189 réponses à ce sujet

[Turbo_J]

One thing I did not come across in any posts regarding the crucibles construction or successful use; you all seem to forget that in every other cycle before the current one, the Mass Relay network was disabled. The Reapers came through the Citadel, took it over and shut the entire galaxy down. Every single system was left on it's own to mount a defense. Simple as that. They wouldn't have stood a chance even if multiple systems in one region were to work together to build the Crucible, the pattern of splintering the group via indoctrination would have derailed the attempt... and it would have taken generations to get it to wherever the Citadel was.

There are far more instances than just the one the OP mentioned to point out that indoctrination is part of what is happening here. It's an indoctrination attempt... a process that takes place via the boy at the beginning, the dreams, and the subtle direction and path Shepard is pushed along. The attack on Sanctuary is one of the bigger hints that it's a con job. Think.

"Tim found a way to control husks and the reapers freaked out... maybe control is possible... wow wee. If the reapers attacked, it must be possible." Fool

Hackett warns you control is not the answer... only dead reapers win the war.
Vendetta, twice

Another issue... Vendetta on Cronos.

Shepard: "Tell me what the catalyst is."
Vendetta: "Security protocols disabled. I will comply."

Why did it say that to Shepard?
Prior to entering the room where vendetta is: why is Shepard breathing heavy even when standing still as if he/she is running when on Cronos?

Did none of you listen to Joker when he freaked out about your stress level?

Star kid:

"The fact that you are here, the first organic ever..."

Could this be metaphorical for the first organic ever to resist indoctrination to such an extent? Think about it!

3.5 years of being around Reaper tech... not only that but having the crap right inside your body! How the hell has Shep resisted for so long!?

"You hear that hum? Is that just me?"

The Geth Conundrum!

The Geth see themselves as one entity. Individual programs, but only one thing: Geth...
A Reaper sees itself as one entity.

First, the Geth don't die when you pic destroy. Nothing that happened on the Citadel was real. Waking up under concrete rubble tosses that out the window. Given the other 97% of the writing on ME 3, if you think BW would really use space majik to have Shep live through reentry... I got nothing for ya... and the crater would be massive with all that reaper tech Shep's sportin. Nothing after the reaper beam hit; and perhaps even from the tank/rover crash before the foot push to the beam, ever happens in the 'real' world... nadda. Recall the crash scene... it goes from talking to Anderson, to lights out, to everyone's outside instantly... really... how did they get out? The door area is on fire and partially buried by rubble.

Back to the Geth!

Consensus... this is how the Geth govern themselves and would continue to govern themselves if you do not allow Legion to upload; thus evolving them to individual AI's with distinct personalities. No longer a nation with one personality but a nation of personalities. Like say, organics!

Reapers... consensus. Literally organic goo and tech combined to form individual programs that govern by consensus. Sovereign/Nazara actually mention this - We are each a nation, free of all weakness. Legion mentions in ME2 that Nazara is not one AI/Organic goo, but exists as multiple programs... He does say he is not familiar with how they govern, but I think it would be similar - just throw the melted organic in there as part of the Borg/hive like thinking process.

Although not all Geth are hostile, they would likely get that way the dumber they became... as individual geth programs are destroyed or severed from the network, they became instinctual like an animal and their ability to make good moral choices is lost in favor of self preservation. Talk to EDI about her views on self preservation and ask her why she altered her programing...

So the Geth got dumb and went running to the reapers for aid after the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. If Geth had built the Sphere, there is a good chance they would have become the next Reaper type race, given the way they govern. No single program could make a choice... Only one personality would evolve regardless of how numerous the individual programs. The problem with that however, is it would never truly be alive or have a soul. Furthermore, the ability for individual programs inside a Reaper to evolve is probably limited by consensus... It's own rule of law prevents its individual programs from exerting free will.

Do what you want with all this. This thread just impressed me as did the OP - 'getting it' or at least some of it. One of these days I'm going to have to take the time to record all the HFS moments in the game that point to what is going on... The indoctrination videos are good, but they miss out on so much more in dialog and visual cues as to the point of ME3.

The first organic ever... to resist indoctrination... unless of course you pic blue or green. Just sayin.

How many times does Shep have to tell you all to 'say focused'! What is THE mission? Destroy the Reapers... at any cost...

You want to let your feelings and ego get in the way of your choice (saving the Geth/Helping Edi) and oh no - all the Relays will be destroyed! Oh my!

"I won't let fear(, ego, or emotions) change who I am." Shep; ME2

[Flidget]

tomcplotts wrote...

nice try, but starbrat literally says you are the first one to make it that far.
reboot...

I don't see why we have to believe anything the Crucible says.

[Cheopz]

@Turbo_J

hmmm... as you said: "first organic ever to resist indoctrination unless you pick blue or green"
think about it... as i recall it was somwhere in this thread statet that it could be possible that in other cycles the keepers where "reprogrammed" like the protheans did... even in our cycle it is possible to scan the keepers despite its believed to be impossible... so after all it could be possible that other cycles disabled the citadels relay-function as well... following this line as far as shepard comes and its likely that "power-hungry" (as i see them) organics finally loose thier confidence to destroy the reapers and choose to control instead... even many players think that this would be an agreeable choice... indoctrination finally succesfull... ^^

another point for the IT that i haven't seen anywhere (as i recall) is the design of ME3 itself... it seems like it tries to force you to rush trough the game to minimalize the chance to get indoctrinated (IF you believe in the IT)... think about it: the longer you play, the more side missions you do, the more EMS you gather... all leads to more time for the indoctrination to work your brain... if you du minimalistic run with as low as possible EMS-points (i believe approximately 1,500) you wont get any choice in the end but destroy... if you get to the end with all three choices available catty approaches you with "wake up"... but if you only can destroy, catty sounds a little pissed with his first words "why are you here?"

ok... i know the IT itself is not the theme of this thread, so i better stop now... ^^

[Turbo_J]

Cheopz wrote...

@Turbo_J

hmmm... as you said: "first organic ever to resist indoctrination unless you pick blue or green"
think about it... as i recall it was somwhere in this thread statet that it could be possible that in other cycles the keepers where "reprogrammed" like the protheans did... even in our cycle it is possible to scan the keepers despite its believed to be impossible... so after all it could be possible that other cycles disabled the citadels relay-function as well... following this line as far as shepard comes and its likely that "power-hungry" (as i see them) organics finally loose thier confidence to destroy the reapers and choose to control instead... even many players think that this would be an agreeable choice... indoctrination finally succesfull... ^^

another point for the IT that i haven't seen anywhere (as i recall) is the design of ME3 itself... it seems like it tries to force you to rush trough the game to minimalize the chance to get indoctrinated (IF you believe in the IT)... think about it: the longer you play, the more side missions you do, the more EMS you gather... all leads to more time for the indoctrination to work your brain... if you du minimalistic run with as low as possible EMS-points (i believe approximately 1,500) you wont get any choice in the end but destroy... if you get to the end with all three choices available catty approaches you with "wake up"... but if you only can destroy, catty sounds a little pissed with his first words "why are you here?"

ok... i know the IT itself is not the theme of this thread, so i better stop now... ^^

Actually based on the content of the original post, indoctrination is the subject to be considered.

There are also queues by squadies and ship mates and even the Results of Shep's actions throughout the game that counter the God Kid's arguments and give hints as to what is right or wrong; possible or impossible. There are also chats early in the game pertaining to the validity of the ending sequence that should clue players into impossibilities or uncharacteristic behavior of your crew. Things that should give the player pause when they are faced with such. Like Joker's implied mutiny when fleeing Sol just ahead of the event horizon of the Citadel energy burst... to a planet within FTL? That can support life; that incidentally looks identical to the planet Zorya, which is on the other side of the galaxy. How the...?

The energy burst, regardless of color, damages the Normandy during this escape sequence... so this would imply the entire armada of Allied forces in Sol is near destroyed or outright obliterated.

Joker after Turian Platoon: "You stole the Normandy, got blown up by the Collectors and sent us on a suicide mission to the galactic core -- and I haven't mutinied once. Not once!

So is it only Liara that says something about taking a ship to a far off place where you could live out your life, safe from the war prior to the attack on Cronos? Is that her line only when romanced or does it come up regardless? Do other LI's say it? Seems funny she would say that and then; poof, the ship files off to an untouched world, seemingly safe from the war... Shep has a nice hopeful imagination.

Why, after being hit by the beam, are the rock piles around the two Makos covered in the Virmire victims armor skin... the head image is too blury for detail, but Ash and Kaidin's ME1 armor is unmistakable.

Why does TIM look younger than he should if he's really on the Citadel... and what's with the Reapertech skin? He may have had implants done according to the video on Cronos, but I doubt he looks like a cyborg. He's also on Omega; remember? Anyone look at his face when they flip to him diring the Mars mission? Tim looks to Shep like he did during ME2 + Reaper tech crap... and if you recall, the QEC seemed to make him look younger so that's always how he looked to Shep.

My guess is Shepard is partially indoctrinated... Anderson and Tim are elements of that. Anderson is also looking at shep when he says. "Listen to yourslef... you're indoctrinated."

TIM = Repaer tech in Shep + doubt = Devil on one shoulder
Anderson = Flesh + resistance = Angle on the other shoulder

After Anderson is shot by Shep, Shepard bleeds from an abdominal wound that had not been there before...

This is just off the top of my head and the tip of the iceberg of clues throughout the game.. Hell, Shep is knocked across the room at Alliance HQ and knocked unconcious for just a moment... The only time we know for sure they were temporarily incapacitated besides the beam hit by Harbi...

How do you know that anything else happening after that point at Alliance HQ is real? How did the kid get from one side of Alliance HQ to the balcony where Shep fights the first husks; just before the beam hits the building... Look at the balcony on approach and you'll see the kid by the railing... how the hell did he get there. And how does he go through a locked door? And how does he survive the Reaper beam hitting the building when the vent is in the direct path the beam/explosion would have taken.

Why does the reaper growl (when Anderson interrupts Shep 's conversation with the kid) sound like it's coming from inside the duct?

I could go on forever... well, for the length of the game... people who don't buy IT won't buy it ever... if it turns out that Harbinger was not trying to indoctrinate Shep throughout the game, I'll be flabbergasted and quite curious how BW explains all the weirdness in the game that directly points to it... if they ever bother to do so.

[Cheopz]

@Turbo_J

yeah... i'm familiar with the IT... it wasn't my intention to characterize it as nonsense... in fact it is the most obvious theorie i know so far... what i meant was that you don't need to take IT into account for the theorie of the OP (it is as good with IT as it is good without)... so this thread is not about the IT itself... just saying

(...)
So is it only Liara that says something about taking a ship to a far off place where you could live out your life, safe from the war prior to the attack on Cronos? Is that her line only when romanced or does it come up regardless? Do other LI's say it? Seems funny she would say that and then; poof, the ship files off to an untouched world, seemingly safe from the war... Shep has a nice hopeful imagination.
(...)

you mean this:
Liara romance scene

afaik liara is the only character with such a line and only if she is the LI... though this is the scene that push you into the most thinking, i already wonder about how liara is pushed into attention in ME3... i mean she's the shadowbroker, right? one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy since introduced in ME1... could be a significant asset to the reapers, right? add this to the foreseeing-scene and it could get you to dark places... ^^

Modifié par Cheopz, 12 avril 2012 - 02:40 .

[Turbo_J]

Cheopz wrote...

@Turbo_J

yeah... i'm familiar with the IT... it wasn't my intention to characterize it as nonsense... in fact it is the most obvious theorie i know so far... what i meant was that you don't need to take IT into account for the theorie of the OP (it is as good with IT as it is good without)... so this thread is not about the IT itself... just saying

(...)
So is it only Liara that says something about taking a ship to a far off place where you could live out your life, safe from the war prior to the attack on Cronos? Is that her line only when romanced or does it come up regardless? Do other LI's say it? Seems funny she would say that and then; poof, the ship files off to an untouched world, seemingly safe from the war... Shep has a nice hopeful imagination.
(...)

you mean this:
Liara romance scene

afaik liara is the only character with such a line and only if she is the LI... though this is the scene that push you into the most thinking, i already wonder about how liara is pushed into attention in ME3... i mean she's the shadowbroker, right? one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy since introduced in ME1... could be a significant asset to the reapers, right? add this to the foreseeing-scene and it could get you to dark places... ^^

I have to laugh. First and foremost, my canon romanced Liara and so do a few of my other Sheps. In ME1, my first/canon playthrough I wanted to airlock her until Feros. I was convinced she was just waiting to turn on me. After Feros and Novaria, I just wanted to put her in the brig; if there was one... I knew I needed her, just didn't trust her and avoided talking to her. After Virmire things changed and my Shep gave in and romanced her.

In ME3, after the initial greeting on Mars and the Prothian device reveal I got all flashbacky to the Liara I did not trust. She was in the right place at the right time to find this thing? She pushed the fact that 'they' should try at least. At the same time she reflected hesitation and doubt... the shpeel about scurying around when their fate was inevitable; to prompted Shep to reassure her that researching the archives was the right thing to do...

On Eden Prime... she was too mater-of-fact about what the cipher could do... she would say, it lets you see instead of it must let you see. This could be just poor dialog used partially to bring new/first time players up to speed on the cipher, but it still rubbed me the wrong way. I was so convinced by London she was involved/indoctrinated, I refused the gift on my first playthrough. I didn't even talk to her unless required on my second play through with a different Shep.

Liara, herself, may not know...

Indoctrination: excerpts

"Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

"A subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why."

"Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time."

I suspect Shep is ->(as God Kid says - "the fact that you are 'here' (relative term))<- the first organic ever" to fully resist Indoctrination right up until the 'choice'.

[blurr1985]

Turbo_J, thanks for the support on my theory, but lets please stay on topic.

As Cheopz said, my theory can work with our without IT. Although it is much more powerful with.

[Cheopz]

hey... i was mentioned by the thread-master! i'm important!!! lol

/little bump btw
nearly two weeks and nothing new here... time to bring back some life and new ideas and opinions to this thread...

[dr888]

Hi,something occured to me:what if Shepard is really (physically) indeed on Citadel/Crucible and does "do the walk" and DOES choose but his perception of events and surroundings as we (player/Shepard) see is distorted (indoctrination/wound/consussion after hit by beam):I mean his mind is tring to fill the gaps -talking to Anderson (his good side-as we see he destrys Reapers)and the TIM (his bad/hoping for survival? side) ; how could they be present at control station?; it is his way of battling a conflict within as they are part of his mind;holo-kid is just his mind translating VI controlling Citadel/Crucible as a kid (whom he believes he failed to save on Earth) but he has glimpses of reality too (comm message from Hacket who seems to comment on present situation). Why do we see him lifted on platform to "starchild"?-this scene is very sharp and focused, unlike "the walk" and following conversation.I admit I chose Synthesis first-but now it seems to me that Destroy it is the only option for which Shepard opted in all 3 games. I noticed too that only in this ending he is not turned from within into husk-like creature (my interpretation) and has no strange glow in his eyes. I know it is nothing new. If it is true thought than "the rubble" scene happenes also on Citadel after destroying Reapers (I do not see nothing in the background that suggests he is physically still in London). I am not convinced of full indoctrination as Sheprad seems to really want to destroy Reapers throughout all games-only at final scene he (or rather we) wavers.It could be supported by the fact that kid-VI's vocie is 3 voices as some players say.

[dr888]

xsdob wrote...

I think that this was the first time the crucible ever made it to the catalyst. It showed that this cycle was different from the rest by doing what no other cycle ever managed to before.

Shepard passed the test, so he was given the power to change the future. Simple as that to me.

Otherwise, how come the prothena vi states that all other attmepts to build the crucible were sabotauged and never worked.

HI, I agree with xsdob.
what I do not understand:blush: is : if all 3 endings are hallucinations and control and synthesis are result of indoctrination and reapers survive in them - then why mass relays are detroyed ? after all they are key to guiding races into development path   wanted by Reapers (as stated by Nazara in ME1). It seems to me that relays' destruction is an  argument  to support  theory that Catalyst/Citadel may indeed have been  reprogrammed/upgraded by Crucible ; It could mean also that Crucible is  not a reaper construct/plan -a trap if You will-  for other races to focus on and waste efforts and time.

[Dnayew]

Every time such SPECULATION goes on Marauder Shields gets his wings.

Seriously tho....pretty cool theory.

[omntt]

Don't you like being part robot OP?
It maybe comes at the little expense of your individuality, or maybe your free will.

Aynway, I'm absolutely with you. Hoping EC will show us that the other 2 final choices were just the ultimate temptations.

[dr888]

and what about this:harbinger is a previous "Shepard" who chose control, maybe even Prothean as he chose Protheans as puppets? (we see no creatures from previous cycles (Inushannon ?) -lack of money/time ?)
I think the answer to IT and Shepard's resistance to Reaper influence is somehow linked with the fact that Shepard is is the only one understanding both Prothean beacon in ME1 and in following messages (Cipher/ Javik statis records); even Liara does not understands them (which to me suggest also that she is not indoctrinated);-there is absolutely nothing to to explaint his unique ability, only Liara comments on it in ME1 (very strong mind etc.)

[OdanUrr]

blurr1985 wrote...

The dialog with the Prothean VI on Thessia reveals the most vital information in the entire game (arguably the series).

Shepard asks "why didn't you use the crucible in your time?" The VI says: "We were sabotaged from within.  Splinter groups believed we could dominate the Reapers rather than destroy him.  We later found out they were indoctrinated."

If this is what the VI says (I'm taking your word for it), it would seem TIM was not the first to believe he could control the Reapers.

blurr1985 wrote... 

This directly foreshadows the final choice that Shepard is faced with.  It pretty much confirms that Control and Synthesis are the indoctrinated options.  While choosing to destroy breaks the indoctrination and Shepard wakes up in rubble.

Ah, I see the not-so-subtle hand of IT at work. How does this confirm control is bad? It only says that indoctrinated agents tried to sabotage the Protheans' use of the Crucible because they favoured control rather than destroy. But where does it say that the Crucible will destroy the Reapers rather than control them? Hasn't it been established that nobody knew how the Crucible works? And considering how the Crucible works in the final scene, it's actually more likely that it was designed with control in mind (and maybe some vestiges of synthesis) rather than destroy. After all, with control you have some semblance of a control panel whereas with destroy you have to shoot at something. Besides, even after choosing control, Shepard could set the Reapers on a collision course with the sun.

blurr1985 wrote...  

But here it is.  In the most significant dialog in the entire series, the VI says that they've found out that time is cyclical, and that 'patterns repeat' in the galaxy/Universe, but they are not exact, they are 'similar'.

Yes... patterns repeat... maybe... so? And by the by, the Catalyst tells you the same thing, doesn't he?

blurr1985 wrote...  

This leads me to believe that, in past cycles, there were other Shepard-like (in character) beings that were faced with the choice.  And all of them chose control; every cycle. Hence why the Reapers still exist in our Shepard's time.

That's quite the leap you made there... with zero evidence to support it. If we're going by what characters say, the Catalyst clearly states you're the first to have made it that far.

blurr1985 wrote...  

The fact that we see Shepard in the rubble taking a breath means the starchild lied when he said "you have synthetic parts, you will also die" (paraphrasing).

No, the Catalyst merely implies that you may die as well because "even you are partly synthetic." He doesn't know, otherwise he would simply tell you same as he does with control, "you will die, you will control us but you will lose everything you have."

blurr1985 wrote...  

So if we take it that starchild is not trustworthy, then is it really true when he says that Shepard is the "first organic" to ever make it up there?

I'm willing to concede that the Catalyst is not being completely honest about his situation, but that's just my own personal assumption, it's not based on facts.

blurr1985 wrote...  

Even if you think starchild is telling the truth about that,and Shepard is the first organic up there, then that
still leaves the possibilty that the previous Shepard-like beings were synthetic or even something not organic or synthetic.

Yeah... I'm going with 'no' here.

blurr1985 wrote...  

Some might  say, "oh but the crucible never got built, it was built over millions of years.."  But since patterns repeat, then that means the Crucible did get built before, if you go back far enough, perhaps billions of years.

You have to expand your concept and scope of time.

Not enough evidence. That whole "patterns repeat" speech was just vague foreshadowing of the Catalyst.

blurr1985 wrote...  

Shepard's decision to destroy is the most significant decision ever made in the entire history of the galaxy because he was the only one ever, that chose to break the cycle.

PS: I 100% believe in I.T. But this particular theory is independent of whether you believe I.T. or not.

Again, not enough information. We don't know the entire history of the galaxy, we only know the here and now.

As for this "theory" being independent of IT, it's not according to what I read. See, most of your arguments are predicated on the assumption that the Catalyst is lying to you. Okay, let's assume for one second that the Catalyst is lying to you, why is he lying to you then? If he's not going to be upfront about your situation, to the best of his knowledge, why put Shepard in the situation in the first place? Shepard didn't find the Catalyst, the Catalyst found Shepard. If the Catalyst is lying, there has to be a purpose. What is that purpose?

[blurr1985]

OdanUrr wrote...

Ah, I see the not-so-subtle hand of IT at work. How does this confirm control is bad? It only says that indoctrinated agents tried to sabotage the Protheans' use of the Crucible because they favoured control rather than destroy. But where does it say that the Crucible will destroy the Reapers rather than control them? Hasn't it been established that nobody knew how the Crucible works? And considering how the Crucible works in the final scene, it's actually more likely that it was designed with control in mind (and maybe some vestiges of synthesis) rather than destroy. After all, with control you have some semblance of a control panel whereas with destroy you have to shoot at something. Besides, even after choosing control, Shepard could set the Reapers on a collision course with the sun.

How much more confirmation do you need?  Was showing T.I.M. activating the control option not enough?

It may have been established that no one knew how the Crucible worked.  But you are limited in your concept of time (a recurring theme on this thread, pun not intended). 

It does not mean no one ever knew how it worked, or that it never got built before.  Billions of cycles ago... The "destroy rather than control" line the Prothean VI says doesn't necessarily mean he is talking about the Crucible.  In ME1, Saren thought he could control Sovereign, and he knew nothing of the Crucible. We later find out Saren was indoctrinated...HMMMM...

It's more designed for control? Thats your opinion.  It clearly has 3 choices to make.  Just because the Destroy option doesn't have a fancy 'control panel' associated with it doesn't mean anything.  Why even have a destroy section of the Crucible if it was "designed more for Control" as you seem to think?

Send the Reapers into the Sun?  Or more likely, as evidenced by the fact that Starchild is a liar, he is lying to you altogether about controlling them?

OdanUrr wrote...

Yes... patterns repeat... maybe... so? And by the by, the Catalyst tells you the same thing, doesn't he?

So?  Are you really asking that?  I guess the nature of TIME ITSELF is not a big deal to you or you think its only a small detail about the ME Universe.  I suggest replaying Thessia again and really listening to the VI.

And no, the Catalyst talks about the Synthetics vs Organics cycles repeating.  The Prothean VI tells you that it goes deeper than that.

OdanUrr wrote...

That's quite the leap you made there... with zero evidence to support it. If we're going by what characters say, the Catalyst clearly states you're the first to have made it that far.

Excuse me? Zero evidence?  I really can't take you seriously.  How about when I mention that I think that because the Reapers still exist in Shepards time?  Don't skim over my post and then make your own leaps with zero evidence.

The Catalyst is very likely a liar.  And you have clearly missed the point I made that it doesn't matter if he is or isn't a liar.

OdanUrr wrote...

No, the Catalyst merely implies that you may die as well because "even you are partly synthetic." He doesn't know, otherwise he would simply tell you same as he does with control, "you will die, you will control us but you will lose everything you have."

You have to be kidding me.  Merely imply?  Really?  "He doesn't know".  Are you just making things up now?

He talks about the synthetic lifeforms that will die, and then looks at you, dramatic pause, and then says "even you are partly synthetic".  How anyone can take that to mean something else is just....

OdanUrr wrote...

Yeah... I'm going with 'no' here.

Thanks for that thorough response.

OdanUrr wrote...

Not enough evidence. That whole "patterns repeat" speech was just vague foreshadowing of the Catalyst.

Whether thats evidence or not is based on your interpretation of just how cyclical you think time is, and how far back you think it goes. 

OdanUrr wrote...
Again, not enough information. We don't know the entire history of the galaxy, we only know the here and now.

I'll say it once more.  The Reapers still exist in Shepards time.  That is how you know about the past history.  And according to Sovereign, the Reapers have always existed, 'beyond time'.

OdanUrr wrote...
As for this "theory" being independent of IT, it's not according to what I read. See, most of your arguments are predicated on the assumption that the Catalyst is lying to you. Okay, let's assume for one second that the Catalyst is lying to you, why is he lying to you then? If he's not going to be upfront about your situation, to the best of his knowledge, why put Shepard in the situation in the first place? Shepard didn't find the Catalyst, the Catalyst found Shepard. If the Catalyst is lying, there has to be a purpose. What is that purpose?

If the events are actually happening or not bears no weight on time being revealed, as canon, to be cyclical.  Whether Shepard is the first one or not to meet starchild is independent of I.T., as I explain in my OP.

The only part of the theory that relies on I.T. is the part about him being the first one to ever break indoctrination and choose the destroy option.  But that point is not the main point of the theory.  Adding in I.T. strengthens my theory, but the main point doesn't need it.


Most of my arguments are based on the Catalyst lying?  Really?  Did you even read the part where I say it doesn't matter if he is lying or not?  That has no bearing on whether or not he is the first being to meet Starchild?

Why put Shepard in that situation in the first place?  This is not the I.T. thread.  I suggest looking there for that answer.