189 réponses à ce sujet

[blurr1985]

Cheopz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I think that this was the first time the crucible ever made it to the catalyst. It showed that this cycle was different from the rest by doing what no other cycle ever managed to before.

Shepard passed the test, so he was given the power to change the future. Simple as that to me.

Otherwise, how come the prothena vi states that all other attmepts to build the crucible were sabotauged and never worked.

there it is again... we only know that the protheans cycle did not get that far but that doesn't prove or even mean that it wasn't accomplished by any of the countless cycles before that...

This inability to expand your concept and scope of time, directly mirrors the final decision.

It is revealed to you that time is Cyclical.

You, a human, have an incredibly difficult time coping with that.  As humans, by nature, believe time to be linear, unless told otherwise.  No one is born beliving time is cyclical.

Shepard and you are human beings.

If, you expand your concept and scope of time, then you would realize what I did.

I don't know how else to put it.

[blurr1985]

Freckle Face wrote...

blurr1985 wrote...
This leads me to believe that, in past cycles, there were other Shepard-like (in character) beings that were faced with the choice.  And all of them chose control; every cycle. Hence why the Reapers still exist in our Shepard's time.

COOL. COOL. VERY COOL. I like!! Speculations!! 

Seriously though, this is a really cool thing to mull over. I would have never thought of it on my own, but it makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for sharing!

Thank you!  It feels great to share my thoughts with the community!

[xsdob]

Cheopz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I think that this was the first time the crucible ever made it to the catalyst. It showed that this cycle was different from the rest by doing what no other cycle ever managed to before.

Shepard passed the test, so he was given the power to change the future. Simple as that to me.

Otherwise, how come the prothena vi states that all other attmepts to build the crucible were sabotauged and never worked.

there it is again... we only know that the protheans cycle did not get that far but that doesn't prove or even mean that it wasn't accomplished by any of the countless cycles before that...

Well, it's a really big strech of the imagination to say that every single cycle besides the protheans picked control. Are you aware of how many species would have to have been gone through to do this.

Let's recap a second here. The leviathan of dis is a repaer, the corpse was thought to be nearly 1,000,000,000 years old by the scans of derbris surronding the reaper corpse by the salarian excavation team. But that's a little too old and would produce a number very big and possibly erronius, so let's look at the other example.

37,000,000 years ago, a reaper that the iff comes from was killed by a mass accelorator weapon that was so powerful that it went through the reaper and hit another planet in anothr system across from it in the hawking eta cluster. Assuming this is correct, than that would mean that at the current rate of 50,000 years as our known time of harvesting, that would mean that 740 individuals made it to the catalyst, and not a single one of them choose anything but control.

And that's the kinder version of this, If I had used the leviathan of dis as the example, than that would mean that 20,000 creatures all picked control without failure or deviation. That is a very hard pill to swallow for either statistic, and the fact is that I cannot believe that such a large number of people made it to the catalyst and without fail, they were all swayed by it and they all choose control.

It is actually more believeable that this cycle managed to be the first one to ever beat the odds and create the crucible than to believe that 740 people all choose the same option instead. At least you can factor in variables in determining why the other crucible attempts failed, but there aren't many variables for why all of those guys picked control except one, they all without fail or margin of error all were convinced by the catalyst to pick it.

Proof of where i got my facts is here and in the codex: http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Timeline

formula: X/50,000=Y, X=how old a reaper is, Y=how many cycles and individuals picked control.

Modifié par xsdob, 10 avril 2012 - 05:40 .

[Dridengx]

blurr1985 wrote...

The dialog with the Prothean VI on Thessia reveals the most vital information in the entire game (arguably the series).

Shepard asks "why didn't you use the crucible in your time?" The VI says: "We were sabotaged from within.  Splinter groups believed we could dominate the Reapers rather than destroy him.  We later found out they were indoctrinated."

This directly foreshadows the final choice that Shepard is faced with.  It pretty much confirms that Control and Synthesis are the indoctrinated options.  .

No. The VI tells you exactly what Javik has been telling you. They fought amoung themselves and couldn't form alliances with other races. It never says otherwise or did you forget the child says Shepard was the FIRST organic to make it that far and because of that his solution wont work anymore? derp

Not to mention the crucible wasn't completed to even be used to GET to the Citadel child. remember? Javik's people never saw or rather been on the Citadel

Modifié par Dridengx, 10 avril 2012 - 05:43 .

[Canned Bullets]

That is pretty crazy.

[signfang]

Deus ex + Matrix....

[blurr1985]

Dridengx wrote...

blurr1985 wrote...

The dialog with the Prothean VI on Thessia reveals the most vital information in the entire game (arguably the series).

Shepard asks "why didn't you use the crucible in your time?" The VI says: "We were sabotaged from within.  Splinter groups believed we could dominate the Reapers rather than destroy him.  We later found out they were indoctrinated."

This directly foreshadows the final choice that Shepard is faced with.  It pretty much confirms that Control and Synthesis are the indoctrinated options.  .

No. The VI tells you exactly what Javik has been telling you. They fought amoung themselves and couldn't form alliances with other races. It never says otherwise or did you forget the child says Shepard was the FIRST organic to make it that far and because of that his solution wont work anymore? derp

Not to mention the crucible wasn't completed to even be used to GET to the Citadel child. remember? Javik's people never saw the Citadel

Yeah.  Because the starchild is completely trustworthy and would never lie to us *cough* rubble scene *cough*.

From my original post:

So if we take it that starchild is not trustworthy, then is it really
true when he says that Shepard is the "first organic" to ever make it up
there? 

Even if you think starchild is telling the truth about that,and Shepard is the first organic up there, then that
still leaves the possibilty that the previous Shepard-like beings were synthetic or even something not organic or synthetic.

[RockSW]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think we know that the current cycle is unique in a lot of ways:

1. The Reapers weren't able to take the Citadel (initially anyway) and thus were never able to lock out the Mass Relay Network. That meant the Reapers had to do it the old fashioned way and that gave their victims a chance to resist.

2. This cycle is both cooperative (mostly) and hetrogeneous. That means that one tactic doesn't fit all (unlike the Protheans) and it means that under pressure, the victims can adapt with appalling speed.

3. The technological curve (thanks to humanity) is breaking all the former rules. Normally by this point a species that gains starflight becomes fairly technologically static, but the humans are agressive and NEW and unlike (and far more varied) than other species before. That means they were able to act as glue to hold the resistance together. Futhermore humans were willing to consider things (such as openly using AI) that prior races were not.

In fact when you think about it, the poor Reapers lucked out. Had humanity discovered the Mars archive just a little later (remember that Sol was literally frozen out of the Relay Network and thus not on the Reaper galactic map), Humans very likely (along with Yahg) dominated the next galactic cycle with full civilization for 50K years. The Reapers wouldn't have stood a chance.....

-Polaris

where is is stated that the sol network was cutoff? im not disagreeing im just asking how we didn't notice the relay in our solar system or how it was cutoff

Modifié par RockSW, 10 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[blurr1985]

xsdob wrote...

Cheopz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I think that this was the first time the crucible ever made it to the catalyst. It showed that this cycle was different from the rest by doing what no other cycle ever managed to before.

Shepard passed the test, so he was given the power to change the future. Simple as that to me.

Otherwise, how come the prothena vi states that all other attmepts to build the crucible were sabotauged and never worked.

there it is again... we only know that the protheans cycle did not get that far but that doesn't prove or even mean that it wasn't accomplished by any of the countless cycles before that...

Well, it's a really big strech of the imagination to say that every single cycle besides the protheans picked control. Are you aware of how many species would have to have been gone through to do this.

Let's recap a second here. The leviathan of dis is a repaer, the corpse was thought to be nearly 1,000,000,000 years old by the scans of derbris surronding the reaper corpse by the salarian excavation team. But that's a little too old and would produce a number very big and possibly erronius, so let's look at the other example.

37,000,000 years ago, a reaper that the iff comes from was killed by a mass accelorator weapon that was so powerful that it went through the reaper and hit another planet in anothr system across from it in the hawking eta cluster. Assuming this is correct, than that would mean that at the current rate of 50,000 years as our known time of harvesting, that would mean that 740 individuals made it to the catalyst, and not a single one of them choose anything but control.

And that's the kinder version of this, If I had used the leviathan of dis as the example, than that would mean that 20,000 creatures all picked control without failure or deviation. That is a very hard pill to swallow for either statistic, and the fact is that I cannot believe that such a large number of people made it to the catalyst and without fail, they were all swayed by it and they all choose control.

It is actually more believeable that this cycle managed to be the first one to ever beat the odds and create the crucible than to believe that 740 people all choose the same option instead. At least you can factor in variables in determining why the other crucible attempts failed, but there aren't many variables for why all of those guys picked control except one, they all without fail or margin of error all were convinced by the catalyst to pick it.

Proof of where i got my facts is here and in the codex: http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Timeline

formula: X/50,000=Y, X=how old a reaper is, Y=how many cycles and individuals picked control.

Except the one constant.  They all were not able to break indoctrination.

The idea that Shepard was not the first one (organic or not) up there is independent of believing I.T.

The idea that Shepard was the only one to choose Destroy does rely on I.T.

[Savber100]

To think all of this as simple coincidence is starting to sound silly.

Indoctrination whether through the theory presented by others or the OP has to be in the ending somewhere and somewhat... >.>

[Canned Bullets]

blurr1985 wrote...

Cheopz wrote...

if you compare all the endings you will see that in all other possibilities the relays are shown to explode but not in the control-ending

Ah, I see now.  it rather seems the Control ending's relays break a little but not completely explode.

I haven't seen that comparasion video yet, thanks for the link, and yet again, excellent observation!

The Catalyst says the relays will be destroyed no matter what so its' highly likely Bioware was too lazy to texture in a blue version of the Supernova explosion.

[Cheopz]

well... i DID posted this, right? ^^

Cheopz wrote...

right in front of the control-panel:
"i am the catalyst. i CONTROL the reapers. they are my solution."

sooooooo... the catalyst somewhen chose (?) to control... since then shepard is the first organic ever who comes this far (so catty tells the truth)...

his apperance -> could only be something for shepard to "comprehend" since regardless what catty was before he "assumed control" is gone now ("you will die and lose everything you have" - catty knows this very well)

[Cheopz]

Canned Bullets wrote...

The Catalyst says the relays will be destroyed no matter what so its' highly likely Bioware was too lazy to texture in a blue version of the Supernova explosion.

afaik... catty only speaks about the relay-destruction while referring to "destroy"... am i wrong?

[Sajuro]

Because war...war never changes

[xsdob]

blurr1985 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Cheopz wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I think that this was the first time the crucible ever made it to the catalyst. It showed that this cycle was different from the rest by doing what no other cycle ever managed to before.

Shepard passed the test, so he was given the power to change the future. Simple as that to me.

Otherwise, how come the prothena vi states that all other attmepts to build the crucible were sabotauged and never worked.

there it is again... we only know that the protheans cycle did not get that far but that doesn't prove or even mean that it wasn't accomplished by any of the countless cycles before that...

Well, it's a really big strech of the imagination to say that every single cycle besides the protheans picked control. Are you aware of how many species would have to have been gone through to do this.

Let's recap a second here. The leviathan of dis is a repaer, the corpse was thought to be nearly 1,000,000,000 years old by the scans of derbris surronding the reaper corpse by the salarian excavation team. But that's a little too old and would produce a number very big and possibly erronius, so let's look at the other example.

37,000,000 years ago, a reaper that the iff comes from was killed by a mass accelorator weapon that was so powerful that it went through the reaper and hit another planet in anothr system across from it in the hawking eta cluster. Assuming this is correct, than that would mean that at the current rate of 50,000 years as our known time of harvesting, that would mean that 740 individuals made it to the catalyst, and not a single one of them choose anything but control.

And that's the kinder version of this, If I had used the leviathan of dis as the example, than that would mean that 20,000 creatures all picked control without failure or deviation. That is a very hard pill to swallow for either statistic, and the fact is that I cannot believe that such a large number of people made it to the catalyst and without fail, they were all swayed by it and they all choose control.

It is actually more believeable that this cycle managed to be the first one to ever beat the odds and create the crucible than to believe that 740 people all choose the same option instead. At least you can factor in variables in determining why the other crucible attempts failed, but there aren't many variables for why all of those guys picked control except one, they all without fail or margin of error all were convinced by the catalyst to pick it.

Proof of where i got my facts is here and in the codex: http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Timeline

formula: X/50,000=Y, X=how old a reaper is, Y=how many cycles and individuals picked control.

Except the one constant.  They all were not able to break indoctrination.

The idea that Shepard was not the first one (organic or not) up there is independent of believing I.T.

The idea that Shepard was the only one to choose Destroy does rely on I.T.

What are you arguing me about here? I don't believe the indoctrination theory, if your trying to say that I do. What I'm saying is that the likleyhood of this same series of events happening over and over again relying on the very few factors that an individual could rely on to choose control is mindbogglingly outrageous, while the likleyhood of the crucible actually doing everything right and making it to dock only in this cycle is much more acceptable to me, because there are so much things that could have gone wrong with the crucible than there are things that would make every species pick control every time.

Both hinge on shepard beating impossible odds, my way is just a little more grounded in reality as far as impossible odds are concerned. Or maybe it's just that saying that every cycle choose control makes me do a double take and than a faceplam, who knows with subjective speculation meeting objective math.

[Deaddude56]

My mind just asploded.

[Lyrandori]

I really like this theory.

But my problem with it is the following...

Not enough details in-game to come up with such a theory by the mass of gamers. Too much room for self-satisfying interpretations and theories. If it was CANONICALLY explained, mentioned more clearly, in greater details and FORESHADOWED from earlier in ME3 (at least) if not in ME1 or ME2, if it had been cooked up enough for us to compute all of that ourselves without having to create forums here on the BSN to come up with our own theories, then... and only then I would accept it as canon and undeniably the truth.

For now, even if "I like" this theory, it's just a theory nonetheless, even if you "can" come up with it by analyzing the Prothean VI on Thessia. There's still too much room for different interpretation on an individual gamer basis. Not everyone will agree unanimously because not everyone can possibly agree unanimously, no complete and direct proof.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 10 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Cheopz]

xsdob wrote...

What are you arguing me about here? I don't believe the indoctrination theory, if your trying to say that I do. What I'm saying is that the likleyhood of this same series of events happening over and over again relying on the very few factors that an individual could rely on to choose control is mindbogglingly outrageous, while the likleyhood of the crucible actually doing everything right and making it to dock only in this cycle is much more acceptable to me, because there are so much things that could have gone wrong with the crucible than there are things that would make every species pick control every time.

Both hinge on shepard beating impossible odds, my way is just a little more grounded in reality as far as impossible odds are concerned. Or maybe it's just that saying that every cycle choose control makes me do a double take and than a faceplam, who knows with subjective speculation meeting objective math.

we don't say every but the prothys docked... let's guess maybe 1 of 200 did (the 37,000,000 BCE cycle could have been one of those if they already had weapons powerful enough to blow trough a reaper)... that the citadel and the relays are stay intact if you choose control is fact, you can see it ingame... so those who did finish the crucible and docked at the citadel most likely have chosen to control...

and imo you dont need the IT for this...

Modifié par Cheopz, 10 avril 2012 - 06:43 .

[Charlie2417]

.

Modifié par Charlie2417, 10 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[Drenick18]

Yubz wrote...

blurr1985 wrote...

How can you trick someone into choosing against their original choice, without presenting said original choice?

Simply by... not presenting the original choice?
"You can choose Control or Synthesis or the Reapers will destroy the Galaxy"
Not much choice for Shepard. Offering a 3nd choice that actually means a victory for your enemy makes no sense.

then starkid is also lying about "Destroy". it won't destroy all synthetics at all. might be that even all Reapers won't be wiped out by the Destroy option. like maybe dormant ones that are shutdown out in dark space, maybe being dormant allows it to not be reached by the Destroy signal.  

[Psychlonus]

I agree that the kid had to have met his momma. The dead beat dad is another story...

[Cheopz]

Drenick18 wrote...

then starkid is also lying about "Destroy". it won't destroy all synthetics at all. might be that even all Reapers won't be wiped out by the Destroy option. like maybe dormant ones that are shutdown out in dark space, maybe being dormant allows it to not be reached by the Destroy signal.  

thats interesting... regardless what ending you choose... what if there are other reapers out in dark space where the impuls of the crucible-activation eventually don't spread because its advancing through the relays...

[oblique9]

What about the stargazer. Every time I get excited about IT theory/something similar, I remember that awful final chapter and it kills me inside.

Same planet the Normandy was stranded on (presumably)... The way the old man and kid were talking, they hadn't figure'd out spaceflight yet, which means... All the terrible things that happened in all 3 endings actually happened.

[Grasich]

I really want to believe in IT.

Unfortunately I lost faith a while back. We'll see in the summer though I guess.

[blurr1985]

Lyrandori wrote...

I really like this theory.

But my problem with it is the following...

Not enough details in-game to come up with such a theory by the mass of gamers. Too much room for self-satisfying interpretations and theories. If it was CANONICALLY explained, mentioned more clearly, in greater details and FORESHADOWED from earlier in ME3 (at least) if not in ME1 or ME2, if it had been cooked up enough for us to compute all of that ourselves without having to create forums here on the BSN to come up with our own theories, then... and only then I would accept it as canon and undeniably the truth.

For now, even if "I like" this theory, it's just a theory nonetheless, even if you "can" come up with it by analyzing the Prothean VI on Thessia. There's still too much room for different interpretation on an individual gamer basis. Not everyone will agree unanimously because not everyone can possibly agree unanimously, no complete and direct proof.

You are correct.  It is pretty bad that the nature of time itself, is only explained and touched upon for a few minutes at best.  It is not some simple thing or little piece of information.

It should have been presented in ME2, IMO.