34 réponses à ce sujet

[Demigod]

So we need a grey warden to kill the archdemon and take in its essence and die ending both "lives" right

We are told the first "wardens" who couldn't have been real grey wardens at the time ( no seremony and no arch demon blood) all died killing the first arch demon but thier followers took up their task and therefore became the first real grey wardens by drinking working out the ceremony and drinking the archdemons blood

Great conversation that must have been

"Hay the arch demon is dead"
"Hay the blight is over) "

"Right we have no evidence to suggest it but they will return in x number of years we must do something!"

"I know we will ask the now universally reviled mages who caused this to play around with darkspawn and archdemon blood to turn us into hybrid human darkspawn so we can fight them better in x number of years!"

"Great idea but its not the newly outlawed blood magic though right?"
"Of course not! Its not human blood and we will be grey wardens we are hereos. Well the dead guys were supposed to be hero's are anyway, we can ignore the new prohibition"
"But why do we need to do this? They dead guys that killed the arch demon didnt need the blood ritual?
"Oh no another archdeomn has formed over there! The Taint/spirit of the first had morphed a suspiciously ork like creature into a demon/old god like dragon thingy."
"See I said we needed the blood"
"no we need a bad tempered witch with a low cut top and an embrio I tell you"
"No a grey warden to kill absorb the evil spirt/taint and die a hero"
"I like the witch idea better"
"Who knows a mage who has a couldron for the blood handy?"

So with no real grey wardens at the end of the first blight, but the need for a grey warden or a witch with an agenda to capture the fleeing tainted spirit(whatever) how was it ever ended?
Enough darkspawn wiped out that it had no one to pass to? Doubtful as it is said the darkspwn had almost wiped us out not the other way round.

The rules changed for some reason? The first one wasn't a strong for what ever reason - not really a good reason is it.
It passed the the guys that killed and ended there because they had normal taint in them from the fighting - possible but then any number of the soldiers would have as well, surely without the grey warden ritual the taint would be stronger in a real darkspawn.

If Ive missed something obvious here please tell let me know.

[Taleroth]

The thing you've missed is you're making unnecessary assumptions.



It took 90 years to end the First Blight. They could easily have killed the Archdemon, harvested its blood, figured out the ritual, then killed it again for good during this time. Anything that refers to the killing of the Archdemon and end of the First Blight most likely refers to the later, and final, killing.

[Washell]

What you missed is that human, elf and dwarf can be infected with the taint, but usually succumb within a short time period. When the 1st archdemon was slain, it's soul went to the nearest darkspawn and so on and so on. At some point the nearest darkspawn was either someone infected with the taint (most likely) or they had figured out someone would need to be infected in order to contain/kill the soul. Afterwards it was just a matter of figuring out how to infect people with the taint without making them go crazy and die within a few months to years.

[Demigod]

But they would have had to kill more than one arch demon and that is not said anywhere. We are told they killed the first archdemon to end the blight not several.

Also we are told it would pass to the nearest darkspawn not the nearest tainted soldier (as I said above)

So either they had to kill a  serial number of arch demons or they got very lucky - none of which explains why they worked out a ritual to create a grey warden as seemingly any tainted human elf or dwarf, who in such a war would not be in short supply, would do.

Modifié par Demigod, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[Taleroth]

Demigod wrote...

But there would have had to kill more than one arch demon and that is not said anywhere. We are told they killed the first archdemon to end the blight not several.

No, they would have only had to kill one archdemon, just kill it more than once.  It took them 90 years, they likely defeated it multiple times before the end.

Also we are told it would pass to the nearest darkspawn not the nearest tainted soldier (as I said above)

But a Grey Warden isn't a Darkspawn, either.  So obviously, it's not only Darkspawn.

[Demigod]

If it took minty years then why did the one group manage to kill the archdemon get wiped out and their followers become the first real wardens. did they all die fighting or of old age? It wasn't the armies that killed the demon, it is said the first grey wardens turned the tide and killed the arch demon. We have to assume they came latter in the war even if it took them twenty years to kill the arch demon, it re-spawnig x number of times would surly be mentioned.

Ok it must have happened at some point unless its a fantasy we know it will happen moment, or how would they know but it is still a bit of a plot hole.

As for passing to a grey warden not a soldier - they become warden to become closer to the darkspawn ( and live with the taint) feel them and hear the archdemon. So we can hope they have a closer tie than any soldier who is tainted by some blood on them/cut. Grey wardens are a lot closer to darkspawn then a tainted soldier by design. It doesn't mean it cant happen its just obviously lot less likely to happen.

Even if it did its still a way to end a blight without the grey wardens

Modifié par Demigod, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:06 .

[garrettmaruk]

You all forget the blood doesn't need to be the archdemon blood to become a grey warden.  Go look at the first quest you get in ostagar....

[AKOdin]

On my second playthrough (when talking to Riordan- the Gray Warden from the prison) I thought the same thing. I agree with Demi that the given explanation does not make sense.



Need Gray Wardens to kill the Archdemon when it does the taint transfer thing? K.



We don't have any during the first blight cause they came after...



As others have noted, this could be explained in a number of ways while still being consistent. For example, it could be that having ArchD blood is not necessary to the joining, only a refinement that makes it more sucessful. IE, those that killed the Arch D first had all consumed Darkspawn blood in some form, and that was enough.



Or, the 90 years allowed for multiple Arch D battles and someone collected some of the blood to study and used it on humans.

[Demigod]

garrettmaruk wrote...

You all forget the blood doesn't need to be the archdemon blood to become a grey warden.  Go look at the first quest you get in ostagar....

and some arch deomon blood which we assume  duncan had as explained latter in the game -which loghain stole  from the wardens safe in the palace.

[Vaetar]

Its Darkspawn blood, an unknown quantity of Lyrium, a drop of Archdemon blood plus an unknown ritual by the Circle of Magi. First three are codex I believe, the ritual is mentioned by Duncan.



The way it was mentioned in the game makes me think the first blight never really ended though. Or perhaps Flemmeth pulled Morrigan's trick... Was she alive at the time?

[LynxAQ]

The first blight was the longest of all the blights. 90 years I believe, and there is no clear story about how and what happened in those 90 years. As mentioned they could of killed the arch demon several times (the same guy and he just was reborn in a new body.) Obviously at some stage in the 90 years they realised how to kill the arch demon permanently and proper and hence the grey wardens came to be.



They then slew the arch demon properly to end the first blight. Thats how I understand it anyway.

[Demigod]

If they killed it serveral times it should have been mentioned in some book the first hero the second and so on and it isnt. All the books etc say the grey wardens, who wernt really grey at the time, tunred the tide and killed the arch demon, not killed it for the whatever time and it stayed down.



We are also told it was their followers not them who became the first true grey wardens. So we know the first grey wardens appered at the end of the first blight not durin and the ones who killed it were not true grey wardens.



So even if we do assume it was killed multiple times, again showing how unneeded grey wardens really are appart from the dieing part as you just need a dedicated group of well trained fighters, we still have a rather gaping plot hole.

[Washell]

The books describe events 900+ years ago. In a foreign nation. A nation which the founding mother of your nation fought hard to destroy.

Aside from that, the grey wardens are quite a secretive bunch too. It's a secret that it takes someone tainted to permanently kill the archdemon. Leaving stories around which spell out exactly why that is makes it hard to keep such secrets. Since they're an immensely powerful brotherhood with plenty of spare time between blights, I wouldn't trust any written record related to the blight unless it's straight from the warden Archives.

Finally, the Chantry have there own reasons for twisting the facts around the first blight. With the Tevinter empire being the nemesis of their prophet.

There, plothole filled. The books are inaccurate for various reasons. We'll have to wait for a prequel set during the first blight to get the straight dope.

[TheRomans]

I do believe Demigod is trolling.

[DarkSpiral]

Demigod wrote...

If they killed it serveral times it should have been mentioned in some book the first hero the second and so on and it isnt. All the books etc say the grey wardens, who wernt really grey at the time, tunred the tide and killed the arch demon, not killed it for the whatever time and it stayed down.

Actually, it is mentioned.  I'm not quite celar on WHICH Codex entry specificall, but I do
recall one of them talking about how no matter how many times Dumat was
struck down, he always returned.  It was taken as proof of his divine
nature by the Impereium's citizens.

We are also told it was their followers not them who became the first true grey wardens. So we know the first grey wardens appered at the end of the first blight not durin and the ones who killed it were not true grey wardens.

The first Grey Wardens were Grey Wardens because they SAID they
were Grey Wardens. They created the order, swore the vows, they get to
call themselves whatever they wish.  The ritual came later, once it
became clear simply striking Dumat down didn't actually finish the
job.  In the 900 years (is that the right number?) since the First
Blight the Joining has become the initiation rite, obviously.  But the
founders of the Wardens weren't any less Wardens because the Joining
hadn't been devised yet.  They gave up everything they were, everything
they might ever have been, to dedicate themselves to the sole purpose
of ending the Blight, and defeating the darkspawn.  THAT is
the definfing characteristic of being a Grey Warden.  The vast majority
of the world doesn't even know the Joining exists.  And for damn good
reasons, too.

So even if we do assume it was killed multiple times, again showing how unneeded grey wardens really are appart from the dieing part as you just need a dedicated group of well trained fighters, we still have a rather gaping plot hole.

Well, it isn't an assumption, as I said above.  And Riordan is quick to tell you that if skill and strength were all that were necessary to kill the archdemon, than nay group of warriors would suffice, so the game actually agress with you on that point.  When you get right down to it, no Grey Warden in the game ever says "Only we can fight the darkspawn," they say "only we can end the Blight."  And that's true.

[Shazzie]

Demigod wrote...

If they killed it serveral times it should have been mentioned in some book the first hero the second and so on and it isnt. All the books etc say the grey wardens, who wernt really grey at the time, tunred the tide and killed the arch demon, not killed it for the whatever time and it stayed down.

Why would there be stories of the many unsucessful attempts to defeat the Archdemon? If you kill something and it comes back...you didn't actually kill it, you just temporarily defeated it. If it takes the Archdemon a little while to recover, you might have gained yourself a temporary reprieve, but it's not over til the Archdemon is actually, fully, permanently dead.

Demigod wrote...
So even if we do assume it was killed multiple times, again showing how unneeded grey wardens really are appart from the dieing part as you just need a dedicated group of well trained fighters, we still have a rather gaping plot hole.

How unneeded Grey Wardens are? The Archdemon is never actually *dead* until slain by a Grey Warden. When slain by anyone else, or at least when slain by anyone who hasn't overcome the taint (which would have been what the one who defeated the first one did), the Archdemon just picks up a new body and gets all Archdemony all over again. No plot hole there.

[gods999]

Can't you guys just ask Bioware and see what they think sense they made the game

[XOGHunter246]

Hey this has me thinking might is possible bioware make next game going back in time to the first blight?

[gods999]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

Hey this has me thinking might is possible bioware make next game going back in time to the first blight?

Definatlly no because that would be boring sense they tell us in DA:O what happens and how it ends.

[Demigod]

Shazzie wrote...
Why would there be stories of the many unsucessful attempts to defeat the Archdemon? If you kill something and it comes back...you didn't actually kill it, you just temporarily defeated it. If it takes the Archdemon a little while to recover, you might have gained yourself a temporary reprieve, but it's not over til the Archdemon is actually, fully, permanently dead.

To warn others? So that idiots with ego trips like lohgain dont try to kill it on their own. To warn future generations of how to kill something that you had to fight for 90 yeras if they had the forsight to create grey wardens you think they would have thought to write down. "Oh guys its gets back up in a new body if you kill it you need a grey warden, to kill it, which we didnt have but killed it anyway" Its an important point one that you think at least the wardens would want people to remeber - its their reason for being there after all.

Shazzie wrote...
How unneeded Grey Wardens are? The Archdemon is never actually *dead* until slain by a Grey Warden. When slain by anyone else, or at least when slain by anyone who hasn't overcome the taint (which would have been what the one who defeated the first one did), the Archdemon just picks up a new body and gets all Archdemony all over again. No plot hole there.

You made my point for the firrst blight there was no grey warden until aftter the first was dead. So eitther you dont really need a grey warden to do it or there are more ways than morrigans to get rid of the archdemon.

So we still have aplot hole

Modifié par Demigod, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:24 .

[Maria Caliban]

Demigod wrote...

But they would have had to kill more than one arch demon and that is not said anywhere. We are told they killed the first archdemon to end the blight not several.

We're told very little of what happened, only that there was a blight that lasted 90 years and the first Grey Wardens ended it by killing an archdemon. We're not given enough information to know exactly what was involved.

[Washell]

DarkSpiral wrote...

In the 900 years (is that the right number?) since the First Blight the Joining has become the initiation rite, obviously. 

We're in the 9th age of the Chantry's calendar. Andraste waged war on the Tevinter empire after the first Blight. The Chantry was founded on her teachings. Each age is a hundred years. The Calender postdates the first Blight or maybe slightly overlaps it if year zero is the year of Andraste's birth. So yes, it's been 900 years.

[P_k_r]

It was most probably left on purpose and the horrible secret ™ will be revealed in future expansions. Hey, there's no point in telling us everything just yet, right? They need to work with something in future releases.

Modifié par P_k_r, 05 décembre 2009 - 10:19 .

[soteria]

OP is trolling or incredibly dumb, and either way is not worth replying to.