14 réponses à ce sujet

[ChaosAgentLoki]

Gundam Seed. Yes, an anime. Before everyone decides to attack me, please hear me out as to why I suggest this.

Through all the walkthroughs and videos I've seen online for DA2 and all the forum discussions I've read, the Templar/Mage conflict has always been biased towards the Mages (many people will immediately support them), which isn't a bad thing. The fact that this writing team has so swiftly made the Templars such a reviled group is disheartening. For the storyline that I believe they are working towards to work out, it would be great for them to attempt to make the player question both sides.

In this sense, we get back to my original point. Gundam Seed (as well as Destiny to an extent) needs to be referenced. In this series they managed to pull off the feat of getting many of the viewers to question which side was right and which one was wrong. With both sides full of heroes and villains, it provided a much better insight into the conflict and made it feel far more real. Sure there was a third faction (one who was inherently 'good' in Seed, but shifted slightly in Destiny)  that kind of threw off this dynamic, but for the most part it still worked.

What I'm getting at is that the DA team could (they don't have to do this at all) benefit from looking into how Gundam Seed made this work and see how they could apply it to the continuation of their Mage vs. Templar storyline (whether it be games, films, comics, books etc.). There needs to be a questioning of whether the Mages are right or the Templars. The bias for the mages can still remain as it does help move the story along, but the Templars need to be a viable faction for players as well. Not just the opressors of mages. There needs to be people on both sides that players (or readers, consumers may even be the best term) who are sided with either side could root for even if they aren't part of their faction alignment.

I'm not trying to say that the Templars are inherently right, but at the same time I'm not trying to say that about the mages either. For a series that is claimed to rely upon shaky morality and a world full of grey, this needs to be thought of. There can still be evil Templars and evil mages, but there also needs to be heroes on both sides. Ones that make you question your choices far more than before. That's just my thoughts, thank you to all who read this spiel. I appreciate it. 

[Maria Caliban]

The writers quickly made the Templars reviled by populating Kirkwall with blood mages? Other than Bethany, I can't think of one mage in DA II that I'd want running around unregulated.

[Tpiom]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The writers quickly made the Templars reviled by populating Kirkwall with blood mages? Other than Bethany, I can't think of one mage in DA II that I'd want running around unregulated.

Not even Anders? :happy:

[Dessalines]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The writers quickly made the Templars reviled by populating Kirkwall with blood mages? Other than Bethany, I can't think of one mage in DA II that I'd want running around unregulated.

i keep wondering would the mages not have turn to Blood magic if it was not for the oppresive regime of Meredith, and then I think how Aveline was pretty much presented as strong character and she was easly persuaded  to make a bargain with a spirit of the fade. Maybe mages need to be regulated. On the other hand, the templars of Kirkwall were tranquiling messages that did not want to have sex with them, so they were just jerks. They all needed to be shut down..

[Chiramu]

I'd rather them draw inspiration from a Shakespearean Tragedy to make it a dark story than a poorly written (in many parts and places) Japanese anime.

For one thing, the Japanese cartoons talk about what they're going to do instead of doing in. Even in fight scenes. For example, the hero is fighting the bad guy, he sees an opening, so he talks to himself about it while the bad guy blathers on about his evil plans!

Too much talking, it's as bad as Days of Our Lives. I don't want Dragon Age to be so much talking it's going to lose all it's sense of Adventure. Do not want a visual novel!

[lx_theo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The writers quickly made the Templars reviled by populating Kirkwall with blood mages? Other than Bethany, I can't think of one mage in DA II that I'd want running around unregulated.

Yeah, they basically made it Freedom Vs. Being Right. I tend to choose freedom... But... Eh.

[CuriousArtemis]

The veil is pretty thin and/or torn in and around Kirkwall so that's why so many mages succumbed to demonic possession.

OP, it is hard to sympathize with the templars as a unit because they are by nature oppressors of innocent people - people who are taken from their homes not as adults, but as children. It's very difficult to be against children.

Furthermore, they are a religious institution, which makes it harder to support them, as much of our world's history of oppression and hatred has been done in the name of religion.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

Chiramu wrote...

I'd rather them draw inspiration from a Shakespearean Tragedy to make it a dark story than a poorly written (in many parts and places) Japanese anime.

For one thing, the Japanese cartoons talk about what they're going to do instead of doing in. Even in fight scenes. For example, the hero is fighting the bad guy, he sees an opening, so he talks to himself about it while the bad guy blathers on about his evil plans!

Too much talking, it's as bad as Days of Our Lives. I don't want Dragon Age to be so much talking it's going to lose all it's sense of Adventure. Do not want a visual novel!

I personally do enjoy visual novels. However, that is not what I was going for here. Bioware has not proven to me that they can write a conflict where both sides have their heroes and villains and make me question whether I'm doing the right thing. The only thing that comes anywhere close is the Geth and Quarian conflict in ME3. Even then, they failed because the Quarians were too heavily villified and it was only due to Tali that many would support them. She was the only reason I supported them as there was nothing brought up to even give me a hope of caring for the Quarians. Yes, I know they're not the DA team, but that's the best example I can come up with from Bioware as it is honestly the best I've experienced from their games.

Now, I respect your opinion of wanting inspiration drawn from a Shakespearean tragedy, however I do not want that myself. For that reason, I brought up this suggestion since Gundam Seed has shown both sides of a conflict with heroes and villains that make me question which side I'm supporting. Whether it's right or wrong and whether they'll win or lose. Also, whether I want them to win or lose. That is what I was getting at.

In an example that my resonate with more people. Game of Thrones does exactly what I'm talking about (and is one of the reasons I enjoy it) as it has characters on all sides who are villains and heroes and everything in between that make you question whether the group you're supporting is right or wrong. For example, my favorite characters are Danaerys and Arya/Jon (cannot decide between the two after a certain other character's death) . Dany in particular is the example as her faction is one I can get behind (I'm barely into Clash of Kings so bear with me here). However, characters and their actions make me question whether this is the right side to support or not. Perfectly living up to what I'm trying to get at.

Bioware has not done this in Dragon Age. From the start they villified the Templars far too much so that when the time came most people would obviously side with the Mages. That in many ways has its points, but to continue the plotline, they need to force the fact that there are heroes and villains on all sides. Reasons to support other groups, not just the Mages. If they cannot do this, I cannot see the plot going anywhere. Instead they would be better off returning to the Darkspawn and the (controversial) canon of Morrigan's god-child and solely focusing on that.

Modifié par ChaosAgentLoki, 09 avril 2012 - 12:54 .

[Hexedcoder]

How about books, you know, the things you read with words in them...without pictures. Especially, you know...the old ones, which were some of the best.

For example if it is taking place in Orlais they can draw inspiration from:

Amadis du Guala - A fantastic knighthood cycle taking place in France written back in the middle ages.

Don Quixote - While we're on the subject of knight and wizardry epics, this one is a given, written in the style of Amadis du Guala and a satiric spin on the many, many versions of knight sword and sorcery fantasy epics which were spun off of it.

The Charglemane Cycle - A sieries of fantastic tales revolving around the creation of the French state centering around Charglemane.

Anything by Alexander Dumas - The Three Musketteers, Le Comte de la Monte Cristo, etc, etc, (If you haven't read these, your education has failed you.)

The Arthurian Cycle - The tales of King Arthur and the knights of the round with the main "text" being a french book titled "Le Morte du Author" written in the Middle Ages.

The Once and Future King - Since we're talking about King Arthur, this is probably the best "Modern" interpretation of the book and an excellent read.

Beowulf - ...If you want to know everything that happened in Skyrim without playing the game for over 80 hours this book covers it all.

I know there's also the generic, slightly dated, modern fantasy like LoTR (Overrated), Gormenghast, and whatever else up until you get to the modern...nearly junk like the Sword of Truth, Wheel of Time, Game of Thrones and so on.

Yeah, Shakespeare is a good influence, as is the Canterberry Tales for greats of English Literature. Equitable tragety and "human" stories can be found in ye olde Greek Heroic Myths as well.

But the mess involving if you can't tell if a "bad" guy is really "bad" and is acting in the benefit of their faction, like an earlier poster described in Game of Thrones...that has already been put into modern video game form in the Witcher...to step away from books and make me feel dirty.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

I read books. I'm currently working through Mockingjay, The Name of the Wind, Star Wars: Riptide, Clash of Kings and The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya. I'm also always on the lookout for other books. I like to give examples from a variety of media however, I'm sorry if that insulted anyone.

I stand by my opinion as well. Bioware needs to work on improving this or they might as well make it canon that you support the mages at the rate it's going. Also, my opinion has still been misinterpreted. I'm stating that you have heroes and villains on both sides. People who do abominable things for their factions and those who stand out as Paragons or their factions. Characters who make you question whether the side you're allying yourself with is the one you want to be a part of or not. That's what I'm getting at.

However, seeing as most people seem to want a clear cut villain in DA3, I'm probably in the minority here. That's fine however as I stand by my opinion and no one can change it.

[BanksHector]

motomotogirl wrote...

The veil is pretty thin and/or torn in and around Kirkwall so that's why so many mages succumbed to demonic possession.

OP, it is hard to sympathize with the templars as a unit because they are by nature oppressors of innocent people - people who are taken from their homes not as adults, but as children. It's very difficult to be against children.

Furthermore, they are a religious institution, which makes it harder to support them, as much of our world's history of oppression and hatred has been done in the name of religion.

I found it easy to sympathize with the templars. It may look like they are against the children but they helping them out in the long run. The Templars are not prefect, but do a great service for everyone.  I can only think of 2 mages so far in DA Games that do not deserve to be locked in the towers.

Modifié par BanksHector, 09 avril 2012 - 04:04 .

[ChaosAgentLoki]

sjpelkessjpeler you have brought up very valid points. A good chunk of my impressions come from walkthroughs and forum posts. However, with all the hatred for Templars on the forums, it is hard to see it as anything different. Thank you for giving your views.