189 réponses à ce sujet

[nevar00]

I think not. TIM was trying to find a way to control the Reapers himself without knowing there was a convenient pair of laser nodes on the Citadel that would allow him to do that, and yet he still made it far enough to get the Reapers to attack his facility (which made no sense to me, wasn't he indoctrinated?) so I assume the Protheans were attempting something like that.

[blurr1985]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

Deventh wrote...

Vigil_N7 wrote...

I'd have to disagree. Yes, the people that have been indoctrinated were led to believe they could control the reapers, but as with TIM, the Catalyst actually said they and TIM would never be able to control the reapers, because "we already controlled THEM."

Shepard then asks, "Will I be able to control them?" to which the catalyst replies yes, because Shepard is not indoctrinated.

Maybe he is simply trying to trick you to believe that you're not.

Maybe, maybe not. We have no reason to trust or distrust him, so we can only go by what is currently said

If you take into account my theory, that all the previous Shepard-like beings made the choice to control, thinking they could control the Reapers, then it is pretty evident that that was a lie, because the Reapers are still destroying.

Many (not all) people that chose control chose that because they thought that they will just tell the Reapers to leave or destroy themselves.  This is not what ended up happening, as we all know.

[Pulletlamer]

I don't believe in the indocrination theory, but the Control ending is totally retarded. My thoughts from another thread:

-About the Control ending: The Catalyst says you will control the Reapers, but that you'll die. Also says that "The Illusive Man would never be able to control *us* because *we* already controled him".
Then A) How do we know he isn't lying and already controlling Shepard, trying fool him, and How can Shepard control the Reapers if he's dead.

[blurr1985]

Pulletlamer wrote...

I don't believe in the indocrination theory, but the Control ending is totally retarded. My thoughts from another thread:

-About the Control ending: The Catalyst says you will control the Reapers, but that you'll die. Also says that "The Illusive Man would never be able to control *us* because *we* already controled him".
Then A) How do we know he isn't lying and already controlling Shepard, trying fool him, and How can Shepard control the Reapers if he's dead.

I think its both hilarious and awesome that we think the same thing about the control option, but I belive I.T. and you don't.  That's pretty cool, imo.

[Hudathan]

blurr1985 wrote...

Some might  say, "oh but the crucible never got built, it was built over millions of years.."  But since patterns repeat, then that means the Crucible did get built before, if you go back far enough, perhaps billions of years. You have to expand your scope of time.

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

[Cheopz]

what about "we left the relays and the citadel so organic life can develop the paths we desire"?

could it be, that even the plans for the crucible are going back to the reapers? how would it be that they didn't got lost in some cycle somehow? ^^

[Apollo-XL5]

Xultanis wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

morel142 wrote...


So you're saying it's the Matrix formula? (or Battlestar Galactica)..

All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again...

Your also forgetting Babylon 5, that also hinted that every 1000 years the shadows would appear and destroy the younger races that were considered weak, while strengthing the ones that resisted successfully.  As I said in a previous thread, shepard and sheridan have alot of similarites.
The shadows attempted to bring sheridan to their way of thinking by manipulating him with his wife and telling him some of the truth behind the war, not just the vorlons side of it.  What was it the human allies of the shadows said.
Justin:  you are what they call a nexus, you turn one way and the galaxy will follow you that way.Morden: There is always one that manages to bring the other races together, you have done that, its a credable achievement, but in terms of our goals it is unsuitable.Sheridan: then why dont you just kill me?JUstin: because someone would just replace you(his friends), thats always the problem with creating marytars.  We brought you here so we could talk to you, convince you to join us, let go of those other races, you cant hold them together.

For Shepard its completely different then what they did with Sheridan. Granted both persons of dominate existance. The only difference is the terms of which the Galaxy was in turmoil. In Babylon 5 what the shadow was doing isn't considered wrong in any respect of the word, nor was it right though. What they did was force evolution through war and chaos. Those that did not evolve would die. They wouldn't intentionally try to WIPE out a race. They would push it into Choas forcing it to grow. The races that survived advanced by hundreds maybe thousands of years what would have normally taken them tens of thousands.

Also shepard uniting the races had little to do with him being "shepard". What I mean is that if the Repears weren't involved, the genophage would have never been cured in his life time. The turians and salarians would have not allied with Krogan. ETC ETC.

The formula that Mass Effect used was the "common enemy" formula. When a threat bigger then all the races combined is in the picture, that is the only time when waring nations will choose peace and form an alliance to stop the new powerful enemy.

So you think that shadows didnt go about wiping races out specifically.  BUt you forget that at the end of the shadow war, both shadows and vorlons started wiping out any worlds touched by either side, so at that point their old philosorphy no longer mattered.
And like shepard, sheridan managed to be integral to bringing peace between the narn and the centari (like the taurians and krogan or the geth and the quarians) as well as the petty differences of the other races to.  Then after dealing with the shadow war and the earth civil war, sheridan had showed the races that they could achieve more together than they could apart.
I think the same could be said of the galaxy at the end of ME3, I highly doubt that the races wouls go back to their old ways once the reapers had been delt with.  That would have been an insult to all the stuff shepard had done to get them to work together.

[TheLostGenius]

 Great point. Remember the Prothean VI doesn't know what eventually became of the scientists that used the conduit so its likely that the "SC" is actually a prothean Interface, just as teh Prothean's "re-programmed the Keepers".

[blurr1985]

Hudathan wrote...

blurr1985 wrote...

Some might  say, "oh but the crucible never got built, it was built over millions of years.."  But since patterns repeat, then that means the Crucible did get built before, if you go back far enough, perhaps billions of years. You have to expand your scope of time.

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

Sure, no prob.

The crucible gets built in this cycle.  Countless patterns of existence have been repeated before this one.

This means a crucible was also built once (or more) times before.

The fact that it is built over millions of years is one thing. But if you went back billions of years?  Then it was also, slowly built, but built nonetheless.  There should also be some cycles were it was not built, because as the Prothean VI says, patterns repeat, but not exactly.  Hope this helps!

[Pulletlamer]

blurr1985 wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

I don't believe in the indocrination theory, but the Control ending is totally retarded. My thoughts from another thread:

-About the Control ending: The Catalyst says you will control the Reapers, but that you'll die. Also says that "The Illusive Man would never be able to control *us* because *we* already controled him".
Then A) How do we know he isn't lying and already controlling Shepard, trying fool him, and How can Shepard control the Reapers if he's dead.

I think its both hilarious and awesome that we think the same thing about the control option, but I belive I.T. and you don't.  That's pretty cool, imo.

Because I don't believe in IT for a varied number of reasons, which I won't get into here, but let's basically say that I think that people just convinced themselves to try and not accept the fact that Bioware just did poor writing. I have always said and always will say though, props to all the work that people put into them - I just don't think that's what Bioware intended, otherwise the game would've been Mass Trolling 3.

But yeah, anyway it's interesting the fact that the Catalyst refers about "us" in all of the endings, implying he is part of the reapers.

Here is the full Catalyst conversation from youtube, in case anyone is interested.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 08 avril 2012 - 09:41 .

[blurr1985]

Cheopz wrote...

what about "we left the relays and the citadel so organic life can develop the paths we desire"?

could it be, that even the plans for the crucible are going back to the reapers? how would it be that they didn't got lost in some cycle somehow? ^^

"could it be, that even the plans for the crucible are going back to the reapers"

Just when I thought my mind couldn't be more blown then it already is.

This seems like the final piece of it all.  My jaw is on the floor dude.  

Excellent , excellent, excellent, excellent question!

[Cheopz]

damn, i got a shiver right now... xD

[Bananables]

tomcplotts wrote...

nice try, but starbrat literally says you are the first one to make it that far.
reboot...

did you even read past the first line?

[Vigil_N7]

blurr1985 wrote...

If you take into account my theory, that all the previous Shepard-like beings made the choice to control, thinking they could control the Reapers, then it is pretty evident that that was a lie, because the Reapers are still destroying.

Many (not all) people that chose control chose that because they thought that they will just tell the Reapers to leave or destroy themselves.  This is not what ended up happening, as we all know.

I'm confused then. You cited Javik's quote that the Protheans were betrayed from within by indoctrinated servants that wished to control the reapers. 

So who exactly reached the catalyst then? Your counter-argument only works on the premise that a non-indoctrinated prothean reached the catalyst and decided to pick control, as the catalyst very clearly explains that an indoctrinated servant would fail to control the reapers, as they were already controlled by the reapers. 

Also, Javik clearly states that the protheans never managed to find the catalyst in time, yet in your interpretation, they must've or else they wouldn't have been able to select control. 

Which brings up another point, if choosing to control continues the cycle while destroy doesn't, why would the reapers even have a destroy option? Why have any option at all? 

[Apollo-XL5]

blurr1985 wrote...

Cheopz wrote...

what about "we left the relays and the citadel so organic life can develop the paths we desire"?

could it be, that even the plans for the crucible are going back to the reapers? how would it be that they didn't got lost in some cycle somehow? ^^

"could it be, that even the plans for the crucible are going back to the reapers"

Just when I thought my mind couldn't be more blown then it already is.

This seems like the final piece of it all.  My jaw is on the floor dude.  

Excellent , excellent, excellent, excellent question!

I have always believed that the crucible was of reaper design.  More actually a reaper trojan horse, designed to give the organics hope of beating the reapers because legends say that defeating them conventionally is impossible.  BUt in the previous cycles the reapers deactivated the MRs so everyone was cutt of from each other, so they could not pose a proper defence.  But in this cycle that has not happened and the organics can in fact fight back conventionally, they just need to realise that the crucible is a fake and their true target is HArbinger, the alpha reaper (the largest and oldest....so obviously the first and so the leader or controller)

[Cheopz]

IF other cycles got this far they probably always chose "control" -> its the only ending wich leaves both citadel and relays intact

[Siven80]

Good post, though im not sure om the whole pattern thing.

I do agree that you shouldnt trust the starchild though, and i found it obvious that control and synthesis were "bad" endings, considering theres no proof that controling them will control them and synthesis is really what Reapers are.

Destroy was the only option for me, and the fact you can only get teh Shep "breathes" ending after destroy pretty much confirms for me that this is the right ending.

[taliefer]

this seems to hinge on the fact that the godkid lies to you about being the first organic ever there, but telling you the truth that destroy would actually destroy?

i dont get it. either the godkid is "real" and we can believe what he says to be true, or hes a projection of the reapers in which case everything he says is bunk.

[blurr1985]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

blurr1985 wrote...

If you take into account my theory, that all the previous Shepard-like beings made the choice to control, thinking they could control the Reapers, then it is pretty evident that that was a lie, because the Reapers are still destroying.

Many (not all) people that chose control chose that because they thought that they will just tell the Reapers to leave or destroy themselves.  This is not what ended up happening, as we all know.

I'm confused then. You cited Javik's quote that the Protheans were betrayed from within by indoctrinated servants that wished to control the reapers. 

So who exactly reached the catalyst then? Your counter-argument only works on the premise that a non-indoctrinated prothean reached the catalyst and decided to pick control, as the catalyst very clearly explains that an indoctrinated servant would fail to control the reapers, as they were already controlled by the reapers. 

Also, Javik clearly states that the protheans never managed to find the catalyst in time, yet in your interpretation, they must've or else they wouldn't have been able to select control. 

Which brings up another point, if choosing to control continues the cycle while destroy doesn't, why would the reapers even have a destroy option? Why have any option at all? 

I have no idea who may have reached the catalyst in the previous cycle or any cycle before that.

"Also, Javik clearly states that the protheans never managed to find the
catalyst in time, yet in your interpretation, they must've or else they
wouldn't have been able to select control. "

No, not the Protheans themselves.  Prothean-like.

It was whoever the 'Protheans' of their time were, whoever was analagous to Protheans in Shepards cycle.  Patterns repeat, but they are not exact.  It doesn't even have to only be a Prothean-like species that can reach there.


"Which brings up another point, if choosing to control continues the
cycle while destroy doesn't, why would the reapers even have a destroy
option? Why have any option at all? "

How else can you trick someone into choosing against their intended choice ("I know you thought about destroying us" line), without presenting said original choice? 

Think of it like Inception.

[noobcannon]

but starboy told me i was the first organic and he wouldn't lie to me

[kobayashi-maru]

I like a lot of this theory though still 50/50 on IT . My biggest issue is the visuals of Anderson etc choosing the options. It illustrates what happens but how exactly is Shepard seeing it?

[movieguyabw]

Is it bad that I still would rather pick Control - even if it means Shepard is indoctrinated, as long as the Geth survive?

[PowerExtreme]

hmmm interesting theory

[blurr1985]

kobayashi-maru wrote...

I like a lot of this theory though still 50/50 on IT . My biggest issue is the visuals of Anderson etc choosing the options. It illustrates what happens but how exactly is Shepard seeing it?

I am leaning that parts of my theory don't rely on IT much.

Even if you think all of what happens after Shepard gets hit with the laser is actually happening, then my theory about him not being the first one there still holds true.

But the part about all the others choosing control does rely on IT.

As far as the visuals question, I believe that part was put there by Bioware because that was the final, glaringly obvious hint to the player that something was amiss.  Imagine if they didn't, and all the people who play "Renegade Red" and always choose Red no matter what would think after seeing the rubble scene.   They would probably think that being a jerk was the only way to save Shepards life.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

tomcplotts wrote...

nice try, but starbrat literally says you are the first one to make it that far.
reboot...

Yeah, and that little twit has never lied to us before,...............oh wait!!