189 réponses à ce sujet

[Cheopz]

if you compare all the endings you will see that in all other possibilities the relays are shown to explode but not in the control-ending

[Cheopz]

AtlasMickey wrote...

I'm still surprised by the willingness of indoctards to reject very clear, simple statements from the story which completely and explicitly refute their claims, which they spend so much time writing about.

The Catalyst says that Shepard is the first person to make it that far. This is enough to throw away your thread. You have to reject that statement in order to make whatever you say true.

Even if the Catalyst never said that, there's no reason to think the indoctrinated Protheans ever made it farther than TIM. What did TIM do? He just stood around on the Citadel waiting for Shepard and Anderson. Why?

WHY?

There's a very meaningful, rich reason why that is so, which is why it's so damned insulting for indoc-heads to reject the story as told.

TIM was ruthless and power-obsessed the same way the Protheans were, dominating and enslaving every race they encountered, the same way every civilization was before them in all likelihood. This is why they turned into Reapers. This is why they evolved into ruthless killing machines imposing their order on the rest of galaxy. Only Shepard made it that far, because she was different. She was smarter, more emotionally mature, creating alliances based on friendship, ending other conflicts around the galaxy that were once framed in dominance. She was amazing. She was a legend.

And you want to reject that story in favor of, what, lies? You would rather that was all a lie? Or are you just mentally handicapped, unable to recognize very simple and clearly stated lines of dialogue? If I am charitable, I have to think the latter.

please do yourself a favor and read exactly what was already posted... if you take IT into account doesn't matter for this theorie to could be true...

thank you

[blurr1985]

Cheopz wrote...

if you compare all the endings you will see that in all other possibilities the relays are shown to explode but not in the control-ending

Ah, I see now.  it rather seems the Control ending's relays break a little but not completely explode.

I haven't seen that comparasion video yet, thanks for the link, and yet again, excellent observation!

[TheMerchantMan]

I like this idea. Would have been very interesting to see it run that way.

Indeed that was the thought that crossed my head when I heard similar ideas. Especially with regards to the "Crucible" being a plan that worked across countless cycles. From the get-go I wondered if it was a trap.

This kind of trap is on a whole other level, just as the Reapers made every cycle develop along the lines they wanted, so too did they provide the model for which the Organics would attempt to defeat them. The crucible like the Mass Relays was just another way to hasten the organics demise.

The problem of course with that theory is that destroy is the default. While on the whole explainable, it doesn't really make sense that the Reapers would plan a machine that no matter what could kill them. Even if they were certain of their ability to indoctrinate the user.

[SillyNydia]

Starchild never says that the destroy option will kill Shepard. He does however say, "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want and most of the technology you rely on. Even you are partly synthetic."

As for the crucible, "Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers. The Protheans never had the chance to activate the Crucible, but its schematics survived in a Prothean archive on Mars for the next 50,000 years." from the wiki.

That basically disproves the theory in my opinion. The only deployable state was achieved by the Protheans, since the only final properly working form of it was achieved by them based off the collected works of every other cycle.

Modifié par SillyNydia, 08 avril 2012 - 11:44 .

[soulprovider]

blurr1985 wrote...

The dialog with the Prothean VI on Thessia reveals the most vital information in the entire game (arguably the series).

Shepard asks "why didn't you use the crucible in your time?" The VI says: "We were sabotaged from within.  Splinter groups believed we could dominate the Reapers rather than destroy him.  We later found out they were indoctrinated."

This directly foreshadows the final choice that Shepard is faced with.  It pretty much confirms that Control and Synthesis are the indoctrinated options.  While choosing to destroy breaks the indoctrination and Shepard wakes up in rubble.

      -we hope that is the case but biowares not acknowledging it at all, they are trying very very hard to avoid answering any real questions and a few unnoficial interviews posted on the forums so far suggest that the indoc theory may be inccorect(I really hope it isn't)

But here it is.  In the most significant dialog in the entire series, the VI says that they've found out that 'patterns repeat' in the galaxy/Universe, but they are not exact, they are 'similar'.

        

           - I present to you vigil
                       part 1) 
 
                       part 2) 
 
                basically everything victory tells shepard on thessia is told by vigil except the crucible, however it also acknowledges that sovereign has direct control over the citadel meaning starboy did not exist in ME1.

I beleive that bioware is taking the endings at face value and adding on to them, but indoctrination makes sense.since the starchild destroys the franchise completely. Sovereign and vigil confirm that he didn't exist.

Modifié par soulprovider, 08 avril 2012 - 11:53 .

[mass perfection]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think we know that the current cycle is unique in a lot of ways:

1. The Reapers weren't able to take the Citadel (initially anyway) and thus were never able to lock out the Mass Relay Network. That meant the Reapers had to do it the old fashioned way and that gave their victims a chance to resist.

2. This cycle is both cooperative (mostly) and hetrogeneous. That means that one tactic doesn't fit all (unlike the Protheans) and it means that under pressure, the victims can adapt with appalling speed.

3. The technological curve (thanks to humanity) is breaking all the former rules. Normally by this point a species that gains starflight becomes fairly technologically static, but the humans are agressive and NEW and unlike (and far more varied) than other species before. That means they were able to act as glue to hold the resistance together. Futhermore humans were willing to consider things (such as openly using AI) that prior races were not.

In fact when you think about it, the poor Reapers lucked out. Had humanity discovered the Mars archive just a little later (remember that Sol was literally frozen out of the Relay Network and thus not on the Reaper galactic map), Humans very likely (along with Yahg) dominated the next galactic cycle with full civilization for 50K years. The Reapers wouldn't have stood a chance.....

-Polaris

This.

[blurr1985]

SillyNydia wrote...

Starchild never says that the destroy option will kill Shepard. He does however say, "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want and most of the technology you rely on. Even you are partly synthetic."

As for the crucible, "Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers. The Protheans never had the chance to activate the Crucible, but its schematics survived in a Prothean archive on Mars for the next 50,000 years." from the codex.

That basically disproves the theory in my opinion. The only deployable state was achieved by the Protheans, since the only final properly working form of it was achieved by them based off the collected works of every other cycle.

The codex is a product of the accumlated knowledge of this Cycle and a bit from the Protheans cycle (which was the directly previous one to ours).

Who is say that the codex encompasses all possible cycles?

Put it this way...

30 million years from now, there is this hero named Shepard, and to the best of our knowledge he is going to uses the Crucible, which no other Cycle was able to use before.

That is what a codex from the future would say.  And of course if we could tell them, hey actually it happened once before, but how could you have known....

[mass perfection]

AnuzaGray wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think we know that the current cycle is unique in a lot of ways:

1. The Reapers weren't able to take the Citadel (initially anyway) and thus were never able to lock out the Mass Relay Network. That meant the Reapers had to do it the old fashioned way and that gave their victims a chance to resist.

2. This cycle is both cooperative (mostly) and hetrogeneous. That means that one tactic doesn't fit all (unlike the Protheans) and it means that under pressure, the victims can adapt with appalling speed.

3. The technological curve (thanks to humanity) is breaking all the former rules. Normally by this point a species that gains starflight becomes fairly technologically static, but the humans are agressive and NEW and unlike (and far more varied) than other species before. That means they were able to act as glue to hold the resistance together. Futhermore humans were willing to consider things (such as openly using AI) that prior races were not.

In fact when you think about it, the poor Reapers lucked out. Had humanity discovered the Mars archive just a little later (remember that Sol was literally frozen out of the Relay Network and thus not on the Reaper galactic map), Humans very likely (along with Yahg) dominated the next galactic cycle with full civilization for 50K years. The Reapers wouldn't have stood a chance.....

-Polaris

Yep, even if this cycled failed, good luck defeating the Yahg.  

50,000 years of development Yahg >>> Reapers.

Aren't the Yahg currently building their first spaceship?If that's true,then 50,000 years later,the reapers wouldn't stand a chance.

[Aiyie]

Rabid Veggie wrote...

I don't believe that this is correct. This entire cycle is very different from the previous ones. No civilization before this could mount the kind of resistance in this cycle since they always got gutted right from the get go. I believe when the VI says they were betrayed it was by an individual similar too cerberus and the illusive man who screwed their civ over with infighting preventing them from even delivering the crucible.

can't quite agree there.

we've got the derelict reaper and the great rift on klendagon as proof that at least once before there was a species that was able to mount significant resistance.

although, i do agree that the betrayal was due to a cerberus-like group that was indoctrinated and believed that rather than use the crucible to destroy, it could be used to control. 

i also believe that has occurred many times in the past... and logically, one can assume that these times only occurred when the civilizations being harvested were able to put up a significant resistance effort.  primarily due to the resources that development and construction of the crucible required would mean that any species already on the edge of extinction would not have been able to sustain such an effort.

headcanon though, i prefer to think of the entire crucible as a trap, a method to defeat stubborn species that are putting up too much resistance.  I also prefer indoc theory as headcanon... but i accept both these ideas aren't ever likely to be actual canon.

[Cheopz]

SillyNydia wrote...

Starchild never says that the destroy option will kill Shepard. He does however say, "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want and most of the technology you rely on. Even you are partly synthetic."

As for the crucible, "Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers. The Protheans never had the chance to activate the Crucible, but its schematics survived in a Prothean archive on Mars for the next 50,000 years." from the wiki.

That basically disproves the theory in my opinion. The only deployable state was achieved by the Protheans, since the only final properly working form of it was achieved by them based off the collected works of every other cycle.

we are all just guessing here... ^^

but look at it that way:
the protheans didn't get as far as shepard does... even for shepard it was a close call... but how is it possible that the plans for the crucible were not found by the reapers or get lost for so many cycles if everything else that is older than the protheans just vanished? where is the definit prove that the plans were invented from cycle to cycle - race to race? there must have been some different in language, writing and everything... how is it possible for the plans to exist in a way that they are accessible to this cycle?

edit: forget something xD
lets see... protheans didn't get... *mumble mumble* ...for shepard close call... theres not one explicit prove that it was never build before in any cycle... please read a post of mine a little bit up around here (page 5) and you see my point of view... ^^

Modifié par Cheopz, 09 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[Cheopz]

*bump*

it's 2:09am here in germany... need some more coffe... *yawn*

[ZeroSum7]

tomcplotts wrote...

nice try, but starbrat literally says you are the first one to make it that far.
reboot...

The whole point the OP was making is that the Starbrat might have been lying

[Death2sheep]

blurr1985 wrote...

Cheopz wrote...

what about "we left the relays and the citadel so organic life can develop the paths we desire"?

could it be, that even the plans for the crucible are going back to the reapers? how would it be that they didn't got lost in some cycle somehow? ^^

"could it be, that even the plans for the crucible are going back to the reapers"

Just when I thought my mind couldn't be more blown then it already is.

This seems like the final piece of it all.  My jaw is on the floor dude.  

Excellent , excellent, excellent, excellent question!

You are also told that at some point in the previous cycles they found that they would need the citadel because the crucible alone could not defeat the reapers. This could point to it being built before. The race that built it failed. So the next cycle the race that was building it found out that the crucible alone would not get the job done.

[Beleg43]

Rabid Veggie wrote...

I don't believe that this is correct. This entire cycle is very different from the previous ones. No civilization before this could mount the kind of resistance in this cycle since they always got gutted right from the get go. I believe when the VI says they were betrayed it was by an individual similar too cerberus and the illusive man who screwed their civ over with infighting preventing them from even delivering the crucible.

The Protheans held out for centuries. That point is made repeatedly.

[Beleg43]

Cheopz wrote...


we are all just guessing here... ^^

but look at it that way:
the protheans didn't get as far as shepard does... even for shepard it was a close call... but how is it possible that the plans for the crucible were not found by the reapers or get lost for so many cycles if everything else that is older than the protheans just vanished? where is the definit prove that the plans were invented from cycle to cycle - race to race? there must have been some different in language, writing and everything... how is it possible for the plans to exist in a way that they are accessible to this cycle?

edit: forget something xD
lets see... protheans didn't get... *mumble mumble* ...for shepard close call... theres not one explicit prove that it was never build before in any cycle... please read a post of mine a little bit up around here (page 5) and you see my point of view... ^^

The Reapers, the most advanced group in the galaxy, apparently don't have scanners as good as the Normandy's.
And apparently they don't bother to take any steps to destroy accumulated evidence - like the Mars Prothean archives that have been around since the Reapers destroyed the Protheans.  For a group of beings whose purpose is to destroy entire civilizations, they leave a lot of crap lying around.

[Cheopz]

Beleg43 wrote...

The Reapers, the most advanced group in the galaxy, apparently don't have scanners as good as the Normandy's.
And apparently they don't bother to take any steps to destroy accumulated evidence - like the Mars Prothean archives that have been around since the Reapers destroyed the Protheans.  For a group of beings whose purpose is to destroy entire civilizations, they leave a lot of crap lying around.

xD

that's exactly what i meant... ^^

[IanPolaris]

Beleg43 wrote...

Rabid Veggie wrote...

I don't believe that this is correct. This entire cycle is very different from the previous ones. No civilization before this could mount the kind of resistance in this cycle since they always got gutted right from the get go. I believe when the VI says they were betrayed it was by an individual similar too cerberus and the illusive man who screwed their civ over with infighting preventing them from even delivering the crucible.

The Protheans held out for centuries. That point is made repeatedly.

That's only becaue the Protheans were older and had colonized far more of the galaxy than our current cycle has.  The Reapers simply had more to do.  The protheans were lucky just to slow the Reapers down.  Fact is our own cycle has done a much better job at resisting the Reapers than the Protheans did starting with recognizing the dangers of indoctrination far better and having indoctrination be less effective (per EDI).

-Polaris

[Beleg43]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's only becaue the Protheans were older and had colonized far more of the galaxy than our current cycle has.  The Reapers simply had more to do.  The protheans were lucky just to slow the Reapers down.  Fact is our own cycle has done a much better job at resisting the Reapers than the Protheans did starting with recognizing the dangers of indoctrination far better and having indoctrination be less effective (per EDI).

-Polaris

I agree with some of what you're saying. Jahvik does make it sound like the Citadel was captured early on. But the Protheans still held out for centuries, and had the foresight to preserve lots of information which was hidden and protected so that the next cycle could use it.

Part of me wonders if they ever even started construction on the Crucible, or if their wisest councillors devoted resources to extending the war with the Reapers so that they could enhance the Crucible's design and hide more information for the next cycle. But clearly Shep's cycle isn't capable of holding out for centuries. 

That said, Shep can still perhaps accomplish something no other cycle can accomplish. But there's no way of telling if 10 cycles ago, somebody else built the Crucible but chose the wrong color.

[sp0ck 06]

I don't think the IT stuff is true but I like your theory that Sep was not the first to reach the Catalyst, but the previous organics to do so were indoctrinated.

I too found the dialog with Vendetta on Thessia to be the most critical of the entire series.

[blurr1985]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

I don't think the IT stuff is true but I like your theory that Sep was not the first to reach the Catalyst, but the previous organics to do so were indoctrinated.

I too found the dialog with Vendetta on Thessia to be the most critical of the entire series.

Hey, thanks for the support!

And yes, that dialog...I can't stress it enough.

It only reveals the nature of time itself.  Not something you just simply say "oh really? cool.." lol:P

[Cheopz]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's only becaue the Protheans were older and had colonized far more of the galaxy than our current cycle has.  The Reapers simply had more to do.  The protheans were lucky just to slow the Reapers down.  Fact is our own cycle has done a much better job at resisting the Reapers than the Protheans did starting with recognizing the dangers of indoctrination far better and having indoctrination be less effective (per EDI).

-Polaris

is anybody having a link or something to prove that? can't remember if something like this was mentioned...

[Freckle Face]

blurr1985 wrote...
This leads me to believe that, in past cycles, there were other Shepard-like (in character) beings that were faced with the choice.  And all of them chose control; every cycle. Hence why the Reapers still exist in our Shepard's time.

COOL. COOL. VERY COOL. I like!! Speculations!! 

Seriously though, this is a really cool thing to mull over. I would have never thought of it on my own, but it makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for sharing!

[xsdob]

I think that this was the first time the crucible ever made it to the catalyst. It showed that this cycle was different from the rest by doing what no other cycle ever managed to before.

Shepard passed the test, so he was given the power to change the future. Simple as that to me.

Otherwise, how come the prothena vi states that all other attmepts to build the crucible were sabotauged and never worked.

Modifié par xsdob, 10 avril 2012 - 04:17 .

[Cheopz]

xsdob wrote...

I think that this was the first time the crucible ever made it to the catalyst. It showed that this cycle was different from the rest by doing what no other cycle ever managed to before.

Shepard passed the test, so he was given the power to change the future. Simple as that to me.

Otherwise, how come the prothena vi states that all other attmepts to build the crucible were sabotauged and never worked.

there it is again... we only know that the protheans cycle did not get that far but that doesn't prove or even mean that it wasn't accomplished by any of the countless cycles before that...