296 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

I've been thinking about this, and we already know the moral implications of forcing a new paradigm on trillions of beings along with basically following Saren's vision.

Aside from that, we have the fact that the Reapers get away with it.
Now, I'm of the opinion that the Reaper agenda succeeds in any end, but at least in destroy and control you can at least think that the Reapers are held to account.
In destroy, the Reapers are dead. In control, you can reason that Shepard will have them all kill themselves, or use them as a force for good or whatever.
With synthesis they just leave. Presumably as "free" as any one else. That doesn't sit  right with me.

Controlled or not, indoctrinated or not, they are mass murderers. They revel in cruelty and torture.
Harbinger alone is a war criminal of such appalling scope that he'd make any human war criminal in our entire history shriek in terror. Yet with synthesis presumably he flies off to live his life. So long, good luck?

The Reapers win ending is in the game alright, it's just mislabelled as the "best" ending.

Modifié par The Angry One, 08 avril 2012 - 07:43 .

[kalasaurus]

The reapers basically win in all the endings, because all of these choices are their solution to end Starkid's perceived conflict of synthetics vs. organics.

I agree that synthesis is the worst, though.

[Baihu1983]

Only 1 they dont really win is destroy but even thats a crap ending for a large part of the galaxy you just spent 3 games trying to save.

[Verit]

Synthesis is just disgusting. There's so many things wrong with it that I can't imagine anyone choosing that ending if they actually think it through.

[Geth_Huntha]

Synthesis never sat right with me. Not only are you playing with the DNA of every other lifeform in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent but you're pretty much doing what Saren wanted in ME1. Plus how does merging the DNA of organics and synthetics even remotely remove the possibility that someone down the line won't create a purely synthetic race that wipes out everyone else for not being "pure" synthetic?

[TGOW]

http://social.biowar.../index/10036548

This thread.

Modifié par TGOW, 08 avril 2012 - 07:42 .

[calvinocious]

We fans have spent about a month thinking through the implications of these endings. It's apparently more than the writing team did. What a travesty.

[wright1978]

The only conclusion i've come to is that synthesis must perform some kind of lobotomy on organic life that will stop them from being able to create new AI's. Otherwise what's the point. If it doesn't the reapers will just return and carry on their cycle of destruction.

[Iwillbeback]

They're responsible for probably over a thousand trillion deaths.

[The Angry One]

Yeah, the implications of synthesis are terrible, and I agree with a lot of what's said about it.
But even setting that aside, my point is we basically have an ending where the Reapers not only live, but are free to do what they like.
This is just idiotic. Have the Reapers, once, ever been shown to even deserve such an ending? If we were shown a sympathetic Reaper, or the potential of a Reaper not under the control of starbaby/Harbinger, maybe it'd work.

But like this? Synthesis just sets tens of thousands of war criminals loose to self-determinate. I think it's outrageous.

[kalasaurus]

calvinocious wrote...

We fans have spent about a month thinking through the implications of these endings. It's apparently more than the writing team did. What a travesty.

They're all morally abhorrent.  It's sad that the only way to achieve victory against the reapers is on Starkid's disgusting terms.

I don't know if it's better that they didn't think of the implications or if these were all intended.

[TGOW]

Zine2 wrote...

This is not meant to be nice. This is meant to be a blunt, honest, and to the point assessment - because everyone seems to be trying to avoid the Elephant in the room.

Mass Effect's Ending attempts to condone and justify genocide. This is why it is almost universally reviled.

The one common element in all the endings is that you will meet an entity known as the "Catalyst". Set aside all of the other plot holes and minor complaints, and focus on the Catalyst for now.

This is the entity that created the Reapers. This is the entity that is directly responsible for the genocide of multiple sentient races over tens of thousands of years. It is his fault that Earth, Palaven, Thessia, and the Galaxy is burning.

The Catalyst is in fact a war criminal on a scale worse than any of our own real-world tyrants. Hitler's gas chambers, Genghis Khan's campaigns of extermination, and Tamerlene's pyramid of skulls is nothing compared to what the Reapers have done. That it tries to disguise itself as a young child does nothing to exonerate it of the magnitude of its crimes - it's actually sickening. It's like Hitler having plastic surgery to look like an innocent child.

Even worse, this is an entity that attempts to justify its genocidal actions - in a way that is bluntly little different from the real world genocide of the Jews.

It uses euphemisms to describe mass murder. It uses the term "Chaos" to describe people, as though they are a problem and not living, breathing, beings. It calls its actions a "Solution", just as the certain people called the Holocaust their "Final Solution". It even goes as far as calling the the liquification of corpses into Reaper components as "Ascension", no different from how the Concentration Camps collected the hair and skin of the dead victims to use as furniture components.

Even worse, the premise of the Catalyst is fundamentally a racist premise. It boils down to "Organics and Synthetics are so different that they will always end up destroying each other". Really? You are now judged by your component parts - metal or protein - instead of the content of your character? How offensive would it be in real life to hear someone say you should be judged by the color of your skin?

To top it all off, the player is not allowed to question its actions. It must stand idly by and accept its justifications. You are not allowed to tell it that is wrong. Mac Walters and Casey Hudson actually thought this was a good thing too, as noted here in the "Final Hours":

Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally, with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation, where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out"

But given that they were planning to allow the player to ask only softball questions ("How long have you been reaping?", as opposed to "Why did you not seek a different solution that did NOT involve mass murder?"), they were apparently so in love with their "Genocide is justifiable!" ending that they didn't think it was a big deal.

======
But it gets even worse. You are not simply prevented from telling the Catalyst that it is wrong. You are also forced to go along with its next plan - its next "solution".

This is why the most popular alternate ending thus far is the "I refuse all of your options" ending. Players would seriously rather have the entire galaxy wiped out than be forced to serve the Catalyst.

And you know what? Because they are absolutely right.

Genocide is wrong. Period. There is no room for debate. Nothing can justify what the Catalyst did, no matter how much it claims it's so much smarter than all of us. No matter how much Mac Walters thinks its smarter than all of us.

And this is ironically a lesson that the rest of the series spends so much time teaching us. It shows us that even beings of another races are people "just like us" with their own hopes and dreams. It doesn't matter if the Elcor are big and look funny. We love them because they have art, and culture, and feelings too, even if we cannot fully comprehend it like they do.
----

This is why the ME3 ending was a total and abject failure. It is not art. It is not deep. It is offensive.

It is about a brat AI proudly explaining his Mein Kampf. That people should be judged along racial lines: Organic vs Synthetic. And that because of these racial lines, he was totally justified in committing genocide over, and over, and over again.

And the player is forced to become one of the pawns in his game. That is why players hate the ending; and why the most popular "alternative" ending is one wherein the player completely and totally rejects the Catalyst's "options", even if it means certain military defeat.
-----
[Also... since some people will argue "But the Catalyst is correct about organics and synthetics!"

The Catalyst was in fact completely and totally wrong. Just because it says it's correct does not mean it is true. That is the trick used by propagandists everywhere.

Instead, what people should do is to analyze the strength of its arguments. And frankly, anyone with some common sense would realize that this is a very weak argument.

There is nothing that inherently forces Organics and Synthetics to fight each other. Races and people fight all the time. Turians make war on Krogans. Krogans make war on Salarians. Even without synthetics there will still be conflict in the universe.

However, the Catalyst's premise is that there is a divide between Synthetics and Organics, and that they are "fated" to kill each other. That's not a sound argument. That's just racist ideology. Again that's just judging people based on their component parts - metal or protein - rather than the strength of their character. Only a racist in the real world would claim that your character is dictated by the color of your skin, just as the Catalyst's grand assertion that being a Synthetic or an Organic hard-wires you down a particular path is no less racist.

And ironically, you can in fact forge an alliance between an organic and Synthetic race (Quarians and Geth) within the game - proving that the divide between the two is nothing more than a lie.

Therefore, what the Catalyst is saying is not factual. Just because it says "the cycle will continue" without its intervention does not make it true. It's just an arrogant being who is trying to play God, and which has killed trillons of sentient beings in the name of upholding its flawed premise.]

[EvilMind]

I have no idea what are you talking about, I think Synthesis is best option. So far I dont see any good argument against it in this thread. I'd love to hear facts why you think its bad, only facts, not vague assumptions

[TheLoneStorm]

I have never picked synthesis purely on the reason I didn't want Shepard playing god in a horrific manner. You are not only changing their DNA but their appearance, you're physically mutating them which to me is gruesome.

Catalyst: All organic and synthetic DNA has been merged.
Joker: WHAT? I don't wanna part synthetic or glow green!
Catalyst: L0L too bad, you're part robot now L0L

Screw space magic.

[Asharad Hett]

EvilMind wrote...

I have no idea what are you talking about, I think Synthesis is best option. So far I dont see any good argument against it in this thread. I'd love to hear facts why you think its bad, only facts, not vague assumptions

  Because it's everything MY shep fought against.

[The Angry One]

EvilMind wrote...

I have no idea what are you talking about, I think Synthesis is best option. So far I dont see any good argument against it in this thread. I'd love to hear facts why you think its bad, only facts, not vague assumptions

Have you made any argument for it? I have stated the facts, and they are clear.
Either make a post with substance or don't make one at all.

[NormanRawn]

I agree, having the Reapers still in existence in 2 choices, is not the resolution to the ME story I was looking forward to. And sacrificing a species in Destroy, doesn't make me feel any better. .

[Zix13]

EvilMind wrote...

I have no idea what are you talking about, I think Synthesis is best option. So far I dont see any good argument against it in this thread. I'd love to hear facts why you think its bad, only facts, not vague assumptions

a) unethical in numerous ways
reapers win
c) doesn't make any sense
d) you have no idea to what degree this "synthesis" merges synthetics and organics
e) starchild wants you to pick it

[SnakesSon]

EvilMind wrote...

I have no idea what are you talking about, I think Synthesis is best option. So far I dont see any good argument against it in this thread. I'd love to hear facts why you think its bad, only facts, not vague assumptions

I swear I'm making the rounds against Synthesis today, but here goes.

1-You're rewriting the DNA of not just one species, but everyone in the galaxy without their permission. This is kind of a dick move.

2-Homogenizing an entire galaxy is bad. This will curb different opinions, advancements in technology, or idealogies completely. Javik even says that's why his empire fell in the end.

3-You're doing close to what Saren wanted in the first place; compromising with the Reapers to make sure they don't kill all of us, just enslave us. Nice.

4-Synthetics weren't killing Organics because they weren't Synthetic. That makes no sense from a logical standpoint, and the Geth knew it. They were simply defending themselves from the bloodthirsty Quarians who couldn't handle having their creations become smart.

5-There's no guarantee someone won't build another Synthetic race that decides it's time to kill the partly synthetic humans.

6-It's racist. It's racist. It's RACIST. This one needed a lot of emphasis.

7-It goes against key themes in the Mass Effect trilogy. One of the main themes is unification of all people despite, and indeed because of their differences. The differences of the species gives them powerful advantages used to win wars. If this wasn't a key theme, please explain to me why we spent half of the game forging alliances between the aliens.

8-What the hell is everyone going to eat now that EVERYTHING is partly synthetic? How far did you go in butchering the genetic code of an entire galaxy? How does anything work? How will people reproduce? How will EDI and Joker repopulate a planet? WHAT?!

I think that's quite enough. If you have any problems with my points, feel free to acknowledge them so I can counter-argue. I could do this all day.

Edit: Oh, and as Zix13 said right above me, Starchild, the 'god' who is imposing these horrific choices on you, is pretty jazzed about Synthesis. That's enough alone for most people to steer clear.

Modifié par SnakesSon, 08 avril 2012 - 07:59 .

[EvilMind]

Noone is playing god, you got three options from which you have to choose. Like it or not, all 3 options affect all organic life in the galaxy.

I see synthesis as: Organics are now immortal (they dont age), they communicate at the speed of light, no diseases and etc. Are those things bad? If you dont wanna be immortal, kill yourself in ~80 years, i'm sure majority would love immortality. No wars / hate crimes / religious dispute and so many more. Who wouldn't want to learn at the speed of light? Whats there not to like?

Modifié par EvilMind, 08 avril 2012 - 07:59 .

[Orthodox Infidel]

EvilMind wrote...

I have no idea what are you talking about, I think Synthesis is best option. So far I dont see any good argument against it in this thread. I'd love to hear facts why you think its bad, only facts, not vague assumptions

Ignoring that this is the laziest defense of that choice ever that completely ignores The Angry One's point, what facts do you think exist about Synthesis? It's not foreshadowed at all in the plot as a capability of the Crucible, so all we have are vague assumptions to work off of.

[bleetman]

EvilMind wrote...

I have no idea what are you talking about, I think Synthesis is best option. So far I dont see any good argument against it in this thread. I'd love to hear facts why you think its bad, only facts, not vague assumptions

Violating the individuality of every living being in the galaxy in order to impose the will of the being responsible for the creation of the Reapers is a good thing?

Ok then.

[Pappi]

It sent a chill down my spine...everything becomming less alive, less human, all the same...shudder

[krayt298]

I agree with you OP. When I choose synthesis without thinking I thought it was the least worst of the three ending and then I really felt about because it did not felt right. Now I think it's probably the worst one.

[The Angry One]

EvilMind wrote...

Noone is playing god, you got three options from which you have to choose. Like it or not, all 3 options affect all organic life in the galaxy.

I see synthesis as: Organics are now immortal (they dont age), they communicate at the speed of light, no diseases and etc. Are those things bad? If you dont wanna be immortal, kill yourself in ~80 years, i'm sure majority would love immortality. No wars / hate crimes / religious dispute and so many more. Who wouldn't want to learn at the speed of light? Whats there not to like?

And you accuse others of assumptions?
Never mind that you ignore all of the moral implications and focus solely on the percieved benefits.