233 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkeus]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Very good work! But apart form that Javik confirmed it in dialogue in some part of the game - unlogical ending = ignorance of the players.

Not really, but believe what you want.  Lol....

[PsyrenY]

Computron2000 wrote...

Hmm, so you're saying that no one can retreat because... you're saying no one can retreat?

Retreating is pointless. Falling back is pointless. You're only delaying the inevitable.

That super fleet you assembled and took to Sol? That's as good as it gets for the galaxy, and it's still not enough. It might take 50 years or 500 after that to put this cycle away, but it will happen. You can shove your head in the sand and pretend otherwise but the game simply doesn't support your beliefs.

Computron2000 wrote... 
My apologies as i thought you were intelligent enough to understand...

That you resort to childish salvos like this just proves to me that all you wanted was a happy Disney ending and aren't mature enough for gritty storytelling.

Computron2000 wrote...  
What can you do? Open the arms, draw as many of them in with the fleet and close the arms.

What magic spell are you using to do these things? Are you using the datafile from ME1 that (a) you clearly don't have on you and ( Vigil told you was temporary anyway? With the now activated Catalyst sitting there watching you?

It's preposterous.

Computron2000 wrote...   
Oh i thought its obvious. As an engineer, Shepard would be trained in such operations.

Alliance engineer training covers hacking god A.I.s? Please link me to that Codex entry so I can have a good laugh.

Its funny. You're parroting my point

Computron2000 wrote...
These are possibilities that you could do in a taletop RPG. However the real problem lies in that this is a story. If you force the player into fixed actions by sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalala", your story has a major major problem.

If this was a novel, readers would be asking why would he choose red/green/blue (depending on the ending the writer took) because the reader would also come to the same conclusion of why agree with the kid who came out from nowhere and actually told you he made the creatures that are your nemesis.

And that was my very first post on this thread.

Your point: "In a tabletop RPG you could do these things."
My point: Mass Effect isn't a tabletop RPG."
You: "UR PAROTING MY POINT LOLOLOL"

Seems legit.

[Nobrandminda]

I guess the Catalyst really does have those paradox crumple zones after all.

[Sepharih]

inko1nsiderate wrote...
Even if the Geth make peace, point 1 could still stand, even EDI remarks that we hardly have enough examples of synthetic civilization to properly generalize. This is a case were empirical evidence of many synthetic civilizations would allow you to at least induce whether or not statement 1 is reasonable. A single example of a synthetic civilization isn't going to give you enough confidence to say 'point 1 has been disproved'.

Regardless, there is one point I will make that I've yet to feel has been answered.
Let's suppose that the conclusion the catalyst has made is inevitable without his "solution".
If that's the case then show, don't tell.  If you are going to show the viewer/player that peace between the Organics and synthetics is possible through things like the Geth and EDI, then telling them in the last five minutes of the story that peace is impossible is both a blatant contradiction of the stories themes as well as a massive failure from a narrative perspective.  The divine proclamations of a previously unseen character ring pretty hollow when you've seen evidence to the contrary of what he's saying.  It's poor storytelling.

Modifié par Sepharih, 09 avril 2012 - 01:00 .

[PsyrenY]

Byronic-Knight wrote...

But, you continue to think it couldn't happen because Hackett said it couldn't. . . even though everyone told you in ME2 that going through the Omega 4 relay meant certain death. And also, in that amazing cutscene showing the fleet arriving at Earth, you see one of the Reapers go down anyway.

Garrus tells you that too. And Liara. And Anderson. Everyone that talks to you about the Crucible knows it's the only option.
And Shepard doesn't once contradict their assertions, because he/she knows it too.

But I guess none of those characters know anything.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 09 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[CavScout]

Unless you can see the future, Shep can't say that organics won't be threatened in his cycle by future Geth actions or another synthetic creation.

PS: We have plenty of evidence for synthetic-organic conflict throughout all the ME games.

[Sepharih]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Byronic-Knight wrote...

But, you continue to think it couldn't happen because Hackett said it couldn't. . . even though everyone told you in ME2 that going through the Omega 4 relay meant certain death. And also, in that amazing cutscene showing the fleet arriving at Earth, you see one of the Reapers go down anyway.

Garrus tells you that too. And Liara. And Anderson. Everyone that talks to you about the Crucible knows it's the only option.
And Shepard doesn't once contradict their assertions, because he/she knows it too.

But I guess none of those characters know anything.

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible.  Often times it's part of their character arc.

[Byronic-Knight]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

You can't debate with the star child because not accepting his options means everyone gets harvested. I mean seriously, you say no and everyone dies I really don't see why everyone wants to defy him, it means doom. That is why Shepard didn't argue because there was no other option.

"But but but, *MY* Shepard would have figured out another way to save everybody!" -- somebody, somewhere

"For people who are invested in these characters and the backstory of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations."

--Casey Hudson

http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx 

[PsyrenY]

Sepharih wrote...

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible.  Often times it's part of their character arc.

Characters do, certainly. But the army has no character arc.

[ZajoE38]

Darkeus wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Very good work! But apart form that Javik confirmed it in dialogue in some part of the game - unlogical ending = ignorance of the players.

Not really, but believe what you want.  Lol....

I believe in facts. And they are more than obvious. You are denying the truth. You rather live in deception, because it is more comfortable for you than thinking. Confidence born of ignorance.

[Byronic-Knight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Byronic-Knight wrote...

But, you continue to think it couldn't happen because Hackett said it couldn't. . . even though everyone told you in ME2 that going through the Omega 4 relay meant certain death. And also, in that amazing cutscene showing the fleet arriving at Earth, you see one of the Reapers go down anyway.

Garrus tells you that too. And Liara. And Anderson. Everyone that talks to you about the Crucible knows it's the only option.
And Shepard doesn't once contradict their assertions, because he/she knows it too.

But I guess none of those characters know anything.

A) Thanks for disregarding the second part of that post. 

And : 

Sepharih wrote. . . 

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible. Often times it's part of their character arc.

*edit* and since I saw your reply to that quote, I have to ask you: Why they hell bother preparing in the first place? 

I mean, really. If you're going to go through everything Shepard has in the past three games, just to give up on himself, and his fleet, and put his faith entirely in a hologram he just met, why didn't he just say to the council at the beginning of 3: "The only thing we can do: Surrender."

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 09 avril 2012 - 01:14 .

[Hudathan]

Motherlander wrote...

Perhaps the the choices of the Catalyst are limited by the crucible.

Of course they are, because he didn't build the thing. The Crucible is your technology, the Catalyst does not give you anything new. If you don't like the RGB choices, blame the other cycles who designed such a strange device.

[Computron2000]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Retreating is pointless. Falling back is pointless. You're only delaying the inevitable.

That super fleet you assembled and took to Sol? That's as good as it gets for the galaxy, and it's still not enough. It might take 50 years or 500 after that to put this cycle away, but it will happen. You can shove your head in the sand and pretend otherwise but the game simply doesn't support your beliefs.

Remarkable. Despite me expressedly pointing out that i was not talking about a head on fight... you think its a head on fight...Truly remarkable.

Again let me point this out. Has Hackett ever, ever, in his wildest dreams thought that he could identify the god of the reapers? And you tell him who the god of the reapers is, after which you still think he smashes himself against the Reapers head on?

Optimystic_X wrote...
That you resort to childish salvos like this just proves to me that all you wanted was a happy Disney ending and aren't mature enough for gritty storytelling.

Oh its hardly childish. As i already mentioned, you leaps of logic is quite extraordinary. Bolstered by the fact of the first part of your reply, i can only say that i continued to underestimate the amount of explaination i had to do. Again my apologies for the lack of consideration on your circumstances.

Optimystic_X wrote...
What magic spell are you using to do these things? Are you using the datafile from ME1 that (a) you clearly don't have on you and ( Vigil told you was temporary anyway? With the now activated Catalyst sitting there watching you?

It's preposterous.

That room you were in with Anderson. What exactly did that panel do? Perhaps open the citadel arms?

Optimystic_X wrote...
Alliance engineer training covers hacking god A.I.s? Please link me to that Codex entry so I can have a good laugh.

Fascinating, i believe you understood my other points and found your wifi argument silly hence the strawman argument.

Optimystic_X wrote...
Your point: "In a tabletop RPG you could do these things."
My point: Mass Effect isn't a tabletop RPG."
You: "UR PAROTING MY POINT LOLOLOL"
Seems legit.

My dear fellow, please be a good boy and read the rest of that quoted section as well?

[Sepharih]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible.  Often times it's part of their character arc.

Characters do, certainly. But the army has no character arc.

No, but Shepard does.  You might think it corny, but I would find it beautifully Cathartic and emotionally satisfying to witness an army and galaxy Shepard brought together achieve victory against all odds and disbelief.

[ZajoE38]

ME and ME3 is set as it is. Developers wanted it that way. It is not reality, it is their fantasy. In ME universe synthetics will always rebell, that was the point since ME1 and we must take it as we play ME. And since this mathematics is good read, they are not valid for ME universe. You can't argue with the book writer or movie director that his point would not work in reality. Every movie, every game must have a plothole, because it's a game. And you must obey it's law.

EDIT - and behavior alorithms are much more complicated that his simple mathematics. They evolve, adapt, interact with enviroment etc. For sentient being - what is valid in one second, in other moment could be invalid, priorities can be shifted due to new input. 

Modifié par ZajoE38, 09 avril 2012 - 01:19 .

[PsyrenY]

Byronic-Knight wrote...

A) Thanks for disregarding the second part of that post.

I didn't think I needed to point out the obvious disparity in needing multiple shots from half a fleet, to take out one Reaper that wasn't even Sovereign-class.

Nor did I need to address that "going down swinging" does nothing useful, however grand a gesture of defiance it might be.

Byronic-Knight wrote...
And : 

Sepharih wrote. . . 

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible. Often times it's part of their character arc.

To which I replied:

Optimystic_X wrote...

Characters do, certainly. But the army has no character arc.

[CavScout]

Sepharih wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible.  Often times it's part of their character arc.

Characters do, certainly. But the army has no character arc.

No, but Shepard does.  You might think it corny, but I would find it beautifully Cathartic and emotionally satisfying to witness an army and galaxy Shepard brought together achieve victory against all odds and disbelief.

They did and yet you hated it.

[PsyrenY]

Sepharih wrote...

No, but Shepard does.

Shepard IS beating them, with the Crucible.

[Byronic-Knight]

DarkShadow wrote...

Byronic-Knight wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Paragon Fury wrote...

It wouldn't have been a debate really; it would've just been Shepard pimp-smacking Starchild with logic.

To which it would reply "your anecdotes are nice and all but you haven't convinced me, now pick a color." Then what?

You refuse, watch the enormous fleet you've assembled destroy the Reapers, the Normandy swings around to the Citadel, you sacracstically salute the Catalyst, say "Well, it's been interesting," and go back to Earth.

He doesn't make you choose. There isn't a timer of some sort where, if you don't pick one, everything ends anyway, there isn't any sense of urgency in the scene. He just presents you with door number 1, 2, and 3, tells you what's behind each, and says pick. If all the options suck---to you---and you've gathered the might of the galaxy, enough that you could defeat the Reapers without making a choice, then why choose?

Uuuh, yes there is? If you don't choose fast enough, the reapers destroy the citadel and you die. Just wanted to point that out.

Then why they hell didn't they attack the Crucible when it was being parked ever-so-delicately?

It seems to me they were a bit preöccupied with the armada they were waging war with. 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 09 avril 2012 - 01:36 .

[The Night Mammoth]

CavScout wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible.  Often times it's part of their character arc.

Characters do, certainly. But the army has no character arc.

No, but Shepard does.  You might think it corny, but I would find it beautifully Cathartic and emotionally satisfying to witness an army and galaxy Shepard brought together achieve victory against all odds and disbelief.

They did and yet you hated it.

Maybe because it isn't a victory to him.

Shepard dies, Anderson dies, your crew is stranded, the Reapers are only destroyed in one ending, the Mass Relays blow up, the fleet is stranded, Earth is devestated without hope of reprieve. I fail to see where the sweetness is. 

[Byronic-Knight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Byronic-Knight wrote...

A) Thanks for disregarding the second part of that post.

I didn't think I needed to point out the obvious disparity in needing multiple shots from half a fleet, to take out one Reaper that wasn't even Sovereign-class.

Nor did I need to address that "going down swinging" does nothing useful, however grand a gesture of defiance it might be.

Byronic-Knight wrote...
And : 

Sepharih wrote. . . 

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible. Often times it's part of their character arc.

To which I replied:

Optimystic_X wrote...

Characters do, certainly. But the army has no character arc.

Don't know if you noticed the edit, but:

since I saw your reply to that quote, I have to ask you: Why they hell bother preparing in the first place? 

I mean, really. If you're going to go through everything Shepard has in the past three games, just to give up on himself, and his fleet, and put his faith entirely in a hologram he just met, why didn't he just say to the council at the beginning of 3: "The only thing we can do: Surrender." 


That defeatist attitude is what loses fights before they start. 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 09 avril 2012 - 01:25 .

[Sepharih]

CavScout wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Characters very often achieve things they initially do not believe are possible.  Often times it's part of their character arc.

Characters do, certainly. But the army has no character arc.

No, but Shepard does.  You might think it corny, but I would find it beautifully Cathartic and emotionally satisfying to witness an army and galaxy Shepard brought together achieve victory against all odds and disbelief.

They did and yet you hated it.

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

No, but Shepard does.

Shepard IS beating them, with the Crucible.

I would prefer the fleet rather than the crucible, in spite of all proclamations of it being "impossible".

Also, I do not mind the "Crucible" as much as I mind the "catalyst".  The crucible is a lame plot device...but it doesn't contradict the entire themes of the series.

If they recut the ending to go like this:
 

and then added on the extended cut dlc for closure with the characters I would be satissfied.  The ending would still be underwhelming...but it'd be ok.

[humes spork]

So, you get to debate the Catalyst. Then what?

Shepard's gathered forces -- which were stated more than a few times during the game by none other than Hackett himself -- to be a diversion and delaying tactic for the Crucible's deployment -- are still stuck in a system-wide battle they can't win against the numerically- and technologically-superior Reaper forces.

Yeah, one Reaper capital ship goes down during that. Keyword, one. What's the cost for that? Multiple cruisers and dreadnoughts. It's pretty obvious in the context of the cutscenes conventional victory for the fleets are an impossibility.

Standing around talking the Catalyst to death doesn't change that. Rather, it would be in the Catalyst's -- and the Reapers' -- favor to draw Shepard into a long-winded chat about organic/synthetic conflict and the nature of existence, giving the Reapers the opportunity to rally and destroy the Crucible before mopping up the resistance fleet.

Hell, all the Catalyst would have to do were it solely interested in continuing the cycle would be to let Shepard bleed out in the control room. For all the "why did the Catalyst need Sovereign or Saren to activate the relay if it was there the whole time? PLOTHOLE!"-style complaining you can do, I can counter with "why didn't the Catalyst space the Citadel control room and get rid of Shepard and TIM at the same time?".

But, the Catalyst does none of this. Why? Because it's already ceded the point. Debating its logic, motivations, or goals is completely mirthless, because it's already conceded. The organics built the Crucible, the cycle is well beyond the Catalyst's control and even if it completes this extinction the future is completely up in the air. Everything else is more or less Shepard dictating the terms of surrender.

So, I say again: what do you people complaining about the Catalyst's logic hope to accomplish? Pointing at the Catalyst and doing the Nelson "HA-HA" and having to go through with using the Crucible anyway?

Modifié par humes spork, 09 avril 2012 - 01:30 .

[M0keys]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

In which case, you fail as a GM. Anyone could contrive a reason such as " As you're hacking, rocks fall on you and your die from 1000000d6 damage", "As you try to contact Hackett, Harbinger teleports in and beams you in the face for 10 million d6 damage", As you look for the elevator, you die because i'm the GM"

This is a common trait among those who really really should never try to run a tabletop game or write and adventure module.

Whereas "the players should always have their every whim catered to" is a common trait among people that have no business crafting a serious world or setting.

The player shouldn't always have their every whim be catered to, but every base desire.

Unless you want to go and explain to me why the original Star Wars was such a failure. In which case, hoo boy, let's rock and roll, baby!

[Sepharih]

humes spork wrote...
So, I say again: what do you people complaining about the Catalyst's logic hope to accomplish? Pointing at the Catalyst and doing the Nelson "HA-HA" and having to go through with using the Crucible anyway?

I believe most of us are of the opinion that the starchild and everything relating to him in this section should never have even existed in the first place.  Him simply existing and talking to shepard at all should be purged from canon entirely.
However, I think it simply adds insult to injury and results in a character assasination on top of everything else to not even allow Shepard the chance to call him on his BS.