189 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaun72]

I would just like to add that when the starchild mentions Shep being synthetic, it was in reference to choosing the synthesize opition. He was telling Shep that he/she should emphasize with synthesis since Shep is part synthetic as well. He never specifically mentions Shep dying if he/she chooses destroy......only that synthetics will be wiped out. Shep is PART synthetic, so it is implied that he/she could be crippled by destroy, but not necessarilly dead. That breath scene at the end only proves he/she is alive, but also possibly quite crippled and perhaps even comatose.

[Hudathan]

blurr1985 wrote...

Sure, no prob.

The crucible gets built in this cycle.  Countless patterns of existence have been repeated before this one.

This means a crucible was also built once (or more) times before.

The fact that it is built over millions of years is one thing. But if you went back billions of years?  Then it was also, slowly built, but built nonetheless.  There should also be some cycles were it was not built, because as the Prothean VI says, patterns repeat, but not exactly.  Hope this helps!

That's like saying Shepard destroyed the Reapers in this cycle that means Reapers have been destroyed before.

While the plans for the Crucible seem to be passed down for countless cycles, the fact that the Reapers are still around is a pretty good indication that no one has finished it before or gotten it to work.

[PowerExtreme]

Aha! i rememeber what this theory reminds me of now

a great comic series (12 issues) by J. M. Straczynski called midnight nation.

Modifié par PowerExtreme, 08 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[blurr1985]

Hudathan wrote...

blurr1985 wrote...

Sure, no prob.

The crucible gets built in this cycle.  Countless patterns of existence have been repeated before this one.

This means a crucible was also built once (or more) times before.

The fact that it is built over millions of years is one thing. But if you went back billions of years?  Then it was also, slowly built, but built nonetheless.  There should also be some cycles were it was not built, because as the Prothean VI says, patterns repeat, but not exactly.  Hope this helps!

That's like saying Shepard destroyed the Reapers in this cycle that means Reapers have been destroyed before.

While the plans for the Crucible seem to be passed down for countless cycles, the fact that the Reapers are still around is a pretty good indication that no one has finished it before or gotten it to work.

I don't deny the idea that Reapers may have been destroyed before.

The patterns repeat, but not exactly.  It is all about analogies.

So there may have been a species that is analagous to our "Reapers", that were wiped out.  But the patterns reapeat, so it is entirely possible that a new type of Reapear analogy will emerge in the future and it starts all over again.

But I doubt it.  Still, you have a good point.

[Nergath]

The "control option" is just a clever renaming of "join us".
Also all scenarios could have already played out over successive millennium. Destroying the reapers and all tech involved with them is no guarantee that new synthetic life forms are not built to start the cycle over. There is no way of knowing how long the current cyclic pattern has gone on or if it is the first time such a cyclic pattern has occurred. It is conceivable that such a pattern occurred before and the reapers and their builders were just starting over where a previous group had chosen destruction or synthesis of the previous cyclic destroyers. History is doomed to repeat forever, and will repeat forever.

[Fbh]

My interpretation for that answer:
"We were sabotaged from within. Splinter groups believed we could dominate the Reapers rather than destroy him. We later found out they were indoctrinated."

was that there are allways people like the lusive man that belive that they can control the reapers.
I mean, it's quite obvious that shepard is a unique guy that managed to do stuff no other person was able to (so far). Without shepard, cerberus would have most probably stopped any attempt to destroy/defeat the reapers.


I'm not a big suporter of the indoctrination theory. I mean, if you can come up with something like that you can make an overall better ending. Though I don't discard it as possible because of the fact that shepard surviving is only possible if you decide to destroy them. I mean, the god-child catalist told Shepard he would die because he is also partially machine made... but he survives.

Meh... I don't know... I guess we will just have to wait for the DLC. Although I don't have high hopes for it. If they couldn't come up with a good ending in the 2 years of development it took them to make the game. What makes you thing wathever they make up in the next months will be any good?

Modifié par Fbh, 08 avril 2012 - 10:29 .

[Apollo-XL5]

It is all misdirection by the reapers. But even that requires a little truth to be mixed in or it would be ro much to believe.

[blurr1985]

If I'm right. And this was Bioware's intention. I really think they should have flashbacked to what the Prothean VI on Thessia says about the cyclical nature of existence.

Before I almost activated control, I stopped, and asked myself...has this happened before?

In that moment, I had the most immersive gaming experience of my life. And all it was, was just me standing there, in front of 'control', thinking deeply, and then realizing...

I said "no...I won't do it" out loud, and walked over to the destroy option.

[Sesshaku]

More speculations....AWESOME

[ChildOfEden]

The fact that the Reapers "chose" to leave which part of civilizations past recollections supports your idea.
If thousands, or even hundreds of civilizations from the past used plans from before their own time who is to say that plan wasn't implemented by the Reapers themselves? Supposedly the Crucible was a collection of plans from all the cycles before, yet the Reapers didn't destroy these plans when they obviously destroyed the people who were working on it?
They also stated that those against the plans were indoctrinated so this gives further proof that the Reapers knew about the Crucible.

[Cheopz]

ChildOfEden wrote...

The fact that the Reapers "chose" to leave which part of civilizations past recollections supports your idea.
If thousands, or even hundreds of civilizations from the past used plans from before their own time who is to say that plan wasn't implemented by the Reapers themselves? Supposedly the Crucible was a collection of plans from all the cycles before, yet the Reapers didn't destroy these plans when they obviously destroyed the people who were working on it?
They also stated that those against the plans were indoctrinated so this gives further proof that the Reapers knew about the Crucible.

yes... in ME1 you see sovvy in the battle for the citadel ignorantly just fly throu a dreadnought to get to his goal... did you ever see any reaper even try to take down the crucible in ME3? they are just flying outside and battling the "little" ships...

[OH-UP-THIS!]

xCaptainAmazing wrote...

blurr1985 wrote...

xCaptainAmazing wrote...

Most of this actually makes so much sense... the extended cut could do very well to frame this better if this was their intention. I think the conversation with the Catalyst kind of needs to be redone, but this is a pretty good explanation, and it doesn't require any leaps of faith. Well, there's one kind of. The line where he says you're the first organic ever to get this far... seems a bit strange. Unless he lies about everything for no reason, that implies anything else that has ever reached that far was a synthetic being... not sure what kind of ramifications that would have for the whole organic vs. synthetic thing.

There are still too many questions, but it is a fairly solid interpretation. I'm pretty sure that's not what they were going for (another golden missed opportunity?), but it's one of my favourite interpretations. Moreso than IT.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

Also, maybe there is a third type of being that is neither organic or synthetic? Its a pretty vast galaxy...

Yeah perhaps... it's just kind of strange trying to imagine what that race could possibly be.

Star Trek had a form of this, not that I remember their species or whatever, but all they were, as a "life-form" were PURE thought, nothing else, just coordinated energy.

[Chief Commander]

First of all: blurr1985 this theory of yours blew my mind. Really well done! (No sarcasm involved;))

Now this is what I have to add to this discussion:

The Reapers KNOW about the crucible. They know that plans for it exist. We don´t get to know if any other race has been able to build it. And the origin of the plans is also unknown. What we know is this:

The protheans were sabotaged by Reaper agents who thought control was the only right choice. The same happens with TIM. So obviously control just CAN´T be a good choice!

[lillitheris]

Here's the thing. For better or worse, the shorthand end sequence we got means that the Catalyst was written to be truthful. That is, if it was lying, they would have included the option to doubt.

Therefore, when it says that this is the first time anyone's made it that far, it's also true.

The whole situation is nonsensical, as has been detailed over and over again, but given the premises, this statement must be assumed to be correct.

[Craigolas]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think we know that the current cycle is unique in a lot of ways:

1. The Reapers weren't able to take the Citadel (initially anyway) and thus were never able to lock out the Mass Relay Network. That meant the Reapers had to do it the old fashioned way and that gave their victims a chance to resist.

2. This cycle is both cooperative (mostly) and hetrogeneous. That means that one tactic doesn't fit all (unlike the Protheans) and it means that under pressure, the victims can adapt with appalling speed.

3. The technological curve (thanks to humanity) is breaking all the former rules. Normally by this point a species that gains starflight becomes fairly technologically static, but the humans are agressive and NEW and unlike (and far more varied) than other species before. That means they were able to act as glue to hold the resistance together. Futhermore humans were willing to consider things (such as openly using AI) that prior races were not.

In fact when you think about it, the poor Reapers lucked out. Had humanity discovered the Mars archive just a little later (remember that Sol was literally frozen out of the Relay Network and thus not on the Reaper galactic map), Humans very likely (along with Yahg) dominated the next galactic cycle with full civilization for 50K years. The Reapers wouldn't have stood a chance.....

-Polaris

This is why I think Bioware actually rocks! Because they allow us to speculate awesome conclusions like this one! 

[blurr1985]

Chief Commander wrote...

First of all: blurr1985 this theory of yours blew my mind. Really well done! (No sarcasm involved;))

Now this is what I have to add to this discussion:

The Reapers KNOW about the crucible. They know that plans for it exist. We don´t get to know if any other race has been able to build it. And the origin of the plans is also unknown. What we know is this:

The protheans were sabotaged by Reaper agents who thought control was the only right choice. The same happens with TIM. So obviously control just CAN´T be a good choice!

Thank you for the positive feedback Cheif!  I'm very happy to share my thoughts with the community for the first time.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you that control is not the right choice.

There were so many hints throughout the series.

ME1: Saren really thinks he can control Soveriegn.
ME2: "Assuming direct control"
ME3: The Prothean VI tells you about the splinter group who thought they could 'dominate' the Reapers instead of destroying them.

The ME3 one is the most important and obvious one.

[Silpheed58]

This is an ok theory, but then TIM thought he could control them not having ever met the starkid.

[Ultra Prism]

cool theory ... but still I am gonna hold on and wait for extended cut DLC ...

[OH-UP-THIS!]

movieguyabw wrote...

Is it bad that I still would rather pick Control - even if it means Shepard is indoctrinated, as long as the Geth survive?

NOOOO!!!!! you're assuming every living being sides with YOUR choice!!!!

Just kidding, it is after all your playthrough/ game so have at it.

[blurr1985]

Silpheed58 wrote...

This is an ok theory, but then TIM thought he could control them not having ever met the starkid.

I don't believe Saren ever met starkid either, yet he still thought he could control them too.

[Cheopz]

blurr1985 wrote...

There were so many hints throughout the series.

ME1: Saren really thinks he can control Soveriegn.
ME2: "Assuming direct control"
ME3: The Prothean VI tells you about the splinter group who thought they could 'dominate' the Reapers instead of destroying them.

just ONE hint in ME3??? i was just hitted by another bolt of lightning... ^^

right in front of the control-panel:
"i am the catalyst. i CONTROL the reapers. they are my solution."

sooooooo... the catalyst somewhen chose (?) to control... since then shepard is the first organic ever who comes this far (so catty tells the truth)...

his apperance -> could only be something for shepard to "comprehend" since regardless what catty was before he "assumed control" is gone now ("you will die and lose everything you have" - catty knows this very well)


hmmm... me3 is banging me good tonight... xD

Modifié par Cheopz, 08 avril 2012 - 11:10 .

[blurr1985]

Cheopz wrote...

blurr1985 wrote...

There were so many hints throughout the series.

ME1: Saren really thinks he can control Soveriegn.
ME2: "Assuming direct control"
ME3: The Prothean VI tells you about the splinter group who thought they could 'dominate' the Reapers instead of destroying them.

just ONE hint in ME3??? i was just hitted by another bolt of lightning... ^^

right in front of the control-panel:
"i am the catalyst. i CONTROL the reapers. they are my solution."

sooooooo... the catalyst somewhen chose (?) to control... since then shepard is the first organic ever who comes this far (so catty tells the truth)...

his apperance -> could only be something for shepard to "comprehend" since regardless what catty was before he "assumed control" is gone now ("you will die and everything you are will be destroyed" - catty knows this very well)


hmmm... me3 is banging me good tonight... xD

There may have been more hints than that, but that one just stands out to me.

Dude, I've got to say, you pick up on alot of subtle things that I just wouldn't even notice.

I think you are on to something.  If your Shepard chose control, then he becomes the new Catalyst, and in the new DLC, they will send you 50K in the future ?? So that you can have the same conversation you just had with starchild with the next Shepard-like character????

LOL...my brain!

Modifié par blurr1985, 08 avril 2012 - 11:12 .

[Cheopz]

it also perfect fits with the intact citadel and relays if you chose this ending... i ask again: am i the only one who noticed that till now?

[blurr1985]

Cheopz wrote...

it also perfect fits with the intact citadel and relays if you chose this ending... i ask again: am i the only one who noticed that till now?

I just youtubed it, and I must say, I didn't realize the Citadel was still intact.

However, the relays did infact get destroyed at 2:15.

[AtlasMickey]

I'm still surprised by the willingness of indoctards to reject very clear, simple statements from the story which completely and explicitly refute their claims, which they spend so much time writing about.

The Catalyst says that Shepard is the first person to make it that far. This is enough to throw away your thread. You have to reject that statement in order to make whatever you say true.

Even if the Catalyst never said that, there's no reason to think the indoctrinated Protheans ever made it farther than TIM. What did TIM do? He just stood around on the Citadel waiting for Shepard and Anderson. Why?

WHY?

There's a very meaningful, rich reason why that is so, which is why it's so damned insulting for indoc-heads to reject the story as told.

TIM was ruthless and power-obsessed the same way the Protheans were, dominating and enslaving every race they encountered, the same way every civilization was before them in all likelihood. This is why they turned into Reapers. This is why they evolved into ruthless killing machines imposing their order on the rest of galaxy. Only Shepard made it that far, because she was different. She was smarter, more emotionally mature, creating alliances based on friendship, ending other conflicts around the galaxy that were once framed in dominance. She was amazing. She was a legend.

And you want to reject that story in favor of, what, lies? You would rather that was all a lie? Or are you just mentally handicapped, unable to recognize very simple and clearly stated lines of dialogue? If I am charitable, I have to think the latter.