296 réponses à ce sujet

[Skyblade012]

Pottumuusi wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

You are an omniscient god.
You see a horrible mass murderer getting away with it.
One day he decides to go and live as a hermit in the middle of the wilderness, and you know with absolute certainty that he repents his actions and will never do anything evil ever again.

What do you do?

We know that the Reapers regret anything how?
Do they even deserve forgiveness? No matter what they think they are doing, "ascending" us or not, they are vile and cruel. They torture and terrorise innocent beings for fun. They puncture colony domes and leave people to suffocate. They experiment on people and mash them into horrific creatures to use as foot soldiers.

They simply do not deserve to be free.

The purpose of this though experiment was just to see if you favor punishing criminals or rehabilitating them, and to see if you think criminals should be punished just for revenge, even if it serves no purpose.

If the reapers follow the starchild's twisted logic then they should have no reason to kill people after the synthesis.

Except the Reaper's don't follow the starchild's logic.

"Organic life is a genetic mutation.  An accident.  You exist because we allow it, and you will end, because we demand it.  We are the end of everything.  You cannot escape your doom."

They just want to kill stuff.

Also, as has already been proven multiple times, synthesis in no way prevents the creation of more pure synthetics in the future, so the Reapers still have reason to keep on killing things to prevent the rise of pure synthetics.


And, to those talking about the "benefits" of synthesis:  Joker still limps in the Synthesis ending.  What benefits do you think we get if fusing technology into someone can't even strengthen their bones?

[Geth_Huntha]

EvilMind wrote...

By the definition Synthesis would mean that Organics gain all advantages and disadvantages that Synthetics have, right? There are tons of advantages that Synthetics have like immortality / communication speed and etc., there are some disadvantages, but I doubt that they're signifficant to compare to all advantages.

So Synthesis means Organics lose most of their flaws. They dont lose free will or ability to adapt, they're still organic life but with all advantages of synthetics. Maybe Kid is wrong about "final evolution", but its definately next step

You do realise that seeing how the organics in that ending are still, well, mostly orgainc that they would probably still age and die, right? Never did starbrat once say that synthesis would grant immortality to anyone, only that everyone's DNA would have a little bit of the others. Joker was still limping because he still had his shi**y human legs.

[Meltemph]

By the definition Synthesis would mean that Organics gain all advantages and disadvantages that Synthetics have, right?

"New DNA" is what was created, nobody knows what that means, but you cant change a species on a molecular level like that without changing its nature and by changing its nature you are changing what that person is.

Your idea behind what synthesis gives, comes off as incredibly fanciful. If anything it will just make things worse, since now anything they do that is bad, will be x times as bad as before, assuming they are "faster, stronger, smarter". Ya, they dont lose free will, you change what they are, essentially changing them on every important level.

Honestly though, it is HARD to get into an argument about synthesis without talking about how stupid the idea is in terms of it being able to happen. It goes from evolution to creation(magic).

[SpiffsGhost]

wright1978 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

"No glands. Replaced by tech. No digestive system. Replaced by tech. No soul. Replaced by tech."
- Mordin Solus

Yep another great reason not to choose synthesis.

This was in reference to the Collectors, not what I would call an even mix of organic/synthetic life. They were also under direct contol by the reapers. You can't assume that we're all turned into mindless husks in the synthesis ending. The Normandy crew still looks pretty self-aware, not robotic. But if that's what you believe then I can understand why you wouldn't choose it.

- Spiff

[anlk92]

EvilMind wrote...

By the definition Synthesis would mean that Organics gain all advantages and disadvantages that Synthetics have, right? There are tons of advantages that Synthetics have like immortality / communication speed and etc., there are some disadvantages, but I doubt that they're signifficant to compare to all advantages.

So Synthesis means Organics lose most of their flaws. They dont lose free will or ability to adapt, they're still organic life but with all advantages of synthetics. Maybe Kid is wrong about "final evolution", but its definately next step

Here's the thing. That's completely your own personal view. You just shaped every life form in the galaxy in a permanent way solely based on your beliefs without their consent. That is horrible.

You don't have any factual knowledge as to what synthesis will accomplish you're simply assuming what it will do and even if it ends up doing what you think it will, that is still not a decision you can force upon everyone.

[Pottumuusi]

The Angry One wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...


You still didn't answer if you thought we should get revenge on criminals.
In my opinion the only reason to imprison murderers is to keep them from killing people.
You can even give them real food and show them a movie every weekend. It's not like anyone who is ****ed up enough in the head to become a murderer is going to be scared out of it by the possibility of punishment.

It is not a question of revenge. You cannot let someone who's commited crimes on that scale to spend their lives free. It is a disservice to all of their victims.

I don't think there are any good reasons to go after murderers if you know they wont commit any more crimes.
Of course this isn't of relevance in real life, since there is always the possibility that even an old and pathetic Pol Pot will pick up a gun and shoot someone.

However, this kind of thinking is relevant in both my hypothetical and the synthesis ending.

In my hypothetical, you are omniscient and you know this guy wont do anything ever again.

In the syntesis ending it makes sense that the reapers wont attack anyone ever again since the starchild said that this will end the cycle.

So if you think that the reapers should be punished somehow, or that they are getting away with it, it is a question of revenge.

[WilliamDracul88]

The Angry One wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

More importantly, do you think that criminals should be punished for revenge, even if it doesn't serve any purpose and no concievable benefit can come from it?

There's no statute of limitations on mass murder.
These crimes must be accounted for, one way or another.

But, The Angry One, War is Hell, remember?

Sorry, not trying to disrespect, but apparently you must think that they are good genocides and bad genocides; more so, good genocides are just "necessary acts of self defense".

Yeah, that comment yesterday totally appalled me; I have had my own share of war to not truly HATE that Sherman's assertion.

[Merwanor]

Yeah Synthesis is the worst ending of them all, it is just moraly wrong. How would anyone like if some crazy scientist made everyone on earth grow 2 extra arms. It might give you an advantage from before, as you could clap in stereo, but I doubt people would be happy about it.

Control is the best ending if you disregard the Indoc Theory. Citadel is intact, and Shepard could use the Reapers to build new Relays and help the rest of the world rebuild, though I bet people would not welcome such help. But then Shepard could just send them all into the nearest sun so you acomplish the same thing as the Red ending. Yes it is moraly wrong to control a whole race, but I would take that over killing all synthetics.

Also Shepard kinda becomes the catalyst, which is a better catalyst than the Starchild.

[SpiffsGhost]

anlk92 wrote...


Here's the thing. That's completely your own personal view. You just shaped every life form in the galaxy in a permanent way solely based on your beliefs without their consent. That is horrible.

You don't have any factual knowledge as to what synthesis will accomplish you're simply assuming what it will do and even if it ends up doing what you think it will, that is still not a decision you can force upon everyone.

And that is your own personal view. Just as equally valid as those that choose Synthesis. Given the scope of the galactic cycle, and the choices provided, you are going to do something morally gray no matter which way you slice it (Control = Slavery; Destroy = Genocide).

- Spiff

Modifié par SpiffsGhost, 08 avril 2012 - 08:57 .

[The Angry One]

WilliamDracul88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

More importantly, do you think that criminals should be punished for revenge, even if it doesn't serve any purpose and no concievable benefit can come from it?

There's no statute of limitations on mass murder.
These crimes must be accounted for, one way or another.

But, The Angry One, War is Hell, remember?

Sorry, not trying to disrespect, but apparently you must think that they are good genocides and bad genocides; more so, good genocides are just "necessary acts of self defense".

Yeah, that comment yesterday totally appalled me; I have had my own share of war to not truly HATE that Sherman's assertion.

Because intentional, calculated genocide and having to kill people who won't stop attacking you when you're actively trying to make them stop are totally the same thing.

[Zix13]

EvilMind wrote...

By the definition Synthesis would mean that Organics gain all advantages and disadvantages that Synthetics have, right? There are tons of advantages that Synthetics have like immortality / communication speed and etc., there are some disadvantages, but I doubt that they're signifficant to compare to all advantages.

So Synthesis means Organics lose most of their flaws. They dont lose free will or ability to adapt, they're still organic life but with all advantages of synthetics. Maybe Kid is wrong about "final evolution", but its definately next step

Immortality is not a good thing. Increased lifespan = increased fear of death. Population grows out of control since no one is dying. And no, communication speed is hardly an advantage unless minds are replaced with computers, in which case they are no longer fundamentally organic. 

[The Angry One]

Pottumuusi wrote...

I don't think there are any good reasons to go after murderers if you know they wont commit any more crimes.
Of course this isn't of relevance in real life, since there is always the possibility that even an old and pathetic Pol Pot will pick up a gun and shoot someone.

However, this kind of thinking is relevant in both my hypothetical and the synthesis ending.

In my hypothetical, you are omniscient and you know this guy wont do anything ever again.

In the syntesis ending it makes sense that the reapers wont attack anyone ever again since the starchild said that this will end the cycle.

So if you think that the reapers should be punished somehow, or that they are getting away with it, it is a question of revenge.

So you believe trial, holding to account and incarceration or community service are acts of revenge?
That's a first.

Like I said, Control at least has the possibility of forcing the Reapers to atone for their crimes. Merely "leaving" is not good enough, they are responsible for immense amounts of pain and suffering.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Pottumuusi wrote...

In my opinion the only reason to imprison murderers is to keep them from killing people.

I snipped this line out of your conversation with The Angry One, because it made me realize something.

With Control and Destroy, Shepard ends the Reaper threat himself. It could be seen as throwing a mass murderer in jail or shooting him in the head, respectively. Assuming you don't pull an Illusive Man and use the Reapers for Human Space Fascism, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

With Synthesis, you change the nature of all life, and remove the motive for the Reapers to be reaping. They decide that they don't have to go Reaping anymore, so they stop. You've ended the Reaper threat to this galaxy. But they haven't actually changed their mind about anything.

The Crucible is very powerful, but it is safe to assume that it's abilities are limited in some way; it's possible it only affects our galaxy and no others. It may be possible for the Reapers to go fly away to some other galaxy, considering the speeds at which they can travel and their seemingly infinite patience. If you pick Synthesis, what's to stop them from flying to Andromeda and starting up cycles there if the organics living there haven't built killer synthetics yet and aren't smart enough to build their own Crucible?

Oh, and I'm assuming that the Reapers wouldn't build a Crucible themselves to "synthesize" life in Andromeda, simply because they would have done that in our galaxy if they really thought that was the best idea.

[PeaceMack]

Yeah, gene raping every organism in the galaxy is a pretty horrific thing to do. Whether or not there are advantages to having technological implants is irrelevant. The problem is that synthesis rewrites every single organism in the galaxy without their permission.

It's a plan worthy of a megalomaniacal supervillain.

[Geth_Huntha]

SpiffsGhost wrote...

anlk92 wrote...


Here's the thing. That's completely your own personal view. You just shaped every life form in the galaxy in a permanent way solely based on your beliefs without their consent. That is horrible.

You don't have any factual knowledge as to what synthesis will accomplish you're simply assuming what it will do and even if it ends up doing what you think it will, that is still not a decision you can force upon everyone.

And that is your own personal view. Just as equally valid as those that choose Synthesis. Given the scope of the galactic cycle, and the choices provided, you are going to do something morally gray no matter which way you slice it (Control = Slavery; Destroy = Genocide).

- Spiff

This.

No choice is clear-cut, to me it's a matter of what's the least evil thing to do.

[Pottumuusi]

The Angry One wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

I don't think there are any good reasons to go after murderers if you know they wont commit any more crimes.
Of course this isn't of relevance in real life, since there is always the possibility that even an old and pathetic Pol Pot will pick up a gun and shoot someone.

However, this kind of thinking is relevant in both my hypothetical and the synthesis ending.

In my hypothetical, you are omniscient and you know this guy wont do anything ever again.

In the syntesis ending it makes sense that the reapers wont attack anyone ever again since the starchild said that this will end the cycle.

So if you think that the reapers should be punished somehow, or that they are getting away with it, it is a question of revenge.

So you believe trial, holding to account and incarceration or community service are acts of revenge?
That's a first.

I never said that, or at least that's not what I meant to say.

Could you clarify what you mean with "holding to account"?

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 08 avril 2012 - 09:00 .

[EvilMind]

anlk92 wrote...

Here's the thing. That's completely your own personal view. You just shaped every life form in the galaxy in a permanent way solely based on your beliefs without their consent. That is horrible.

You don't have any factual knowledge as to what synthesis will accomplish you're simply assuming what it will do and even if it ends up doing what you think it will, that is still not a decision you can force upon everyone.

We dont have any factual knowledge that destroy or controll will do any good either, and we make those choices based on assumptions. What makes synthesis any different?

According to Kid, destroy option 100% will lead to life extinction in the future, why its not morally difficult for majority to pick it? We dont know if Kid is lying, its 50/50 and if you're wrong - you're responsible for the death of whole galaxy

Modifié par EvilMind, 08 avril 2012 - 09:05 .

[anlk92]

SpiffsGhost wrote...

anlk92 wrote...


Here's the thing. That's completely your own personal view. You just shaped every life form in the galaxy in a permanent way solely based on your beliefs without their consent. That is horrible.

You don't have any factual knowledge as to what synthesis will accomplish you're simply assuming what it will do and even if it ends up doing what you think it will, that is still not a decision you can force upon everyone.

And that is your own personal view. Just as equally valid as those that choose Synthesis. Given the scope of the galactic cycle, and the choices provided, you are going to do something morally gray no matter which way you slice it (Control = Slavery; Destroy = Genocide).

- Spiff

I'm not defending the other two choices. None of the choices are morally gray, they're flat out unethical and wrong.

Edit:^^ @evilmind At least in the other two options you don't directly inflict a major change on every single being in the galaxy and leave the mass murderers free to do what they please. As I said I think all three choices are wrong but to me synthesis is the worst of them.

Modifié par anlk92, 08 avril 2012 - 09:05 .

[firebladec]

putting aside for a second that it isnt consistent, or make much sense (but neither do the other two)

The principle of Synthesis is comparable to trans<insertSpecies>ism or augmentation

As we are talking Deus Ex mechana here (space magic) this could work at any or all levels

so there is little basis to assume it Homogenises anything
as to "new DNA" this would have to be a metaphor (to short to be actual explanation)

For this to work at all, and not render every species a cancerous blob of autoimmune reactions. it would have to affect every individual differently at the cellular level.

To merge Biological and Synthetic in any meaningful or semi-permentent way would require something analgous to DNA, (Assuming DNA is the "blueprint" for building a physical body) that can replicate both biological and "Synthetic" structures. (e.g nanites) biological nanites exist in nature (viruses or ribosomes)

further to this Synthetic vs Biological is an inaccurate comparrision
the only real usable comparisions are biological vs mechanical or synthetic vs natural

Synthetic can be both biological, mechanical or hybrid (see recent research into synthetic biological microorganisms)  synthetic refers to origin not nature.

so it you perform synthesis (merged biological and mechanical) in any way that is self replicating then the result is either permenently synthetic (the origional was created via concious act) or natural requires no concious "interference" to occur (edit: depends on your perspective)

the synthesis ending has so little information about the nature of the process that its not good or bad its just open. it could vary from creating "the borg" to creating "advanced" life with no specific physical form e.g enhanced geth that could use any "frame" or server.  any life that could "upload" into a geth, turian, krogan, asari elcor or even a reaper " frame" or just sit inside a server "virtual" environment.

Synthesis could take so many different forms that trying to determine good or bad is futile.

as to the reapers or the "starchild" they both are (or were) beyond good or bad (on human terms), punishment would serve no purpose, nor would the reapers see it as such. So this comes down to vengence, not justice.

Is destroying the reapers necessary for survival? maybe, but we are in the relms of space magic here.

is killing the reapers any less genoside than anything else? justified genoside maybe,  but do you want to fall to that level?

There is little to no basis to determine if the "startchild" is lieing or or truthful.

is the reaper "transendence" truthful?
do they upload you from you body before they disolve it?
are they like a geth consensus, entire uploaded civilisations in a reaper shaped server?

its all perspective, from peoples perspective its horrfic, but what about afterwards does anyone know?
would you believe them if they told you the truth?

Comparisons to saren a somewhat valid, but again there is too much missing information, sure being "augmented" by the reapers is a bad idea but there is no way to validly comapre the two processes.

Modifié par firebladec, 08 avril 2012 - 09:05 .

[TheLostGenius]

A machine is not a murdered. That would be like calling a gun a murderer...its the person that pulls the trigger...whoever is behind the Reapers...

[MOELANDER]

I cannae push it enough: As a german I hate synthesis because the whole "Pinnacle of Evolution" crap this ending gives us reminds all too much of the hatespeeches a certain Adolf did 60 years back with us germans being the "Master Race" - the pinnacle of humanity you might say.

[WilliamDracul88]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...


[/quote]

Because intentional, calculated genocide and having to kill people who won't stop attacking you when you're actively trying to make them stop are totally the same thing.

[/quote]

Let me fix something:

"and having to erradicate all sentient life of a planet populated by billions, including, I INSIST, childs, babys, elders, non-combatants, and then letting THE FASTER OF THEM to run away" are totally the same thing.

Sorry pal, but if tomorrow the machines rebel in London, I would be there fighting for humankind, which is you, and me, and every other poster.

[The Angry One]

Pottumuusi wrote...

I never said that, or at least that's not what I meant to say.

Could you clarify what you mean with "holding to account"?

Put on trial, made to pay for their crimes, made to help the societies they wronged, or punished with death.

As I've said, Harbinger alone is a war criminal of epic proportions, who delighted with enslaving and experimenting on innocent beings. What right does he to fly off and live, presumably for the rest of time, somewhere out there?
Even if he is no longer a threat, there are quadrillions of deaths on his cuttlefish head.

[Pottumuusi]

The Angry One wrote...

made to pay for their crimes

That sure sounds a lot like vengeance.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 08 avril 2012 - 09:06 .

[Geth_Huntha]

TheLostGenius wrote...

A machine is not a murdered. That would be like calling a gun a murderer...its the person that pulls the trigger...whoever is behind the Reapers...

But the Reapers have demonstrated some level of intelligence even if they are under the control of star-child. The last time I checked I couldn't hold a conversation with a pistol... Though I'd bet it would win in an argument.