about any of this.

[bigbade]

Echo_V wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Why should they? Every little thing they say and do is ripped apart by butthurt people on the forums. They get threats on Twitter, they're harassed and treated like crap... why the hell SHOULD they talk to you?

Seriously. I'm sure they'd rather slam their dicks in a door than come here and deal with all the drama queens here.

This!
I've read horrible stuff from fans on BSN since ME3`s launch, so I'm actually glad they don't talk to us at the moment.
Even Jessica and Chris get insulted even though they are working FOR the community...
Just read the replies to this thread -.-

horrible stuff is part of the job. They made a lot of people angry, angry people say angry things. That can be rationalized rather easily, like when a teenager gets mad at their parents and tells them they hate them. The parent might be upset at that very moment but after a while they realize the kid was speaking out of anger/frustration. It's been a month now, which IMO is plenty of time to try and think this through. 

[Amioran]

bigbade wrote...
1) The heat is too much, yes, I agree. Do you think it will die down if they remain silent? 

It has always done, so what you said after is proved wrong by facts. This can anyway either be understood by logic. Those that don't have arguments, like to flame etc. get bored very fast. They go away soon. The only way to make them stay on the contrary is to give them what they want: i.e. more reasons to flame, that's exactly what it willl happen if devs were comunicative now.

bigbade wrote...
2) Complete opposite, almost every thread that spawns is questions. Questions, questions, questions. And then more questions. If they answered there wouldn't be questions to ask. 

Do you really think so? Do you really think that those that now ask questions (or the majority of them) do so really wanting to listen to a reply? They ask questions just to provoke. Most of the times in fact questions are not posed as such but as already stated facts, the mask of the question is just rethoric.

bigbade wrote...
3) Generalizing. Loud dumb people doesn't make them more numerous than the modest helpful ones. I click through a bunch of threads every day and usually go by thread title to see if it'll be interesting, maybe 1/5 fails to deliver every time. There's lots of good discussion going on and it's very easy to avoid the crappy kind.

But also those threads (that are not as many as you say, but anyway...) are full of people that when you really start to debate cannot stand it. Or they become angry, or they start sprouting nonsense only as a way to have a point, or they refuse to listen to any sort of evidence no matter how many facts you propose. It is true that not everyone one is like that but the majority as of now it is like this. I've tried many times to debate, so I've seen this first hand.

Since as I said in point n. 1 those people will get bored more sooner than later the ones that have real questions and really would like some answers and useful debates willl remain and then an useful discussion could arise.

bigbade wrote...
4) DA2 forums erupted because the whole GAME didn't live up to expectations (to say the least). People weren't asking questions apart from "what the **** happened?". That's not a question that can really be answered 

In the beginning. If you look now the posts where devs reply are full of questions, suggestions and debates. At beginning it was as you said and in fact no devs even cared about replying to them if not to close the threads or to reply to some personal insult.

Modifié par Amioran, 08 avril 2012 - 06:45 .

[natie]

http://twitter.com/#...050220275974144

Seems like PR people really don't want them to talk with us directly.

What the hell? Someone is actually talking with us like a human being and giving us some hope, and she's ANGRY ABOUT IT???

[bigbade]

abaris wrote...

bigbade wrote...

With questions about the ending I can see this yes, but I very highly doubt EA has some kind of 'don't talk about it' ban on stuff in codex entries, little plot holes, questions about the universe in and of itself rather than the content? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong lol. 

Strip it down to it's bare essentials.

Talking about plot holes or codex entries implies talking about the quality of the product or questioning it even.

So, yes, I'm pretty sure they have a contract of not talking about any of this.

in that case I don't see why the DA forum gets dev replies to those kind of questions. Unless that embargo dwindles down with content plans, but if I'm not mistaken Gaider's been answering to people all throughout DA2 and it's DLC period (might be wrong here, correct me if so). 

[abaris]

bigbade wrote...

in that case I don't see why the DA forum gets dev replies to those kind of questions. Unless that embargo dwindles down with content plans, but if I'm not mistaken Gaider's been answering to people all throughout DA2 and it's DLC period (might be wrong here, correct me if so). 

They more or less abandoned DAII - that would be one explanation.

The other would be that Gaiders responses are screened before he posts them. I can't imagine him being absolutely free to say whatever strikes his fancy. That's not how corporate life or any business life works.

Once again, even if you work at a grocers you're usually not free to talk about your merchandise unless you want to risk the sack.

[Amioran]

bigbade wrote...
What? Go ahead, try and set up a huge multi-million dollar company and come out with a statement which gets misinterpreted then come back with "well you're an idiot for taking me literally". 

It depends on the statement. In that case it was obvious. You don't get money from your "co-autorship" isn't it? Have they contacted you to ask you questions about the scripts etc. during devolopment? Didn't seem to me or am I mistaking something?

There are things that simply cannot be taken literally or you are a simpleton. A thing is having a mediocre IQ, another it is to have it so low to not get a thing as this. Nobody can take seriously someone as that.

bigbade wrote...
Besides, the guy saying he's an actual co-author is using it to bolster his probably poor argument about why the ending didn't satisfy him and he feels betrayed by his 'partners in writing' (me team)'.

Sure, and I know perfectly that he just play the obvious card of the simpleton just to have a point. He knows perfectly that the thing was not literal but he play smart.

This is, in fact, twisting words. If he would have taken the thing seriously then I would not have brought it as an example of that because it would have been another thing.

bigbade wrote...
I'm generalizing, but again those kind of topics are just very very very easy to not click on, and saying that 95% of this forum is those kind of people isn't fair to the huge amount of constructive debate we see every day. 

Sadly but that percentual is probably true, and if it is not 95% it is 90%. You cannot expect a dev to really search 10-20 pages of threads just to find 1-2 useful debates. With the amount of threads there are and with the velocity they come and go (again for the motives already explained) it is simply almost impossible.

And either if they could the other 90% of trolls would start to flame so hard (they are there for this) as to make any sort of debate impossible. It would be like talking in a club with the music at 200 decibel.

I fail to see the futility in their answering questions only THEY have the answer to, they can't be wrong.

Oh, but they can. If you don't want to listen then everything the other says it is necessarily always wrong.

Modifié par Amioran, 08 avril 2012 - 06:48 .

[kbct]

abaris wrote...

bigbade wrote...

in that case I don't see why the DA forum gets dev replies to those kind of questions. Unless that embargo dwindles down with content plans, but if I'm not mistaken Gaider's been answering to people all throughout DA2 and it's DLC period (might be wrong here, correct me if so). 

They more or less abandoned DAII - that would be one explanation.

The other would be that Gaiders responses are screened before he posts them. I can't imagine him being absolutely free to say whatever strikes his fancy. That's not how corporate life or any business life works.

Once again, even if you work at a grocers you're usually not free to talk about your merchandise unless you want to risk the sack.

I wouldn't say his responses are screened. However, there are probably corporate rules about what you can talk about. Also, Gaider has good judgment.

[bigbade]

Amioran wrote...

bigbade wrote...
1) The heat is too much, yes, I agree. Do you think it will die down if they remain silent? 

It has always done, so what you said after is proved wrong by facts. This can anyway either be understood by logic. Those that don't have arguments, like to flame etc. get bored very fast. They go away soon. The only way to make them stay on the contrary is to give them what they want: i.e. more reasons to flame, that's exactly what it willl happen if devs where comunicative now.

bigbade wrote...
2) Complete opposite, almost every thread that spawns is questions. Questions, questions, questions. And then more questions. If they answered there wouldn't be questions to ask. 

Do you really think so? Do you really think that those that now ask questions (or the majority of them) do so really wanting to listen to a reply? They ask questions just to provoke. Most of the times in fact questions are not posed as such but as already stated facts, the mask of the question is just rethoric.

bigbade wrote...
3) Generalizing. Loud dumb people doesn't make them more numerous than the modest helpful ones. I click through a bunch of threads every day and usually go by thread title to see if it'll be interesting, maybe 1/5 fails to deliver every time. There's lots of good discussion going on and it's very easy to avoid the crappy kind.

But also those threads (that are not as many as you say, but anyway...) are full of people that when you really start to debate cannot stand it. Or they become angry, or they start sprouting nonsense only as a way to have a point, or they refuse to listen to any sort of evidence no matter how many facts you propose. It is true that not everyone one is like that but the majority as of now it is like this. I've tried many times to debate, so I've seen this first hand.

Since as I said in point n. 1 those people will get bored more sooner than later the ones that have real questions and really would like some answers and useful debates willl remain and then an useful discussion could arise.

bigbade wrote...
4) DA2 forums erupted because the whole GAME didn't live up to expectations (to say the least). People weren't asking questions apart from "what the **** happened?". That's not a question that can really be answered 

In the beginning. If you look now the posts where devs reply are full of questions, suggestions and debates. At beginning it was as you said and in fact no devs even cared about replying to them if not to close the threads or to reply to some personal insult.

1) Ok, yes that's true. Heat dies down with the trolls, but the extended cut is either going to spark this all over again or soothe the largest number of people it can, reducing this fire to a mere sidenote (forum wise, not in bioware's history) some months from now. I don't think Bioware wants to spark this again, and by keeping us in the dark about it they make it that much more likely. 

2) Guess that depends on your interpretation of the thread. I like to think the threads are there for a reason other than rhetorical questioning and provocation.

3) That fault lies with posters. A lot of people here just can't debate well, that's more than true. I was frustrated during the 1-2 weeks where every 5 minutes a new "indoc theory debunker" thread would spawn and the person had not read the theory and would not reply to their own thread afterwards. I've also seen the people trying to say that ME3 "technically" DID deliver because anything said pre-release is subject to change and won't stray from this point of view. That's not debating, that's just trying to impose your opinion without convincing anyone. 
But regardless, I'm not saying people here debate well, I'm saying there's lots of people with lots of good points. Some present them better than others.

4) I guess, but I think DA2 was a lost cause because bioware simply aren't going to change the whole game. An ending is but 1-5% of the whole game in this case.