296 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Hello]

Since it's an interactive story, it's up to the gamer to choose which is best or worse out of the three.

But yes there's a consensus among many that the synthesis is the worst of the three choices. Control being no better.

It's not hard to see why Destroy is the better one as that's what Shepard and the Alliance were set out to do from the start.

If BioWare did plan to give such choices in the end (Control and Synthesis in addition to Destroy), they should have better prepared the player from ME1/ME2 which they didn't, most likely because they hadn't planned such an ending from back then. That's why the timing of the 3 given choices toward the end feels off and forced, making it hard for players (esp. the fans who 'know' the series well) to accept and see any logic.

Synthesis is what the reapers wanted to do all along. Merging organics with synthetics to form one nation and rid of all diversity, that is precisely the Reapers.

It'd be interesting if BioWare publishes the statistics as to how many gamers choose what out of the three choices.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 08 avril 2012 - 09:36 .

[katamuro]

apart from all kinds of other possibly horrible things yes. Reapers manage to kill trillions and get away with it all thanks to Starchild law firm.

[PowerExtreme]

TGOW wrote...

http://social.biowar.../index/10036548

This thread.

thanks

[Kawamura]

DJBare wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

DJBare wrote...
Is it really so hard for people to grasp you gave the Reapers exactly what they wanted by choosing synthesis?

See, I don't know if that's true or not.

It's really not that difficult, what have Reapers been doing for eons?, they take advanced races, turn them into genetic goo and add it to themselves, "organic merged with synthetic"

It could be the difference between me eating a cow so I have the nutrients to make a baby or me merging with the cow to make... 

I dunno. Glowing green minotaurs. Crap. I hate the Synthesis ending. I don't smoke weed, that must be the ...

...

...

Oh my god. I don't smoke weed. Synthesis is green. It all makes sense.  

[The Angry One]

firebladec wrote...

let off? maybe, maybe not, you dont how "synthesis" would effect the reapers, it had to do something to them as they would not have stopped, suppose for the sake of arguement it that it gave them a conscience, and they had to spend an eternity of guilt? not that i have a basis for this, but there is little basis for any of it.

but in the long run what does it matter if they stop and don't do it again? is there any benefit other than making you feel better?

the point of justice is to protect society, not make people feel better, if an action goes beyond what is Necessary for that then it is not justice

It won't change the Reapers at all. They're already hybrids.
The only difference it makes is that the new hybrids aren't on the Catalyst's arbitrary list of viable targets. For now.

But these are still unrepentant genocidal death machines who have just been set free to do what they like.
They not only don't deserve this freedom, but they are still a threat. Any of them could choose to attack anybody they wished, or like was said before, they could fly to another galaxy that still has pure organics and attack them.
Harbinger revels in what he does, do you think that will just stop?

[DJBare]

kimuji wrote...You still do what they wanted to. The Starchild says the synthesis is a mean to prevent wars between organics and synthetics, which is precisely the Reapers goal (according to what he says about synthetics wiping out organics and the "created rebels against creator" thing). With the blue ending you force them to retreat, with the red you destroy them. But with the green ending you don't force the Reapers to retreat they do that by themselves so that means they AGREE. They accept that solution so yes, you gave them what they wanted.

Just like to point out here, the reapers don't retreat "All organic and synthetic life is merged"; as I said, with synthesis, the entire galaxy is now Reaper, it just looks prettier.

Modifié par DJBare, 08 avril 2012 - 09:38 .

[jengelb1]

firebladec wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

firebladec wrote...

it is vengence when the action goes beyond acting as a deterent or to protecting society from something, deterents wouldnt work against the reapers, protection maybe, but not if there isnt an alternative that doesnt require it.

So they should be let off, after all the pain and suffering that they enjoyed causing simply because hybrids are not on their list of viable targets?
That's appalling.

let off? maybe, maybe not, you dont how "synthesis" would effect the reapers, it had to do something to them as they would not have stopped, suppose for the sake of arguement it that it gave them a conscience, and they had to spend an eternity of guilt? not that i have a basis for this, but there is little basis for any of it.

but in the long run what does it matter if they stop and don't do it again? is there any benefit other than making you feel better?

the point of justice is to protect society, not make people feel better, if an action goes beyond what is Necessary for that then it is not justice

Are you willing to bet the future of the galaxy that they won't do it again?

They've been doing it for millions of years. I see no reason to believe anything they say. I seen even less reason to believe the words of their creator.

If synthesis gave them a conscience, that would be far crueler than death could ever be. The reapers will suffer unimaginable psychological torment until they kill themselves to make it stop. I think I feel better about synthesis now. Thanks

[firebladec]

kimuji wrote...

forsaken gamer wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Is it really so hard for people to grasp you gave the Reapers exactly what they wanted by choosing synthesis?

Not necessarily.

The Catalyst stated that the Crucible changed it and opened it up to new possibilities.  This was from the work of the
Protheans and other extinct races, and by us, when the Crucible was designed and built.  They could have changed/infected the Catalyst's programming.  The Catalyst could possibly be rendered to simply being the messenger for the architects of the Crucible, by giving us these three choices.

You still do what they wanted to. The Starchild says the synthesis is a mean to prevent wars between organics and synthetics, which is precisely the Reapers goal (according to what he says about synthetics wiping out organics and the "created rebels against creator" thing). With the blue ending you force them to retreat, with the red you destroy them. But with the green ending you don't force the Reapers to retreat they do that by themselves so that means they AGREE. They accept that solution so yes, you gave them what they wanted.

just because it is the reapers goal does not necessarily make it bad.  

is a war between synthetics and "organics"  good?

Sure the reapers methods are nasty to put it mildly, that doesnt necessarily make the goal a bad thing.

Modifié par firebladec, 08 avril 2012 - 09:39 .

[AxisEvolve]

SpiffsGhost wrote...
Then why even play the game? You're making "moral" decisions at every major point in the entire series. You have just invalidated any reason to play this amazing game.

- Spiff

Not really. Almost every moral decision made in Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3 is with your squadmates standing right behind you voicing their opinion on the matter.

I think it's safe to say that the merging of all synthetic and organic life is of a larger scale then any other decision you could have made.

[Eudaemonium]

DJBare wrote...

DocDoomII wrote...

Is it really so hard for people to grasp you are giving BioWare exactly what they wanted by speculating this much?

Reapers merging organics with themselves is in no way speculation, it's what they do.

In the immortal words of Harbinger: "We are your genetic destiny."

[Baronesa]

So many things happening on this thread... I don't even know where to start.

Pottumuusi... No.... holding someone accountable for their actions, and giving a rational and proportional punishment to them is NOT vengeance. The fact that they can or cannot commit crimes int he future has no bearing in the decision... you CANNOT judge what has not happened yet... that would be equivalent of punishing someone for a possible future action. "This person will kill in the future, so we will throw him/her in jail" That is incredibly horrible... What you consider "vengeance" is not such, as long as the delivered punishment remains proportional to the damage committed. That is why not every crime has the same punishment, and why some crimes have excessive punishment in the eyes of people.

On the main topic. Yes Synhtesis is horrible... it is the negation of diversity, it is affirming and praising an ideology that considers diversity as something dangerous and undesirable...

Modifié par Baronesa, 08 avril 2012 - 09:42 .

[Pottumuusi]

The Angry One wrote...

they are still a threat. Any of them could choose to attack anybody they wished, or like was said before, they could fly to another galaxy that still has pure organics and attack them.
Harbinger revels in what he does, do you think that will just stop?

Now I actually agree with you because you are giving a valid reason for why the reapers can't be just let go, instead of just an appeal to emotion and a vengeful bloodlust.

[jstme]

Green ending is awful. There is no possibility to partially fuse organic life froms with synthetic, because it will always make organic part of this chimera unneeded, redundant. The biological/chemical/physical laws governing nature part lead individual to inescapable death while trying to maintain the continuing adaptation of life forms in general.

For egocentric "oh we will be immortal and have built in cool gadgets" the payment is termination of ones species and future generations (what is the need - you are perfect and can adapt by installing new part or removinf parts completely). Not to mention suicide of the life form that is changed by that green magic, in any case.
Because even exact (but immortal) replica of you with artificial organs functioning just as your own not to mention upgrdaded stuff - will no longer be you. And green ending is applying it to every life form in galaxy.
It is death of nature.
This is so wrong. Instead of liquifying people, green ending judges all nature in galaxy to death by obsolition.
And yeah, reapers and their godlike handler do not answer for what they did. I mean there was always another option(s). Not 16 ,but at least 3 other options.
Horribly murdering so many people due to simple stupidity while assuming self-omnipotency cannot be forgiven.

[nitefyre410]

/ Epic facepalm

This is why they should not have done this Synthesis restart DNA Space Magic nonsense because in the last game we saw people getting turning to grey slush to make a Reaper. Now we have the Catalyst in it infinite genius offering an option to rewrite DNA in Synthetic/organic hybrid. Now this clash directly with what you audience has seen in the last game and there is no damn explanation. Then we are just to accept it.

Nice concept idea - wrong got damn game for it...great now I hate these endings even more... "Artistic" my ass. 

OH ... And  it does not even  resolve the damn conflict any because its not a issue of what  they made of its and issue of how you view what they are made of... 

The true  question at the core of it all is -  "What determines sometthing being alive?" 

Or as Legion said  "Does this unit have a soul?" and you don't have be religous  to understand that nature of that question. its a basic right to life.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 08 avril 2012 - 09:43 .

[Richard 060]

Synthesis really doesn't make sense on a functional level, either - whether we're talking about real evolution, or the technical details of the Mass Effect universe, it gets undermined totally when you apply even a smattering of logical thinking:


1. Evolution doesn't work that way.

It'd take a thesis to explain the rationale behind it, but simply put: there is no 'final' stage in evolution. Evolution isn't going to 'stop' at some arbitrary fixed point, and there's no pre-determined goal to it, either. Species only ever become increasingly diverse, and so it is fundamentally impossible that all life would end up converging on the same 'end stage'. So the Catalyst is either completely wrong, or is talking about some kind of forced 'transmogrification', NOT evolution.

Similarly, evolution occurs over generations - individual lifeforms do not 'morph' or transform when they 'evolve'. Whatever the Catalyst does to Joker and EDI (and everyone else), does not 'evolve' them to a higher state, since they barely change, other than a green glow. That'd be like 'evolving' a fish to become human, and simply giving it legs and opposable thumbs - ultimately, it'd still be a fish, and therefore nothing more than what it was before, albeit with some traits of a higher stage in the evolutionary process.


2. Synthetics don't work that way, either.

At least, not in the Mass Effect universe, they don't. Synthesis seems to treat EDI and the Geth (the only synthetic sentients we know of) like traditional robots (Data, C-3PO, Kryten) - artifical humanoids. We need to remember that actually, they're AI - computer programs, and simply making use of humanoid bodies to interact with the outside world. Even if 'synthesis' alters their bodies so fundamentally that they have a form of DNA included (which is a hell of a feat, if you think about it), the AI issue brings up some massive complications.

For EDI, they're glaringly obvious - we must remember that ultimately, she 'exists' in the AI core of the Normandy. That is her 'body', and the humanoid form she uses is merely an extension of that - remember, it can only function outside the ship within a fixed range. How exactly does the 'synthesis beam' know to also transfer her entire matrix to the humanoid body, and NOT make the Normandy's computer systems 'part organic', too? Or is part of her still bound to the ship? Someone clearly didn't think that through...

With the Geth, it's even worse, since they're even less 'attached' to physical form than EDI. Geth swap between physical 'platforms' as a matter of course, so the notion of 'synthesis' 'binding' them to bodies to make them like organics would be hugely limiting. Would they still be able to re-upload themselves to the collective, and move freely between synth-organic bodies? Or would they be trapped in the forms they happened to be in at the time? And would they even be 'indivduals', per se? Or, like Legion, would they be gestalt entities, consisting of several (perhaps hundreds or thousands) Geth programs?

With these thoughts in mind, there's another issue - if 'synthesis' is meant to unite organics and synthetics, will AI-based synthetics be limited in the same way organics are, or will organics gain the ability to transcend physical form in the same way as synthetics? And would they want to, or be able to cope with such a jarring change of existence? Or, is the transformation more superficial than anything, and the 'mostly synthetics' and 'mostly organics' remain fundamentally different? In which case, what exactly is the point of it all?


3. The Crucible created new ...possibilities, eh?

Simple point, relating back to evolution - if 'synthesis' is made possible to the Catalyst by the presence of the Crucible, how exactly is it a new 'possibility' to jump-start a process that is ...the inevitable end point of evolution? Surely it'd happen eventually anyway (granted, over millions of years, but when you're as old as the Catalyst, that's a moot point). Unless, of course, it's dependent on the Crucible - in which case, it's not an inevitablity...

There's also the 'small' matter of the evolutionary process over millions of years and countless generations, and how the 'synthesis wave' could magically predict this, and replicate the effect instantly. Not to mention the problem that if the result is meant to be the rapid 'evolution' of all existing life forms, then why are they all so different? Why is EDI primarily mechanical and Joker all fleshy? Surely, if life were to 'evolve' to such a unified point (ignoring the aforementioned impossibility of it all), the resulting 'species' would be of one form? A true hybrid, not 'mostly' one way or the other? Again, it does beg the question, "what's the point?"...

And wait - didn't the Catalyst say that the 'inevitable' result of the 'synthetics/organics' question would be 'chaos'? Because nothing spells 'chaos' better than the homogenous unification of both groups into one hybrid form... I've said before that the Catalyst is full of wild assumptions and outright nonsense, but this takes the biscuit...


4. Where does one draw the line?

So, does 'synthesis' affect all life, organic and synthetic? Because I see no sign in the end cutscene that living things like plants and trees have been affected. What about mechs? Are YMIR/LOKI mechs now merged as well? Or is there some cut-off point that only affects sentient species?

If that's the case, then isn't the whole thing a failure? Bear in mind that it's meant to be the solution to the 'synthetics vs. organics' 'problem' - but if pre-sentient life is left untouched, what's to say that pure organics won't evolve eventually, with all the flaws and foilbles (...and potential to create those pesky synthetics) of before? We could end up with a new status quo - with synthetics, organics, and the hybrids created by 'synthesis'. Would we end up with the same 'chaos' that the Catalyst is hell-bent on preventing? It's another glaring oversight, and symptomatic of the big problem with 'synthesis' - that whoever wrote it didn't bother to think out the ramifications of what must have seemed a 'neat idea' at the time.

Modifié par Richard 060, 08 avril 2012 - 09:41 .

[jengelb1]

firebladec wrote...

kimuji wrote...

forsaken gamer wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Is it really so hard for people to grasp you gave the Reapers exactly what they wanted by choosing synthesis?

Not necessarily.

The Catalyst stated that the Crucible changed it and opened it up to new possibilities.  This was from the work of the
Protheans and other extinct races, and by us, when the Crucible was designed and built.  They could have changed/infected the Catalyst's programming.  The Catalyst could possibly be rendered to simply being the messenger for the architects of the Crucible, by giving us these three choices.

You still do what they wanted to. The Starchild says the synthesis is a mean to prevent wars between organics and synthetics, which is precisely the Reapers goal (according to what he says about synthetics wiping out organics and the "created rebels against creator" thing). With the blue ending you force them to retreat, with the red you destroy them. But with the green ending you don't force the Reapers to retreat they do that by themselves so that means they AGREE. They accept that solution so yes, you gave them what they wanted.

just because it is the reapers goal does not necessarily make it bad.  

is a war between synthetics and "organics"  good?

Sure the reapers methods are nasty to put it mildly, that doesnt necessarily make the goal a bad thing.

Ah yes "war between synthetics and organics". We have dismissed that claim.

Seriously though, this "total war" they claim to be preventing only exists in the insane minds of the reapers themselves. We didn't need the crucible at all. We needed a s**tload of cyber-thorazine.

[WilliamDracul88]

The Angry One wrote...

YET AGAIN YOU IGNORE THE FACT THAT QUARIANS WERE KILLING QUARIANS.

QUARIANS WERE KILLING QUARIANS.

QUARIANS WERE KILLING QUARIANS.

Comprende yet?

Lo comprendo perfectamente. Tenga usted muy buenas noches .

[savionen]

SpiffsGhost wrote...

anlk92 wrote...



Well synthesis does not have any objective advantages to it. Destroy at least makes sure that the Reaper threat is gone. If you believe Shepard can hold it together, he can find a way to get rid of them completely in the control ending too. But in synthesis you do that change to life without any clear advantages, you're just hoping that the Reapers will now leave you alone forever. What you're doing is basically agreeing to Reapers' terms and doing what they told you to do so that they will hopefully stop their cycle.

Synthesis has no objective advantages? The Reapers leave because there is no reason to reap without the threat of synthetic domination. The Reapers can now be considered allies (or at least equals). Material struggles will be a thing of the past. The bias towards any one species is removed.

- Spiff

Just because all beings are now synthetic/organic mixes doesn't mean they wouldn't need materials. They're obviously not immortal, or at least hold elements of their past. Joker still limps. There are still inferior and superior synthetic/organics.

Racism is generally created because of superficial reasons. There's nothing stopping one group that is more synthetic, or less synthetic, or Synthetic-Turians, or Synthetic-Organic-Geth from thinking they are superior to others.

There is also nothing preventing synthetic-organics from creating pure-synthetics for labor purposes. The reasons robots exist in our current age are because it's easier to have an automated system, that you don't have to think about to do tasks for you. So the idea of creating robots would still be appealing to synthetic-organics.

[Pottumuusi]

Baronesa wrote...

"This person will kill in the future, so we will throw him/her in jail"

Well, if you could know that for certain, which you can't, then yes.

[zennyrpg]

SpiffsGhost wrote...

Synthesis has no objective advantages? The Reapers leave because there is no reason to reap without the threat of synthetic domination. The Reapers can now be considered allies (or at least equals). Material struggles will be a thing of the past. The bias towards any one species is removed.

- Spiff

I don't get it.  Material struggles?  Half synthetics/ organics will never fight amongst themselves over resources?

I agree that synthesis could (if explained in game) have some benefits. I just don't get this one.

[Naoe]

SpiffsGhost wrote...
1. ... The Reapers leave because there is no reason to reap without the threat of synthetic domination.
2. ...Material struggles will be a thing of the past...
3. ...The bias towards any one species is removed.

1. As others said before> What if someone makes new synthetics? There's still plenty of reasons to do it.
2. How so?
3. You're sure? We are all humans, and there seems to be plenty of bias, prejudice and armed conflict here...

[savionen]

forsaken gamer wrote...

In that sense, you could say that they don't get what they wanted.  What they wanted was to keep organics from going extinct.  Synthesis in effect wipes them out.  There are no more organics, only hybrids. 

What's to stop synthetic-organics from creating pure-synthetics? Dumb machines that will do menial tasks to make life easier for synthetic-organics?

The whole concept is that organics will eventually create synthetics, regardless of the situation. So why does turning organics into synthetic-organics change that?

Modifié par savionen, 08 avril 2012 - 09:45 .

[kimuji]

The Angry One wrote...

If you don't believe in the death penalty, then essentially control counts as rehabilitation.
The Reapers can be made to atone for their crimes by rebuilding galactic society - whether they like it or not. It's at least better than flying off to make sandcastles or whatever.

How do you expect to sue, put the Reapers on a trial or punish them? We are not even sure they have any free will. They're not even a civilization (they don't have cilvilians, citizens, art, culture, spirituality etc...). The Starchild basically says they are mere tools (though like everything he says it could also be just a lie). I'm not even sure they can feel guilt. I see them more like a huge technological disaster or natural predators than criminals. Even the Geth are by far a more advanced society than the Reapers.

[Wickwrackscar]

At least there's a small chance they die of boredom, since they have no purpose anymore. Harby certainly doesn't deserve a happy retirement on some tropical beach, living of the royalties from books and movies.

But seriously this raises a good question: How much are the reapers to be held responsible for what they did? Before ME3 they seemed quite indepentent and Sovereign even stated it. With the "resolution" in ME3 they appear to be just tools of starbrat without free will whatsoever. They are more like VIs running a predefined program. If they were truly intelligent, at least some of them would come to question the nature of their own existence. They have millions of years to think about stuff. They would have asked philosphical questions like: "Where do we come from? What is our purpose? Does this reaper have a soul? Why work for this brat? Why all the killing?". I don't think they have free will, so they are not to be held accountable. There is no point in punishing a tool or a weapon, even if it seems lifelike.
The catalyst on the other hand ...

Personally I liked the reapers more when they were not some toys in the hand of a ghost child. When I was just a rudimentary creature of blood and flesh.
I miss you Sovereign ...

Modifié par General Distress, 08 avril 2012 - 09:47 .