296 réponses à ce sujet

[SuperClutch16]

Pottumuusi wrote...

You are an omniscient god.
You see a horrible mass murderer getting away with it.
One day he decides to go and live as a hermit in the middle of the wilderness, and you know with absolute certainty that he repents his actions and will never do anything evil ever again.

What do you do?

Torture him, make him suffer. Then leave him to die of exposure and starvation.

[Xandurpein]

Invoking Godwin's law; imagine a game of World War II, ending when the Allies land on the beaches of Normandy and are met with a representative of the Third Reich willing to accept that their appearance means the Reich's policy has to change and provides a surprised allied commander with three different new takes on the "Final solution" and all the player could do is pick one choice. That's pretty much how I felt at the end of ME3.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 avril 2012 - 08:18 .

[Zix13]

EvilMind wrote...

So Shepard should have asked every single life form in galaxy if they prefer synthesis or not, so god forbid, he wont make that choice for them? Then why Shepard makes Destroy/Control decisions by himself and dont require everyones consent? I'm pretty sure those choices also have major impact on the future of the galaxy.

I believe that synthesis, as they said, is the final evolution and it has many obvious benefits. I dont see any reason why anyone would turn that down

............. No. Just No. 

[groundhogie]

I agree with the OP here. Synthesis just does not seem right. The reapers have tortured and killed trillions of people over millenia... choosing the green ending seems to betray the memories of all the people who were slaugthered because of their twisted logic.

[NormanRawn]

Pottumuusi wrote...

You are an omniscient god.
You see a horrible mass murderer getting away with it.
One day he decides to go and live as a hermit in the middle of the wilderness, and you know with absolute certainty that he repents his actions and will never do anything evil ever again.

What do you do?

The Catalyst doesn't regret what he has done, he just realizes he can't maintain the Cycle anymore because  Shepard opened the Citadel arms. And he became worthy to hear the  nonsense of the Reaper Master.

The Catalyst still thought the Cycle was a good idea, he is just presented with new possibilities because he thinks his "solution" won't work anymore.

If it was up to him, he would have kept harvesting, instead of having his Reapers fail. But Shepard proved the time of his "solution" was over.

Modifié par NormanRawn, 08 avril 2012 - 08:19 .

[Raiil]

Synthesis without questioning those affected beforehand is too reprehensible for words. You are changing the biological makeup of every living thing in the galaxy without their say so. Can't speak for all people but my Shepard was a little queasy about the work done to her by Cerberus; I can't imagine inflicting that on everyone.


But all the endings suck. Poor Shepard.

[Meltemph]

Mr.House wrote...

EvilMind wrote...



I see synthesis as: Organics are now immortal (they dont age), they communicate at the speed of light, no diseases and etc. Are those things bad? If you dont wanna be immortal, kill yourself in ~80 years, i'm sure majority would love immortality. No wars / hate crimes / religious dispute and so many more. Who wouldn't want to learn at the speed of light? Whats there not to like?

Wow, this is so naive it's not even funny.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Quietness wrote...

EvilMind wrote...

So Shepard should have asked every single life form in galaxy if they prefer synthesis or not, so god forbid, he wont make that choice for them? I believe that synthesis, as they said, is the final evolution and it has many obvious benefits. I dont see any reason why anyone would turn that down

take a moment and see what happens when you add a foreign species to an ecosystem .... now think about what would happen when the whole ecosystem goes foreign...

nuff said.

I don't like synthesis or Mr. EvilMind's argument, but I think you're being a bit over dramatic about the negative consequences to ecosystems. They'd change, yes, but there's no reason to believe the immediate or even near-future outcome is EVERYTHING DIES. Living things and ecosystems do remarkable jobs at adapting to all sorts of changes.

[Laurcus]

I'm surprised no one's responded to my math at all....

50 Sextillion kills for the Reapers, and no one is even gonna comment on that? *sad panda*

[Xandurpein]

EvilMind wrote...

Noone is playing god, you got three options from which you have to choose. Like it or not, all 3 options affect all organic life in the galaxy.

I see synthesis as: Organics are now immortal (they dont age), they communicate at the speed of light, no diseases and etc. Are those things bad? If you dont wanna be immortal, kill yourself in ~80 years, i'm sure majority would love immortality. No wars / hate crimes / religious dispute and so many more. Who wouldn't want to learn at the speed of light? Whats there not to like?

I think you are confusing evolution with "Intelligent design". There is nothing evolutionary about a divine waving of a magic wand.

[nevar00]

Actually, even worse: ALL of the endings has Shepard doing what the main antagonist wants.

No, apparently the Reapers are not the main villains. In fact they hardly count as villains at all as it seems they do not have free will: they are controlled by the Starkid, the real man villain of the series! And in each of the endings, you do exactly as he wants you to do.

Control: You take control of all synthetic life to force organics and synthetics to live in peace.
Destroy: You destroy all synthetic life, making sure organics cannot be killed by synthetics ever again.
Synthesis: Space magic happens and uh... Starchild is pleased.

Now I suppose you could say "well at least Starchild is killed in all endings except for Control as for whatever reason the Citadel does not explode" so I guess there's that but you still do exactly as he wants without confronting him about it. In fact he might not even be dead... who knows if he died or not.

[Deventh]

What if the child lied about controlling them too? What if you can't control them even with Shepard?

[Pottumuusi]

NormanRawn wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

You are an omniscient god.
You see a horrible mass murderer getting away with it.
One day he decides to go and live as a hermit in the middle of the wilderness, and you know with absolute certainty that he repents his actions and will never do anything evil ever again.

What do you do?

The Catalyst doesn't regret what he has done, he just realizes he can't maintain the Cycle anymore because  Shepard opened the Citadel arms. And he became worthy to hear the  nonsense of the Reaper Master.

The Catalyst still thought the Cycle was a good idea, he is just presented with new possibilities because he thinks his "solution" won't work anymore.

If it was up to him, he would have kept harvesting, instead of having his Reapers fail. But Shepard proved the time of his "solution" was over.

The regret part isn't really important, it's that you know that he will never kill people again, doesn't really matter why.
Regret just made sense in this thought experiment.

[Bill Casey]

If you pick Synthesis and Bioware ever makes a new Mass Effect game set 100 or 1,000 years from now, everyone in your game should have glowing green eyes and skin...

[Orthodox Infidel]

Pottumuusi wrote...

You are an omniscient god.
You see a horrible mass murderer getting away with it.
One day he decides to go and live as a hermit in the middle of the wilderness, and you know with absolute certainty that he repents his actions and will never do anything evil ever again.

What do you do?

I punish him in the most public fashion possible to discourage future horrible mass murderers from existing.

(Side note: If I'm an omniscient god, why did I allow this horrible mass murderer to start his career in the first place? Don't answer that; it's a tangent).

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 08 avril 2012 - 08:22 .

[Bill Casey]

Pottumuusi wrote...

you know that he will never kill people again

...how?

[SpiffsGhost]

Synthesis is not a bad or immoral choice, though that is your opinion and I can respect that. Not everyone thinks that way. I see Synthesis as the way to propel the galaxy forward and out of the cycle that holds it back from true advancement of life. None of the choices in the end are easy to make, and that was the intention of the writers. If they didn't implement the "Geth and EDI will die" into the Destroy choice, then everyone would choose it.

Synthesis is the best way to preserve life in a form that creates equality between all species. It doesn't "homogenize" anything, because life still retains the organic genetic variation. It is also a natural endpoint to life in the galaxy (alluded to throughout the series): the Geth wish to reach a point where they feel equal to organics, and organics want a better way of life so they infuse themselves with synthetic material. You may say, "But they should be able to do that of their own free will!" and I would tend to agree, but given the scope of the war and the cyclic nature of the galaxy, I doubt life would get to that point before an organic extinction even occured.

It may seem immoral for some average joe to just say, "Hey, I'm gonna genetically molest everyone!", but if you put this in the context of the scope of the war and the immediate situation of the galaxy in the end of ME3 then it becomes more obvious (to me anyway) as the right choice. In either of the two other scenarios the cycle will continue to proceed unchecked, and life (organic life, anyway) will likely be exterminated. Why waste time trying to advance life to the natural endpoint of synthesis when you can simply get there and move on. Saying that synthesis will halt technological advancement is patently untrue, and if anything it will accelerate advancement at an unprecedented rate. The things that can be accomplished with the galaxy united (that includes the reapers, which are now equal partners in the galactic community) is unknowable, but will likely propel life into other galaxies in short order, and better to be a united front when we do so, because you don't know what is waiting for us there.

These are my thoughts in defense of Synthesis. You are more than welcome to not agree. That's why I love this game.

- Spiff

[Quietness]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Quietness wrote...

EvilMind wrote...

So Shepard should have asked every single life form in galaxy if they prefer synthesis or not, so god forbid, he wont make that choice for them? I believe that synthesis, as they said, is the final evolution and it has many obvious benefits. I dont see any reason why anyone would turn that down

take a moment and see what happens when you add a foreign species to an ecosystem .... now think about what would happen when the whole ecosystem goes foreign...

nuff said.

I don't like synthesis or Mr. EvilMind's argument, but I think you're being a bit over dramatic about the negative consequences to ecosystems. They'd change, yes, but there's no reason to believe the immediate or even near-future outcome is EVERYTHING DIES. Living things and ecosystems do remarkable jobs at adapting to all sorts of changes.

Im not saying it will all die out, but i cant imagine it being able to substain much life as something that takes long periods of time to establish (food chain) is disolved. We also dont know what will happen with viruses that could sweep across worlds (who knows how being synthetic can change their ability to survive/multiply) unchecked...

[EvilMind]

Tritium315 wrote...

EvilMind wrote...

I have no idea what are you talking about, I think Synthesis is best option. So far I dont see any good argument against it in this thread. I'd love to hear facts why you think its bad, only facts, not vague assumptions

That's pretty idiotic statement. The only thing you can get is speculation and assumption since we barely know anything about synthesis to begin with. I may as well ask you for facts as to why it's good, only facts, not vague assumptions.

If we're not allowed to make any assumption at all, then Kid said its the final form of evolution. Basically you're saying "evoluiton is bad", I dont think so, thats why I think its the best option

Modifié par EvilMind, 08 avril 2012 - 08:24 .

[Pottumuusi]

Bill Casey wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

you know that he will never kill people again

...how?

In this though experiment you are an omniscient god.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 08 avril 2012 - 08:28 .

[Orthodox Infidel]

Bill Casey wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

you know that he will never kill people again

...how?

His hypothetical said "You are an omniscient god." Omniscient means "all-knowing."

[Eudaemonium]

Geth_Huntha wrote...

Eudaemonium wrote...

I tend to view Sythesis as the 'best' ending, in the whole 'grantign transcendence' and countless indeterminable benefits way that Bioware likely intended it. However, all these benefits are an unknown quantity, they more-or-less have to be due to the nature of the ending.

However, it is, like many people state and for all of the reasons, utterly morally reprehensible. This is why I, personally, can't in good conscience pick it. I cna't really imagine constructign a Sheprd who would pick it either, because the theme is never explored in any way in the game. This ending worked in Deus Ex, because it was a principle theme of, guess what? Deus Ex. It was also personal to JC Denton. It didn't suddenly merge all of humanity with Helios against their will.

You've obviously never played Deus Ex: Invisible War, lol.

Sorry, what? I can't hear yooouuu!

I haven't actually played IW. I started it but just didn't like it much. Regardless of what actuallly happened, though, merging everyone was not the decision you were asked to make in DX.

[Orthodox Infidel]

EvilMind wrote...

If we're not allowed to make any assumption at all, then Kid said its the final form of evolution. Basically you're saying "evoluiton is bad", I dont think so, thats why I think its the best option

"Final form of evolution" is a statement that makes no sense; evolution will never have a "final form" unless all life dies.

[Raiil]

Kid also believes that mass galactic genocide was an acceptable solution to a percieved threat, I'm not sure we should be taking his logic or facts at face value.

[Geth_Huntha]

Pottumuusi wrote...

You are an omniscient god.
You see a horrible mass murderer getting away with it.
One day he decides to go and live as a hermit in the middle of the wilderness, and you know with absolute certainty that he repents his actions and will never do anything evil ever again.

What do you do?

I like to think I'm a nice guy and want to say if he truely regrets his actions than leave him be, but it wouldn't be just up to me. I would have to take into account the victims left behind, both living and dead. I would not kill him personally but would see him turned into the proper authorities so that justice can be done.