99 réponses à ce sujet

[Rudy Lis]

Kronner wrote...

Yes please:D

Keep the peashooters like Scimitar away from me 

Lemme guess: penetration&rang of Widow/Javelin, power of Paladin/Claymore, weight of Shiriken with light materials, accuracy of Valiant. rate of fire of Hurricane and magazine like Particle rifle?
Remind me running joke back in Operation flashpoint days: machine gun with optic sight.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 12 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

+1. I've always assumed that this thing gets so much grief because most people who pick shotguns want some kind of sci-fi blunderbuss that wipes out enemies in a single shot and requires an age to reload and refire in return... not me. The Scimitar and, (to a lesser extent) the Disciple, are the only shotguns I use, for the very reasons you describe.

Since I was the one who listed Scimitar - my main complain to most of ingame shotguns is not their power, but their accuracy/range combo. Scimitar has good RoF, probably most realistic one, but accuracy is off the charts for me (though not as horrible as Raider). If you like keeping thing up close and personal - I have no problems with that.

Maybe its because I've always used it with a choke, but mentioning the accuracy of both the Raider and the Scimitar in the same sentence sounds crazy to me... It's not laser accurate, no, but good lord, its got a better range than that batarian piece of junk.... no wonder the reapers steamroller'd them

Seriously, though, the Scimitar was my go-to short range weapon throughout all of ME2 and its largely stepped into that role in ME3 (I'm guessing I never did totally cure my Vanguard-itis, as I didn't realise how naturally agressive I play my Adept until I tried to play without my trusty SPAS-12 in space... uh, Scimitar), so realistically, I don't think I've ever experienced it at anything beyond mid range. I'll have to test it. I've just never been a fan of the 1-shot-reload shotties like the Claymore, particularly against stuff like husks.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

Maybe its because I've always used it with a choke, but mentioning the accuracy of both the Raider and the Scimitar in the same sentence sounds crazy to me... It's not laser accurate, no, but good lord, its got a better range than that batarian piece of junk.... no wonder the reapers steamroller'd them

Tell it to one of my Shepards, who steamrolled them on Torfan.
I used it with choke too, but still, Crusader was my choice.
If I will replay game someday, I promise to give scimitar another chance.

JaegerBane wrote...

Seriously, though, the Scimitar was my go-to short range weapon throughout all of ME2 and its largely stepped into that role in ME3 (I'm guessing I never did totally cure my Vanguard-itis, as I didn't realise how naturally agressive I play my Adept until I tried to play without my trusty SPAS-12 in space... uh, Scimitar), so realistically, I don't think I've ever experienced it at anything beyond mid range. I'll have to test it. I've just never been a fan of the 1-shot-reload shotties like the Claymore, particularly against stuff like husks.

In ME2 I liked Eviscerator, even used it instead of GPS sometimes. But in ME3 IMHO Evic got nerfed a bit. Somewhere too close to "not fun to play" line for me.
I used Claymore only once, during Kalros backdance, so can't say much on it.

[XTR3M3]

I really think they dropped the ball with the SMGs. they are pretty much worthless on insanity mode kinda like the adept powers were in ME2. The new Geth SMG is kinda cool though since it shoots like the heavy weapon spitfire.

the pistols are FAR better and more effective than any SMG.....especially if you have a sensitive mouse and can almost full auto them.

[incinerator950]

Hornet and Hurricane pull their weight on Insanity. I use a Hornet on my Vanguard, along with a Disciple and Chakram Launcher.

[Jestina]

Some of the weapons don't make any sense. The Valkyrie looks to have the same stats as a Vindicator but weighs twice as much. Bioware needs to stop handing out crap for special weapons. The Argus is useless too.

And I think the problem with smgs is that Bioware stupidly took away their advantage against shields. In the past it was slower weapons were better against armor and faster weapons were better against shields.

[godlike13]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I've always assumed that this thing gets so much grief because most people who pick shotguns want some kind of sci-fi blunderbuss that wipes out enemies in a single shot and requires an age to reload and refire in return

Yes please:D

Keep the peashooters like Scimitar away from me 

True dat 

[Delta_V2]

Jestina wrote...

Some of the weapons don't make any sense. The Valkyrie looks to have the same stats as a Vindicator but weighs twice as much. Bioware needs to stop handing out crap for special weapons. The Argus is useless too.

And I think the problem with smgs is that Bioware stupidly took away their advantage against shields. In the past it was slower weapons were better against armor and faster weapons were better against shields.

Yeah, some of the weapon weights are...questionable at best.  The Valkyrie and Argus should either be lighter or more powerful (preferably the latter, to help distinguish them from the Vindicator).  The shotguns in general seem too heavy, especially the N7 Crusader.  Their firepower just does not make up for the reduced power use.

Three of the five smgs are useless.  The Hurricane and Hornet have their niches, but they could all use a little work.  Doing extra damage to shields could be a good place to start.

[Athenau]

The Hornet does NOT need a bufff. Have you seen its dps? It's crazy high.

[JaegerBane]

incinerator950 wrote...

Hornet and Hurricane pull their weight on Insanity. I use a Hornet on my Vanguard, along with a Disciple and Chakram Launcher.

The thing is, the Hornet and the Hurricane were designed to excel in specific functions, which they do. The vast majority of the SMGs don't really have any focus and lack firepower, making for a bad combination.

[JaegerBane]

Delta_V2 wrote...

Jestina wrote...

Some of the weapons don't make any sense. The Valkyrie looks to have the same stats as a Vindicator but weighs twice as much. Bioware needs to stop handing out crap for special weapons. The Argus is useless too.

And I think the problem with smgs is that Bioware stupidly took away their advantage against shields. In the past it was slower weapons were better against armor and faster weapons were better against shields.

Yeah, some of the weapon weights are...questionable at best.  The Valkyrie and Argus should either be lighter or more powerful (preferably the latter, to help distinguish them from the Vindicator).  The shotguns in general seem too heavy, especially the N7 Crusader.  Their firepower just does not make up for the reduced power use.

Three of the five smgs are useless.  The Hurricane and Hornet have their niches, but they could all use a little work.  Doing extra damage to shields could be a good place to start.

One of the main reasons why I modded out the weight mechanic was that I wasn't convinced there was any logic in the weights that had been assigned to different weapons. The Crusader, for instance, has an absurd weight that simply isn't reflected in its capabilities, while the Paladin outperforms most sniper rifles despite having less than a fifth of the weight.

I dumped the mechanic as soon as I figured out how to, and I'm enjoying the game far more.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

One of the main reasons why I modded out the weight mechanic was that I wasn't convinced there was any logic in the weights that had been assigned to different weapons. The Crusader, for instance, has an absurd weight that simply isn't reflected in its capabilities, while the Paladin outperforms most sniper rifles despite having less than a fifth of the weight.

I dumped the mechanic as soon as I figured out how to, and I'm enjoying the game far more.

Pistols are generally overpowered - how the hell that small thingy has more powerful shot than huge rifle? Equation between size-power-magazine capacity (a.k.a. "built-in heatsinks")-rate of fire doesn't fits at all.

[zeypher]

Rudy Lis wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

One of the main reasons why I modded out the weight mechanic was that I wasn't convinced there was any logic in the weights that had been assigned to different weapons. The Crusader, for instance, has an absurd weight that simply isn't reflected in its capabilities, while the Paladin outperforms most sniper rifles despite having less than a fifth of the weight.

I dumped the mechanic as soon as I figured out how to, and I'm enjoying the game far more.

Pistols are generally overpowered - how the hell that small thingy has more powerful shot than huge rifle? Equation between size-power-magazine capacity (a.k.a. "built-in heatsinks")-rate of fire doesn't fits at all.

Even lore wise it doesnt make sense. Since guns use linear acceleration technology to accelarte their projectiles, longer the rail, the higher dmg.
Pistols should not out dmg a bloody sniper

[Rudy Lis]

zeypher wrote...

Even lore wise it doesnt make sense. Since guns use linear acceleration technology to accelarte their projectiles, longer the rail, the higher dmg.
Pistols should not out dmg a bloody sniper

Exactly. If 1911 could pack punch from any "elephant rifle" but keep his own size, weight, trigger and rate of fire - who would need rifles? "Anti-tank pistol".  Just for fun sake, I used Paladin to took down Atlas on Noveria.
 Really, commander?

IMHO they should make pistols sort of short range/good stopping power (not ultimate power) weapons, with fastest handling possible and keep normal curve between power/recoil and usability. IMHO good last-resort weapon for ability-reliant characters, if someone just jumped in front of them out of blue. Maybe not that much of a damage, but stopping power, breaking enemies action, like non-lethal headshot now.

Shotguns should be universal guns as they are IRL - "buckshot" for about 30 metres, slugs and flechettes for 100 (since that's upper limit), decent accuracy, weight and RoF combo, not that nonsense we have now.

SR and AR need minor-to-medium tweaks to deal with redundant, useless and "just fer show" guns.

Not sure where put SMGs - I don't see real application for them, other than shield strippers, plus how they suppose to "muffle" hypervelocity rounds with suppressor? By deactivating everyones sound emulators?

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 13 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[JaegerBane]

Rudy Lis wrote...
IMHO they should make pistols sort of short range/good stopping power (not ultimate power) weapons, with fastest handling possible and keep normal curve between power/recoil and usability. IMHO good last-resort weapon for ability-reliant characters, if someone just jumped in front of them out of blue. Maybe not that much of a damage, but stopping power, breaking enemies action, like non-lethal headshot now.

I actually think that Deus Ex: Human Revolution did this thing very well - they used range and physical size as the main balancing factors for guns. This worked really well on that game's equivalent to the Paladin - the Diamondback .357 - because, all it packed *vast* punch, as a pistol, it took up very little space but also had a somewhat restricted range. Still long enough for it to be useful of course, but short enough so that you couldn't use it across say, a warehouse or similar range. The sniper rifles in that game still had plenty of use due to their incredible range. Things like the combat rifle and heavy rifle sat somewhere between the two.

Shotguns should be universal guns as they are IRL - "buckshot" for about 30 metres, slugs and flechettes for 100 (since that's upper limit), decent accuracy, weight and RoF combo, not that nonsense we have now.

Personally, I don't have any issue with the shotties in ME3, aside from their silly weight levels. In fact they did much better with this than they did in ME2 - their range was so short back then it was almost comical.

SR and AR need minor-to-medium tweaks to deal with redundant, useless and "just fer show" guns.

Meh, no harm in having a few crap weapons to fill out the arsenal. I only object when they fill a major role with a crap weapon. Just so long as the player doesn't have to sacrifice anything to get them.

Not sure where put SMGs - I don't see real application for them, other than shield strippers, plus how they suppose to "muffle" hypervelocity rounds with suppressor? By deactivating everyones sound emulators?

Personally, I think SMGs should fill a gap between shotties and ARs - make the ARs more medium range weapons, and it creates a gap for the SMGs. That, or just design them like the Hornet and Hurricane i.e. for a purpose, and not as some rubbish one-size-fails-all approach where they just don't do anything well.

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

I actually think that Deus Ex: Human Revolution did this thing very well - they used range and physical size as the main balancing factors for guns. This worked really well on that game's equivalent to the Paladin - the Diamondback .357 - because, all it packed *vast* punch, as a pistol, it took up very little space but also had a somewhat restricted range. Still long enough for it to be useful of course, but short enough so that you couldn't use it across say, a warehouse or similar range. The sniper rifles in that game still had plenty of use due to their incredible range. Things like the combat rifle and heavy rifle sat somewhere between the two.

I guess Paladin is S&W.500. Remember merchant from Resident Evil 4: "Stranger, haha! What d'ya need that for? Going huntin' an Elephant? "

I think main problem of ME3 weaponry is lack of link between guns parameters. For example, SMG lightweight component. Hello, how about recoil increase? It doesn't affect recoil? Why's then Widow has weight around 40 kg?

So my suggestion is simple: direct proportion between power, weight, recoil, muzzleflip (don't forget barrel axis height nonsense), RoF.

For example, me and my SO owns two Benelly Nova. Mine in 12 gauge, hers in 20. Normal trade-off power-recoil>RoF ratio. Also, should I install mercury recoil dampner in my Nova, thats will increase weight, but reduce recoil. And should I use super-magnum rounds instead of standard, that could increase reach and power for price of greater recoil.

I suggest same for ME. For example, should you decrease weight or increase power of your gun, then you got snappier recoil, greater muzzle flip, lesser RoF (for semi-auto guns, cyclic rate of full-autos shouldn't be affected this way).

JaegerBane wrote...

Personally, I don't have any issue with the shotties in ME3, aside from their silly weight levels. In fact they did much better with this than they did in ME2 - their range was so short back then it was almost comical.

I do. I still thing their spread is a way off. Plus lack of user-defined projectile type - pellet or slug. Could solve 90 percent of the problem, for shotgun-reliant classes.
And personally I didn't find that much positive changes from ME2, really - Evi works great there, but somewhat killed by Wraith now.

JaegerBane wrote...

Meh, no harm in having a few crap weapons to fill out the arsenal. I only object when they fill a major role with a crap weapon. Just so long as the player doesn't have to sacrifice anything to get them.

Why have a crappy weapon, when you can have good weapon?
They want more guns, but don't want to give us selective fire? Fine, let's take IRL as example. .308, 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 as basic ammo factors.
First one packs punch, has smaller mag, but greater weight and recoil. Great for headshots placement, for those who like have every shot count.

Third is lighweight, allows quick follow-up shots easily, has greater mag, could be light due minimal recoil. Ideal role for carbine for ability-reliant classes, who still want some decent long range gun.

Second is trade-off between two - it allows carrying more ammo, packs greate punch that third, but less than first, not as good for full auto, but has more managable recoil than first.

Plus, IMHO, burst should give us very fast and very accurate burst (ahem). Argus and Valkyrie burst are kind of bursts they shouldn't be. Vindicator from ME2 is one.

Trigger should in no way decide RoF for semi-auto guns. If you can pull trigger fast, your rifle should fire fast and accuracy recovery rate should be based on character skill (since so far soldier a bit nerfed) and weapon weight (maybe also mod).

JaegerBane wrote...

Personally, I think SMGs should fill a gap between shotties and ARs - make the ARs more medium range weapons, and it creates a gap for the SMGs. That, or just design them like the Hornet and Hurricane i.e. for a purpose, and not as some rubbish one-size-fails-all approach where they just don't do anything well.

Main problem with "Ranges" in ME2/3 - maximum range which is 100 metres. Shotgun slugs perform well here, not sure for flechettes, we had none. Buckshot flies pretty well around 30 metres (IRL of course, plus there are variants of ammo).

Not sure than SMG could do better somewhere between 30 and 100. Better create lighter carbine to suit that role, IMHO.

And give some SMGs normal collapsible stock. Hurricane could only won out of this. At least for player - teammates seems to ignoring spread and muzzleflip.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 13 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[jancz89]

ok so...
worst in my opinion:

pistol: probably Arc pistol and Paladin (redundant we have cornifex already), Eagle may have the lowest damage but there is the full auto fire hmmm...

SMG: that would be locust or hornet (that recoil is crazy), I am not a fan of SMGs, but locust was pretty good in ME2

assault rifle: argus (only usefull with marksman power) revenant (that ****'s recoil is unmanagable even with turian and his marksman ability, for me revenant is like ultra heavy tempest)

shotgun: this is hard every shotgun has something in it, but probably crusader (that weight with such low damage....) but all other shotguns are great in at least one thing - combined with marksman ability they change from shotgun to semi-automatic rifle, I love getting headshots with my claymore on the other side of the MP map

sniper rifle: incisor all the way and maybe black widow (how cool it might seem, the damage is pretty low for anti-material rifle which it should represent, and the recoil is terrible, what does it matter that it's semi automatic and that you have 3 shots when you loose your target after the first shot, but valiant that's another story )

I am very nostalgic about the weapons so my favourite are those from ME1 + mattock and valiant
firstly - predator, scimitar, avenger, mantis (for me mantis is better than widow, it weights less and with damage and armor piercing upgrade it has almost the same damage)
secondly - cornifex, katana, vindicator, viper

[Dasher1010]

Pistol: Predator. The Arc Pistol is faster, the Eagle is almost as fast with more power and the Phalanx has more damage per shot.

Sniper Rifle: Incisor. The thing can't hit the broad side of a barn on a Turian Soldier with an enhanced scope and Marksman.

Assault Rifle: Argus. See the Incisor

SMG: Locust. The DPS on this thing is so poor and it still has some horrible bloom

Shotgun: Katana. It feels like a weaker version of the Eviscerator.

[Athenau]

SMG: that would be locust or hornet (that recoil is crazy), I am not a fan of SMGs, but locust was pretty good in ME2

Hornet is seriously an S-tier gun in the right hands. In no sane universe could it be considered the "worst".

[mad_yojik]

Well my top of useless guns is that:

Pistol - Predator. Its DPS simply sucks.

SMG - Tempest. How the *** it is supposed to hit something? Maybe an atlas or brute in point-blank range. Plus weights a ton.

Assault rifle - Revenant. See Tempest. (Yeah, I dont play a turian soldier, I dont have one).

Sniper rifle - Viper. Mantis is better in terms of "one-shooting" in the beginning, Raptor is a way better auto-rifle.

Modifié par mad_yojik, 16 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Jog0907]

SMG > the locust with the ridiculously low damage

Pistol > arc pistol, waaaaay too heavy for what it does charged shots do too little for how long they take to prepare and on fast fire the predator or eagle are better due to much lower weight

AR > none Ive seen, a lot of people say Argus but IMO its great if you know how to handle the recoil though a bit heavy

SR > incisor, its not competitive when compared to other options

Shotgun > katana, its forgettable, there's always a better option in every point not even having versatility in its favor

[pingupower]

When talking about the range for shotguns it normal they reduced it a lot. Max range being 100m the eapons had to be adapted from IRL. At 100m using and anti-materiel rifle like the widow makes only sense if its a bunker or a tank you're aiming at.

[jancz89]

I actually don't know why people say that avenger or mantis are the worst or bad weapons, I personally think that avenger is the best full auto assault rifle, 54 shots for one thermal clip is good, damage is the second best among full auto assault rifles, and most of the time people shoot from cover so the accuracy isn't a big issue and it weights almost nothing!!! I use the avenger the most

geth pulse rifle - low damage, slow reload
phaeston - low damage, heavy
revenant - heavy, inaccurate, high recoil

and mantis? well it has extremely low weight, and at lvl X the damage with the damage upgrade is almost the same as widow, plus with armor piercing upgrade, it pierces I think 1.35 meters thick cover, widow doesn't and mantis has more thermal clip capacity, plus with the armor piercing damage mantis can take atlas mech down with two shots on silver, for me mantis is way better than widow, but there are many other variables of course
so take it as my personal opinion

and at last but not least, they are both ME1 weapons

[Jestina]

SMG's fill a role between handguns and AR's but I guess they never bothered to do any research into firearms.

[AlienSpaceBats]

I always thought SMGs were useless, and never, ever use them.